Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Eric Frein Captured After 7-Week Manhunt; Future for Ferguson Police Chief in Question; Clowns Terrorize Neighborhoods

Aired October 31, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Dramatic developments overnight. An entire community can finally sleep easily knowing an alleged cop killer is in custody. The manhunt for Eric Frein lasted seven weeks. It cost millions of dollars and frayed a lot of nerves.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: So much tension. Frein, apparently, when he was captured was caught off guard, unarmed, in a field near an airport hangar. He apparently surrendered without a fight, so no drama from the suspect, but there were plenty within the arrest itself. Law enforcement didn't just put him in any handcuffs, they used the very handcuffs that belonged to the state trooper he is accused of killing, Bryan Dickson. He was driven away in Dickson's car.

BERMAN: A very personal arrest for law enforcement. And lots of raw emotion for people in the community. You can hear it as people cheered, law enforcement, and they jeered Frein when he was brought to court just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coward! You low life!

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill that trooper?

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah!

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You wouldn't make it in the military.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Wow. Frein is charged with first-degree murder. He is also accused of wounding trooper, Alex Douglas. Prosecutors say they do plan to pursue the death penalty.

PEREIRA: Let's bring in defense attorney, Page Pate. I think it's important to look at this one. I can't get over the

symbolism and the personal nature of this, Page. Using the dead officer's handcuffs, the car in the arrest. We know that there was something like 30 state troopers and other law enforcement officials in the room during hearing today. They took this very, very personally.

PAGE PATE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they did, and you can completely understand why. Wherever a law enforcement officer is killed or injured in the line of duty, they react. I mean, they react as a family. But it can go too far. I was involved in a murder case here in Georgia where the cops packed the courtroom for every court appearance for the defendant and eventually that case got reversed, because the presence of so many officers could be an influence on the jury. So I really think that, although I understand the emotions, I understand why they want to do this, they need back up and handle it by the book, because the more they make it personal, the more there's a chance this could later be overturned on appeal.

BERMAN: Page, it's so interesting that you say that, because I don't think I've ever heard something like using the handcuffs that the belonged to the deceased officer there.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: That seems like such a deliberate move. And, boy, I mean, can we all understand that the pain and anger among these law enforcement officials. But can it put their case at risk?

PATE: I think so. It's very weird, honestly, for them to have done that. And the more it becomes personal, the more they can make mistakes and they can let their feelings get in between what the law is and the procedural requirements, especially if it's a death penalty case. I mean, you really have to be careful because this case will be on appeal for perhaps a decade or more if he's convicted and sentenced to death.

PEREIRA: One has to wonder how this guy gets a fair trial. There will be those who say, "He doesn't deserve it but he gets a fair trial." That community is so on edge, traumatized by this event.

PATE: Right. You know, anybody can move for a change of venue. I think most judges, though, will wait and see just how pervasive the media coverage is as we get closer to trial. If this is going to be a death penalty case, we're not going to trial next week or next month or perhaps even next year.

PEREIRA: That's true.

PATE: So usually you'll let people come into the jury, you'll question them about their exposure to the case. And just because they've heard about it doesn't mean they're disqualified. They have to already have formed an opinion about the case. So I think we'll see when we get closer to trial.

PEREIRA: I feel there will be a lot of opinions. There have been. It's been a very difficult time for that community and glad to know that they can sleep well and the kids can go out trick-or-treating without fear and danger.

Thanks so much, Page.

PAGE: Thank you.

BERMAN: It's a fascinating succession of events since he was captured last night.

PEREIRA: Seven weeks.

BERMAN: It's not over just yet.

37 minutes after the hour. We're going to go to Ferguson, Missouri, the site of so much unrest, so much anxious over the last few weeks. We have the latest. The police chief speaks to CNN. Will he step aside? That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN.

BERMAN: This morning there are new questions about the future for Ferguson, Missouri, police chief, Thomas Jackson. He says he is not quitting, not going anywhere. That, despite reporting from CNN that he is on his way out, maybe not by choice. This, of course, comes months after Michael Brown, an unarmed African-American teenager, was shot and killed by a white police officer.

Listen to the new comments made to CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS JACKSON, CHIEF, FERGUSON POLICE DEPARTMENT: I report to the city manager, period. As long as he and the council support me, than I intend to stay. I certainly have the support of the police department and the community and a lot of support in the community. And I think this is my job to complete.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Some people say it would be better for the community, at large, to have a fresh new face heading up Ferguson Police Department.

JACKSON: I see that as dumping a huge problem in somebody else's lap and that's not my style.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: He says it's not his style, but government officials say they don't want him around anymore and whether he wants to go or not, they say he's got to go.

I want to bring in our Evan Perez. He first broke the story on all this pressure to put Chief Jackson -- to make him resign. It's interesting, Evan, we had the mayor speak to CNN few days ago and it was interesting the way he chose his words. He said, "We're not pushing him out, if he chooses to go that's on him." But it's not about choice, we just heard him. But it seems to be other pressure to make him resign. Will they do that?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, some of what the chief is saying is for public consumption. I'm sure none of us want to be pushed out of our jobs publicly. The hope was that the police chief would go quietly and would go on his own but he's been part of these discussions with state, county, federal officials and the decision has been made that the Ferguson Police Department will move ahead without him. The St. Louis County Police Department is handling a lot of the police work including the protests that are going to go on.

So I've met the chief. He's a nice man. It seems very well meaning. He didn't cause all these problems. This police department seems to have been messed up before he got there. It's probably not fair. He certainly doesn't think it's fair. But it is the fact that he's going to have to step aside for this department to move forward.

BERMAN: Evan, inside this interview with Jason Carroll, which was a fascinating interview with Thomas Jackson, he was also very critical of Attorney General Eric Holder. I'm wondering if you have been in touch with the attorney general's office.

PEREZ: They're not saying a lot. The feds, from their perspective, they want reform of the police department. And you heard the attorney general in his comments a couple days ago call for wholesale change of the police department. So I think that's pretty much all they're going to say about that. They are leaving it to the local officials, the state officials to handle this, but the message is clear, that part of the reform of the department will be without Tom Jackson at the leadership.

PEREIRA: Well, as Chief Jackson says, he wants that community to heal. Some are going to believe that they can only start healing without him there.

Evan Perez, thanks so much for your reporting. We appreciate it.

BERMAN: Ahead for us @THISHOUR, people dressed up as clowns, carrying weapons, assaulting people. This is no joke, folks. This is really happening. Happy Halloween.

PEREIRA: Well, that's a nice thought.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: The suspect in the killing of University of Virginia student, Hannah Graham, was arraigned in a separate 2005 sexual assault case. Officials read the charges against Jesse Matthew. He did not have a plea. Apparently, he did not have a court-appointed attorney with him. He appeared via video conference. There will be another hearing held in two weeks. Matthew is charged with abduction in the Hannah Graham case. Her remains were recently found on an abandoned farm.

BERMAN: So the rocket that exploded after takeoff earlier this week, it was deliberately destroyed, officials say, when it became apparent there was a problem with the launch. This thing was going to go down anyway. The company that operated the flight hit the destruct button. Experts say it was the right decision to prevent it from crashing into a populated area. The rocket was carrying 5,000 pounds of supplies for the international space station.

PEREIRA: An unprecedented number of children have crossed into the U.S. from Mexico this year after fleeing from violence in Guatemala. This week's "CNN Hero" is a teacher trying to battle that culture of violence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUAN PABLO ROMERO FUENTES, CNN HERO: My country's violent history has created a very violent presence. Gangs are every. Kids are exposed to drugs, to violence, and to the lack of opportunities for them to improve their lives.

I was a teacher in the same community that I grew up. My students were dealing with the same problems that I was dealing 20 years ago. I wanted to change that.

The best thing for me to do was open my house doors and bring them here.

(WHISTLING)

FUENTES: Eight years later, I'm still running the program in my family's house.

(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(SHOUTING)

FUENTES: We provide classes so they can find their own passions. We give them a decent plate of food.

(SHOUTING)

(APPLAUSE)

FUENTES: Children are powerful, they just they don't know that yet. So I created a safe place for them to realize that they actually can change their lives and their community.

(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

FUENTES: It's the only weapon we can have. It's love. I still believe that we can change this country. I see potential in kids and their ideas. They are the ones in charge of writing the new history in Guatemala.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PEREIRA: The only weapon we can have is love. That's powerful. So who will be CNN's hero of the year? You decide. Go to CNNheros.com to vote. You can vote once a day every day.

BERMAN: An absolutely wonderful group of people.

All right, ahead for us @THISHOUR, the very last thing you want to hear on Halloween, clowns. Bright and scary enough. How about this? People dressed as clowns turning criminal, assaulting people in some places. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Of course, being Halloween, there are going to be costume aplenty and a few clowns in the crowd. Clowns are the stuff of nightmares. It turns out, in fact, there people are capitalizing on that fear.

BERMAN: Yeah, what started out as a fun photography project has turned into something else completely different, with clowns terrorizing neighborhoods. This, folks, is nuts.

Stephanie Elam shows us what is going on.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (INAUDIBLE)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the popularity of "American Horror Story" demonstrates, clowns are associated with more than just children's parties and circuses. Ever since serial killer and part-time clown, John Wayne Gacy, was convicted of murdering 33 young men and boys in the 1970s, the image of the happy-go-lucky performers has turned increasingly more sinister.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I will kill you all.

ELAM: They've become some of our most widely used popular villains. From Stephen King's "It," to the horror classic, "Poltergeist," people love to be scared of clowns.

Psychotherapist John Tsilimparis explains the fascination.

JOHN TSILIMPARIS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You might say the painted expression of a clown makes it difficult to gauge what that person's emotions are, what the motives are.

ELAM: But now, the fears have become a reality. One sleepy southern California town turned into a media hot spot after one couples' photography project went viral in October.

SGT. JOE GRUBBS, BAKERSFIELD POLICE DEPARTMENT: They can quickly grow from a legal project, a photography project, to an urban legend.

ELAM: As Sergeant Joe Grubbs at the Bakersfield Police Department describes, the photos of a man dressed in clown posing around the small town of Wasko sent social media ablaze leading to a number of copycat pranks in neighboring towns.

Meanwhile, the real Wasko clown became a local celebrity.

(CHEERING)

ELAM: The events in and around Wasko inspired similar social media pranks in New Mexico and Florida, as shown in this video taken in Jacksonville.

Fueled my social media, the story has taken a dark turn as it spreads worldwide. French police have arrested multiple people dressed in clown costumes, some carrying deadly weapons, with others actually assaulting independent people.

But why clowns? Tsilimparis says it all comes down to an element of mistrust.

TSILIMPARIS: There's the quick movement and bright colors and put all of that together and, again, I don't know who that person is. That brings up fear.

ELAM: If the trend continues, the fear of clowns may claim more victims.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: I didn't have that fear of clowns until now.

Thanks very much, Stephanie Elam, joining us from L.A.

Joking aside, we saw what happened in France. Are police arresting people?

ELAM: Well, it's more of the crime of being super creepy and jumping out and scaring people. Not on the scale that we've seen in France, where they've gone so far, Michaela and John, that they are banning clown costumes of any sort for any adult in these small French town, because people there were actually assaulting people. So they are taking it way further than we are. What we've seen here, people with the sort of creepy little clowns posed in parts of town, that sort of thing. But in general, I ask you, does anyone actually like clowns or do we just tolerate them? They are freaky.

PEREIRA: I used to.

BERMAN: First of all, we apologize to the kids out there for the years of therapy.

(LAUGHTER)

We had a report a few months ago, Stephanie, since you brought it up, that the International Association of Clowns, the clown union, they say their membership is plummeting.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: They're taking a stand.

BERMAN: No, they can't fill the ranks of clowns. There are not enough of clowns in the world.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: No, I'm glad. I'm happy --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: The fact of the matter is they can't find people to be clowns because they are so stigmatized around the world, which I think you can understand, based upon what is happening.

Again, I'm curious, what do you arrest people for? You can't arrest people for just being creepy, unless they do something, right?

ELAM: No. And it was really like harassment or chasing somebody, some assaults, that sort of thing, dressed up as a clown. Part of the reason clowns are so spooky is because you don't know who is behind all of that face paint, the masks, the crazy hair. That's what makes them spooky. But you have to look back at John Wayne Gacy. Here was a man who was a clown -- that was his profession -- but then he was also a scary, sinister criminal as well. So the merging of those two entities together led to this the folklore.

PEREIRA: You guaranteed I won't sleep a wink tonight.

Stephanie Elam, thanks, dear. Happy Halloween.

ELAM: Love you. Happy Halloween.

PEREIRA: That's it for us @THISHOUR. I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman.

"LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.