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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Discussion of the Obama Administration; Latest on Michael Brown Grand Jury; Australian Criminal Incident Examined

Aired November 06, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: We're waiting the start of today's White House briefing, but the next big political events of this very eventful week is going to come tomorrow. It's three days after midterm elections that gave Republicans the Senate, in addition of the House. President Obama's going to sit down with congressional leaders of both parties to try to chart a course for the next two years. It could be a bumpy one, so buckle up. We got a preview yesterday from the President and incoming Senate Majority leader, Mitch McConnell, speaking separately of course.

And we do expect to hear from House speaker John Boehner about an hour from now as well. Mr. Boehner and Mr. McConnell, the co-authored a piece in today's Wall Street Journal that pledges, "Our priorities will be your priorities." Supposedly, those include reforming what the author call, "Insanely complex tax code." Repelling a "hopelessly flawed" health care law, green lighting the Keystone XL pipeline, and addressing "a savage" global terrorism threat.

So for his part, the President sends out an e-mail blast claiming, "I am eager to work with Congress over the next two years to get the job done. The challenges that lay ahead of us are far too important to allow partisanship or ideology to prevent our progress as a nation." OK. But in his news conference yesterday, he said he still plans to move on immigration reform, whether Congress likes it or not. In fact, he promised action this year before the new Congress even takes office.

On the (inaudible) thing to do list, immigration comes right after -- actually no, it's really -- it's just not there at all. Partisan (inaudible) is one thing, but my next guest says Barack Obama may end up "the most isolated president" since Richard Nixon.

Let that marinate for a moment as you look at David Rothkopf. He is the CEO and editor of Foreign Policy magazine, the author of the book "National Insecurity, American Leadership in an Age of Fear", and he's here with me now to talk about that.

I tease (ph) to break thing, ouch. That's mean. I mean that's -- isn't that a bit rough? Isn't that kind of piling on?

DAVID ROTHKOPF, FOREIGN POLICY MAGAZINE CEO & EDITOR: No. I don't think it -- look, the reputation in Washington is this the most president-centric administration ever. You know, he's the product, he's the messenger, he's the mission, he is the...

BANFIELD: But he's not

(CROSSTALK)

ROTHKOPF: No, no. And I didn't say he was...

BANFIELD: Come on.

ROTHKOPF: I didn't say he was. I didn't he say he was. He was just the center...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: You said the N word, you said to Nixon.

ROTHKOPF: Well, but Nixon was isolated because of other reasons. But he was isolated into himself. Obama, you know, started this during the campaign but didn't really shift mode. So now, he's isolated from some of his cabinet, his isolated from his party. You saw the, you know -- Harry Reid bashing him after or is Harry Reid's staff bashing him after...

BANFIELD: His staff who's on the way out.

ROTHKOPF: Right. But, you know, he took a shot. He's isolated from the Republicans and unusually for a U.S. president, he's isolated from world leaders. He doesn't have a lot of friends and networks out there. That's because he's been aloof, he's been in the bubble at the White House.

BANFIELD: Do you not think he tried and -- specifically with Boehner over immigration and it was a colossal failure and he would say and his supporters would say, it was Boehner who just would have no part of it?

ROTHKOPF: Absolutely. Look, this is an obstructionist Congress that didn't want to get anything done with Obama. And, you know, in terms of his isolation from the Hill, they deserve a lot of the responsibility. In terms of his isolation from the cabinet or from other world leaders, that's kind of on him. So it's a bit of a...

BANFIELD: So the world leader -- the world leader part, you know, he's coming in in the wake of two extraordinarily expensive and long wars in which the American public and all of those people on Capitol Hill who depend on money from the public and votes from public are also exhausted. How would the guy supposed to manage that? How is a guy supposed to be tough but not put any boots on the ground because America won't have any part of that? He seems to take all the blame from Congress who whistled out of a lot of the action themselves?

ROTHKOPF: I think he does, but look, we swung -- we overreacted under Bush and then Obama came in and I think he overreacted in the other direction. There is a...

BANFIELD: Yes. But he isn't getting (ph) whole pendulum? ROTHKOPF: Well, yes, he is. But there's a middle ground, you know.

There's a right way to do this. You mean you say no boots on the ground, there's no way to defeat ISIS without putting some boots on the ground. The rest of the coalition isn't doing it...

BANFIELD: But you ask America if they'll have any part of that and I'm not sure what the last statistic was, but it's somewhere around 70 percent or 80 percent of Americans who say absolutely not one American soul is to be committed to that effort over there.

ROTHKOPF: OK. We ask military leaders and they say there's no way to do it otherwise, and if you ask the American people in July of 1940, whether we should intervene in Europe, only 17 percent said that we did. Sometimes what presidents have got to do is lead. They've got to say, "We have a goal. This is the way to get there. It may not be comfortable but I've got to persuade you to get there." Just like when you have coalition, you've got to persuade them...

BANFIELD: So you take it on the chin publically and you do what considered to be a great thing. How are we not to know that what he's doing right now is so un-popular with his low, you know, popularity rating, but it might be actual the leadership that we need to stay out of that kind of business?

ROTHKOPF: Well, I mean I think we go and make adjustments...

BANFIELD: Legacies are build what, 20, 30 years down the road, aren't they?

ROTHKOPF: We may see how this works. My sense is that our problem with ISIS is you don't want them to establish an extremist state in the middle of the Middle East full of these foreign fighters and come back and cause us a problem. If we're not doing enough to stop that, and the administration says it's going to take six years, then we got to do more.

BANFIELD: Can he do anything at this point or is too late?

ROTHKOPF: He can. George Bush...

BANFIELD: You mean his phone call list that he called all these people after the election and saying...

ROTHKOPF: Well, that's...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: ... how is it going.

ROTHKOPF: But I got to say, every two-term president that we've had, the last three, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, they strengthen their act on foreign policy in their last two years. So Obama can do it. He's just got to recognize he got a problem to solve.

BANFIELD: OK. David Rothkopf it's good to see you, and your writing is terrific. I encourage everybody to have a look at it. I don't agree with everything but I think it's fascinating stuff and I think that's what we're all thinking at this point.

Nice to see you. Thanks for coming in.

ROTHKOPF: Nice you see you. Thank you.

BANFIELD: We also expect a live briefing from the White House a little later on in this hour, so there's your live look and as soon as the mic is live, we're going to take you there as well.

And another story that we've been following as well, the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. A judge was ordering the policemen at that town to change how they deal with the protesters, and we're likely days away from hearing what the grand jury has to say about everything to do with that shooting and whether there will be a case that comes out of it. Live from Ferguson in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: A grand jury could be just days away from deciding whether or not to indict Officer Darren Wilson for the shooting and killing of Michael Brown. And overnight, there were more protests regarding that shooting in Ferguson, Missouri. There were two arrests amid mostly peaceful demonstrators. Ferguson and other cities are bracing for potentially explosive protests if there is now indictment handed down. However, Ferguson agreed in a federal court order on Wednesday not to enforce any rule or policy that bans sidewalk protesters.

CNN's Sara Sidner joins me live now from Ferguson. So, Sara, set the stage for me in terms of the organization in preparation for when that moment comes because it's coming.

SARAH SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is. And we don't know if it's going to be mid- or late November as the prosecuting attorney has said, but everybody is talking about it and everyone is preparing for it, from the protesters to police, to the governor, and to the residents here in Ferguson and surrounding cities.

What we saw last night was really interesting, Ashleigh, because we noticed a difference in tone. There were about 100 or so protesters who came out for the 86th night of protest. And we notices something changed, yes they were in the streets, yes, they were blocking traffic at time, yes, two people were arrested, one for disturbing the peace, another for both disturbing the peace and the blocking the flow of traffic and resisting arrest. But for the majority, the people were peaceful walking through the streets and going into some of the neighborhoods with a large truck with a sign on it, a message to Governor Nixon about their concerns about this particular case.

But what we noticed at one point is that protestors all turned and started walking towards a store, a Walgreens, and one of the protesters said, "If you go into this store and you grab something and you don't pay for it, if you loot, if you do anything like that, you are not with us." We're noticing that the protesters are starting to police themselves in that way. There are people there that says that is not the message we want to send, we want to send the message that we want justice. And for them, that means seeing an indictment of Darren Wilson. Of course, the justice systems works at it does, the grand jury will ultimately make that decision. But there's a lot of still frustration between the police and the protesters and as you might imagine, you know, this has been a very difficult time for both because they're up every single night and as I said, yesterday was the 86th night. The police put out a list of all the things that happened and the protester often say that that list does not show the true reality of what's going on in the ground when the protest are mostly peaceful.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right. Sara Sidner reporting for us, live. Thank you for that.

A group that's called, "The Don't Shoot Coalition" is hoping to prevent the kind of violence that Sara was talking about from breaking out in Ferguson after decision is handed down, by asking that law enforcement adhere to some specific rules that are meant to demilitarize the police in Ferguson. The Ferguson police have met with the coalition to define "some common goals".

Joining me to talk about the coalition's proposed rules and whether they could help diffuse this potential powder keg are CNN's legal analyst Paul Callan and Sunny Hostin.

First and foremost, that all sounds great when you see, look this is terrific, the community, the police coming together to put together some kind of a plan, that sounds great. Until I read some of those proposed rules and I started to think who's policing who? Hold on a second here, this organization has already said it's going to encourage civil disobedience but at the same time -- and let me just read a couple of a rules for you. Let's pop the first of few, it's recommending that 48 hour advanced notice before the grand jury decision is announced. That police give the protesters this 48 hour advance notice.

I'm not sure that's in the best interest of anybody because that just sets the stage for it to get really ugly and to get going earlier than maybe proposed. Pop up the next rule as well and this has to do with how the police are going to be dressed. Police will wear only the attire minimally required for their safety. Specialize riot gear will be avoided except as a last resort. Crowd-control equipment like armored vehicle, rubber bullets, rifles and tear gas will not be used.

We had places that were burned down, we had people who were injured, we had officers who had things thrown at them like full water bottles, glass bottles, et cetera. How can protesters make these kinds of demands realistically when there is a the potential for like the L.A. riots to break out. Paul, let's start with you.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, it's not unusual for when you have mass demonstrations for people to try to work out an agreement in advance. The marches on Washington, again, you know, where Civil Rights marches against the Vietnam War, there were soft of a framework agreement that you'll be in certain areas and we're going to provide food and -- you know, just to try to keep it under control. That's a good idea and I'm glad to see that there's been a start in this process.

But, some of these things, they're just -- you know, they don't make sense and the police can't agree with them. I mean I think I understand they want 48 hours notice before a grand jury indictment is announced, it has to be announced publically at some point so it's not illegal to do that, but is that going to increase the size of the crowd because they know precisely when it comes down.

I'm not so concerned about some of the other ones that you spoke about but there is a provision here, at number 11, they want safe houses where people who, theoretically, have committed crimes can hide out and not be arrested by the police.

BANFIELD: Let me read that. Safe houses shall be considered sacred ground, and only entered by police when called upon or if extremely necessary. Look, there are criminals in these, there are bad elements who have to these riots, and we've seen that. We've seen interlopers coming in and making trouble. Should we be giving them safe houses?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Look, I think that Paul is right. That this is a start, that this is appropriate and I think the people protesting and trying to change some of the problems that has occurred is very American. We're talking about community activism, we're talking about community organizing. So this is something that I think we should embrace.

I have looked at many of these of rules of engagement that were proposed. I don't think that they are so off the mark quite frankly, in light of the type of activity that we have seen from the police department...

BANFIELD: Do you think they should be allowed to throw things at the police?

HOSTIN: Well, I don't think...

BANFIELD: No, no. Yes or no?

HOSTIN: No. I don't think they're suggesting that though...

BANFIELD: They are. Police will be instructed to be tolerant of more minor law breaking such as throwing water bottles when deciding whether to...

HOSTIN: Well, I don't think that it's appropriate for some of the actions that we've seen from the police. The police...

BANFIELD: No. But this is an action from the protest. They want to be able to throw water bottles.

HOSTIN: Yes, Ashleigh, but, again, remember what happened to our very own Don Lemon when he was shoved out of the way.

BANFIELD: Don wasn't throwing water at anybody. HOSTIN: Remember what happened to many of the protesters that were peacefully protesting which is their constitutional right, which means...

BANFIELD: And they earned it court. They've earned that right in court.

HOSTIN: Exactly. And so I think...

BANFIELD: But throwing water bottles? They want the right to do that?

HOSTIN: I'm not saying that that is appropriate but I'm saying in light of what we have seen from this police department, the lack of transparency, all of these leagues (ph), quite frankly the way that they're handling this grand jury process which is unfathomable and unheard of, these are the types of rules of engagement quite frankly in scenarios that we have to consider we have to talk about.

BANFIELD: Let me ask, Paul is the big list? I mean this is a negotiation who come in real hard and hope to come back with like, I don't know half or three-quarters...

(CROSSTALK)

CALLAN: I don't know because, you know, 19 for instance, they're trying to have a pre-agreement on bond on the setting of bail in these cases. Do you think a judge is going to say, "Well, all right, I'm not going to set bail in your case because you made an agreement with the cops." That's the judiciary. They're not going to agree to that.

My point also is that the group doing the demonstrations in Ferguson is a big diverse group. You may have responsible civil rights activist who sincerely want this to be non-violent, to send a proper message, and I have...

(CROSSTALK)

CALLAN: I don't know who's taking the poll on it but I know that there are many other who have participated who are anarchists and who want to cause trouble...

BANFIELD: And aren't from there. They're not from there.

CALLAN: May be not even from Ferguson. They're not going to be bound by this agreement...

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: ... but I want to keep this conversation going because you mentioned Don Lemon and I was never more angry in seeing Don Lemon trying to do a peaceful report and being shoved...

HOSTIN: And that's why these types of rules of engagements are important to me because...

BANFIELD: Water bottles throwing...

HOSTIN: But you have to consider all the scenarios.

BANFIELD: You're going to agree with me, aren't you? You can't throw a bottle of water at cops.

HOSTIN: I would agree with that but you have to also consider all of the scenarios...\

(CROSSTALK)

CALLAN: It's called the law. We already have laws that they understand.

BANFIELD: All right guys. Paul Callan, Sunny Hosting. Fantastic and you're going to have to be on the panel when all of this happens, too.

We're going to expect that White House briefing live any moment. Quick break, back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: OK. Get set to this. You're about to a new story that is really so terrifying you may forget to breathe for a moment.

A man desperate and covered in blood shoves a gun into a cameraman's face and then drives off in his T.V. van, but you got to see what happened before and after that. This is in Eastern Australia and there is a shooting and a police chase and a car crash, and all of it is caught on camera.

Here is reporter Carly Waters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLEY WATERS, 7NEWS REPORTER: These is the moment, the interview when the armed men gives himself up to 7News cameraman, Peter Steer.

JULES BROOK, SUSPECT: Yes. My name is Jules Brook. I'm -- police. And I've done an extremely bad thing.

WATERS: With blood on his hands, he asks Peter to call police.

BROOK: I just want to know if she's all right...

PETER STEER, 7NEWS CAMERAMAN: OK. You got to talk to me. It's Peter Steer from Channel 7. There's been a shooting and there's -- I have the shooter with me.

BROOK: Yes. And so...

STEER: He's giving himself up to me.

WATERS: Brook was on a Harley Davidson when he held down Peter that was on his way to the incident. BROOK: I surrender myself to God.

(OFF-MIKE)

WATERS: He told Peter he was the person police were looking after allegedly injuring a woman at a house in (inaudible).

STEER: No. He looks very tired but he's pretty (inaudible). He want (inaudible) and he's a lot like -- he said (inaudible).

WATERS: The cameraman kept him calm and kept up conversations for almost half an hour. He called police a second time.

STEER: It's very important. It's extraordinarily important. I have the person that you're looking for.

BROOK: I feel like a coward. You know, I kill -- I couldn't fight the devil.

WATERS: But as Brook was sitting on the ground, he changed his mind about surrendering. Smiling, he pointed a gun at Peter.

BROOK: God be -- idiot. God be -- idiot, mate.

WATERS: Mate, don't be silly. Don't be silly.

BROOK: And stole his 7News car.

STEER: He was more than willing at first, too. You know, I got -- quietly. But I suppose something tweaked in his mind that now I'll do this in a big way.

WATERS: Police picked up Peter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Channel 7 cameraman (inaudible) here, explaining -- and he's got hijacked by the gunman. He does have a firearm?

STEER: He does. He says it's a red...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he is heading south, through back towards (inaudible) in a Channel 7 car.

WATERS: Brook drove straight to a nearby service station, Dindi's (ph). Another of Peter's cameras mounted inside captured the moment he crashed into a sign then plunged (ph) into a gas tank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground now. Get on the ground. Get on the ground.

STEER: I doubt (ph) that he had a weapon at that time but he moved pretty about straight over to the gas bottles and anything could have happened from there because you could hear gas leaking.

WATERS: The man was taken into custody but the drama didn't end there. The leaking tank contains 7,000 liters of gas, firefighters was called in, streets were locked down for hours. Guy Elston (ph) was at the service station.

GUY ELSTON (ph): And he just walked up to me purposefully. And looked in me in the eyes and asked me for a cigarette lighter.

WATERS: He says Brook tried to get inside.

ELSTON (ph): And he took about 5 steps back and took a run and jump, head first at the doors. Pretty well knocked him unconscious.

WATERS: Later today, Brook was charged with a number of offenses including attempted murder. Peter Steer has been a news cameraman since 1980.

STEER: I wanted to get that shot of him with the gun but I didn't want to get shot.

WATERS: A man who normally records the news is now making it.

STEER: For a cameraman, I guess it's -- it was sort of the stuff that you sort of dream (ph) about I guess. You know, so, yes, I'm fine. I'm fine, I just need a big drink.

WATERS: Carly Waters, 7News.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: A big drink, that's it. Way to go, Peter. Thanks for watching everyone. Wolf starts right now.