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Don Lemon Tonight
America's Marijuana Obsession; Is Pot Gateway to Using Hard Drugs?; Prep School Teacher in Prison for Abuse, Molestation; NYC to Change Its Policy on Pot Possession
Aired November 10, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
You're looking live now. New York City, where the rules are changing when it comes to marijuana. Pretty soon people are going to start getting tickets instead of being arrested for pot possession.
Well, you know I'm not unfamiliar with marijuana, and a lot of you watching right now could probably say the same thing. But in the wake of pro-pot votes in Alaska, Oregon, and D.C. last week are we getting ahead of ourselves? Is weed spreading too fast?
And speaking of changing the rules, there's news on another topic we talked about a lot, and that's the N word. The NFL wants to ban the word on the field. But is it realistic? Who can say it and who decides?
Plus a former Baltimore Ravens cheerleader charged with sexually abusing a 15-year-old boy. Adult women preying on teenagers. Is it happening more often or are we just hearing about it more?
We've got a whole lot to get to tonight but I want to begin with America's marijuana obsession.
CNN's Miguel Marquez joins me with that -- Miguel.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello there, Don. Look, if you want to know where pot is going in this country, by 2019 about 17 states it is expected it may have recreational pot on the books. And if you want to know where all of that is going, well, follow the money. That's just what we're doing here in Vegas.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ (voice-over): The business of pot isn't waiting for laws to catch up. Here in Las Vegas investigators taking a risk for possibly huge returns as the cannabis industry is moving fast to capture a market just emerging from the shadows.
(On camera): So this is Troy Dayton. You're the CEO and co-founder of ArcView Group, which has invested in marijuana businesses for some time.
How is this business growing? TROY DAYTON, CEO, ARCVIEW GROUP: Well, in 2013 our research arm put
this at a $1.5 billion industry, the legal cannabis market, growing to a $2.6 billion industry this year. That's a 68 percent increase.
MARQUEZ: Sixty-eight, and you see that going on in years?
DAYTON: Absolutely. Yes, I mean, you will not find another industry growing at this clip.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Businesses like David Hua and his Meadow Care app, operating for now only in California.
(On camera): How does it work?
DAVID HUA, CEO, MEADOW CARE: We'll choose Vapor Room. The menu loads up. You choose from flowers, topicals --
MARQUEZ: So I want -- I want a quarter ounce of mob boss.
HUA: All right. We'll get a quarter of mob boss. Let's do that. And then once you're done you check out and you place your order.
MARQUEZ: And then how soon before it shows up at your door?
HUA: An hour. Hour or less.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Companies extracting oil from cannabis among the most popular with the concentrated oil used in everything from medicine to vaporizers to candy.
(On camera): How big has your company gotten?
AC BRADDOCK, CEO, EDEN LABS: This last year we've grown 400 percent.
MARQUEZ: Four hundred percent?
BRADDOCK: Yes. We'll grow twice that much next year, definitely.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): And today's edibles not your dorm room pot brownies.
MATTHEW COTE, AUNTIE DOLORES: Our most popular product is the savory pretzels because people expect a brownie, they expect sweet, they expect sort of a snack food. Our pretzels are not going to impact your sugar. They're not going to be unhealthy. They're something you can eat every day.
MARQUEZ: Businesses here just the tip of the green iceberg. In Oregon and Alaska, the two newest states whose voters said yes to recreational pot on Election Day, ArcView conducted its own market research. In those two states alone in just the first year the estimated take of recreational pot, about $277 million. Tax revenue estimated about $30 million.
Marijuana acceptance becoming law of the land. Twenty-three states plus the District of Columbia now allow medical marijuana. Eleven more allow specific types of medical marijuana in limited cases.
On the recreational side marijuana legal in Colorado and Washington, now approved and coming to Alaska, Oregon, and D.C. In 2016 five more states will have pot legalization propositions on the ballot. By 2019 the possibility in 17 states and D.C., buying a joint as easy as buying a beer.
MASON TVERT, MARIJUANA POLICY PROJECT: Public support for changing our marijuana laws is growing very rapidly. It's just a matter of time before we see enough states take this on and potentially see the federal government take this on.
MARQUEZ: What the pot industry wants most, banking laws changed so they can operate like any other business. That would take an act of Congress and a presidential signature. A tall order for a federal government which has so far decided not to partake.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ: Now businesses, investors, and states are moving rapidly ahead. New York sort of crawling into it, I suppose. Today New York City announcing that they were going to lower the fines or the problems that one has if you're caught busted, smoking it out on the streets. Rather than getting jailed and, you know, handcuffs and taken downtown, you just get a ticket and that would not put -- give those young individuals a record going forward.
So some good news out of New York for individuals who use marijuana there -- Don.
LEMON: Yes. You get a ticket and summons to go to court, if you can remember to do it.
Miguel Marquez, thank you very much. Appreciate that.
Now I want to bring in the former police commissioner of New York, Bernard Kerik, Neill Franklin, a retired Maryland state police major and executive director of LEAP, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, and Peter Bensinger, a former DEA administrator under Presidents Ford, Carter, and Reagan.
So I want to go to Bernie first.
Bernie, you know we -- you heard what Miguel said. New York City officers now will ticket rather than arrest people for small amounts of marijuana. You're the former police commissioner of New York. What do you think of this?
BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: I think it's the right thing to do and here's why. Realistically, cops were able to give summonses for joints and small amounts in the past. It's at their discretion. I think what Bratton is trying to do is make it, this is going to be the policy.
And look, you have shootings in New York, you have violence in New York, you have other things going on. I personally would rather have those cops out there aggressively attacking crime than BS-ing around with small amounts of marijuana.
LEMON: Peter, do you think that the change of policy is a mistake? You do. Why?
PETER BENSINGER, FORMER DEA ADMINISTRATOR: I do because I think we're messing with the laws that are on the books. And I think really the question in America is, do you want more or fewer people smoking marijuana?
Marijuana is against the law -- federal law. It's against the law in almost every other country. And what's happening is the mayor and his police chief have decided they're going to change what is on the books in New York state and they're not going to make misdemeanor arrests.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Peter, with all due respect, I don't think that's what they're saying. And if you listen to the story that was before this, we were wondering if --
BENSINGER: I heard the story.
LEMON: -- many states and places around the country are beginning to accept medical and legal marijuana. And so what they're saying is --
BENSINGER: And why do you think that is?
LEMON: They're not changing prosecution of it. They're just changing how they deal with it. Rather than taking someone to jail immediately, they give them a ticket to appear in court.
LEMON: The reason you've invited me on the program, this is a very important subject. Most of the states that have passed this so-called recreational marijuana have done it because they've been funded by very rich people with $6 million in the state of Washington. Three million in the state of Colorado, 20-1 in Alaska. And the people that oppose this aren't putting up that money in advertisements, billboards, public information.
The National Institute on Drug Abuse says this, marijuana is addictive. It's not safe as medicine. In Colorado the fourth graders are selling pot in elementary school. And the arrests in the nation's prisons, they're not tens of thousands of people in jail or prison for the use or possession of marijuana.
LEMON: OK. All right.
BENSINGER: Out of a million people, a million three in prison, less than 1/3 of 1 percent are there for the use of possession --
LEMON: All right. I want to get to Neil --
BENSINGER: And no one should get arrested in New York. Commissioner Kerik will be able to comment on this.
LEMON: OK. BENSINGER: Those who get arrested also are arrested in conjunction
with other crimes.
LEMON: All right, Peter, we don't have a lot of time here. I want to get my other guests in.
Neill, not to -- sorry to cut you off.
Neill, I want to get you in here. You want to respond to what he had to say. Go ahead.
NEILL FRANKLIN, RETIRED MARYLAND STATE POLICE MAJOR: Yes, look, alcohol prohibition was also against the law, but it was one of the best things we did when we ended it. Now that was done state by state, just like we're doing with marijuana today. My home state of Maryland never supported alcohol prohibition.
Now, look, thank goodness for the voters. The voters have decided that enough is enough, enough of arresting so many people. An arrest is all it takes to destroy someone's life today with the technology that we have. Every arrest for the most part goes into a data base where anyone can find out the information regarding the arrest.
And as for our young kids, selling marijuana in school? That's because of prohibition. Drug dealers hire, recruit, coerce our young people into working for them, dropping out of school and selling marijuana.
You know, look, young people can go into school, they go into school every day, and they sit in a classroom. An adult cannot go into a classroom, cannot go into a school and sell anything. But when you have kids enrolled in school who are hired by drug dealers, that's when the marijuana --
BENSINGER: These aren't hired by drug dealers.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Go ahead, Peter.
BENSINGER: Fourth graders selling to each other. And also this question about prohibition and alcohol. This is not a good comparison. If you want to have people --
FRANKLIN: It's an excellent comparison.
BENSINGER: No. Fifty percent of Americans drink alcohol. Twenty- seven percent smoke. Nine percent use marijuana. And the reason they don't use that much is because there's a legal sanction against it. If you want to open it up and let there be no sanction and people arrested can get those arrests erased, expunged --
FRANKLIN: Look, here's the deal. Here's the deal.
BENSINGER: -- by going to court --
(CROSSTALK)
FRANKLIN: The marijuana industry does exist --
LEMON: Hang on, Neill. Let him finish and then you can respond.
BENSINGER: -- and they can get their arrest expunged.
LEMON: OK.
BENSINGER: They can stay off marijuana. And it's not a question of just the arrest record.
LEMON: Let him respond. Go ahead, Neill.
FRANKLIN: Look, like it or not, the marijuana industry does exist. It has existed for more than decades. It will exist tomorrow. The question is, who's going to regulate it? Who's going to control the industry? If you think the drug dealers are currently doing a great job, if you think that the cartels are doing just a wonderful job in recruiting our children into this business and wreaking the havoc that they do in our communities, if you think they're doing such a great job, then let it stay that way.
LEMON: OK.
FRANKLIN: But I personally think that we should take control of the industry and regulate it. That's the best thing we can do.
LEMON: OK. Is that possible, Bernie -- hang on. Hang on, Peter.
Bernie Kerik, is that possible, what he's saying --
BENSINGER: In Colorado, they try to regulate --
LEMON: Peter, let me -- there are other guests on the --
BENSINGER: I just want to make one point.
LEMON: There are other guests on the program.
BENSINGER: I want to make one point. The cartels are selling the drugs in Colorado, not the regulated legal shops.
LEMON: OK.
BENSINGER: They're cheaper than the regulated shops. And that's who's selling the pot in Colorado after legalization.
LEMON: All right, Bernie, go ahead.
BENSINGER: The regulators have not won.
LEMON: Peter, please. There are other people on the panel. They have make points. Go ahead, Bernie.
KERIK: I couldn't hear your question. Go ahead. LEMON: Yes. So let's talk about what he said, that we should
regulate it some way instead of having kids going into schools because it's unregulated and having people recruit people perhaps in his estimation that it should somehow be regulated. Is that possible?
KERIK: It is possible. But I've got to go back to one thing. Nobody changed the laws in New York City. The laws didn't change. The law didn't change in the state. It's the processing of the arrest. That's what's changed. And the processing is going to be more expedient. It's going to be faster. It's going to be quicker. And it's going to keep cops on the street enforcing the law and going after violent criminals instead of running around chasing people smoking pot. So the laws did not change.
BENSINGER: They're not doing that now.
KERIK: Nothing changed in New York City.
LEMON: Go ahead, Peter.
BENSINGER: They're not going around chasing people smoking pot. That's not happening. The police commissioner --
FRANKLIN: We're arresting -- we're arresting 600,000 people every year in this country for marijuana possession. So we are chasing them. We are wasting time doing that. And it's a big problem for law enforcement. It's a huge distraction for law enforcement.
LEMON: Peter, as Bernie said -- and as Bernie and Neill are saying, they don't think that they have the manpower to deal with this. There are other issues that are more important.
BENSINGER: There are probably less than a handful of people in Rikers Island or the Cook County jail simply there for the possession or use of marijuana. Arrests, yes. Lots of them. But they're made in conjunction with other criminal investigations. With traffic cops the reduced charges from --
FRANKLIN: That's not true. That's not true.
LEMON: OK.
BENSINGER: Well, you're saying that.
FRANKLIN: The ACLU didn't --
LEMON: I've got to run, guys. Thank you very much. Thanks, Bernie. Thanks, Neill.
FRANKLIN: And it's arrests --
LEMON: Thanks, Peter. I appreciate all of you joining me this evening. We'll continue this conversation.
We have got much more to come on America's marijuana obsession. As you can see, it gets pretty heated. Our Dr. Drew Pinsky says marijuana is addictive and can be a lot more
dangerous than you think. He is here with me tonight.
Plus a former cheerleader accused of sexually abusing a 15-year-old boy. Do we see abuse differently if women are the perpetrators?
And also the NFL and the N word. Who decides what you can and cannot say?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Americans' attitudes about marijuana changing. But is pot use a gateway to experimenting with harder drugs?
Dr. Drew Pinsky is an expert on addiction and he is the host of HLN's "DR. DREW ON CALL."
Good evening, sir. Did you see that conversation before? Man, oh man.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST, HLN'S "DR. DREW ON CALL": I did. Yes. And it's -- you know, the drug marijuana inspires passions on all sides. It's really rather extraordinary. I've never seen anything like it. And to the point where I can't even have any kind of rational conversation about what I've observed clinically without getting --
LEMON: Yes.
PINSKY: Boy, my Twitter feeds just get -- go light up with me being attacked for how dare I say something that in any way besmirches the implication that somehow pot is anything other than healthy and wonderful.
LEMON: I was just sharing my -- some of my Twitter exchanges with the folks in the studio and we were having a good laugh about what they said, right? Yes.
So listen, you know, you've said that marijuana can be extremely addictive. So clear this up for us. Addictive? It's a gateway drug?
PINSKY: Yes. Well, the gateway, those are two separate issues. The addiction is, I am not here saying that marijuana's going to be addictive to everybody. Certainly not. And no more so, maybe even less so than alcohol. Alcohol is -- let's remind ourselves, alcohol in terms of the impact on the health of this country vastly, vastly --
LEMON: Alcohol more dangerous you say? Or more addictive?
PINSKY: Well, and people forget, alcohol is carcinogenic. The withdrawal from alcohol is the only drug withdrawal that is commonly fatal. It affects more people. It affects more of us. It is easy to become an alcoholic the way our culture endorses alcohol. So I mean, I'm not saying that we need another problem in cannabis. I just -- I don't think -- the idea that a good drug and a bad drug, that whole notion is completely flawed in my opinion. It's just humans and how the human biology interacts with these
molecules that cause certain motivational disturbances and states. Some is a pleasant component and the other is this drive disorder we call addiction. And it's just simply a fact that I have treated marijuana addiction very commonly.
LEMON: But, Doctor.
PINSKY: In Colorado, where it's now legal, you're seeing an increase in referrals for treatment for cannabis as a primary and secondary drug. It's just a fact.
LEMON: OK. So the question, as you say, we don't need one more. And I understand what you're saying. But --
PINSKY: I didn't say we should -- listen, I'm not saying people shouldn't decide what the laws are. That's up to the people. I'm just saying to use one problem to fend another is a mistake.
LEMON: I understand that.
PINSKY: It just -- yes, go ahead.
LEMON: I get you. So then why is one legal and the other one not legal? Alcohol versus marijuana.
PINSKY: I would say that's bizarre in my opinion. That's completely bizarre. That we have -- that goes under the heading of there being good drugs and bad drugs, which is simply not true. Tobacco is good and cannabis is bad? That's anathema. That's not a fact. That's just simply ridiculous.
So our laws are kind of bizarre as they pertain to substances. But you know, I'm not sure that I want -- the fact that it's illegal does help me help those patients that do have problems controlling their relationship with cannabis.
LEMON: OK.
PINSKY: And it is for some people, they love it. They just love it. And it becomes very problematic for them when they start having side effects from its use. It usually takes many years before people start to have trouble with it. Some people don't. They just continue on using.
LEMON: OK.
PINSKY: But when they love the drug, they fall in love with it very quickly. Usually after the second or third exposure. And they preoccupy about it from that point on --
LEMON: All right. Let me get in here.
PINSKY: -- and eventually down the line the effects start wearing off.
LEMON: All right. Because -- since I have you here I want you to weigh in on something else. OK.
PINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: This is another story that's in the headlines. A woman -- women that are now being charged with sexual abuse of teenage boys.
Here's CNN's Jean Casarez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Who can forget these faces? Mary Kay Letourneau and Debra LaFave. Both teachers. Both married. And both having sexual relations with their teenage students.
LaFave pleaded guilty to having sex with a 14-year-old boy.
DEBRA LAFAVE, CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: My greatest regret would probably be the fact that I put this young man through this.
CASAREZ: Letourneau convicted of raping her student Vili Fulau. Following a prison sentence the two married.
Beautiful women preying on boys. And now we allegedly have another one.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Miss Shattuck, may we speak to you?
CASAREZ: Former Baltimore Ravens cheerleader Molly Shattuck is facing rape charges, unlawful sexual contact and providing alcohol to a minor for allegedly having sex with a 15-year-old boy at a beach house in Delaware Labor Day weekend.
Shattuck is recently divorced and well known in some circles, having published a book entitled "Vibrant Living," promoting a healthy lifestyle. Allegedly she contacted her victim through her own son. She has pleaded not guilty.
MARCI HAMILTON, LAW PROFESSOR: She's just a classic example. She is no different than an abusing priest, an abusing rabbi, or a parent.
CASAREZ: So are more women committing sexual crimes with minors, or are we just hearing about it more? It could boil down to more young male victims gaining courage to speak out.
HAMILTON: It was a time when everybody just pretended this isn't really a problem.
CASAREZ: But there is a problem. Experts say a profile of these women may show they are lonely, want to control someone, and want a lot of attention. But sexual relations between a minor and an adult women is a serious crime.
HAMILTON: There was a time when boys would have been told, you know, they were lucky they got to be with an older woman. CASAREZ: But do beautiful women sexual offenders get a better deal
than their male counterparts? Many believe that's the case. LaFave's attorney seemed to sum it up best.
JOHN FITZGIBBONS, LAFAVE'S ATTORNEY: To place an attractive young woman in that kind of hellhole is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions.
CASAREZ: LaFave was given seven years probation. But notoriety for life.
LAFAVE: As you can see, my face has been plastered on every Internet address, every news outlet.
CASAREZ: And if attention is one motivator for these women, their names can become household words. Letourneau even had her own lifetime movie. "All American Girl." But is it worth the ultimate title for some? Registered sex offender.
Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. So here's Dr. Drew again.
So, Dr. Drew, Molly Shattuck is the latest one of these cases to grab the headlines. She's 47 years old. Allegedly made sexual advances on a 15-year-old friend of her son.
PINSKY: Right.
LEMON: Is it about sex? Is it more -- is it power? Is it a psychological issue? What's going on here?
PINSKY: Well, in my experience when I've had to deal with female perpetrators, more often than not they themselves were sexually abused in their childhood as well. So that issue kind of feeds into this.
But I think there's something more important to remember here, Don. In Jean's a little piece there she didn't point out why this is such a harmful crime. This harms these young males. Our culture as that law professor pointed out used to say oh, these boys are lucky.
Well, the facts are, and they are facts, these boys have more psychiatric problems, more depression, more suicide, more substance abuse, more personality disorders, more anti-social behavior. They are profoundly affected by these experiences. So they don't believe they do, and oftentimes they don't realize the impact it's had on them until years and years later.
So these young males need to be protected just as -- from these perpetrators just as much as we would wish to protect a young female.
LEMON: All right. Dr. Drew, we're going to get our money's worth out of you tonight. So stick with us.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
LEMON: Up next, are cases involving female sexual predators rare, or are there a lot of them that go unreported? And our male victims more reluctant to come forward? We'll get some answers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Cases like that of Molly Shattuck, the woman you just heard of, former NFL cheerleader accused of abusing a 15-year-old boy. They are shocking but how common are they?
Let's talk about now with Roger Kenneth, who's an anti-violence advocate and child protection specialist. Also Mel Robbins is here, a CNN commentator and legal analyst. And Dr. Drew Pinsky is back with us.
So, we're hearing there are more cases. We've heard about so many cases of sexual female predators lately. Are there more of them or just are we hearing about more? And I say that I preface that, I want to ask that to you, Roger, because, we just got a press release from Gloria Allred saying that she's going to hold a press conference tomorrow. She represents five young men who were abused by their teacher. The teacher is already in prison for molesting some of the boys. This is at Grand Rapids University Preparatory Academy. How common is this?
ROGER CANAFF, ANTI-VIOLENCE ADVOCATE AND CHILD PROTECTION SPECIALIST: I'd say it's very common, and honestly, Don, I don't believe that the numbers are getting higher. I just believe it's being reported more and perceived more. Sexual abuse, whether of males or females by males or by females is something that has ridden the tide of humanity for millennia. It has always been there. There's no rhyme or reason. It's cross-cultural. It has nothing to do with socioeconomic status or ethnicity or anything. From time to time within the human population individuals arise that seek to harm children sexually. It's just the way it is. So I do not believe that we are seeing any more of it particularly. I just think we perceive it more. And that's -- and those are good things, actually. It's because, the stigma upon victimization is lowering. It's because, there are more children, particularly males, who are willing to come forward and state that they've been victimized or admit it.
LEMON: That wasn't always the case, though, right?
CANAFF: Absolutely.
LEMON: Males were more reluctant to come forward.
CANAFF: Correct, correct, particularly males.
LEMON: So Mel, have a field day with cases like Shattuck's, the 15- year-old boy being abused by -- having sex with an adult. I mean, if true though, right? Is this a case of child abuse?
MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR AND LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's a case of rape, Don. I mean, the age of consent in Delaware is 18. And they do have some of the so-called Romeo and Juliet laws that say that if you're a minor and you're engaged in consensual sexual activity with somebody that is within four years of your age, you can legally consent. But this is a woman, Don, who was 32-years older than this kid and based on some of the facts being reported clearly went after him. So, this is not a case of statutory rape but of a predator that went after a kid. She's in a position of power, she's got a lot of money, she's buying the kid beer, she's taking him for the weekend, it's...
LEMON: But Mel?
ROBBINS: Yes.
LEMON: But you know, I do and I said comics have a field day because most people will say, what most guys will say, man, when I was 15, I wish I -- you know, was as lucky -- Dr. Drew, you know, you mentioned that a little bit earlier. I'll let you weigh in. But Mel, you understand the mentality of most -- that's the male mentality.
ROBBINS: Well, I think that is the male mentality of about a decade ago. And I agree 100 percent with what Roger was saying, and I agree with what Dr. Drew was saying in your previous segment, that the more people talk about this and they realize that one out of six boys and one out of four girls are the victims of either molestation or some kind of sexual assault before they're an adult, the more that people are going to come forward, Don.
LEMON: So clearly, Dr. Drew, we're talking about there is a double standard in terms of how we perceive female sex offenders. Wouldn't we react differently if the predator was a 47-year-old man instead of a 47-year-old woman?
DR. DREW PINSKY, DR.DREW ON CALL HOST: We absolutely, absolutely we do. And the point I think all three of us are trying to make is that we should not, because the impact on the victim is potentially just as deleterious. In the past, we sort of looked the other way or because of the male motivational system assumed, well, he's being gratified in some way, but the reality is he's being shattered in fact and the trajectory of his development is being derailed and he will realize it years later. He will sometimes feel lucky when he's 15. At 25, not so much, and I want to take quick issue with what Roger said, the problem with sexual abuse in the last 20 or 30 years, I have seen it expand. And it feels to me like when somebody's a perpetrator they don't perpetrate on one child. They perpetrate on many. And a certain percentage of those are going to become perpetrators. Unfortunately, that's just the way it works. So it has an exponential growth built into it. And I think after the so-called sexual revolution we unleashed a certain amount of this, in a way we had not seen before.
LEMON: Yeah, you know, Jean Casarez said in her story before this, they are victims, right? But we should say that Shattuck denies all the charges here. Is the penalty the same under the law for women and men? First to Roger --
ROBBINS: Yes.
LEMON: Go ahead, Mel, since you answered.
ROBBINS: Yes, yes, it is the same. But whether or not a judge sentences somebody to the same conviction is, is, you know, a kind of left up to the judge's distraction. I looked at some of the recent cases, Don, in Delaware. There was a guy that was convicted of very similar charges that was, you know, sentenced to 25 years. A woman convicted of those charges in 2007 was convicted to three years. So, there is a difference in terms of how judges treat them, and just one more thing to Dr. Drew's point. One of the things about predators is it's about access, and technology in the fact that so many kids have Smartphones.
LEMON: Yeah.
ROBBINS: And social media accounts grants more access to people that they otherwise might not have had.
LEMON: Yeah. Roger, you were saying?
CANAFF: Well, first of all, I very much respect Dr. Drew, and I'm so proud to be next to these two professionals, but I'm gonna fire right back at Dr. Drew. I disagree.
PINSKY: Sure.
CANAFF: Vehemently on one point. In fact, the vast, vast majority of people who are sexually offended against do not themselves become predatory people. It just doesn't work that way.
PINSKY: That's true. In fact, in fact.
LEMON: But certain percentages do?
CANAFF: Well, correct -- yes and no, though. There's a lot of psychological research that's come out recently suggesting that sexual offenders who are caught will self-report when they're in front of a judge or probation officer in order to get a lighter sentence or to frankly use an abuse excuse. So, I understand what Dr. Drew's saying, again, I have a lot of respect for him, I think what he's saying is correct. But, I would take issue with the idea that, that we have an exponential problem because more people are being offended. I honestly don't believe that's true. I think the numbers -- and again, I very much agree with Mel, when she says...
LEMON: OK.
CANAFF: One in four -- one in four girls and about one in six boys. Those numbers are correct. But honestly, I don't think they've changed. I think it's always been that way. I think we just perceive it more.
LEMON: Dr. Drew, I'm up against the clock. You know how this works. You wanted to say something about what he said?
PINSKY: We have to just look at the data. That's what will determine who's right who's wrong here. But it's a massive problem either way. We all agree on that.
LEMON: Thanks, everybody. Appreciate it.
CANAFF: Absolutely.
LEMON: Coming up people busted with small amounts of pot in New York may be able to walk away with a ticket instead of an arrest record. But will that open up a whole new can of worms? We're going to debate it next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: New York City's about to change its policy on possession of small amounts of pot, giving police the option of writing offenders a ticket instead of taking them into custody. So joining me now, I'm talk about whether -- that's a good idea is Charles Blow, CNN political commentator and New York Times op-ed columnist. LZ Granderson of CNN commentator and senior writer at ESPN, and of course we couldn't get enough of Mel Robbins, she is back with us, LZ, talking about pot now. Is this...
LZ GRANDERSON, SENIOR WRITER AT ESPN: Why are you starting with the brother with the dreadlocks talking about pot?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Because you look like, you know, Rastafarian. You've been -- are you unfamiliar with marijuana LZ?
GRANDERSON: I'm sorry, what was the question?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: You can't remember the question.
ROBBINS: Nice, LZ, nice.
LEMON: So, ticketing them for the offense instead of arresting them, is that a smart way to go?
GRANDERSON: I think so. When you look at the science, I mean, honestly, we need to be having a grownup conversation about this across the nation period and really look at the science versus the fears of the past. You have to remember this war on drugs started with, you know, President Nixon. And his dislike of hippies, in addition to what was happening with our veterans coming back from Vietnam. So this, where marijuana was placed in our lexicon started with President Nixon, and we haven't changed since then. And we've changed a lot in this country since President Nixon. It only makes sense we would reevaluate this as well.
LEMON: So, do you think it's a good idea what New York City is doing?
GRANDERSON: Yeah, absolutely. It's a good start.
LEMON: Alright. GRANDERSON: It shouldn't be the end of it.
LEMON: You know, we heard from you the last segment, so I'm gonna go to Charles now. Charles did you -- would you think it's a good idea?
CHARLES BLOW, OP-ED COLUMNIST FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, because there is such an extreme racial bias in the way that marijuana arrest policies are conducted right now, you have to offer some relief just in order to be fair. What the data show us is that black and whites use marijuana at about the same rates. However, blacks or are about 10 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than their white counterparts. Now, if you look at that and you say, if you turn that upside down and whites were being arrested at 10 times the rate of blacks for the exact same level of usage, if you believe that that would be OK, then maybe you can make this argument. If you believe that, that there would be a large hue and cry about that, you have to submit that this is not a fair application of the law and you must offer some level of relief.
LEMON: And you're talking about the level of relief is what the mayor is proposing.
BLOW: Exactly, exactly.
LEMON: Let me ask you this, Charles.
BLOW: Yeah.
LEMON: What about the potential for racial profiling with these tickets? Because these tickets don't really reflect race and arrests do.
BLOW: I'm sorry. I didn't understand what you were saying. I mean, what do you mean the potential for racial profiling? There's already racial profiling.
LEMON: Well, the potential part, but racial profiling in this as well because the tickets don't reflect race.
BLOW: Listen, there's rampage profiling that exists all across law enforcement and we are trying as a society as best we can to stamp that out. And if we can do -- every step that we can take along that path to eliminate racial profiling in our application of the law, we should take those steps.
LEMON: OK.
BLOW: Is this a perfect one -- that would eliminate racial profiling completely? Of course it's not. There isn't, you know, they are human beings who are still on the beat who are applying the law. And that does gonna be a part of the application.
LEMON: Alright. I want Mel to get in. Mel?
ROBBINS: Well, Charles, LZ, great to see you guys. I can just tell you anecdotally, Don, straight out of law school as a public defender in Manhattan. And, what I saw firsthand practicing in New York City is exactly what Charles was saying. Most of my clients that were taken into custody and arrested for marijuana possession-related offenses were African-American or Latino. It was very rare that you saw the white guys. So I think Charles is absolutely right from the racial standpoint. I personally this full disclosure think marijuana needs to be legalized, it needs to be taxed. The people who possess marijuana and smoke it should not be in our prisons that they should be out on the street. And one of the things that I think is great, about the fact that it's just a ticket is when you're talking about arrests, Don, it also means taking somebody into custody and searching them. Which is yet another and deeper violation of somebody's liberty and that's why it's--
LEMON: And it's also --
ROBBINS: Step from a -- go ahead, sorry.
LEMON: It's also what it does to your record. And many times people can't get jobs...
ROBBONS: Yes.
LEMON: Because of minor things for carrying small amounts of marijuana, I understand that. But, there's also a question about, if the ticketing part -- the reason I asked Charles, the ticketing part would be fair because tickets don't often reflect race as arrests do. So, that's a question. But look at let's ...
ROBBINS: Well.
LEMON: Go ahead, quickly, because I have to move on.
ROBBINS: It might -- you know, they might -- if they're profiling they're profiling, but I think people would rather get a ticket and pay a fine...
LEMON: Absolutely.
ROBBINS: Than get thrown into a holding pen and spend the evening in the tombs.
LEMON: And having that on the record for the rest of your life. OK. Stand by, everyone. Coming up, we're going to talk about this again. The N-word. Who can say it and who can't, who decides. We'll debate that next.
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LEMON: The N-word has a long history in this country from hate speech to hip-hop. But who can say it and who can't and who decides? I want you to listen to this. This is from the Washington Post's interactive project. It's entitled The N-word. And I have to warn you, OK? You're going to hear that word. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When was the first time you heard the word nigger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, I never forget that day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His little son came outside. He said, we don't want any niggers around here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was born with the word.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does hearing the N-word make you feel?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like my ears are bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm totally desensitized.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: it's trash.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's also just the power of that word to wound, to make you take a knee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is misleading and can be confusing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not really confusing. You just want to say it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't have a conversation about the N-word without talking about white guilt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is saying this word?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hear it on TV, I hear it in movies, I hear them in music.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are integrating on a faster level today than ever before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not black no more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: White people are not driving around going look at these -- I'm not a nigger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not ignorant. I'm a nigger addict.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALES: We're discussing a word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Back now with Charles Blow, LZ Granderson and Mel Robbins. So, Charles, we have talked about this so much. I think you sent me a text last year and said how much longer are you going to talk about this N- word? And now it's back in the news. Listen, I know it's an important subject. I'm tired of debating it. Do whatever you want to do with it. I'm just -- it's...
BLOW: You just toss it to me that way?
LEMON: I'm like you know, we have talked about this. I don't think we're going to change many people's minds on it. People who want to say it are going to say it. And people who don't, you know, they're going to stick to their guns too.
BLOW: Right, right. I mean, this is what you, you set it up perfectly. You know, there are a lot of historical roots to this word, and it was, it is a racial slur, and it was used that way as a form of hate speech directed at African-Americans. And now, a lot of African- Americans are, you know, trying to reclaim, desensitize, defang the word, and you can have arguments or discussions about whether or not that is the proper thing to do. A lot of people who have been the recipients of hate speech can sometimes adopt those words and try to smooth off the rough edges of those. On race and bias, however, I prefer to look at, you know, deeds rather than words. Whether or not people use hate speech back and forth can be kind of a bit deceptive. Very few people -- it's kind of impolitic to do now in public state.
LEMON: Yes.
BLOW: Very few people actually do it. But the deed and the hate behind it can still be present. And if you pay attention to the deed a bit more than the word I think we get a long way --
LEMON: But they're talk about using it on the football field. And that's you know, I can -- people aren't going to be saying hey, you know, using it --
BLOW: You can have those discussions.
LEMON: OK.
BLOW: You can have discussions about the propriety of whether or not --
LEMON: Let me ask you guys a question.
BLOW: However...
LEMON: Do you use it, do you use it on -- in your personal life?
BLOW: Do you? Do I?
LEMON: Yeah.
BLOW: Yeah.
LEMON: You do?
BLOW: No. No.
LEMON: LZ?
GRANDERSON: No.
LEMON: Mel?
ROBBINS: Absolutely not. And in fact, I find it really confusing to try to explain to my kids why it's -- you know, the word with the a instead of the e-r in the end is in so many music lyrics and why it's OK in some circles and in my mind it's never OK. Don, I think a lot about Shannon Sharpe. Remember with the Richie Incognito story...
LEMON: Yeah.
ROBBINS: Where he was being bullied and the N-word was being used, you know, to bully the player. One of the things Shannon Sharpe said really struck me, which is if it's going on in the locker room it's because some of the African-American players are letting it go on. And so, I just have a zero tolerance policy but I also feel like I'm not -- it's not a subject that I have -- I guess the proper authority to talk on, so to speak.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yeah. I understand, LZ, I understand all sides of it. And then -- you know, I'm not the word police. I just think that people should be more responsible when they use it. So, if you want to use it, fine, and your -- but if someone uses it around me I'll say, don't, I don't like that word, don't say that word. But, you know, I don't know how you feel about that.
GRANDERSON: Well, you know, to answer your question before, I don't use the word -- you know my son doesn't use the word, our household doesn't use the word. But the word is heard, you know, through various forms of pop culture. But with really respect to the NFL, you know, it's important to remember that, the only reason why the NFL is having this conversation is because, white men were caught on tape saying the word. It's not because the players were saying the word on the field. It's because they had two high-profile cases, one of which was mentioned by name, in which white men were seen saying the word so, the NFL felt it need to do something then. Very much in the way in which Ray Rice was caught on tape with domestic violence and then the NFL decided to act. So it's important to remember that part of the conversation as well. This is about protecting the brand of the NFL and not about having a larger conversation that we're trying to have here about whether or not this word has a home in our vocabulary in today's time.
BLOW: But I do believe it's really important to, for us to say that if you are a historically maligned population and there are particular slurs that have been used against you, then it is up to you and your community to work out --
(CROSSTALK)
GRANDERSON: But Charles, that's --
BLOW: I'm sorry. I'm gonna say this.
LEMON: Go ahead. BLOW: Workout, workout whatever use or not use, debate it, deal with it on your own. The rest of us who are not part of whatever historically maligned population that is, just let you deal with it on in your community on your own. There are more than 250,000 words in the English language. We can use other words, and if we have four or five that we don't touch because that -- you know, somebody else is dealing with it, just deal with it and just let that group deal with how they're gonna deal with that word. I don't see the big argument about that.
LEMON: Quickly, LZ, I'm up against the clock.
GRANDERSON: Well, you know, I just think that conversation to me just seems like it's not productive. You know, African-Americans have always had ongoing conversation about what's best for African- Americans. There's always been opposing views, an ongoing conversation. So, this notion that we can have a conversation and come to one conclusion, I think we're just chasing, you know, we're chasing steam, we're chasing clouds.
LEMON: Rainbows.
GRANDERSON: That's right. At the end of the day, it's -- if you want to have it in your household then have it in your household. If you don't you don't. I'm not trying to police anyone's language. I think it's silly, and I think it distracts us from the real issues, which are all these, the real tangible ills that are hurting the African- American community. Saying the N-word isn't one of them.
BLOW: Exactly. I agree with that.
LEMON: Coming up, coming up in Ferguson, Missouri police and citizens bracing themselves. A community on edge waiting to find out whether or not the grand jury will indict officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown, a report from the streets of Ferguson, when we come right back.
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