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Dr. Drew
Sex Offender Controversy Surrounding Momma June; New Details Surfacing About The Man Accused Of Kidnapping A Philadelphia Woman, Holding Her Captive For Three Days, Now Is On A Suicide Watch In Virginia, Where He Is Accused Of Raping And Torturing A 16-Year-Old, As Well; Harold Henthorn Is Now Charged With The Murder Of His Second Wife, Toni; Drama Surrounding Momma June`s Family And Honey Boo Boo`s Sister
Aired November 10, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Tonight, a woman`s deadly fall on a hiking trail. At first, it was called an
accident, but now police say her husband killed her. And, suddenly, there are questions about the death of his first wife.
Plus, the sex offender controversy surrounding Momma June, Honey Boo Boo`s sister is here live to tell us her side of the story. Let us get
started.
(END VIDE CLIP)
DR. DREW: Good evening. I am here with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. And, coming up, Anna Cardwell, Honey Boo Boo`s sister will join
us live.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HLN CO-HOST OF DR. DREW ON CALL SHOW: That is right, Dr. Drew. And, Anna has a lot to say. This has been an emotional
ordeal for her --
DR. DREW: Yes.
SCHACHER: -- You can imagine.
DR. DREW: And, she will tell us what has been happening in her relationship with Momma June and what her demands are.
DR. DREW: And, also what went down? How this happened? Who knew about it? But, first, new details surfacing about the man accused of
kidnapping a Philadelphia woman, holding her captive for three days. He now is on a suicide watch in Virginia, where he is accused of raping and
torturing a 16-year-old, as well. The families of his alleged victims are voicing outrage. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Any comment at all to the family, the victims?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELVIN BARNES SUSPECT IN PHILADELPHIA ABDUCTION CASE: Take this (EXPLICIT WORD) home. That is all I got to say. Record that.
CHARLES RAMSEY, PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER: He is a vicious predator. He is off the streets and hopefully he will be in jail for the
rest of his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A Philadelphia woman kidnapped on Sunday, now found alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: This kidnapping was all caught on camera.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She tries to walk away when the man grabs her and aggressively drags her down the length of this block.
He is being extradited to Virginia to face additional charges including attempted murder, related to an attack last month on a 16-year-
old Richmond girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: He allegedly kidnapped a 16-year-old girl by hitting her over the head with a shovel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He douched his prior victim in chemicals. He had that burns all over her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Barnes asked her how she wanted to die.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF RAMSEY: He got distracted from her because she proceed to flee in the woods.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEISHA GAITHER, CARLESHA GAITHER`S MOTHER: After all that beating, raping, choking, all of that, she got away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett for Hiphollywood.com, Loni Coombs, Attorney, author of "You`re Perfect And Other Lies Parents Tell",
Evy Pompouras, Law Enforcement Analyst and former Special Agent Secret Service. And, Sam, you looked into this guy`s social profile. What did it
look like?
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh, Dr. Drew. First of all, he is very concerned about snitches. We have all heard that term, snitches end up in ditches.
Well, this guy really does believe it, OK? Let me tell you what he first posted just two days after his first victim escaped on October 5th. He
wrote, quote, "I am from Philly. U snitch where I am from, you will be seeing heaven or hell. I do not see what (EXPLICIT WORD) kept from
snitching."
Most recently on October 16th, he wrote, "I tell you, the world has changed. People talk about snitching like it is funny or it is a game.
Wonder why the graves are filled. Just saying. That is why I do not have pity. Then people lie on you just because mother (EXPLICIT WORD) are
crazy." Here is an idea. Why do not you not do something bad and then you do not have to worry about snitches.
DR. DREW: Or when he asks what you get from snitch, you get people like him off the street.
SCHACHER: Yes.
DR. DREW: Now, interestingly, I spoke to the suspect`s uncle last week and this seems to run in the family. Take a look to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Did you suspect it was your nephew?
LAMAR BARNES, DELVIN BARNES` UNCLE: I did.
DR. DREW: And, did you call the police at that point?
LAMAR BARNES: No. No, I would not call the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: All right. Vanessa, what do you think about the uncle`s thought process on this? He is not going to call the police. He wants his
nephew to turn himself in, but he certainly not going to turn him in himself.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. That is not his job. He is not here to play the role of police officer at all. He is here
to be family. He is here to be loyal and that is how he sees it. And, there are other things in play here.
He says that he suspected it was his nephew, he was not sure. He did not know the parameters around the entire situation. All he knew is that
it kind of looked like his nephew. He is under no obligation --
SCHACHER: What?!
BARNETT: -- to call the police --
SCHACHER: Vanessa!
BARNETT: -- and, make his call. He is not. And, we cannot turn to him to solve crime. He is not batman. The police officers are the ones
who go and they pick up the bad guys. It is not his job.
DR. DREW: Well, my question --
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh!
BARNETT: It is not his job.
DR. DREW: Loni, my question is, say Vanessa chooses not the turn somebody in, in which she has definite knowledge of a crime, is not she
guilty of something as bad as commission?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: No.
DR. DREW: She has omitted something that is practically committing the crime.
COOMBS: It depends if she does something to actually aid and abet him as far as --
DR. DREW: Well, not getting -- not reporting him --
COOMBS: Not just not reporting is not necessarily a crime. But, let me tell you. This uncle, if he saw that videotape and he suspected that
was his nephew, he saw him take a woman, a stranger, by force, by violence, and take her away and nobody knew where she was.
Her life was at stake. We are not talking about a shoplifting or you know a little push or shove. We are talking about a life in danger. Why
do people abduct strangers like that? To rape them. To kill them. If they say "Oh, no, I want to let my nephew turn himself in. What in the
world did you think that he will turn himself in?
DR. DREW: Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes. It is one thing, I agree with you, Loni. It is one thing, let us say, if this guy is nephew had all these nonviolent crimes.
Sure, fine! Be a loyal family member. I totally get it. But, this dude is burying chicks.
DR. DREW: Yes.
SCHACHER: He is pouring bleach on them. He is lighting them on fire.
COOMBS: Yes.
SCHACHER: He is raping them.
COOMBS: Yes.
DR. DREW: He is crazy.
SCHACHER: Get him off the streets.
DR. DREW: Now, Evy, what can you react to what the mother --
BARNETT: All the more the reason -- he is not proven guilty.
DR. DREW: Vanessa.
BARNETT: He is not guilty, first and foremost.
DR. DREW: I understand --
BARNETT: He is innocent.
DR. DREW: -- except that we see him dragging a woman here. OK. I understand.
BARNETT: He is innocent until proven guilty. And, at the end of the day, this man goes on Facebook and talks about how much he hates snitches
and you want the uncle to then snitch him? This uncle could be in a ditch for real.
DR. DREW: Well, that is an important point. Vanessa --
SCHACHER: Got it. Got it.
DR. DREW: Yes. That is an important point, that people can get in real trouble. But, Evy, you can comment on that, but I also want you to
comment on this mother of the first victim. Look what our affiliate got from the mom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEISHA GAITHER: I just want to kill him. I just want to kill him. He went to go to look for a lighter or something, he told her he was going
to kill her. After all that beating, raping, choking, all of that, she got away. The burns of her skin, my daughter did not look like herself.
Sicko. He is a sick (EXPLICIT WORD). And, I hope that your (EXPLICIT WORD) fry in hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Evy, there is a lot to be learned from this case, including do not get somebody abduct you. Once they abduct you, never stop fighting.
Have at it.
EVY POMPOURAS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. You know what? That is a great point. We watched the video and actually it is interesting with
the surveillance video, how she actually turned around and started speaking to him. And, she is ignoring her instincts which are telling her to run
away and it is this thing where we do not want to offend people.
When you feel those instincts, that something is not right, you need to go. Do not engage individuals. I feel for this mother. You can feel
her pain. And, I do agree, that there is something obviously seriously wrong with this man. This is a serial killer in the making. This is what
we have.
This is someone who should not be on the street. This is someone who has control issues. And, it is interesting that he picks what? His
victims are women, and even he was charged prior, I think in previous marriage as assaulting his --
SCHACHER: Right.
DR. DREW: Ex-wife.
POMPOURAS: -- his spouse at the time. Yes, his wife. So, this is someone who has control issues, who uses power, burning, rape, this is
something -- and Dr. Drew, this is not something he has probably just to human beings. I would not be surprised if he started with animals.
DR. DREW: I would -- yes. I would not be surprised.
POMPOURAS: You lead -- Exactly. This is how you lead to this type of behavior.
DR. DREW: Yes. And, although --
POMPOURAS: This is someone who absolutely needs to be in jail.
DR. DREW: Sam cannot tolerate even that thought.
SCHACHER: No!
DR. DREW: Next up to our poll on this story. If someone in your family was accused of a crime, would you turn them in? Vanessa is the
first on the "I would not side on that poll." Take the poll on our Facebook page. We will have the results.
And, later, Honey Boo Boo`s sister is here live. I will speak with her about what she is dealing with. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Did you suspect it was your nephew?
LAMAR BARNES, DELVIN BARNES` UNCLE: I did.
DR. DREW: And, did you call the police at that point?
LAMAR BARNES: No. No, I would not call the police.
DR. DREW: How come?
LAMAR BARNES: I just would not do that. Look, I love my nephew. But, what he did is terrible.
SCHACHER: Wow.
LAMAR BARNES: And, the point is, if I was to speak to him, I would tell him to turn himself in to police. Normally, family members do not
call the police on their relatives. OK? You tell them. You ask them to turn themselves in or you try to take them to some authority.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: I am back with Sam. We are talking about the man accused of kidnapping the Philadelphia woman and the 16-year-old in Virginia. Let
us bring in our behavior bureau.
Leeann Tweeden, Social Commentator, host of Tomboy`s Podcast on Blogtalk Radio. Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, professor at Pepperdine
University and Erica America, psychotherapist/T.V. host. Leeann, do you have any sympathy for the uncle not calling the police on his nephew?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Not at all, Dr. Drew. A lot of times we find in cases where people are turned in. They are turned in by
family members. It is hard. But when somebody is doing something as egregious as that, when you are watching a video of a man forcibly taking a
woman off a street and kidnapping her and you know it is your nephew and you do not call the cops, you should be thrown in jail right with them.
And, let me tell you. That guy that kidnapped those girls and raped them and tried to kill the 16-year-old, what a douche bag?
DR. DREW: And, Sam, there is a tweet up there alongside of Leeann -- a twit. A Tweet.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Twit.
DR. DREW: That says you can report this anonymously and of course you can.
SCHACHER: Right. Yes. You would think that he would report it anonymously. That is exactly right, Dr. Drew. And, also something that
Evy brought up on the previous block of him being a serial killer, serial rapist. I wonder how many other victims are there? Because the 16-year-
old --
DR. DREW: Yes. There will be others.
SCHACHER: She told police, Dr. Drew that when he was raping and torturing her, he put up additional photographs of other young women and he
told her, I have done the same thing to these women as I am doing to you.
DR. DREW: So sadistic.
SCHACHER: Oh my gosh. So, you never know.
DR. DREW: Well, here he is now. This is the -- this is Barnes himself, responding to reporters. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (1): Mr. Barnes, are there other victims?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (2): Anything you want to say --
DELVIN BARNES, SUSPECT OF PHILADELPHIA ABDUCTION CASE: Take your stuff and go home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (3): What can you tell us about why did you do this, Mr. Barnes?
BARNES: Take this stuff and go home that is all I got to say. Record that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (4): Can you tell us why you wanted to do this?
BARNES: Take your (EXPLICIT WORD) home. That is all I got to say. Record that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (5): Mr. Barnes, anything to say to the people here of central Virginia?
BARNES: Take that (EXPLICIT WORD) home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: So, Erica, there you go. He is reticent. He is arrogant. I think he is worst in any social because we have a rap sheet a mile long.
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: He is worst than that.
DR. DREW: We have this sadistic bizarre behavior with his victims.
AMERICA: Yes. Time and time again.
DR. DREW: I knew there is more than just a sociopathy.
AMERICA: This is primal. This is a serial killer. This is someone who will kill people over and over again. He has no remorse, that is why
he is saying that he does not give an "S." That is why he is saying that to the reporters. This is someone that needs to be off the streets, 100
percent. He cannot satisfy his impulses, that is why he keeps doing it.
And, back to the uncle. I think it sounds like a cultural thing, you know, with the snitching and the loyalty. But you really have to go with -
- in my opinion, what is morally right and the fact that we are not talking about stealing a candy bar from the corner star. We are talking about a
girl potentially being murdered.
DR. DREW: Right.
AMERICA: In that case, it really needs to be taken what is morally right.
DR. DREW: That is why I was asking Loni , Judy in the last break about the legal ramifications, because he certainly has a moral obligation
to get that guy off the street, if you have any suspicion that is the guy. But let me ask a more basic question about this perpetrator. Is this evil?
Is this what we call evil? Can people understand that a little more clearly as evil? Because I am ready to call it that.
JUDY HO, CLINIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I am with you, Dr. Drew. Because, you know, when you look at this man`s long rap sheet, what we know about
recidivism is that it is already going to be a high rate when you have one offense. It is already 40 percent, people will start reoffending. But
when you have more than five, the rates are 80 to 90 percent.
SCHACHER: Wow.
HO: So, what is it about these individuals that have these long wrap sheets? It is not explainable just by environment, am I right? There must
be something biological.
DR. DREW: That is right. And, the people that study it, they are looking at these regions of the brain, right in here. Those may be being
defective and ultimately I think the one thing that you see is the inability to regulate and inability to empathize other people. Other
people really do not exist in any kind the way they do to the rest of us. They just sort of exist as objects and -- go ahead, Leeann?
TWEEDEN: All I am going to say is, you know, they say he is on suicide watch. I would just like it if accidently somebody just may be
looked away and maybe they left some clean fresh sheets in his room.
DR. DREW: It would save us some money. All right, I spoke with suspect`s best friend. Let us hear what has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD DAVIS, SUSPECT`S BEST FRIEND: We used to hangout. He is a good guy. I do not believe it. He did not have money for gas, because he
just lost his place. His momma just lost her car, so he is like he has like to commute to work and then back and forth dealing with the kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: But, Erica, at least his friend must know he is got a rap sheet a mile long. Why is it hard for people to accept these kinds of
behaviors from people who leave fair evidence that they are capable of something?
TWEEDEN: Right.
AMERICA: Well, what is interesting, and you brought it up before, a lot of these serial killers do live functional lives in other places. So,
that means he just brought up a job. This guy was going to a job and somewhat taking care of himself --
DR. DREW: Yes. Yes.
AMERICA: -- and a girlfriend. So, that is what is so scary.
DR. DREW: Sam, it could be somebody -- who knows?
SCHACHER: Right. Well, listen to his double life on Facebook, Dr. Drew. This is something he posted back in august. It was a picture quote.
Oh, and the quote reads, "A real man never hurts a woman. Be very careful when you make a woman cry because god counts her tears." Are you nuts?
DR. DREW: Well, he has got a few to count on the hands of that man.
SCHACHER: Yes.
DR. DREW: Next up, a husband who said his wife`s death was an accident but police are telling a very different story. And later, we will
talk about the drama surrounding momma June`s family and Honey Boo Boo`s sister is going to join us live. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAROLD HENTHORN, KILLED HIS WIFE ON HIKING TRAIL: To have two wives die of freak accidents. The odds are better off that you win the Powerball
lottery.
Henthorn and his wife Toni, a well liked ophthalmologist, were on an anniversary hike in Rocky Mountain National Park, September 29, 2012. He
said she slipped and fell 50 feet to her death while taking a picture. -- around the 1985 death of his first wife, Sandra Lynn Hantorn, who died
under equally bizarre circumstances. Hantorn`s jeep fell on her on a remote mountain road after he said he had pulled over to change a tire and
his wife was trying to retrieve a lug nut.
HENTHORN: He had a hand in my sister`s death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Loni and Evy. His two wives both died in ridiculously bizarre accidents, or at least it seemed they died in
accidents. Harold Henthorn is now charged with the murder of his second wife, Toni. He told police she fell off the mountain side while hiking
with him in the Rockies.
But investigators became suspicious when they looked at his past. His first wife died in `95 helping him change a tire. He says the tire
jack slipped while she was under the car. How? Second wife Toni was first seriously hurt in 2011 when he asked her to help him fix the porch. A
large beam he was carrying, oops, fell and hit her in the head. In 2012, the same wife, Toni, fell 50 feet to her demise in a Rocky Mountain
National Park. He says she slipped while trying to take a picture. Sam, really unlucky or is this guy a killer?
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, I am sorry, this is so fishy, this entire story, and this guy, yes, does have a history of lying. He lied about his
profession. He was very evasive about how his first wife died. He told his second wife and her family that she died in a car accident.
DR. DREW: Yes.
SCHACHER: He never really told the details of the story. And, I think the most telling part, aside from the evidence that the police have
that we do not know about, but I think the fact that the second wife`s family questioned him. They never thought that their daughter, that their
sister died from an accident. And, that is really telling. Because, I do not care how freakish of an accident I would ever get in, they would never
question my husband, because they trust him.
DR. DREW: Right. That is right.
SCHACHER: Do not get any ideas, Mark.
DR. DREW: But, Evy, this is the stuff that I look to you for because I do not understand. I cannot get my head around stuff like this. So, did
he get away with murder and he gets cocky and wants to do it again for more money?
POMPOURAS: Yes, because with the murder of his first wife, the death of his first wife, we do not know -- Again, we cannot issue his murder, but
the death of his first wife, there was a life insurance policy for about $300,000. And, he collects that.
Then we find out the second wife had three life insurance policies, each for $1.5 million, totalling to $4.5 million. And, it is also noted
that 36 hours after the death of his wife, somebody called in to claim at least $1.5 million.
So, we have somebody who is actually graduated. He starts off small, probably gets away with it and perhaps he has graduated to a completely
different level, because people become emboldened. Once you commit a crime, all you have to do is cross that line, and then you get cocky. You
get emboldened. If you do not get caught and then you go to the next level.
DR. DREW: And, we have to remember, these are all allegations. Loni, he has not been convicted of anything yet. But my question is, can the
first wife`s evidence be submitted as evidence in this case?
COOMBS: Well, that is going to be the big question, Dr. Drew. And, you better believe the prosecutor is going to want to get both of those
cases in front of the jury, because then they can see the full picture of this guy. Just make common sense.
DR. DREW: Yes.
COOMBS: However, the law is not really helpful in that way and the judge has a lot of discretion to say, look, you are taking two weak cases.
You are trying to put them together to make one strong case. But, you will have to take each case separately and determine just based on the evidence
of that case alone.
That is my guess what the judge will say in this case. But if the defendant takes the stand, he might open the door and talk about something
where the prosecutor can jump in and say what about your first wife? What happened to her? And get it in front of the jury that way.
DR. DREW: Evy, quickly, first.
POMPOURAS: I just want to say this, I think the fact that it took two years to prosecute him, for them to find something to charge him with,
I just want to say bravo to law enforcement for being that thorough. So, for them actually, Loni to actually arrest him --
DR. DREW: But let me throw -- he changed stories but it does not make him a murder. Vanessa, let me throw a little more here, which is they were
married 12 years. Now, she was an ophthalmologist. She probably did well financially. Why kill her? And, if he wanted to kill her, why wait 12
years. And, they had a kid by the way.
BARNETT: Maybe it took 12 years to be done with her. Maybe it was not all a bad marriage. Maybe it took some years for him to be really over
her and really want that $4.5 million. But, to me, these are pretty open and shut cases. That first case, I do not know about you, but I do not
know a wife alive that helps out with the changing of a tire. That is not my job.
DR. DREW: Saying that when you want to kill.
BARNETT: Exactly. And, then to say, "Hey, wife, get under that car and get that lug nut." Are you kidding me? I would never be belly down in
gravel. That is ridiculous. And, the second case, the Coronel`s reports that she fell face forward. You only fall face forward when you are pushed
from behind.
DR. DREW: Yes.
BARNETT: These are very -- let me be the judge. They are very open and shut case.
DR. DREW: All right. Next up, more on this hiking death investigation and we will hear from the behavioral Bureau. Very soon after
that, Honey Boo Boo`s sister has a lot to say about what is going on in her family. Anna Cardwell is here with us live. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENTHORN: He had a hand in my sister`s husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: She is on a trip with her husband, Harold Henthorn. For him, it was his second marriage. His first wife died in an
accident back in 1995. Today, federal investigators charged the 58-year- old husband with first-degree murder. He said she slipped and fell 50 feet to her death while taking a picture. A federal grand jury rejected that
story saying Henthorn deliberately killed his wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Did you push your wife?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Back with Sam, and our behavior bureau, Leeann, Judy and Erica. This man is accused of the murder of his second wife and now the
death of his first wife is beginning to look rather suspicious. Harold Henthorn was the only witness in both deaths. Leeann, you are here, and
ready to convict him.
TWEEDEN: Yes. I mean, you know, this sounds an often a lot like Drew Peterson, the cop who his fourth wife mysteriously disappeared and they
still have not found her body. But, then they started looking back at how one of his former wives was killed in a bathtub. And, they actually were
able to convict him and now he is in prison.
So, there is a lot of things going on here. That $4.5 million, she had three different life insurance policies that totaled $4.5 million. Two
days after she falls off this cliff and dies, he has already put in a claim for the insurance.
DR. DREW: Yes.
TWEEDEN: So, I mean you are not even mourning your wife, planning her funeral. You are going hey, can I get that money? I need it.
DR. DREW: Erica, what do you think?
AMERICA: OK. You know how I am always really emphatic with almost everybody in this kind of thing. Right? OK?
DR. DREW: Yes.
AMERICA: In this case, I do not believe in the death penalty, but I think this guy needs to be thrown away and the key never seen again. OK.
Listen, there will be people who tell you there is no such things a coincidences. But, there are smarter people, who would tell you, there are
no such things -- I am sorry, that there are no such things as coincidences.
This is like the guy had lightning struck in three times. There is no way in hell that the guy had an accidental death happened twice to two
different wives and a board hit her in the head. This guy is calculating. He is a monster. He is like a killer, a cold blooded killer.
DR. DREW: It is weird, though -- Judy, it is weird that he is so cunningly -- if indeed he did these things, they were so cunningly
operationalized --
AMERICA: Calculating.
DR. DREW: Yes -- it is kind a weird, like waiting 12 years for his moment. Crazy.
HO: That is right. But you know what? People who do this type of thing, who actually kill their loved ones, possibly for insurance money,
this is one of the suspected things, right?
DR. DREW: Yes.
HO: So, people who do that, they have patience. They wait. They plan. There is several cases like this in the last ten years, Dr. Drew,
and there is always years in between before they kill their next spouse. They really think about it. Maybe they have to use their money first and
then they had to plan.
TWEEDEN: And, you know, Dr. Drew, in 2011, when the pole hit her in the head, that did not do the job, so he had to regroup for another year
before he pushed her off the cliff.
DR. DREW: Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes. This guy is a total dumb ass. Oh, my God! My 3- year-old niece is watching. I am sorry for saying that. But, I have a question for Erica or Judy. How common is it for somebody who witnessed
something very terrifying, like he did. Let us say his wife rellydid fall off that cliff, would he change his story four to five times because of
some sort of PTSD or is that then a symptom of him lying?
DR. DREW: Judy.
HO: It is mostly a symptom of him lying, because when somebody has traumatic issues with an event, they just cannot recall certain things. It
does not change five times. Sometimes it comes back, sometimes it does not in a moment. So, with this person, he is changing his story. And each
story is exonerating him more.
DR. DREW: And, speaking of how he change his story, this is also very evidence. He told his family and friends that he was wealthy and he
claimed to be a professional fund-raiser for the church and other nonprofits. In laws discovered he had no job. He told them his first wife
died in a car accident, leaving out the fact that it was not a moving vehicle as the car fell on her, which is crazy.
TWEEDEN: When he was the only one with her.
DR. DREW: But, Judy, I mean, again, does he think that people are not going to find these things out? How these guys like this head work?
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, I think this a narcissist who believes that he is actually smarter and more cunning than he is. So, he believes that he is
going to beat everybody up with his little plans and you know what? He is not that smart obviously.
SCHACHER: Well, he got away with it the first time, Dr. Drew, years ago.
DR. DREW: And, that is what Evy was saying. That what has caused him to feel more emboldened until he will crossed the line. When Evy talks
about people getting into crimes then moving on with them, I get a little bit of a chill up my spine.
SCHACHER: Right.
DR. DREW: All right. We have got to move on now, because we have next up, it is Honey Boo Boo`s sister. She is here live to tell her side
of the story. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Honey Boo Boo`s mom, Mama June, allegedly dated a man who reportedly raped her then 8-year-old daughter
Anna `Chickadee` Cardwell back in 2002.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (1): TMZ obtained photos of Mama June with McDaniel in her bed as you see here, the same man who raped her own
daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (2): She denied she is dating the sex offender.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: There are shocking new claims from Lee Thompson, known as Uncle Puddle, that Honey Boo Boo may have slept in the
same bed as Mama June`s boyfriend, Mark McDaniel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: If in fact mark is around, do you think Alana is in danger?
MAMA JUNE: Yes.
BARNETT: This is your child. You are put here on earth to protect that person. You are putting her in harm`s way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Hi. I am back with Sam and our most tweeted story of the day. It has to do with Mama June and her ex-boyfriend, Mark McDaniel. He
pleaded guilty to aggravated child molestation in 2003 and sentenced to ten years in prison. Anna `Chickadee` Cardwell is Honey Boo Boo`s oldest
sister. She was just 8 years old at the time and she is with us now. Anna, how are you doing?
ANNA `CHICKADEE` CARDWELL, HONEY BOO BOO`S SISTER: I am good.
DR. DREW: Good. We will have this interview, relax. Anything that, you know, you feel uncomfortable or not, we will follow you. Take us back
to when you were 8. Were you living with Mama June and Marl McDaniel at that time.
CARDWELL: I was going back and forth. I was living with my grandma by most of the times. And, I lived with her every other weekend. And,
there are times I stayed a week and most of the time I mainly stayed with my grandma, most of the time.
DR. DREW: And, who was the first person you told about your secret of the abuse?
CARDWELL: My third grade teacher.
DR. DREW: And, how come you chose her?
CARDWELL: We were all just sitting there, I was being a little teacher`s pet. I was trying to get in good with the teacher. We were
sitting there talking about things. One of my friends was talking to her about her family. And, then I accidentally slipped out of my mouth. And,
the teacher is like, oh, God, what did you just say? And, I was like, nothing, nothing, nothing.
She said repeat what you have to say, what you just said. And, I was like, I repeated it and she took me to the counselor`s office and went to
the principal`s office. And, my grand parents got called, then cops got called and downhill from there.
DR. DREW: Have you had treatment for all this?
CARDWELL: I went to -- I didn`t have like counseling treatment, not now, not recently. But when I was little I did go to a counselor for about
three or four years.
DR. DREW: OK.
CARDWELL: And, then I went to a place to get everything checked out and everything looked at.
DR. DREW: Sam, you have a comment?
SCHACHER: I do. Hi, Anna. First of all, I think you are so brave.
CARDWELL: Hi.
SCHACHER: Hi. My question to you, when you finally did tell your mother what happened, what was her reaction? What did Mama June say to
you?
CARDWELL: Mama did not believe me for a while, and she was like, why would you do that? Why would you do that to me? I cannot believe you did
that. I am like, mama, he did it. So, you know, I cannot take the pass back. Either you believe me or not, it does not matter to me.
DR. DREW: And, Judy, that for me is what this story is all about. When a child is abused and reports of it to the parents, the parents either
say -- did Mama June ever say, well that happened. We just got to get on with things? Does that ever happen, Anna?
CARDWELL: Can you repeat that again? Sorry.
DR. DREW: Did Mama June ever say anything like, you know, well, this is just something that happened. And let us just get on with things. Do
not freak out. Just sort of dismissive of what happened to you?
CARDWELL: She just -- we never talked. After I told her it happened, you know? She did not believe me. We never talked. She said, I am done
talking about this now. I am done with it. I do not want to talk to you no more. And, then, eventually we just said, we need to put this behind
us. Forget what he did.
SCHACHER: Wow!
DR. DREW: Yes. See, that is what I was talking about. Judy, to me that makes me worry that something like this happened to Mama June and that
is why it made her feel so much pain in realizing that something like that happened to Anna that she just could not deal with it, just dismissed it.
HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. Maybe she is avoiding it because something similar happened and she did not know how to cope it with then --
DR. DREW: Right.
HO: So, she does not know how to cope with it now.
DR. DREW: We are speculating to be fair, but this is what you and I are used to seeing all the time in our practices.
HO: Right.
DR. DREW: It is a very common thing, unfortunately. And, Vanessa, you have been rather vocal on your feelings about Mama June.
BARNETT: Ablsolutely. Hi, Anna, I just want to say first of all, I am so sorry that this happened to you. And, as a mother, this woman gave
life to you but was too much of a coward to protect it. And, it really makes me emotional, because her sole purpose is to love you and care for
you. And, she did not do that.
And, I feel like she used you and she used you for money and brought you into this reality show and made you promises of a house. And, I feel
like that violation is the same as this pedophile. I am just hurt that you had to go through that.
DR. DREW: Well, let us see. Anna what do you say on Vanessa`s feeling? What do you say?
CARDWELL: I am hurt now, you know, and I was hurt then that momma never believed me. But even with the reality show, her bringing me in and
promising me a house, that hurt because I did not get what I wanted. But regardless, yes, I got money but I mean I never got a chance to touch it.
And, you know, knowing that maybe it is gone now, you never know.
DR. DREW: Anna, have you had any recent contact with your mom?
CARDWELL: I talked to my mom -- I think to her yesterday -- yesterday or the day before yesterday.
DR. DREW: And, are you guys cool?
CARDWELL: We are working on things and trying to get past it, you know? She is upset and she is talking about her health. She might have
cancer, you know, being all stressed out and having all these back problems and stuff like that.
She is just mainly upset about all the things that happened and that we keep talking about it and we need to stop talking about it because it
needs to be dropped. She says, well, when my side comes out, you know?
DR. DREW: Oh, boy. Vanessa, you want to make the last comment here?
CARDWELL: She is talking about her side of the story.
DR. DREW: I will be interested too. Vanessa?
BARNETT: I just wanted to know how she apologized at all and has she explained why she has chosen to take this man back?
CARDWELL: She did not apologize to me yet, even though I asked her, I said if you want to rekindle our relationship, you have to say you are
sorry. She said I said I was sorry the other day when Michael was not around. I said momma, you never said you were sorry foreseeing him. And,
when I read the magazine, she said that he said he was sorry for what he has done. She has never apologized to me for even seeing him or being
around him. And, it is kind of like, you know, I cannot get back on the same page just because she will not say she is sorry that she is being
around him.
DR. DREW: OK. I am going to take a quick break and we will have more with Anna Cardwell. And, what you are saying about this case, we will get
the social media`s response after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDWELL: Mama , come look. I am making up a song in my head and I am dancing to it.
MAMA JUNE: I made the choice not to miss with the family. After about a month of them walking me through it, I said the only way I will do
this is if we can be real. I was disappointed when Anna came to me and said she was pregnant when she was 17. I was because she was still in
school. But now I am proud of Anna that she is going to graduate this year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Back with Sam, Judy, Vanessa and Honey Boo Boo`s older sister, Anna `Chickadee` Cardwell. That interview was from 2012 when I was
talking to Mama June. The relationship with Anna and Mama June has been strained since these photos appeared on TMZ`s website.
They show Mama June with Mark McDaniel. He spent ten years in prison for molesting Anna when she was 8 years old. Anna, a couple of things.
First of all, I want you to know that the buzz around here is you are delightful. What a great job you are doing. So relax. Everything is
going very well.
CARDWELL: I am trying.
DR. DREW: My second question is -- good job -- is a little more uncomfortable. How do you think your mom is going to feel about this
interview if she hears about it or do you care?
CARDWELL: I care and I do not care at the same time. It is like, I am doing all these interviews, she is upset about it, and saying, you
trying to make a quick buck? I said, I ain`t making no money off this. That is all she thinks I care about at this point, which I do not. Even
though our family is going from paycheck to paycheck, it would be nice, but we are not making money off this.
DR. DREW: Now, June was a teen mom with you, right? And you are a teen mom, as well, which is a common pattern that happens.
CARDWELL: Yes. Momma was younger than me.
DR. DREW: Did she have any trauma in her life? You may not feel comfortable answering it, it may not be even fair to her to even bring it
up, but did she seem sympathetic to what you had been through when you were 8?
CARDWELL: Honestly, to me, I don`t know. I don`t know much about her life. She is told me a lot, but at the same time, I don`t believe it. I
know her and my grandma always fussed and fight. But probably nothing as dramatic as this happened to her.
DR. DREW: Judy, it is not our business to out Mama June and her history but we are used to intergenerational phenomena, just like teen
pregnancy.
HO: That is right. That is what I fear is going on here a little bit. Just hearing about your conversation with Mama June, Anna, and how
she brought up all these problems that are going on with her. I am not saying they are not legitimate problems, but not everything is about her.
And, that just really speaks to who has priority in this relationship.
And, I actually want to say, it is really good that you are taking it at the pace you are comfortable with in rebuilding a relationship with your
mom. If you need a little bit more distance to create some stability for you and your young child, I really believe that you should do that.
DR. DREW: Does that make sense to you, Anna?
CARDWELL: Yes. I am just -- I just want momma to apologize. It is uncomfortable talking to her. I do not talk to her on the phone now since
this happened. I only text her, like every other four days. It is uncomfortable. Me and my husband decided not go over this until all that
drama is gone.
DR. DREW: Are you worried, Anna, that your other siblings are particularly Ilana, could be at risk because of this guy?
CARDWELL: That is if she is dating him. If Mama says she is not dating him. I kind of do not believe her and don`t. Even though she is
supposedly dating sugar bear now. I feel like she is covering it up for herself after all this happened.
DR. DREW: Your mom posted a so-called truth video on Facebook to address the report she had reconnected with Mark McDaniel. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAMA JUNE: You know, the statement of me dating a sex offender is totally untrue. I would not ever, ever put my kids in danger. I love my
kids too much. I have not seen that person in ten years and do not want to see that person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: And yet the evidence suggests that is not true, Anna, is that correct?
CARDWELL: It is not true, because mama actually did see him. She said -- claim that she has not seen him in 10 years. She has seen him and
she was hanging around. She told me that all this was supposed to be surprise of Mark coming, because Mark`s daughter-in-law said hey, I have
got a surprise for pumpkin tomorrow. They were out looking at the house. They ran into Mark`s son.
DR. DREW: Pumpkin was attached to Mark, right?
CARDWELL: Yes. That was supposed to be her so-called father or whatever it is, because out of all the kids we have, momma does not know
who pumpkin`s dad is. And pumpkin thinks it is mark, which hurts my feelings because momma was making someone believe -- me and pumpkin has
never been that close until Caitlin was born. But with her saying screw you, f-you, all that stuff, I am just done with it.
DR. DREW: And, Sam, we have been getting a lot of messages. Anna, I guess we have some messages for you on our Facebook page.
SCHACHER: We do.
DR. DREW: Go ahead.
SCHACHER: Well, first of all, Anna, you should know that we have hundreds of tweets and Facebook comments in support of you. So, please
know that. I have a couple questions from our viewers. One, from Alisa on Facebook. She writes, Anna, do you feel that you will ever be able to have
a secure relationship with your mother after she is ultimately betrayed you by getting back with your abuser?
CARDWELL: Honestly, I do not think so. I probably will not be able to tell her all the things I used to tell her about my relationships and
stuff that is going on and all personal problems. Personally, I do not think that is going to be able to happen no more.
SCHACHER: OK. And we have a tweet, Dr. Drew, a question from Snashgy momma, she writes, Anna, have you seen your mom with this man? What about
this man with your young sisters? And finally, have you confronted him?
CARDWELL: I have not seen Mark around my momma or mark around the girls except whenever I was little and him and momma were dating. Other
than that, I ain`t seen him recently. I have not confronted him or anything like that.
DR. DREW: Did you have to confront him in court?
CARDWELL: No. No. My grandma did that all for me because they thought it was best for me to go to school, not to see him no more, try to
move on, get in school. Finish school out and all that. I was only in third grade and going into the fourth grade.
DR. DREW: Now, we reached out to TLC and asked about Mama June`s truth video. They had no comment about that. Vanessa, I am going to have
to put you on hold. We are going to try to hold Anna into our after show which you can see on our Facebook Page. We will continue this interview
there. Otherwise, "Forensic Files" up next.
END
