Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Brown Family Calls for Calm; Countdown to Grand Jury Decision; Interview with Senator Tim Scott; Cosby Rape Allegations; Michael Brown's Family Calls for Calm in Ferguson; America Biased Towards Youth?

Aired November 13, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

It could happen at any day now. I'm talking about the grand jury's decision in the Michael Brown case and whether or not Officer Darren Wilson will be indicted. If not will streets of Ferguson erupt in violence? And will justice be served?

I'm going to talk to the Brown family's attorney coming up. And forensic expert and best-selling author, Patricia Cornwell.

Also explosive charges against an American icon. Bill Cosby. The woman who says he sexually assaulted her multiple times when she was just a teen and she says no one listened to her until a male comedian called Cosby a rapist. She tells her story tonight right here on CNN TONIGHT.

Plus Bill Maher's rant over what he calls "The last acceptable prejudice in America." And it may not be what you think it is.

We've got a whole lot to get to this evening. So let's get started.

Now I want to bring in the very latest on the Michael Brown case. I want to bring the family attorney in, Anthony Gray. He joins me now.

Mr. Gray, thank you for joining us this evening. You know, this morning --

ANTHONY GRAY, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: No problem, Don. How are you doing?

LEMON: I'm doing great. The -- your partner, Ben Crump said regardless of the grand jury's decision this will be a defining moment in the state of Missouri. Do you believe that as well? And why?

GRAY: No doubt about it because there has been nothing of the likes of this type of attention drawn to an incident in Missouri in recent time, Don. We are talking about an event that happened in the small town of Ferguson, Missouri, that has captured international attention. And because the whole world in the sense, the whole globe is watching, whatever occurs, would be a defining moment in the history of Missouri. And I concur with his statement.

LEMON: You -- listen, you stressed that, that a message of zero tolerance when you were -- saw the governor's press conference earlier in the week. Do you believe that there will be violence and do you know about a police plan of action with the police and authorities what their plan of action is?

GRAY: We don't necessarily know what the plan of action is for the police. We are not really trying to figure that out because if we're lawful and people that are demonstrating are staying within the confines of the law, it doesn't matter what their strategy is. I think our message today for zero tolerance was everyone, the demonstrators as well as law enforcement. We thought the governor's message was a little lopsided and that he only focused on demonstrators.

And never once touched upon the agitation that the police were behind that caused some of the outbursts that he described but we've got multiple calls, e-mails, text messages, that ask myself, and Attorney Crump to go out and speak to that issue. And that's the reason why I made that a focal point of my earlier today.

LEMON: And Dr. Michael Baden, as you know, testifying in front of the grand jury, that is the family's forensic pathologist. And here's what he said, he looked at the medical examiner's report. And he said in this report, and this is a quote, that he had too little information to forensically reconstruct the shooting. There have been reports that there were anywhere from six to eight shots.

So if that is the case, how can his conclusion be accurate and helpful to the grand jury?

GRAY: Well, I think because from a preliminary standpoint, and I am not sure if that is accurate now. I think he has upgraded his findings from preliminary to what I thought were final. I mean, if you're telling me now that he has not been able to draw a final conclusion because certain pieces of forensic evidence is missing, then you -- then you're updating me.

It was my impression that he was able to at least get enough information to upgrade his preliminary report to a final report and present that forensic evidence before the grand jury this morning.

LEMON: You know, and we had a very interesting conversation, and I think one of the best regarding what is happening with the autopsy that I have seen on any media outlet last night. An interview with Dr. Cyril Wecht.

I want you to listen to it and then we'll talk about it.

GRAY: I heard that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: On the right arm we have a wound on the forearm that enters in the back and exits in the front.

LEMON: What does that say? WECHT: Well, I'm going to get -- let me finish with the next one.

And the upper arm, and the bullet goes in the front and exits from the back. Well, you don't have to be a forensic pathologist. Just position your hand, your arm like this. The bullet in the forearm entering here. Exiting here. And the bullet in the upper arm entering here. The arm has to have been held in this position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, this morning, you heard what Dr. Wecht said. This morning. Ben Crump said that he has evidence that Michael Brown had his hands up at the time. What is that evidence?

GRAY: Well, what he was speaking about was the direct eyewitness testimony. And that is used as direct evidence in court. Forensically, I don't think you can prove one way or the other if his hands were up or if his hands were down. When Ben made that statement earlier, we were holding fast and we have a firm belief, and those that have stated that they saw Mike Brown Jr. with his hands up.

And we would have to discount every last one of them to believe that he didn't have his hands up. So assuming that one of them is telling the truth, that would be the kind of evidence that we will say that we believe in. And that would be the evidence that we say proves that he had his hands up.

LEMON: Anthony, how is the family preparing for this?

GRAY: It is not something that I don't know if you can, Don, to be honest. What they have been told is the possibility of this outcome, and to be quite frankly honest with you, my friend, I don't think it's a reality that they are readily accepting. So there is a sense of denial. And I don't think I am speaking out of term when I say that. I just think it's real.

So I don't know if you can prep a parent for the news that the person responsible for killing her child may not ever be held responsible for that.

LEMON: Anthony Bray, Michael Brown family attorney. Thank you for joining us on CNN.

GRAY: Thank you, Don. Have a great day.

LEMON: All right. Thank you.

Now I want to bring in forensics expert and best-selling author Patricia Cornwell, her latest book is called "Flesh and Blood."

You know, I want to ask you this because do you think it is fair that Dr. Baden testified? Do you think the officers should be able to bring in their own forensic pathologist to examine evidence as well?

PATRICIA CORNWELL, AUTHOR, "FLESH AND BLOOD": Well, I mean I suppose the officer could certainly attempt something like that. I think in a case like this you had to let Dr. Baden or a forensic pathologist of the family's choice have a second autopsy and have this person testify because what's really here from the get-go is a complete destruction of trust. And if you don't trust the government officials, the county medical examiner -- by the way, it's an excellent office, I've been there before in St. Louis, great people.

But if don't -- if you've lost trust because you believe in conspiracy, manipulation, then obviously you are going to want your own person. And there are so many things that are very disturbing about the way this entire case was handled from the beginning in my opinion.

LEMON: How so?

CORNWELL: Well, first of all, you should never be leaving a body lying in the street for hours. That is not only incredibly unfortunate, it's awfully inappropriate. No medical examiner or death investigator wants to roll up at a scene where a body has been exposed even if it's got a sheet over it, you haven't bagged the hands yet. You have not collected any evidence from the body at the scene.

You don't know that things have been disturbed. I would want to know if I were the investigator showing up that anybody touched this body because gunshot residue could be transferred from the hand of a shooter to the victim if that shooter did touch the body. Not saying that happen. There are so many things can go wrong. Just, it gives people time -- I mean, the latitude to wonder, why did, what were people doing during this time trying to figure --

Can I ask you something you, And it's just -- and it gives people time, I mean, the latitude to wonder why did -- what were people doing during this time?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Patricia, can --

CORNWELL: They're trying to --

LEMON: No --

CORNWELL: Go ahead.

LEMON: Can I ask you something then you bring up some very good points here but then, whose fault is that? Obviously it is the -- you know, someone to deal with, whoever the coroner, whoever is supposed to examine, right? Should the officer be made to pay for the mistakes when it was not up to the officer or the police department to examine the body initially and to take possession of the body?

CORNWELL: Well, I am not even saying anybody should be blamed one way or the other, or talking about fault. What I am saying is that the police, the way, the protocol works, is when you respond to a homicide scene, a death, any death, the medical examiner should be contacted very quickly. They want to get to the body as fast as they can. Get it safely to their facility and to preserve the evidence --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I understand what you're saying. But my point is, is that the medical examiner is not -- you know, the grand jury is not kidding the medical examiner's actions. The grand jury is considering the officer's actions and if there was anything that was inappropriate between the time the body was laying there and then that the evidence was collected. The medical examiner's office is not going to pay for it. It will be the officer.

CORNWELL: Well, I don't think -- there is no evidence the medical examiner did anything wrong here at all. But I'm saying these types of things, though, create a lot of the problems that we're seeing in this case.

LEMON: Got you.

CORNWELL: Because all is this snowball rolling down a hill and it creates more distrust and upset.

LEMON: OK. So then if you have -- we have three different autopsies. One that was done by the feds. One that was done by Dr. Baden for the family. And then we have one that was done by the medical examiner. And we are basically -- they show at least two or three different, outcomes. If not more.

So then how does a grand jury reconcile that when they're looking at this information?

CORNWELL: Well, you know, we're taught to believe these days that forensics answers all questions. And it just simply doesn't because those gunshot wounds could have happened in a lot of different ways. You were just talking a moment ago about like where were the arms? Well, that depends on the position of the person, he could have been like this. He could have been like this.

He could have been a lot of different things that could have accounted for those injuries. And this is where you would hope that testimony from the witnesses might give you some insights as to what was actually happening, and this -- I am sure this happened so unbelievably fast, which is another problem. Just very, very quickly.

LEMON: Patricia Cornwell, we appreciate your insight. Thank you very much.

CORNWELL: Thank you.

LEMON: We've got much more to come here on the Michael Brown case.

When we come back, the first black senator elected in the south since Reconstruction. Rising Republican star Tim Scott joins us.

Plus, Bill Cosby has fought these allegations for years. But now rape accusations against the comedy icon are resurfacing.

I'm going to talk to a woman who says he sexually abused her multiple times when she was only a teenager. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Senator Tim Scott, a Republican from South Carolina, has made history. With his victory in last week's midterms, he becomes the first black senator to win election in the south since Reconstruction. He's already in the Senate. He was appointed in 2013 to fill an open seat in South Carolina. Now voters have elected him to that seat.

Senator Tim Scott joins me now.

Congratulations, Senator. How do you feel on the historic win?

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you, Don. I'm excited about it. Frankly, I'm excited because in South Carolina people now have consistently voted for candidates who share their values and represent their issues. A good sign for our country and certainly very exciting for South Carolina and it's exciting for me as well.

LEMON: Yes, but -- yes, but what does it mean to you? You're talking about the voters. You're happy for them. But what about you?

SCOTT: Well, I think I look at it through the lens of my grandfather, my grandfather is 94 years old, raised in South Carolina. He knew a different South Carolina that I know. And when I think about the fact that my grandfather in his lifetime he's seen his family go from picking cotton when he was a kid to having a grandson elected to Congress and now to the Senate. So from Cotton to Congress in one lifetime this says a lot about South Carolina.

I think it says a lot about my grandfather's work ethic and that he stressed education to me and my brother, and it's worked out very well.

LEMON: What do you think this means, this new political landscape involving black voters? Were you -- and I wanted to ask you about this because much has been made about the fact that the NAACP did not congratulate you nor Mia Love on your victory.

What's going on here?

SCOTT: I can't really explain what's happening with the NAACP and who they congratulate, who they don't. But what I do believe that is important for us since to engage in a serious conversation about eradicating poverty, have a serious conversation about unemployment, have a serious conversation about the poverty rate.

For those who want to have that conversation, any place, any time, with anyone, call me. I'm coming. Because it's so critically important for us to breathe hope into places where hopelessness is very pervasive.

LEMON: Listen, I don't -- I don't disagree with you. And I understand that you're sticking on message now.

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: But it does say something if you -- if you will allow, about the support that the Democratic Party has, at least African-Americans, right, with African-Americans. That in some way that party may take African-Americans for granted. And so by not, you know, congratulating you, does it say anything to that effect, do you think?

SCOTT: Well, certainly speaks to a legacy of shunning Republican candidates. Black and white. Frankly, I think it doesn't speak well of the notion of a nonprofit organization that is so aligned with the Democratic Party that perhaps it's forgotten a part of the core mission of helping everyone and being excited for all success of people of color. But in the end one of the things I have consistently believed since my days in high school is that we're better together.

So I don't spend a lot of time thinking about those folks who don't celebrate my success or don't celebrate the success of my state. I think about how to bring our country together. We really have challenges in this country. And I'm not sure that we're heading in the right direction. I want to make sure that we change the trajectory of the nation. And that means, putting all hands on deck if we're going to make progress --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Is there an opportunity -- sorry, there is a bit of delay here.

SCOTT: Sure.

LEMON: But is there an opportunity do you think here for the Republican Party, when it comes to people of color? By drawing more people into the tent. By being, more inclusive. Do you think there is room to grow here?

SCOTT: Yes, there is certainly always room to grow. And certainly I hope that we start with my opportunity agenda that I think speaks specifically and clearly to parents who have kids growing up in poverty. Parents who are in a single parent household. Working double shifts. Trying to make their ends meet.

I think our message in the Republican Party, the Grand Old Party or the great opportunity party speaks to, A, education is the foundation of the American dream. If you're looking for the closest thing to magic in America it's education. I'm a kid that almost flunked out. Got my act together. Went to college. And learned the benefits and the beauty of the American dream.

I want more kids to experience that. We have four -- Don, we have four million vacancies in America. I would love to have the skill sets in the work force, the greatest work force in the world. I want them to have the skills to fill those four million jobs. And many of the folks who come from minority communities, we can do amazing things if we focus on the right issues. And I hope that the party continues to do so.

LEMON: So the president did call you on the phone. He did congratulate you. And I'm sure that meant a lot to you?

SCOTT: Absolutely. It was a surprise call. I was sitting -- getting ready to make my victory speech and the phone rings, and it's the president of the United States. And we talked about education as I just said with you, and talked about skills in the work place. And looking for common ground. I'd love to find some that we could work on, on behalf of the country.

LEMON: All right. Let's take a little bit more politics here. We're talking about what happened today. Newly elected Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell spoke about immigration.

Let's take a listen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), INCOMING MAJORITY LEADER: We'd like for the president to recognize the reality that he has the government that he has, not the one that he wishes he had, and work with us to try to find a way to improve our immigration system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is this a look, Senator, into the future of how the White House and the Republican leadership are going to treat each other you think?

SCOTT: Well, I hope we find common ground. The president said himself March 28th, 2011 that he cannot act unilaterally so that means that he has to come to Congress and work with us on a plan that moves forward. The concept of immigration. The immigration reform.

Most of us believe that our porous borders are a problem from a national security standpoint as well as immigration. So securing that border is a primary step that we must take. But then that opens up the opportunity to have credibility with the American people. And move forward on immigration reform. That would be positive for all parties concerned.

LEMON: I'm sure you've been asked this question before. Do you have any presidential aspirations?

(LAUGHTER)

SCOTT: I once thought about running for the presidency of my homeowner's association and didn't hatch the votes. So I think I might stay in the Senate for at least another term and maybe go into ministry after that.

LEMON: But no presidential aspirations.

SCOTT: No presidential aspirations.

LEMON: Thank you, Senator. I appreciate you joining me on CNN.

SCOTT: That's right. LEMON: And congratulations.

SCOTT: Thanks for making time for me, Don. I know your show is very important and very powerful. So I appreciate being on your show.

LEMON: You're welcome to come back. Welcome to come back any time, Tim Scott.

Bill Cosby has long cultivated the image of lovable comedian and one of TV's all-time favorite dad. There's another side, there's allegations that he sexually assaulted multiple women over the years.

When we come back one of those women tells her story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: His 1980 sitcom turned Bill Cosby into America's dad. But there is a dark side to the comedian's story. Rape allegations by multiple women. Stretching back decades.

Cosby has repeatedly denied the allegations. CNN has not independently confirmed any of these allegations. But now they're making headlines again.

And CNN's Ted Rowland's has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL COSBY, COMEDIAN: Hey.

TED ROWLAND'S, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An online publicity stunt is back-firing so badly on Bill Cosby it is endangering the image he has spent at a lifetime building. The 77- year-old comedic genius who never swears on stage and who played the wholesome Dr. Huxtable for years on the "Cosby Show" is causing years- old sexual abuse allegations to resurface.

On Monday Cosby issued an online challenge to meme or caption a few classic Cosby photos, writing, "Go ahead, meme me," which people did.

"My two favorite things, Jell-O pudding and rape," was written over this photo of Cosby smiling. "Look at this wacky shirt I'm wearing. Also, I'm a serial rapist," tweeted another person.

The rapist label stems from allegations made years ago when several women came forward claiming they've been sexually assaulted by Cosby. He was never charged with a crime but the allegations have lingered for years and the subject was brought up last month in a stand-up act by comedian Hannibal Buress during a show in Philadelphia where Cosby's wholesome image was mocked.

HANNIBAL BURESS, COMEDIAN: I don't curse on stage. But yes, you're a rapist so.

ROWLANDS: The most detailed allegations against Bill Cosby appeared in a lawsuit filed in 2005 by a Temple University employee who claimed she was drugged and assaulted by Cosby. Police investigated but did not charge Cosby due to lack of evidence. The civil suit was settled confidentially. The same type of story was alleged by Tamara Green who went public with her story nine years ago on the "Today" show.

TAMARA GREEN: Now he had gone from helping me to groping me and kissing me and touching me and handling me. And, you know, taking off my clothes.

ROWLANDS: Cosby's representatives said they don't want to respond to old resurfacing allegations. Over the years Cosby, through his attorneys, has repeatedly denied sexually assaulting any one.

COSBY: You teach them, and say, now go. Attack that tree. Bite it. Pow.

ROWLANDS: Cosby has a new series with NBC that's supposed to debut next year. It is unclear how if at all this new look at old allegations will affect not only that show, but also the lasting image of a comedy icon.

Ted Rowlands, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Joining me now, Barbara Bowman. She alleges she was raped by Bill Cosby when she was a teenage actress.

Thank you for joining us.

BARBARA BOWMAN, ALLEGES SHE WAS RAPED BY COSBY WHEN SHE WAS A TEEN: Thank you.

LEMON: I have watched you during -- when you look at him, what's going through your mind?

BOWMAN: Just -- still disbelief. And how powerful -- what a powerful hold he had over me.

LEMON: So you said that he drugged and assaulted you, you said, multiple times.

BOWMAN: Yes.

LEMON: You were a teenager and aspiring actress.

BOWMAN: Yes.

LEMON: What do you believe happened?

BOWMAN: Well, there were several occasions that I would, I woke up out of a very confused state. Not in my clothes. There was an occasion at this Brown Stone in New York City where I had gone for dinner. And had one glass of wine with dinner. There were staffers there. The host was mingling with people. And before I knew it I was -- with my head over the toilet, throwing up. He was holding my hair out of my face while I threw up. And I was in

a white T-shirt and my panties. And he was looming over me in a white robe.

LEMON: And so you were at his house at a dinner party or were you there to be with him?

BOWMAN: I was there alone. And he had been mentoring me and grooming me. I'm from Denver, Colorado. And when I was 17 my agent introduced me to him to groom me, to mentor me, to get me ready for show business and part of that was bringing me to New York City.

LEMON: Did he make advances toward you when you weren't -- because you believed you were drugged, when you weren't drugged did he make advances towards you?

BOWMAN: It was a very controlling and manipulative environment. It was very, very controlled, very isolated, and there were twisted things. There were telltale signs.

LEMON: But nothing overt?

BOWMAN: There was something pretty overt in Reno, Nevada. But by that time, I was very much under control and under his thumb. I don't recall that there was -- there were drugs.

LEMON: So after the initial time you spent, you said, Reno, Nevada. You also went to I believe Atlantic City. You put yourself in a position to be close to him again, was that naivete, youth, why would you do that?

BOWMAN: I would say it is so many different things. Victims of sexual assault go through so many different things. I was young. I was in New York City. He and my agent were subsidizing my housing, and my acting classes. And my job was to focus on acting, do what I was told, stay on the straight and narrow, and when things started to happen with him, I couldn't go to my agent. I was terrified of her. And I was terrified of him. And he would say things -- if I started to ask questions or I would get you know the confusion from the drugs, and I would be asking questions, he would say well you were drunk. And I would say well, I can't, I can't -- I wasn't drunk. But I can't let my agent know I was in that position. She'll -- I am supposed to be working hard in New York.

LEMON: How do you think he drugged you? Any idea?

BOWMAN: I never saw any drugs, but I would wake up completely confused, half-dressed. And knowing that my body had been touched without my permission.

LEMON: You have struggled over the years to have your allegations taken seriously.

BOWMAN: Yes.

LEMON: It wasn't until a comedian recently talked about it. This is you know some time later, 30 years later.

BOWMAN: Actually, no. Actually, no. I have been speaking out publicly and trying to have the story believed and heard since 2004.

LEMON: Do you think it has been taken seriously?

BOWMAN: It is starting to. I am really glad now it is a relief to know that the critical masses are starting to finally pay attention. It has been a long hard lonely dark road.

LEMON: You have never taken legal action?

BOWMAN: I didn't, no. And I didn't. Why didn't I? Well, I tried. I told my agent one time. She did not believe me. I, a friend of mine in '89 took me to an attorney. He laughed me out of the office. At that point, nobody would believe me. He was Dr. Huxtable, he was America's dad. Everybody loved him. I loved him. I wanted him to be my dad. Nobody believed me. I was so broken down at that point and had gone through so much, of having this, my mind completely manipulated. I just -- when I got, kicked down in New York City, they put me back to Denver with the clothes on my back. Things got locked in the apartment. I had to sue to get my things back. I regrouped, came back to New York and I just said I have to put this away. I just have to get on with my life.

LEMON: You're not the first woman to make those allegations. There are several, but all have been unsubstantiated. He has the not, never, never been prosecuted. Why do you think he hasn't?

BOWMAN: Well, he certainly has a great team that does great damage control. I will say. You know, he is -- he is -- he has done so many good things in his life. He is on the board of directors of Temple University. He's on the right -- he got the writer's award or something, he's, you know, very revered. He was loved by everyone. When this sort of thing happens, he has ways to get around it. He has confederates of circles of people that protect him.

LEMON: People don't want to believe it because he is such an iconic figure.

BOWMAN: I think that haze lot to do with it.

LEMON: You know, people say you are out to get something, fame, revenge, money, something, and they don't believe you because it has taken you all these years and nothing have been substantiated?

BOWMAN: That, I have heard a little bit of that, but I had so much support. Worldwide support from women and men who say I believe you. I -- I have faith in you. Thank you for speaking. And really, this is not about burying him anymore. I mean, that part of me is healed. I am in a place of empowerment now. And now really what this all -- how this all began in 2004 was not monetarily driven.

(CROSSTALK)

BOWMAN: My statute of limitations had run out. Now, my goal is to speak out and help other victims. I was just appointed ambassador for a national advocacy group called PAVE, it stands for Promoting Awareness Victims Empowerment. I will be doing public speaking tours, talking to young actresses, models who are vulnerable. Who will be finding themselves in this position. I really, really want to touch somebody else and give them the encouragement and empowerment to come and speak out. Otherwise, there is no -- we are not going to get ahead. These men are going to keep getting away with it.

LEMON: Barbara Bowman, thank you for coming in and telling your story.

BOWMAN: Thank you very much, Don.

LEMON: I appreciate you.

BOWMAN: Thank you.

LEMON: You know, over the years, Cosby through his attorneys repeatedly denied sexually assaulting anyone. Now, this is according to the Washington Post, a representative for Bill Cosby did not return multiple calls and e-mails from Washington Post staff -- for Washington Post staffer comments on Barbara's op-ed. Today, we spoke to a representative of Bill Cosby who didn't want to address the resurfacing of the allegations.

Coming up, our legal experts weigh in on the accusations against Bill Cosby.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. You just heard Barbara Bowman accused Bill Cosby of sexually abusing her when she was a teenager. Hers is not the only allegation against him. But he has repeatedly denied all of them. I want to find out what my legal experts think now.

Joining me, Lisa Bloom, the legal analyst and attorney and founder of Bloom Firm, and Mark Geragos, CNN legal analyst and also a defense attorney. Lisa, your website, avvo.com?

LISA BLOOM, AVVO.COM: Right, I'm a legal analyst on avvo.com.

LEMON: Avvo.com, OK. So before I get to the allegations, what did you think of her interview, getting -- as I look at social media, people say they don't believe her body language. They do believe her body language. First to you, Lisa.

BLOOM: Listen, I represent women look her every day, bringing rape or sexual abuse charges against very powerful men. It is all way the same story, Don. My prior attorney told me not to go to the police. I think those attorneys are behaving shamelessly. They're accomplices to the next rape. If somebody is a rape victim, of course they should go to the police. My mother didn't believe me. My agent didn't believe me. I was scared. I was economically dependent on him. So it's a very typical story, it's a very sad story. Having said that, when something happened decade ago and there was no legal adjudication, it's very hard to say now, what's true and what's not true. That's why it is so important that women do go to the police. LEMON: OK.

BLOOM: I think the core problem is we don't trust the police to handle our cases effectively.

LEMON: All right. I need to Mark. And Mark, as Lisa pointed out, these allegations are not recent allegations. This one is 30 years old. What did you make of what she said?

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Like Lisa, I do represent -- I'm on both sides of this issue. Most recently, I'm representing Keisha (ph) a woman charging a doctor with similar kinds of activity. Listen to this woman, many things are reflective and have resonance with that. I think that there is a problem, and a lot of that problem is this kind of repression that takes place, both psychologically and societally. She argues and I think forcefully for the fact that no within would believe her. Normally, you would say well, why didn't you make a fresh complaint? It sounds like in this case she did. And that she was met with resistance. That having been said, I understand everybody is entitled to presumption of innocence. We shouldn't just rush out and convict. But at the same time, it is troubling, especially with the chorus of voices that you have.

LEMON: Lisa, what about celebrities? Bill Cosby -- he is an iconic figure in our society, America's dad. Treated differently?

BLOOM: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There is no doubt about it. Somebody of Bill Cosby's stature, any A-list celebrity has a huge team of attorneys, publicists, spin doctors around them. There is no question that the scales of justice are heavily tipped towards the wealthy. That's not a revelation. And so for her to go up against somebody look him, she would need a high powered lawyer of her own to guide her through every step of the system. Even so, it's going to be a David and Goliath battle against somebody like him. Nevertheless, it needs to happen and it needs to happen around the time the original incident occurred.

LEMON: Mark, have to ask you this because it occurred the other evening when Lisa's mother was on talking about the high school men accusing a teacher of rape. People question credibility of people bringing the accusations. This isn't meant to take away from Barbara Bowman's story. But regarding sexual assault, how often do people make false allegations? Is it as common as we might think?

GERAGOS: I don't know if there is any study how common it is because part of the problem is that a lot of times when there is an actual sexual assault or rape or something like that, a lot of women, because it is normally men, man on woman, a lot of women will not come forward for a number of reasons, whether it is because a relative, because they're scared, or because there is a disproportionate leverage between the -- between the person who is the predator versus the person who is being preyed upon. The problem is that there are some rather notorious times where people had made a false accusation, so to some degree, I am OK with, and I don't think maybe Lisa would disagree with this, I am OK with people having a healthy skepticism. But I certainly am not OK with the idea of people just dismissing it outright or saying that it can't be true.

LEMON: Lisa, really, I only have 15 seconds here, what about the statute of limitations for cases like this?

BLOOM: There should be no statute of limitations for rape on the criminal side. No rapist should get off just because time has passed. If she can prove her case, if she has witnesses, if she has hard evidence, her testimony alone is enough. She should be able to prove it.

LEMON: Lisa Bloom, Mark Geragos, thank you.

Bill Maher says the last accepted prejudice in America is against age. Is he right? We'll debate it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: As residents of Ferguson nervously await for the decision of the grand jury, Michael Brown's family is calling for calm. There are fears that violence will erupt if Officer Darren Wilson is not indicted in Michael Brown's death. Joining me to talk about this now, my colleague Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota. OK. My first question -- good to see you, guys.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": Good to see you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": Good to see you.

LEMON: OK. If Darren Wilson is innocent and he does not get indicted, has there been a rush to judgment if he is actually innocent? Do people think an unarmed black kid or black man has been shot or has been killed automatically, someone must be found guilty?

CAMEROTA: There are so many conflicting reports of what happened that day. That's why there should be a trial. As we know, there were witnesses. So this wasn't just one man's you know perception against a dead person. There were witnesses who say that they believe that Darren Wilson was -- he started it. They thought that he was aggressive by opening the door into Michael Brown. And then also, so many people thought that Michael Brown was either trying to run away and retreat, or turning around to surrender.

LEMON: In the public sphere, in the court of public opinion, has there been a rush to judgment?

CUOMO: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: This officer is automatically guilty.

CUOMO: Yes there has. Is the media to blame for that? No. Circumstances on the ground are to blame for it. You had a witness, by unusually large number of people. It does touch on something that is central to a big problem in our society when it comes to policing. It is not new for the African-American community to feel that they don't get equal justice, either in the courts or on the streets from the cops. So was there a rush to justice? There is no question.

LEMON: Rush to judgment.

CUOMO: Absolutely. There should have win been a rush to justice. I misspoke. This is what I should have said because this has taken a long time, this grand jury. What we are dealing with now from the media problem with it is, it's complicated. This is a cop, not a citizen, there's a different standard. People are confusing the grand jury with of a trial in terms of what they need to find.

LEMON: We are going to find out soon what happens. But I think, yes, there's a big issue. Obviously, a person of color, but I do feel that this officer is paying the price for unrest that has been happening or something that is boiling beneath the surface in the community for a long, long time. Whether he is, you know, whatever happened.

CUOMO: In many communities.

LEMON: OK, let's move on. Another subject. We have a lot to get to tonight. So Bill Maher recently took on the subject that how we venerate the young in the country at the expense of the older and the wiser among us. Let's take a look this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL MAHER, COMEDIAN: You know who this hottie is? That's Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg in 1953. That's life. You are beautiful when you are young. You are wise when you are old. Duh, only we don't get this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, do we have too much bias towards youth? I will ask the question and answer it first myself.

CAMEROTA: Go ahead.

LEMON: I say, yes, because I had people in this very company who come up to me and they're like are you out of college. They say you know what, I'm a senior producer. You're a senior in college, there's no way you can be senior producer in your 20s. That's not how I came up through and I don't think that works.

CAMEROTA: So you have bias where you think a young person hasn't earned their stripes and isn't wise enough to have elevated position.

LEMON: I think there is nothing like wisdom and time on the planet. I think you have to earn your stripes. Experience counts. I will always say that.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but what about our love affair with the youthful visage that we love looking at young people, that actresses

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: There is nothing wrong with that. We shouldn't fire older people, or not take into account what older people bring to the table just because they are old.

CUOMO: It's not about should. It's about what do you do? And we do value beauty in the society.

LEMON: And youth.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You know, I mean, it is hard for people to be on television and not be found attractive by somebody. It's certainly a bar.

LEMON: But not just on television, even in politics.

CUOMO: Look, you have a lot of laws in place to be careful about discrimination. I think Bill is making a good point. I think it is not that simple though. The AARP is the most -- let's not put that point on it. It is a big, strong, one of the most powerful lobbies in the country. Over 37 million people. The oldest people in the country have the most disposable income. They vote the most.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: In our business, what do we look at? The demo. What is that? The young people.

CUOMO: True.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That's a whole another mystery. I think he is right. He is also making a point specifically about politics. I think it should matter a lot less there than.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Not just about politics. There's another example about the young.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do. We let them run everything. How else would you explain the cultural moment that is now being enjoyed by the human buttocks? It is an ass. It has been around for centuries. Dogs aren't this fixated on it. Why are we treating it like a traveling art exposition? Millenials should be called generation ass.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And that was last week, even before the Kim Kardashian butt thing. Bro, I think he has a point. Where does this come from? We are about the same age, all of us.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I blame Kim Kardashian.

LEMON: Big butt used to be fashionable.

CAMEROTA: Now they are.

CUOMO: I don't know. Look, the history of ours has made it clear, everyone always had an eye for the butt cheeks we could say. I don't think -- the Greeks, have a word for it (inaudible) having a nice set of butt cheeks. So I don't think it is new. I don't know that it means more today. I think it is bigger is better, seems to be a new point of fascination.

LEMON: Yes. We don't walk around. I won't even go there.

CAMEROTA: Didn't know we would be debating the merits of the big butt.

LEMON: Can I ask you something as a woman, did it make you uncomfortable, did she go too far?

CAMEROTA: Let me say something about Kim Kardashian. All she is a bodacious body with a head on top. That's all she is. That is her calling card. She is just booty and booby-licious. That's it.

CUOMO: That sounds better when she says it.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: I can't believe are outraged. She posed naked. She showed her butt. That's all she does.

LEMON: Full frontal though. Full frontal.

CAMEROTA: She is only a body.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Were you offended by full frontal?

LEMON: I'm not offended by it. I think there is something a little bit old school in me that you must have couth and you should have standards.

CAMEROTA: Kim Kardashian?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: She is someone's mom. Well, I'm not saying -- you know, do what you want.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Do you think now that she has a baby, she should behave differently?

LEMON: Sure. I wouldn't want my mom naked. Do you want your mom naked?

CUOMO: The personal decision is one thing. I tell you what though, I love it. Here is why. I love the hypocrisy. I love the hypocrisy.

CAMEROTA: Where is the hypocrisy? CUOMO: Americans get offended by this when they're not offend by so

many other thing that are so, so offensive.

LEMON: Like violence in the culture.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Yes, don't curse on television. Don't you show me that, but they're, the most porn, the most, you know, lewdness, look at Twitter, and this offend you. It's funny.

LEMON: Yeah.

CUOMO: It's funny.

LEMON: You said you would -- the hypocrisy. You like the hips.

CUOMO: He is a funny guy.

LEMON: Thank you, Chris. Keep my night job as an anchor. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: My pleasure.

CUOMO: Thank you.

LEMON: Good to see you.

CUOMO: I could go either way on it, don't kid yourself.

LEMON: We will be right back. I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for watching. Good night.