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Pathologist Testimony; ISIS Leader's Call; Bono's Midflight Problem; Probe Pictured on Comet

Aired November 13, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Great to be with all of you on this Thursday. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Major developments to get to this afternoon in the shooting death of the unarmed Missouri teenager Michael Brown. A grand jury will soon reveal to the nation and a tense community there in Ferguson whether that police officer, whether Darren Wilson will be indicted for shooting and killing Brown in August. Today it just heard testimony from nationally known pathologist Dr. Michael Baden. That is him there heading into the justice center earlier today. Baden was hired by Brown's family, remember, to perform that independent autopsy and that's key because that was the second autopsy on the 18 year old after a local medical examiner performed one, the county prosecutor there. Now we have a little insight into his findings. One of the Brown family attorneys relayed a message from him to Michael Brown's parents. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CRUMP, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: The only thing that Dr. Baden had wished to express to Michael Brown's parents is that, in his preliminary autopsy, he had not been able to determine the shots to the chest, whether they were re-entry wounds or entry wounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So let's talk about the significance here of all of this with criminal defense attorney Peter Odom and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin.

So, Sunny, let me just begin with you because before we get into the minutia, I think it's important just to remind viewers, right, the difference in the findings between Dr. Baden, which we all saw, what, many weeks ago, and the county medical examiner, as it pertains to the shots fired be it at close range or far away.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think there are a lot of similarities between their findings. They both found that there were at least six shots fired. They also both found that two of the shots were two the head, one underneath the right eyebrow and one at the top of the head, which is of note because he was 6'4". And so some people are saying, well, that would mean that he was falling forward, of course. Officer Wilson is saying that that means that he may have been charging. I think where they differ, though, is that Dr. Baden determined that

all of them were not at close range, all of the bullets. And that leads - I think lends some credence to all of the witnesses that are saying he had his hands up when he was shot. He was surrendering.

Now, the other pathologist said that there was a shot in the hand that was at close range, although, again, Dr. Baden found no signs of a struggle. No gunpowder residue on the hand.

BALDWIN: Right.

HOSTIN: And so there is that discrepancy that the grand jury will hear about.

BALDWIN: And we know that Dr. Baden had called to see more evidence. Perhaps he saw it before walking in today. We just don't entirely know.

HOSTIN: Well, and that's interesting because Dr. Baden made it very clear that he had not seen the clothing -

BALDWIN: Right.

HOSTIN: Which, I don't know would be very important about -- when you're talking about a hand wound because he wasn't wearing gloves. I think it's also very important to note that Dr. Baden is a renowned pathologist. We're talking about - he's the guy who chaired the forensic pathology panel that was convened by Congress looking into the re-investigation of the shooting of our president, President Kennedy. So this is the -- these are the big guns, right.

BALDWIN: He is nationally renowned, but nevertheless, Mr. Odom, we do know that he was called, you know, by Michael Brown's family to perform this independent autopsy.

PETER ODOM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

BALDWIN: So that said, my question to you would be, how rare is it to have this, you know, prosecuting attorney, right, this is all the prosecutorial side for this grand jury, to call what essentially boils down to a defense witness?

ODOM: It's very rare. But there's nothing that says you can't do it. And, obviously, the state here thinks that Baden's autopsy is going to help them. I disagree. Frankly, I think that everything about his autopsy corroborates what the officer had to say to the grand jury. The only difference is that Baden didn't find any stipling (ph). He didn't find any gunshot residue evidence on the body. But that doesn't mean that they weren't close range shots. It just means that they weren't inches away or the gun wasn't actually touching his body. But they still could have been as close as three, four inches or a foot away. And that, of course, would be close range in anybody's mind.

Also, he corroborates what the first autopsy said about there being material from the car on the victim and material from the victim on the officer's gun. Very important pieces of corroboration that really support what the officer had to say to the grand jury.

HOSTIN: I'd like to mention something, though, about that. And my -- I didn't understand that Dr. Baden had any information about the gun or the car because I don't think he had the -- that information in front of him. But I think what's interesting is, the government didn't call Dr. Baden, right? Even though the government has made it clear that they want to put everything in front of this grand jury, remember that we learned today that it was the grand jury, one of the grand jurors that asked to hear from Michael Baden. And so I think that is a huge distinction -

ODOM: It is.

HOSTIN: Because if the government's position has always been, wow, we're going to give them everything, why are they now just calling Dr. Baden at the request of the grand jury?

BALDWIN: Can you answer that question? But can you answer that question because that really is it?

HOSTIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: I mean he could be - everything I've read, he could be the final witness, the final piece of testimony in this grand jury before, you know, they decide whether or not they want to pursue, you know, charges against this police officer. Why -- it seems late. Does it seem late or not necessarily?

HOSTIN: Well, it not only seems late, because, again, this grand jury was convened, I think, August 20th. So if you're, as a prosecutor -

BALDWIN: It's November.

HOSTIN: Doing something that in my view is so odd, Brooke. I don't care what anyone says, prosecutors, even in police shootings, do not put every stitch of evidence, including evidence that may not be admissible at trial, in front of a grand jury. And so the fact that they've decided to use that tactic, which is bizarre and really unheard of, tells me that it is even more odd that they wouldn't put in Dr. Baden's autopsy report.

BALDWIN: Peter, do you agree? Just a final thought from you. Do you agree that it is odd, the timing of all of this?

ODOM: I do, but I think if the grand jury asked for it, then they really were under an obligation to bring it and I think it was a wise move to do so. I think this grand jury is going to have a very difficult time charging this officer with any crimes given what we know about what they've heard. Everything corroborates what he's told them.

BALDWIN: We wait to see. The community of Ferguson waits. The nation waits. Peter Odom, thank you. Sunny Hostin, thank you very, very much.

HOSTIN: You bet. BALDWIN: Well, air strikes alone will not be enough to defeat ISIS. Ground troops are need. That is the message not coming from a U.S. military adviser, mind you. This is coming from the head of ISIS. This chilling message in the very same week questions arose about his fate after air strikes hit a convoy of ISIS leaders near Mosul in northern Iraq. So in this audio recording, he taunts the U.S.-led coalition, calling them, quote, "terrified, weak and powerless." And he calls upon ISIS militants everywhere to, quote/unquote, "light the earth with fire upon all tyrants."

Joining me now, Arwa Damon, our CNN senior international correspondent live from Turkey.

And, Arwa, you know, he makes some references which date the audio actually after these air strikes, that we're talking about specifically, after they were carried out. Is that enough to, I guess, end sort of the rumors swirling about his fate? What was your read into this reporting?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, those rumors about his fate, that he'd been injured, came out over the weekend after there were air strikes on a large convoy outside of Mosul where the ministry of defense, that is the Iraqi ministry of defense, alleged that he had been injured. Now, the U.S. has not confirmed that.

There are a few interesting things to point out in this audio message. He does make direct reference to the 1,500 troops that President Obama said would be sent over to Iraq. Although the timing of that right around when the alleged air strikes said to have taken place. But then he also refers to a number of other groups in Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Algeria that pledged allegiance to ISIS just in the last few days. So that seeming to indicate that perhaps this message had been released after those air strikes took place over the weekend.

But, at the same time, one has to keep in mind that before these groups are going to pledge allegiance, they presumably would have reached out to the organization. So there's a slight likelihood that perhaps the audiotape was made before the weekend. At the end of the day, even though we cannot verify its authenticity, it's clear that ISIS, at this stage, wants to use that message to send out a clear signal to its followers that, one, al-Baghdadi is alive and well, and, two, the organization is as strong as ever, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Following all these pieces of news from the U.S. so closely, directly referencing, as you point out, that 1,500 troops, stunning. And then with regard to ISIS, they've also released another video, Arwa, showing these militant in this underground tunnel network claiming it enables them to withstand those air strikes. Tell me about the tunnels. Where do they come from?

DAMON: It's quite interesting that this video was posted on an ISIS website and it not only shows these tunnels being dug in the city of Fallujah, that's in Al Anbar province in Iraq, it also shows a group of ISIS fighters in an underground bunker. The main voice on the audiotape is calling on other ISIS fighters to dig similar bunkers, saying that right now the ground was their protector and effectively saying that this was how they were managing to withstand the U.S. air strikes.

The person on the tape also goes into detail about the height of the tunnels, saying that they were specifically made for a certain height for ease of movement. Also talks about how these bunkers are not just used to hide from air strikes, but also as safe areas where ISIS fighters can rest and relax without fear of being caught up in these air strikes. Now that all being said and done, Brooke, it's most certainly not the first time. We've been seeing militants digging elaborate, underground networks to keep themselves safe.

BALDWIN: Arwa Damon, thank you very much, in Turkey for us tonight.

Just ahead here on CNN, new pictures of that robot currently sitting smack dab on a comet. Something that has never ever been done before. We're now hearing actually more details about the landing, which almost failed.

Plus, Bono on this private jet when a door comes off midflight. Hear what happened next.

And the emotional words, emotional calls from the recent school shooting in that cafeteria in a Washington state high school.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blood is everywhere. I do not see the gun. I need help.

DISPATCHER: What -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need help now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Did you hear what happened to Bono? The U2 singer flying from Dublin to Berlin yesterday. The cargo door on his private Lear jet popped wide open. Hello. Tore off 10 minutes before landing. In fact, we have pictures of the actual jet with said door. Officials say no one was hurt. CNN aviation and government regulation correspondent Rene Marsh is here.

How did that even happen?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Yes, not supposed to happen. We know that, right?

BALDWIN: No.

MARSH: Well, it remains under investigation, Brooke. It could be that the door wasn't properly closed or some sort of part to the door malfunctioned. That -- we still don't know the answer to that at this point. But there were those five passengers who were onboard, including Bono. And the question is, were they in any danger? And in a word, they were not, as scary as this sounds.

This is why. The cabin of the plane, which we're talking about this Lear jet 60, it did not lose pressure at any point. And that is the key here. This plane, it has a luggage compartment that is separate from the cabin. So when the luggage compartment lost the door, it did not have an impact on the pressure of level in the cabin. They didn't lose oxygen. Oxygen masks were not deployed. They were all able to breathe.

Could this have been catastrophic? Yes, it could have been, actually. If that door struck either the tail or the wing of that plane, this may have been a different story.

BALDWIN: I mean, what are the odds?

MARSH: Yes.

BALDWIN: Thank goodness everyone was OK and you say not in danger. I'll take your word for it. Rene Marsh, thank you so much, in Washington for me.

Just ahead, space geeks stay tuned. A robot sitting on a moving comet as I speak. It is possible it could be lost or not. It is anchored down, right? How many times did this thing actually bounce? We're going to get into that with some new pictures.

Also ahead, the big three evening newscasts completely ignoring the remark by this some are calling him architect of Obamacare, suggesting American voters are, his word, "stupid," and making the law confusing, purposefully not transparent was key, he said, to getting it passed. We're going to talk about that coming up.

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BALDWIN: You've watched this show long enough, listen, you know I'm a space geek. You know I've done the whole space camp thing a few times. So this gets me a little excited. What's happened in the last 24 hours has absolutely blown me away. Let's talk about this. Because for the first time ever, a man-made craft landed on a comet. Let me say that again. A man-made craft landed on a comet. This happened Wednesday. New pictures from Philae, this robot, they're out today.

And this is some of the pictures. You may think, OK, maybe it's rock. What's going on here? Apparently the scientists don't even quite know what they're looking at yet. Let's just be transparent on that. But the scientists will say that what you are seeing in the foreground of this photograph is actually part of a robot built today. This is Philae's leg beside a piece of nature that existed before the dinosaurs. So we're talking billions and billions of years ago. There they are, side by side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEAN PIERRE BIBRING, PHILAE LAND SCIENTIST & PRINCIPLE INVESTIGATOR (ph): We were really astonished when we saw that this morning. It felt like a good time to open the champagne again because you saw (INAUDIBLE) something that man built, really, a lander, because you see the foot there, and something that nature built 4.6 billion years ago, which is a comet essentially preserved as it was at that time, containing all the mystery that we are trying to look at. So this is really something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We are witnessing this unprecedented event because of the Rosetta mission. That's the name of the project by the European Space Agency. Team members were all smiles. There's the scene. Some fist pumping, you know, as per usual (ph) in a control room when you're seeing this kind of thing. But the execution, if we're really going to give them a grade, apparently was not entirely perfect if you're trying to land something on a comet, that is. Joining me now, CNN digital correspondent, fellow space geek, Rachel Crane.

And so what I thought was awesome, we were talking about this in the commercial break, you talked to a NASA scientist and the scientist was basically like, listen, this is like hitting a hole in one from, you know, what, the earth to the moon.

RACHEL CRANE, CNN DIGITAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, he likened it from hitting a golf ball here on earth to actually hitting the moon. So, you know, certainly this is -

BALDWIN: Not too shabby.

CRANE: No, not to shabby at all. Nothing to turn your nose up at. But, you know, there were some hiccups involving this mission. At first the lander was in free-fall and it actually hit dead center for where they intended it to be but it actually then bounced back into space because the harpoon system that was onboard, which was supposed to cling this lander to the surface of the comet, because the comet is only 2.5 miles wide, so the gravitational pull is actually quite weak, so it needed to cling itself to the surface.

BALDWIN: The clinging did not happen.

CRANE: The clinging did not happen. It bounced back into space actually for two hours and then it landed again. Bounced back again, a second time. That bounce only took seven minutes. And then it finally landed. It is now on the surface of the comet.

BALDWIN: So, not anchored. Not clinging.

CRANE: It's not clinging.

BALDWIN: The experimenting happens - I mean this is the - 10 years in the making. I don't think we can stress that enough. but it's the kind of thing where they're sort of hurry, hurry, in terms of getting these experiments done.

CRANE: Right.

BALDWIN: Because, at a point, the battery juice runs out, right?

CRANE: Right. The primary battery onboard is only intended to power the lander for two and a half days. Now, there's 10 different instruments onboard. Many experiments that they are going to be running in those first two and a half days. But the location of this lander, where it is now, is actually going to impact the life span of the lander because it's only going to receive about 1.5 hours of sunlight a day now.

BALDWIN: There are solar panels on top of this.

CRANE: Right. The solar panels were going to power it beyond the first two and a half days. Where it intended to land, it would have received about six to seven hours of sunlight a day. So certainly going to compromise the life span of this lander.

BALDWIN: So they're doing all these experiments. And what I've read, and this - I didn't realize this. Maybe you know this - is that one of the big questions among all these scientists is, how did water come to be on this planet, right?

CRANE: Right.

BALDWIN: And so I didn't realize that they're hypostasizing that perhaps it was comets bringing water to earth.

CRANE: Right. So comets are thought of as like dirty snowballs. They're really like time capsules from the beginning of our solar system.

BALDWIN: Crazy.

CRANE: So 4.6 billion years ago. They're thought to hold the secret of how life came to be on earth. How water came to be here on earth. So by studying this comet, they were hoping to get insight into all that. And, you know, they certainly will be able to do that.

Now, one thing that is being compromised about this mission is the drilling system that was onboard of Philae. Because of where it's placed, because of the way that it's placed on the comet right now, they don't want to shake that foundation. They were hoping to drill eight inches into the surface of the comet to study the composition of this comet. Now they're putting that on hold because they don't want to rattle the lander and they don't want it to bounce back into space because only two legs are actually touching the surface of the comet right now. One of them is just floating in space.

BALDWIN: I'm still stuck on the notion of dirty snowballs giving us the water as we now know it.

CRANE: Right.

BALDWIN: And just finally, just briefly, briefly while I have you, what happens to Philae? Does it eventually like burn up the closer to the sun is gets?

CRANE: So, you know, it's not - it's going to become un-operational as a result of this battery power, but also just going to be there on the surface of the comet and the European Space Agency yesterday was saying that there is a - there is an idea of being thrown around to bring Rosetta to the surface of the comet, to reunite Philae and Rosetta so they can, you know, go out in flames together. Who knows if they'll do that.

BALDWIN: That's adorable.

CRANE: Right.

BALDWIN: Rachel Crane, thank you so much.

CRANE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I could ask you a million more questions, but, alas, I cannot. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Just ahead, first, Rand Paul, and now a high profile Democratic senator calling America's war with ISIS illegal. Hear why and what he plans to do about that.

Plus, the heartbreaking story of a soldier hit by a sniper's bullet, paralyzed. He became a critic of America's wars. And as the years went on, he wanted to die. In the past 24 hours, this man got his wish. Hear from him and the love story one talk show host called "remarkable." Do not miss this.

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