Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Serious Allegations against Bill Cosby; Hunt for Large Cat Continues in Paris; The Story of Blaec Lammers

Aired November 14, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Yet, when he asked folks to, quote, "Meme me" -- when a person takes an online pic and alters it -- this is what happened. Hinster put out, "I've been accused of rape by 13 different women." @AJC tweeted, "My two favorite things, Jell-O pudding and rape."

Now one of his past accusers is retelling her story. She talked to CNN's Don Lemon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA BOWMAN, ALLEGED RAPE VICTIM: There are several occasions where I woke up out of a very confused state, not in my clothes. There was an occasion at his brownstone in New York City. Before I knew it, I was with my head over the toilet throwing up. He was holding my hair out of my face while I threw up and I was in a white T-shirt and my panties. He was looming over me in a white robe.

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You never have taken legal action though?

BOWMAN: I didn't.

LEMON: No.

BOWMAN: No, I didn't. Why didn't I? Well, I tried. I told my agent one time. She did not believe me. A friend of mine in '89, took me to an attorney. He laughed me out of the office. At that point, nobody would believe me. He was Dr. Huxtable. Everybody loved him. I loved him. I wanted him to be my dad. But I was so broken down at that point and had gone through so much of having my mind comp completely manipulated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN cannot independently confirm these allegations against Bill Cosby. And a representative of the star did not want to address that fact that past allegations have resurfaced.

But this takes a larger conversation. So joining me now, entertainment and brand strategist, Marvet Britto; and senior media correspondent, host of "Reliable Sources," Brian Stelter.

I think I want to begin with you, Marvet, in terms of certain celebrities. Certain accusations are allegations really tend to tarnish certain celebrities and others such as Bill Cosby forever you look at him and you think of Jell-O and Dr. Huxtable and it doesn't tarnish him. Why?

MARVET BRITTO, ENTERTAINMENT, P.R. & BRAND STRATEGIST: Bill Cosby's life has spoken to his character and integrity and that's what we have to judge him by. These are allegations. No charges have been filed. That's an interesting point and fact to state. I think in this matter, he did become a global father figure to people worldwide through one of the most successful television shows in the history of NBC. I think we have to look and weigh the allegations for what they are. We have an individual speaking about habitual behavior and conduct she alleges happened over and over again but yet those claims and allegations have never been substantiated. Social media is a fertile playground for opinions. As we've said before, perception travels halfway around the world before reality gets out of bed.

So we know that largely he's being convicted in the court of public opinion but I believe that Bill Cosby's character and integrity will speak for itself, unless confirmation of these allegations come forth.

BALDWIN: You make a great point about the power of public opinion and power of the Internet which I want to loop back to. Again, no charges. Thus, no convictions. Yet, you have these different stories, allegations coming from these different women.

Brian Stelter, given that this is now re-percolated and resurfaced -- and he's on his ninth life. This guy's career continues to evolve.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: Impressive, yeah.

BALDWIN: This new show on NBC. Do you think it might falter at all?

STELTER: I would say he's maybe being tried in the court of public opinion. He hasn't been convicted in the court of public opinion. One example of that is that NBC has not said that they'll walk away from this development. They've been developing a big project with him hoping to bring him back into prime time. The network is not commenting on the new commentary that's happened. It's been an interesting week. We had this twitter uproar and then her "Washington Post" op-ed and now she's been on CNN and she's been elsewhere. It's bringing back to light stories that are almost a decade old. "People" magazine, 2006, the headline was "Bill Cosby under fire." These stories in the past have never gotten traction. That might be -- and I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm not excusing it -- people just don't want to believe it when it is someone like Bill Cosby.

BALDWIN: This is what she wrote, "The entertainment world is rife with famous men who use their power to victimize women and silence with them." She goes on, "Even when their victims speak out, the industry and the public turns blind eyes. These men celebrity careers and public adulations continue to climb."

STELTER: It makes it easier to turn that blind eye when there are no charges. It makes it easier for the press, for example, not to follow-up when there are no charges. (CROSSTALK)

BRITTO: I agree. This is someone who has pioneered and championed for the advocacy of family. And so you really have to come with facts if you're going to really make character assassinations toward someone whose life really speaks for itself.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: It sounds like you don't believe any of the women? Right? That you're --

BRITTO: What I believe is that representing celebrities for 20 years that celebrities are magnets for all types of allegations. And celebrities often -- it's very easy for people to be what we call heat seeking missiles. Once one allegation comes forward, they believe that there will be more believable by also hopping on that same train. So, no, I don't believe anyone should not be disregarded for having an incident such as this and serious as this come forward but I do believe she should substantiate these allegations because they are very damaging and if, indeed, there's any truth that that truth should come to light.

My issue, Brooke, is that people tend to be silenced by financial situations where they are able to walk away. And if you really believe that you had been violated, you should stand strong and be very deliberate in ensuring that the truth comes forth.

BALDWIN: Talking to women, they don't feel that power. I can't tell you what happened. I can't stand in her shoes from 30 years ago. Women don't feel they have that power, especially against a huge celebrity to speak out. One perspective, and perhaps it won't be damaging to your point much at all.

Marvet Britto, thank you so much.

Brian Stelter, thank you.

STELTER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And make sure you watch "Reliable Sources" on Sunday.

You'll talk to Ms. Bowman, the accuser here. So press her to some of her points.

STELTER: I'm interested in hearing why she thinks her story didn't get more attention until now.

BALDWIN: Absolutely.

11:00 a.m. eastern on CNN Sunday morning.

Thank you both very much.

STELTER: Thank you. BALDWIN: Parents make an agonizing phone call, suspecting their mentally ill son may kill himself. They call police. He's now in prison, convicted of plotting a shooting in a movie theater. His parent's accusing police of twisting the truth. CNN has an exclusive interview with a family torn apart by mental illness.

Also coming up, the frantic hunt for this wild cat. Have you heard about this? This cat that apparently is so big it's been mistaken by a tiger. How much of a threat does this thing pose? We'll take you to Paris, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The hunt for one mighty big cat roaming around a Paris suburb is done for the day. Search teams found nothing but public sightings of the animal are growing.

Here is CNN's senior international correspondent, Jim Bitterman, in Paris.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: French authorities this evening have pretty much come back from their tiger hunt and called it off. This all began, as you recall, Thursday morning, when the wife of a supermarket manager taking her husband to work spotted a big cat, she said, perhaps a tiger, near the supermarket's parking lot. Officials took a look at the paw prints and experts agree perhaps she was right. So they organized a search party of several hundred police officers and fire officials and animal control officers to search a wooded area very close to the Euro Disney Park, about 15 miles east of Paris. They searched all night long and found nothing. This morning, another sighting. This about five miles away, near an expressway service station. And again, paw prints left behind. So they took another look. The experts took a look at these paw prints and said it was not a tiger but some other kind of large cat, perhaps a lynx. Lynx are native to Europe and a lot smaller and less aggressive than tigers. So authorities this afternoon decided that they were going to downscale the search effort. There's only going to be 10 or 15 searchers this weekend, which is about the normal compliment for the wooded area that's under suspicion east of Paris. But the head police officer did say that people should be vigilant and should probably not go walking in the woods where they are searching.

Jim Bitterman, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Jim Bitterman, thank you.

Coming up next here on CNN, the story of Blaec Lammers, a young man arrested after he brought two assault rifles. Police suspected him of planning to carry out a mass shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BLAEC LAMMERS, ARRESTED IN SHOOTING PLOT: I bought two A.R.s. I didn't tell my mom. She found a receipt in my pocket and she called the sheriff's department and they came and found me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: They found him. He's now in custody after his own parents decided they had to call police on their own son. But now they are wondering if they made the right decision. Our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta sat down with Blaec and his parents. Don't miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: At first blush, this next story will found familiar. Police avert mass murder by a young man who purchased two assault-style weapons. The young man is convicted and sent to prison. His name is Blaec Lammers. He didn't hurt anyone. His parents called police after finding a receipt for a gun.

And our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, dug deeper into this one and he found there is actually much more to Blaec Lammers' story, and it speaks volumes about the fear of another Aurora, Colorado, or Sandy Hook tragedy, the legal system, and a family trying desperately to deal with mental illness.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like other new inmates, he's locked up 23 hours a day. Blaec is 22 years old and I met him at the Jefferson City Correctional Center, the maximum security prison in Missouri that he now calls home.

(on camera): What did you do to get here?

LAMMERS: I bought two A.R.s. I didn't tell my mom. She found a receipt in my pocket and then she called the sheriff's department and they came and found me.

GUPTA (on camera): The interrogation, you were asked lots of questions?

LAMMERS: Yes.

GUPTA: At some point, you said you had intended to cause people harm?

LAMMERS: Yes. And the detective, he came out of nowhere and said I was going to threaten a movie theater. I just started agreeing with him because I knew, either way, he would charge me with something.

GUPTA (voice-over): Police eventually did charge Lammers with making a terrorist attack, first-degree assault, armed criminal action.

(on camera): Would you have hart anybody?

LAMMERS: No.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMMERS: I would hurt myself before I hurt someone else.

GUPTA: Whole it's impossible to know what was going on inside Blaec Lammer's mind when he bought those guns, we do know, in this incident, he didn't hurt anyone.

No doubt, he's had a troubled past. In 2011, he pled guilty to an assault at his co-worker in a mail facility. In 2009, he was arrested in Walmart carrying a butcher knife. He told a psychologist he had thought about killing a woman there.

TRICIA LAMMERS, MOTHER OF BLAEC LAMMERS: He said, I just want to get on with my life.

GUPTA: His parents, Tricia and Bill Lammers, say that was in the past and they agreed to talk about it, including the day they called the police on their own son.

TRICIA LAMMERS: I gathered up his clothes from the bathroom floor and came upstairs and was going through his pockets and I found a receipt from Walmart that he had bought a weapon for $865. I immediately went out in the garage. I called Bill. I said, what do we do?

GUPTA (on camera): Was that the concern that he was going to hurt somebody?

TRICIA LAMMERS: My concern is he would take the guns and kill himself.

GUPTA: You decide to call the authorities?

TRICIA LAMMERS: The next day, Thursday morning, I went to the sheriff's department with the receipt.

GUPTA (voice-over): According to police documents, Blaec's mother was concerned that her son would shoot people in a movie theater. She says, not true, that they had twisted her words. She claims all she said was that the gun looked like the one used by James Holmes in the Aurora, Colorado, shooting. She told me she wasn't worried about a mass homicide but rather a lonely suicide.

(on camera): What did they say to you?

TRICIA LAMMERS: They said, OK, thank you for coming. He didn't seem like he was too concerned. Said, OK, thank you.

GUPTA: Why did they put him in jail?

TRICIA LAMMERS: They said they were doing a well-being check so they picked him up at sonic and said we need to take you to the police station for questioning.

GUPTA (voice-over): And in an instant, the lives of this family changed forever. Within minutes of meeting Blaec, you can feel and hear and see the

cause of his parents' worry. He was a broken kid. Lots of smiles but lots of pain.

LAMMERS: Trying too hard to fit in with other people. At one point, my sophomore year in high school, for a whole semester, from August to September, I ate my lunch in the bathroom because I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anybody that ate lunch at that time.

GUPTA: It's sad.

LAMMERS: Looking back, I should have at least tried to talk to people but I was shy in high school. I was afraid to talk to someone because of what I would say and how it would come out.

TRICIA LAMMERS: He played football and basketball and karate.

GUPTA: Diagnosed with dyslexia as a child, he struggled in school but he eventually succeeded. By ninth grade, he made the Deans List and was a 4.0 student. And seemingly overnight, it all went downhill and fast.

BILL LAMMERS, FATHER OF BLAEC LAMMERS: Within six months, it went from wonderful to, what is going on? We've got a serious problem.

GUPTA: Soon, he was in and out of hospitals. Within just a couple of years, he was diagnosed with a dozen different psychiatric illnesses, mood disorder, major depression, schizoid personality. So when he bought the guns, his parents felt they had to step in. They saw their son as a patient, but authorities saw that same troubled boy and concluded he should be a prisoner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have homicidal thoughts?

LAMMERS: I did when I was 16.

GUPTA: His mother thinks Blaec was a gullible kid and easily led because of his mental illness. But prosecutors say he had a real plan to kill. He just didn't get a chance to carry it out. They believed they prevented a tragedy.

Psychologist John Phillips treated Blaec at this hospital when he was 17.

(on camera): Were you concerned that he was a threat?

JOHN PHILLIPS, PSYCHOLOGIST: In the four months he was at the hospital, he was the model resident.

GUPTA: Did you ever feel that he was potentially a harm to others? That was the concern it seemed.

PHILLIPS: I never once felt that he would ever try to hurt anyone on purpose. He wasn't a malicious child. I think that he never acted out any of those threats. He never once was violent in any way.

GUPTA: How do you distinguish the kid who was just talking, being a teenager, versus some one who can go out and do some serious harm?

PHILLIPS: You have to find out what is going on in their head and you have to be able to assess whether their behavior is neurologically based and based on an environmental reaction, or whether they are actually sociopathic where they actually don't care about anybody. They just care about what they want.

GUPTA: Is that the distinction you see with Blaec?

PHILLIPS: Oh, absolutely.

GUPTA: He's being treated as a criminal mind --

PHILLIPS: Exactly.

GUPTA: -- but he has an autistic mind.

PHILLIPS: Exactly. I think because of his history of threatening, they kind of put it all of the way to the other extreme and really never gave him a chance to be rehabilitated. And where he is now, there's no chance of him being rehabilitated.

GUPTA: Do you think prison is the right place for him?

PHILLIPS: Absolutely not.

GUPTA (voice-over): Blaec also saw a psychiatrist who had concerns.

UNIDENTIFIED PSYCHOLOGIST: We kept a very close watch on him.

GUPTA: He told us his relationships were falling apart and he often talked about violence. Even so, he agrees that Blaec does not belong in jail.

Neither of these men that treated him were asked to testify at his trial. Would it have made a difference? We'll never know.

His parents have been shouting from the rooftops that their son is mentally ill and belongs in a hospital, not a prison.

TRICIA LAMMERS: I went to the authorities for help and for them to just keep an eye on my son. I did not go there for the intention of him to be arrested.

GUPTA (on camera): Do you think that Blaec would have hurt anybody with these guns?

BILL LAMMERS: No.

GUPTA: Do you think that could have ever happened?

TRICIA LAMMERS: No.

GUPTA: Did Blaec blame you because you went to the authorities?

TRICIA LAMMERS: No. GUPTA: What are conversations like with him?

TRICIA LAMMERS: I have a letter he wrote me. "I have nothing but time. We both can get through this. Just don't lose hope. This is a very important time in our lives. We can do this together so promise me you'll stop blaming yourself for all of this."

GUPTA: Lucid, compassionate, thoughtful.

TRICIA LAMMERS: Yeah.

GUPTA (voice-over): Just one hour with a person isn't enough to really understand what's running through their mind. But as jarring as it is to say out loud, it seems entirely possible that Blaec's only crime here is having a mental illness.

(on camera): Your life now here in this prison, is there anything about it that makes sense to you?

LAMMERS: This place is supposed to help you. I don't think it is. I think prison is supposed to keep you away from society because society is scared of you.

GUPTA: Should they be scared of you, Blaec?

LAMMERS: For what I said? Yes. For actual me, me. No. I didn't do anything to harm anybody out there. I was just an average 20-year-old kid living in a small town.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Sanjay Gupta.

In case you were wondering, Blaec's attorney did not attempt an insanity defense, too hard to pull off. They told Sanjay there was much more to the story. Set your DVR right now for "Sanjay Gupta, M.D.," this weekend, Saturday, at 4:30 p.m. eastern, and Sunday at 7:30 in the morning, right here on CNN for more on his story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)