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Bill Cosby Faces Sexual Assault Allegations; Conversation Between Police And Dispatch In Michael Brown Shooting Surfaces; Ebola Patient To Land In Nebraska Shortly; New Video Appears To Show Russian Tanks, Artillery, Air Defense Systems and Troops Moving Across Ukrainian Border; Michael Bloomberg's Comments On College Attendees; Kim Kardashian Shows Her Rear End

Aired November 15, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you live today from Atlanta.

We begin with very serious accusations haunting one of America's most well-known comedian, Bill Cosby, yet again facing sexual assault allegations that first surfaced nearly a decade ago, allegations that Cosby has always denied. The comedian and his wife and he were asked about it during an interview on NPR.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: This question gives me no pleasure, Mr. Cosby, but there have been serious allegations raised about you in recent days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Coming up, Cosby's surprising answer, and we'll tell you how one of his accusers is responding.

And for the first time we're hearing conversation between the police and dispatch around the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. This is August 9th, not long after officer Darren Wilson shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown. A St. Lois newspaper has released the sound of the police dispatcher sending Wilson to that neighborhood telling him there is a report of a shoplifting. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 25. It's going to be a black male in a white t- shirt. He is running toward Quik Trip. He took a whole box of Swisher cigars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Black male, white t-shirt?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's affirmative. She said he just walked out the store.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That recording also capture's police reaction to the shooting and then calling for back-up.

Our Sara Sidner is live for us in Ferguson. He has been covering the story throughout.

Sara, thanks for joining us. Let's first talk about the tape. What more do you think, if anything, do we really learn from these recordings?

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not a whole lot except for what the family points out and according to the St. Louis post dispatch sources that indeed officer Wilson did not have that information when he made his initial contact with Michael Brown and Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson. Only after did he get some of that information about exactly what the suspect who had stolen the cigarillos, according to the police, looked like and what he had on.

And so, the family has reacted to that, just now sending out a statement saying that the audio clearly demonstrates that the officer's initial interaction with Brown had nothing to do with the incident at the convenience store. There is that.

There is also something else that has been released and that is some surveillance videotape of Officer Wilson going in and out of the department after this incident on August 9th. And what you will see in that video, there was a lot of sources. There were a few people, information leaked from the police department saying that Officer Wilson was beaten up, that his eye socket was, you know, bruised and battered. That was taken back by the police department when asked about it. But some sources had said that initially.

And if you look on that video, you will not see that. You will not see any bruises, any major swelling of his eye, for example. And the family has also talked about that. Initially talking about the fact that they felt like the department -- someone in the department was trying to defame Michael Brown and cover up something for the police themselves.

The police did, though, come and correct that information saying that there was no physical, for example, bruises around his eye socket which had initially been leaked from inside of the department through some of the media outlets.

I do also want to talk a little bit about something that came out last night where some of the media here locally had reported that the police chief here was going to immediately reinstate Wilson if, indeed, he is not indicted. We talked to the police chief and the mayor about that to get some clarification. And here is what the mayor said about the possibility that Darren Wilson would be immediately reinstated if indeed he is not indicted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JAMES KNOWLES, FERGUSON, MISSOURI: This is a criminal investigation that talks about things that rise to the level of criminality. It doesn't mean there may not be something still a concern to address in an internal personnel investigation. SIDNER: So if breaking policy rules or something like that.

KNOWLES: Sure, sure. And so, this again, I guess that it is just I think it's premature to talk about what the status would be until all that stuff has been addressed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Now, earlier this past month CNN talked to the police chief himself about this very thing and here is what the police chief had to say about the possibility of reinstating Wilson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF THOMAS JACKSON, FERGUSON MISSOURI POLICE DEPARTMENT: If he's not indicted, then I, you know, I have an officer-involved shooting. So once the criminal case is over with, then, I'll ask for all the materials back, you know, they're mine. And then we'll conduct an internal investigation to see if there were any internal rules broken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: So clearly, there would not be an immediate release according to both the mayor and the police chief. Of course that creates a lot of consternation here. People not knowing what is going to happen. But really, what is happening in this town is that everyone is waiting simply for the grand jury to make a decision and have that decision announced. After that, we'll see what happens -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And I think that everyone is hoping whatever happens, whatever reaction is handed, the reaction is peaceful on both sides.

Sara Sidner, thanks so much.

Well, sometime within the next couple of hours the next Ebola patient to be treated in the United States will land in Nebraska. Dr. Martin Salia will be treated at the bio-containment unit at Nebraska medical center in Omaha. Salia who is married to a U.S. citizen had been treating Ebola patients in his native Sierra Leone. He was one -- which is, of course, one of three West African nations hardest hit by Ebola.

Meanwhile, the democratic Republic of Congo has declared itself Ebola- free after 42 days without an incident there. That country's smaller outbreak was not related to the wider outbreak in West Africa.

Joining us now to discuss all of this, the latest is CNN's medical analyst Dr. Seema Yasmin.

Thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.

DR. SEEMA YASMIN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Thank you for having me.

HARLOW: Let's talk about the outbreak because it has been going on for months and months in West Africa. And of course, much more attention has been paid to it since we started treating Ebola patients on U.S. soil. But give a sense at this point, Seema, if you would on how it is going in West Africa in terms of treating it. Because all the experts here say you cannot contain this really until you have a handle on it here.

YASMIN: Absolutely. We have to control the outbreak in West Africa in the hopes of stopping any more spread to different countries. The situation right now and Dr. Freiden, director of CDC told Elizabeth Cohen this yesterday, the outbreak is still spreading in West Africa.

In fact, what we are seeing now is potential spread to some neighboring countries, for example, Mali. There was a Guinean man who traveled to Mali, fell sick and died from Ebola there which transported back to Guinea for burial and it wasn't discovered he had Ebola until health care workers who cared for him in Mali started to fall sick.

So it really showed you have to be very, very vigilant here about stopping the spread early in isolating patient the quickly as possible.

HARLOW: And you know what I'm interested to know your perspective on this. You're a former CDC disease detective. I mean, you have this unique perspective. Has there been a decline in health care workers from west going to West Africa to help because there was a lot of concern that if man for quarantine were put in place et cetera and since we have seen people contracting the disease and coming back to the U.S., is there might be a decline. Do we know?

YASMIN: I talked to some doctors here in the states who said, look. I was going to go and help with the Ebola outbreak response in December or in January. But now, I don't know how I would be treated when I come back. I talked to some other doctors in the northeast state who said I have taken 21 days off work to go and help, but I can't afford to take another 21 days off when I return to be quarantined. So there are kinds of policy beyond certainly around policy definitely. It makes more people uncertain and just makes it more difficult for them to go and help.

HARLOW: Yes. And we really needed as many people there helping as we possibly can.

Dr. Seema Yasmin, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.

YASMIN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Well, America's top military's top leader is in Iraq on a surprise visit. General Martin Dempsey met today with Iraqi prime minister al-Abadi, also with U.S. ambassadors Stuart Jones and of U.S. troops. The United States is preparing to expand the assistance on the ground there for Iraqi forces that continue to battle ISIS.

President Obama has increased the number of American non-combat forces in the country. But Dempsey has refused to rule out asking the president to send ground troops in Iraq.

Russia's president, meantime, did not get a very warm reception as he arrived in the G-20 Summit in Australia. One world leader told Vladimir Putin to his face, get out of Ukraine. We're live from Kiev with more ahead.

Also, this story, Bill Cosby once known as America's dad, a beloved comedian, but in a new interview he had to answer questions about multiple allegations of rape. How did he respond? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: NATO is calling this Moscow's latest incursion in a rapidly deteriorating situation in Ukraine. Video that surfaced this week appears to show Russian tanks, artillery, air defense systems, and troops moving across the Ukrainian border, but Russia is denying those claims.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

HARLOW: Listen to that. This as we get a rare view inside the fighting in eastern Ukraine, a gun battle at the airport in Donetsk between the Ukrainian forces and separatists armed that supported by Russia.

And as world leaders meet in Brisbane, Australia for the G-20 summit, Russian president Vladimir Putin is getting what some are calling a very icy reception. Aids to Canada's prime minister say that he told Putin quote "I guess I will shake your hand but you need to get out of Ukraine."

Let's bring in OSCE monitor and spokesman Michael Bociurkiw. He is on the ground there in Kiev.

Michael, thank you for being with us. You have been covering this throughout. For months and months now, you've been there. You've seen this first hand. Can you compare for us the situation there, especially on the border, the escalation now to earlier this fall?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, SPOKESMAN, OSCE MONITORING: Sure. Good to be with you again, Poppy.

Well, as you know, we arrived here in April. We grew (INAUDIBLE) a number of people up to -- are growing up to 500 now, top with our monitors and now in Eastern Ukraine. So, we are in a really, really good position to see things that others don't.

So at the beginning, you recall, we were talking, you know, late spring about just the kind of subtle takeover or occupation of buildings in eastern Ukraine. Then the second kind of phase was the buildup of heavy weaponry including mobile rocket launchers. And then, today or yesterday rather, we saw something which we haven't yet reported on ever, Poppy, and that is uniformed men in Luhansk who had Russian federation patches right on their uniforms walking freely about the city. And that capped the week of which we saw three separate times huge unmarked military convoys coming toward Donetsk city.

And Poppy, these are no ordinary trucks. They're towing 120 millimeter (INAUDIBLE) artillery and mobile rocket launch systems. So, really big buildup and heaviest shelling as your piece said in weeks in Donetsk.

HARLOW: You know, American general Philip Breedlove, the commander of NATO forces, and you know mentioned this week that Russia has nuclear capabilities. Bringing that up, I want you to listen up and then respond on the backside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. PHILIP BREEDLOVE, NATO FORCES COMMANDER: We see forces that are capable of being nuclear that are being moved to Crimea. Whether they're not, we do not know. But they do have the kind of equipment there that could support that mission if required.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That, fall in line, Michael, with what your team are seeing?

BOCIURKIW: Well, we haven't seen indications of nuclear or there have also been allegations of prosperous weapons because he was referring to Crimea. And you know, we're not even permitted to monitor there. But again, what we are seeing is gradual, gradual build of that heavy weaponry.

Now Poppy, I have to also point out that there is a glimmer of hope, if you can, in this, you know, this time of very, very bad news coming out of Eastern Ukraine. And there is ton on information, Poppy, joint center for control and coordination in Donetsk called blast. And this is kind of informal information of Russian general staff, Ukraine general staff. And we're monitoring their activities. And they just announce that they will aim to promote a ceasefire within two days. Remove of heavy weaponry a few days after. Whether it will work or not, we don't know. But it is interesting this formation is busy, the Ukrainian side, Russian side working together to trying to get a last- minute deal together.

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for the perspective on the ground there of you that many of us certainly done have.

Michael Bociurkiw, good to have you on the program again. Thank you.

BOCIURKIW: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: Well, Bill Cosby has seen his reputation ripped to shreds this week. And the comedy legend has a chance to speak about it with NPR in an interview. You're going to want to hear how he responded to the allegations. That's next.

But first this is the last weekend to vote for your favorite CNN hero of the year. This week we want you to meet CNN hero Annette March- Grier. Will she get your final vote? Here is her story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sugar nuggets, French friars and a milk shake. My daddy ordered the same thing as me. That is my daddy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son's father, he was murdered. Their bond, it was just a bond a lot of kids don't have with their father.

ANNETTE MARCH-GRIER, CNN HERO: I love my city. I have lived here all of my life, but people here are living crisis after crisis. I believe that the violence in this city and grief are directly connected.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel sad that somebody hurt my dad.

MARCH-GRIER: A child can be very different from adult. They can easily lose their identity and their security and that shift can be very dangerous.

There you go. Write your feelings. How are you feeling today?

Our program provides that safe place for a child to recover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got another one.

MARCH-GRIER: Our volunteers help the children explore their feelings.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you choose red?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was angry when my dad passed away.

MARCH-GRIER: And talk about healthy ways of coping.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get that anger out.

MARCH-GRIER: We teach our children that it is OK to cry.

His brother died so he's feeling very, very sad.

Grief is truly a public health problem. We've tot begin to address it.

Coping is how we deal with our families. We're giving families a sense of hope. We're helping to heal wounds and bring families back together again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: On twitter this week, comedian Bill Cosby or whoever runs his social media accounts asked fans to take part in captions contests. But it backfired in a big way. It produced a slew of pictures on twitter like these, dredging up more than a dozen allegations of rape.

And in the days that followed decade-old allegations are once again in the spotlight and now Cosby's special appearance on this Wednesday's "Late Show with David Letterman" has been canceled. No word on who canceled, Cosby or the show. But our Alexandra Field has more on the allegations and how Cosby's

interview with NPR is raising eyebrows.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FILED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For years allegations of rape have plagued Bill Cosby. Given the chance to address them he said nothing and a lot is being said about that. From twitter, Cosby was on NPR with Camille to not talk about those rape allegations and Bill Cosby's refusal to answer revealed more than any other words could. Still painful to watch a cornered bully cower.

Those tweets in response to this interview with NPR's Scott Simon.

SCOTT SIMON, NPR HOST: This question gives me no pleasure Mr. Cosby. But there have been serious allegations raised about you in recent days. You're shaking your head no. I'm in the news business. I have to ask the question. Do you have any response to those charges? Shaking your head, no. There are people who love you who might like to hear about this. I want to give you a chance. All right?

FIELD: Simon promoted the interview on twitter saying, he asked about rape charges. Listen and decide if he says yes or no. After the interview, Simon tweeted I hated to have to ask about charges in front of Mrs. Cosby. One must responded leave Bill Cosby alone. Another says I know there might be legal ramifications if he speaks out but being silent sure makes you look guilty.

The internet lit up with the tags on Cosby earlier this week after the comedian invited followers to mean him or caption classic pictures. Here are some of the responses.

"My two favorite things, Jello pudding and rape."

"Look at this whacky shirt I'm wearing. Also I'm a serial rapist."

Cosby has never been charged with a crime. His lawyers have repeatedly denied allegations made years ago when several women came forward claiming they have been sexually assaulted by Cosby, among them, Barbara Bowman.

BARBARA BOWMAN, ACCUSED BILL COSBY OF RAPE: After going to my agent and going to the lawyer and getting smacked down both sides I just said let me just get on with my life, move on with my life and let it go.

FIELD: Bowman believes Cosby's silence says it all. A simple shake of his head is implication of a man whose heart is heavily burdened with shame.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Alexandra Field, thank you for that report.

We're going have much more on Cosby's fall from grace ahead. Next, our contributors discuss the latest allegations and what they

mean. Stick ahead. You won't want -- stick around. You won't want to miss this. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hello and welcome. I'm Sunny Hostin joined today by my friends, Sally Kohn, Margaret Hoover, and Mel Robbins.

And over the next 30 minutes we're discussing the biggest talkers of the week. Guess what's first up, Bill Cosby.

A PR disaster is one thing, but what does it mean when one of America's favorite entertainers is exposed as a possible rapist? And the big question, why did it take so long for most Americans to even hear about this? You've heard his accuser. She stuck to her story that the man known as America's dad drugged and raped her.

Let's talk about it. Margaret, what's your take?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I have to start out by saying I'm one of these kids that grew up in the '80s and wasn't allowed to watch television except for 30 minutes as week. And that 30 minutes that I got, I had to say at the beginning of the week, what I wanted to watch and it was always ""the Cosby show.""

You know, I was not original. I was not unique. There is the thing called the Huxley effect, right? This was a normal African-American middle class, upper middle class family being piped into living rooms across the country and it did extraordinary things for race relations from this country in the 1980s because suddenly there was this fostered cultivation of mainstream understanding of different backgrounds, an African-American family like.

And I think what happens is you hear this notion that there's an accuser. Bill Cosby could be an accuser, and somehow honoring the accusations of those victims might undermine the contribution he gave to race relations to Americans at that time. And so, it can be easier to not listen to them. I think for fear of the progress that was made in that time.

HOSTIN: And Sally, do you think that's why we haven't heard more about it? Because let's face it, this is not just one accuser, right? There is a chorus of voices here.

SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: There's 13 that we know of so far, right? And look. I mean, there is certainly this kind of veil of celebrity in these kinds of celebrated figures. We think, no. Like the only kind of people who do those things are bad people who live in bad neighborhood.

And so, part of it is when we talk about sexual assault and rape, having a conversation affected a lot of men do it across race, across socioeconomic celebrities, non-celebrities, people in Congress. Come on. The other thing that's incredibly troubling about this is you are right, these accusations have been around for a long time, from a large number of women. We are only having this conversation arguably right now in this moment because a few weeks ago, a male comedian (INAUDIBLE) validated those comments by calling Cosby a rapist. Why is it took a man for us all to believe this rape

HOSTIN: That's a great point.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR/LEGAL ANALYST: It is a great point. And you know, I think Margaret also pointed to something which is really important which is, you know, when you look at the Huxtable (ph) family, right, and he looks like the perfect dad, a lot of the reasons why victims of sex crimes never come forward is because they feel that they never going to be believed.

So, this is just yet another example of like the untouchable father, this one being on television. And who wouldn't believe him? The 13 women just, so everybody knows, there was a lawsuit in 2005 that was brought by Andrea (INAUDIBLE) and they name 12 Jane Does (ph). One of them even talk to the "Today" show in 2006. We've got Barbara now all over CNN taking and --.

HOSTIN: But she seems credible.

ROBBINS: Well, my question is what the hell is going to happen to him? I mean, what about this new show on NBC?

HOOVER: This is what -- I mean, I think the audience viewers have to look at these -- the word. They have to judge the entirety of the accusations with their own eyes. That you can look at Barbara and see if she seems sincere. She certainly seems sincere. But it is not just one person against Bill Cosby. I mean, the critical masses like there have been so many voice whose stories and financially all corroborated.

ROBBINS: Well, you know, in the court of law, who knows where this would get out. But in the court of common sense, he's guilty in my mind. But Sally, should he lose the NBC show?

KOHN: Absolutely, yes. I mean, look. How is it? How is it that time and time again, these accusations come up against that credible accusation? The man's career survive. Whereas the women who made the accusations, they are shamed, they're relegated to the corners of history and society and business. So you know, look at Anita Hill versus Clarence Thomas. She is still Supreme Court justice. Look at Bill Clinton versus Monica Lewinsky. I mean, we've all heard how horrible Monica Lewinsky's life has been over that last past decade. Bill Clinton's life sounds pretty great. David Letterman, David Letterman, dozens I believe, have come out accusing him of sexual harassment. Hasn't hurt his career one bit.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: And I think -- to your point, I think that is a fascinating point. Because how does Bill Cosby survive this, if he survive? And you're saying he should lose the show.

ROBBINS: Hello, yes. He should lose the show.

HOSTIN: And David Letterman, he supposed to be on the "the day with David Letterman show" this week. Now he is being replaced by (INAUDIBLE). We don't know who sort of made that change.

Margaret, you know, does this get in front of this? Does this all go away? What happens now? Is it a culture now?

HOOVER: So a recent example of this, right, where there was an accusation against a very prominent man with Woody Allen. Woody Allen had character witnesses take the press on his behalf. Really were counting and really making a story on his behalf. He created his own chorus of voices, really, around him giving his versions of events. And then he took to the pages of "the New York Times" editorial board. He wrote a very long piece on Sundays. He said this is the last time I'm going to discuss it, but here is my side of the story.

And it really has gone away. People made their own judgment and he continues to make movies. But it is the court of public opinion that will decide this. I think Bill Cosby not acknowledging, even acknowledging this on NPR today, there has be -

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: That was so fascinating. I mean, he just shaking his head, no, not responding. And will we hear a response?

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: If I were his PR agent, I would advise him to get ahead of the story because -- I mean, I don't know if he can get ahead at this point. But he does need to do something, I think. Because I think, finally, there are voices of his accusers are starting to get a little bit attraction.

ROBBINS: Can NPR stop apologizing for asking him that question?

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: Because this shows that the men can seem to wait this out and the story goes away as to the accusers. And that could be troubling to all of us.

HOSTIN: We'll see. I think it is something that we are going to continue talking about, right?

Well, our next is college for everyone? New York's former mayor, Mayor Bloomberg, says no. Some kids just might be better off becoming plumbers. Is that spare coming from the billionaire who went to Harvard (ph)? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOOVER: Welcome back. I'm Margaret Hoover talking with Sally, Sunny and Mel here. And now, we are going to talk about Michael Bloomberg who infuriated

some folks this week with comments about who should and should not go to college.

The former mayor of New York said quote "today, if you want your kid to go to college or become a plumber you've about got to think long and hard about it. If he's not going to go to great school and he's not that smart academically, but he's smart in terms of dealing with people and that sort of thing, being a plumber is great job because you have pricing power, you have an enormous skill set."

Now of course, mayor Bloomberg did go to college, two prestigious universities, John Hopkins University and Harvard Business school. Now he's a billionaire.

But does Michael Bloomberg have a point? Are there some people who are better off avoiding college altogether? I know this panel has a very diverse side of opinion. I can't help myself now. I know you want to go and you are talking at a bit. You disagree. You agree with the mayor.

ROBBINS: I agree with the mayor.

HOOVER: Why? Why should people avoid go to college?

ROBBINS: Well, look. If you're ready for college and if you're going the use your degree, yes, you should go. But for kids that are not college ready and kids that want to pursue something like plumbing, like being an electrician, like learning how to fix engines, they shouldn't go to college. They shouldn't wreck up $28,000 in debt on average and spent four years out of the workforce. They should go to a trade school and they should earn the skill because they are going to make more money as a skilled technician than they would as a high school or a college dropout. And only 10 percent of kids that head to a two-year associate's degree actually complete it because they are not ready.

So I think he does have a very smart point about saying, hey, wait a minute. Don't just push your kids there. Have a conversation about what actually is going to set them up for success.

HOSTIN: I could not disagree more with Mel, my friend, and with Mayor Bloomberg. The bottom line is that I feel that that speech is sort of the epiphany of white privilege. As a person of color in the United States, education is the great equalizer. Without a four-year degree, there is no way that this sort of permanent underclass of people can succeed.

And the suggestions somehow that because folks may not be ready, they shouldn't go to college, the real issue then is make sure they're ready. Make sure that our public schools are teaching. Make sure that education is available for everyone. Make sure the funding id available. But to suggest that it is always going to be better if you can't get into a great school like Harvard or perhaps, you know, a good people person, you should be a plumber, I think is just ludicrous. It is about white privilege. ROBBINS: (INAUDIBLE) that you think being a plumber is then worthy or

being successful. I really do. Like you can goal the business, you can be your own boss. You can be an entrepreneur. I have cousins that are plumbers, that fix engines for a living and they are very successful businessmen.

HOOVER: I'm not quite sure if he is casting judgment on that as much as you are saying --

ROBBINS: She is offended by the suggestion.

HOSTIN: I am offended by the suggestion that you shouldn't go to college, that you shouldn't aspire to do --

ROBBINS: He didn't say anything about not aspiring. And said stop and think about which is the better path to success. And I do think that --

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: Let me introduce statistics here in this conversation.

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: Here we go. Ninety-eight percent are more likely to earn over your lifetime have closer to a million dollars in earning if you go to a four-year university. You, if -- in 2013, actually, people who went to four-year universities -- I'm sorry, there is 98 percent more than those without a college degree.

HOSTIN: If they finish.

HOOVER: Correct. They have to finish. Sally to you --

(CROSSTALK)

KOHN: Look, let me interject. Part of this would be an interesting a different conversation. We are talking about making college more affordable and it says part of being successful. But also, there's another irony to Bloomberg saying this which is he is, not only is he a billionaire, he's the guy who didn't want to race minimum wage in New York, who attack unions, who made it harder for these kinds of working class jobs, good jobs to actually pay, to be able to actually have a decent living. Isn't there some profound irony in there?

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: He the author of the huge foundation that gives millions and millions and millions of dollars doing fund public education and to train super intensive in principals and teachers. But that's a whole other issue. I mean, I guess where I have a fundamental problem with is that, you can't define success simply be saying it is only for people with the four-year college degree, you just can't.

HOSTIN: Come on.

ROBBINS: And I think you can be a great human being and a successful person without aspiring to go to college.

HOOVER: Surely, you can. But here is my question for you. Can our economy sustain those kinds of jobs for that many people?

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: Mayor Bloomberg is talking almost like more an idealistic time in our country where we actually had a manufacturing

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: Can I answer that question? You should go to college and be an engineer. Because those are only jobs that are coming available down the pipelines.

HOSTIN: Can we also point out that college it's not only about learning the skill, right? It is not only about making more money. There is a great socialization period when you are at college. There is a growth period. And the people that you go away with, these like- minded people, are those people that can help you in business.

The reason that Bloomberg is a gazillionaire (ph) is through all of the connections he made at John Hopkins University and the connections he made in Harvard. That's a significant part of it. And to say that a group of people just shouldn't do that is just some --

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: Diversity of opinions. The jury's out on that. You all can decide.

And with those so many serious problems that we have in the world, this week online, there is one thing that on one could stop talking about, Kim Kardashian to be more specific, her naked boodie (ph) on the cover of a magazine. We are talking about breaking the Internet ahead. Stick with us.

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KOHN: Our next topic, I can't believe we're about to talk about, Kim Kardashian showed off her, let's just say assets this week on the front page of "Paper" magazine in all her glory, another chop showed here with a glass of champagne porch on her rear end. The magazine has entitled "Break the Internet," pretty obvious.

Anyway, and Kim do that but it gets the Internet attention and that -- here is the kicker. Listen to Kardashian on her reality show "Keeping up with the Kardashians" about three years ago were talking about another photo shoot, this one for "W" magazine.

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KIM KARDASHIAN, REALITY TV STAR: They promised me I would be fully covered. Did you see the inside? I just am never getting naked again, like whoever is running my (bleep) is going to be fired -- everyone. I obviously knew what I was getting myself into. I was posing nude.

I don't want people to be like all she's good for, you know, being naked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOHN: That was a whole three years ago, though. So things change.

Sunny, what the heck -- what you think she is doing? You know, is this wrong that we are even -- we are even click on this? We are discussing it like -- what do you think?

HOSTIN: I clicked as well. You know, I was actually shocked because I sometimes think that the reason a woman would subject herself like is because one, she needs money, right? Or two, she's looking for fame.

And Kim Kardashian has that. She has a lot of money. She's famous. And I started to think, I think I'm wrong now -- but I started to think, well, Kim is actually smart because there are a lot of people who have porn tapes and there are a lot of people that post nude and they don't build this kind of empire. And so I thought, wow, she has to be a really savvy businesswoman. She started with the porn and now has got the reality show. She has all this other stuff. But now I'm thinking she's not smart. This is just pornographic. Like this is --

ROBBINS: I personally think she's brilliant. I mean, look, in three years' time, she had a baby, so we all change about how we feel about our body. I love the fact that she loves her body. I love the fact that she is not ashamed of her sexuality. I love the fact that she is bold in that regard. And look, she's not going to work for CNN, that's not her brand. She started out with a sex tape.

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ROBBINS: She has a reality show where they talk about anal bleaching, for crying out loud. I don't even know it I can say that on this. She blew millions on her wedding, was divorced within 80 days and she is no role model. She's a businesswoman. The product is Kim Kardashian.

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ROBBINS: She's laughing all the way to -- I don't want that job, but she's a smart businesswoman.

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HOOVER: Like shame on us for clicking on this. Shame on us for talking about it, but I think there are deeper consequences culturally that we are going to get to. Obviously, this is a woman who -- she is famous for being famous, right? And if that's it, then you always have to push the envelope. You always have to be thinking of something new. Nobody is going to hold her out for being a hypocrite. Really, they are still going to make the click and that's what she needs, right? So she just continues to push the envelope. She continues to go further and further. But when is enough? As long as these are clip are coming and this, you know, this broke the Internet.

But what is still fascinates me, Sunny, is what you pointed out. You caught on to some really deeper cultural resonances that has really escaped to most of analysis.

HOSTIN: And I got to tell you when I first took the picture, I knew about the original photo which was in '76. Let's put this up. This was an African-American woman, Caroline Beaumont. And people in the African-American community were horrified at how the African-American woman was objectified by this particular photographer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Same photographer in both pictures.

HOSTIN: And he also photographed Grace Jones and -- this is not it.

KOHN: This is not the original photograph of the Kim Kardashian -- anyway, we'll get that up in a second.

HOSTIN: This photographer is known for objectifying in particular black woman. And so, I was so horrified that Kim Kardashian, as the mother of a black child, a girl, would go so far as to if this is her brand, why not do the research, Kim? Why not realize that this photographer is known for objectifying black women.

KOHN: Let's fill this out a little bit for folks. I don't think we pulled up the picture, but there was this photo, same photographer, years ago African-American model, same exact picture. The glass on the rear-end, the champagne cascading over into the glass. On the cover of the book -- there it is. In the cover of the book in which this appeared which by the way was called "Jungle Fever." We'll just leave it at that. It was a picture of Grace Jones. She was shown in a scenario with a cage and meat. There have been attacks on this for a long time.

Now, Kim Kardashian is on record saying, she never thought about race or about being a person of color until she gave birth to an African- American daughter. At the same time, you know, I got to quote this great writer, (INAUDIBLE), I hope I'm getting that right from "the Guardian" who was commenting on this sort of appropriation of black women and their bodies have been attacked, have been denigrated for centuries. And yet here is Kim Kardashian expropriating, arguably exploiting those same pose, hang on, why wrote, why? Why does a black butt only look good in white skin? Why is it that these bodies, which we have done -- I mean, we put --

ROBBINS: But the problem is that she's Armenian and striking the pose?

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HOOVER: The issue I think that Sally is making, Mel, is that Kim Kardashian is wholly unaware of the historical context in which she is trying to recreate this photo for her own good.

HOSTIN: Is she unaware? HOOVER: I think she is. She has personally said she has never

thought about having a black daughter or thought about race ever before. Look, here's what I thought it is. I think, you know, she's trying to own her body, she's trying to, you know, make it do sort of update J-Lo, right? Like J-Lo is the first woman who had a curvy body and sort of said she was going to own it. She said so her trainer, do anything to my body but don't touch my rear-end, right? And so, this is sort of the next iteration of that, but totally ignorance of the historical content.

ROBBINS: -- in these kinds of selfies for years. Follow her Instagram and you will see nothing but butt shots for crying out loud. She has been stereotyped in the same way -- go ahead, Sunny.

HOSTIN: That's exactly what I was going to say. And I think the other piece of it, if she was ignorant to this photographer's history, shame on her. If she knew about a photographer's history and said she wanted to work with them, shame on her. Shame, shame, shame. I think it is just so despicable. And I'm not saying you can't be a mom and be sexy. I hope that I'm still sexy even though I'm a mom. But the bottom line is, you know.

KOHN: We have to leave it there. Hopefully it won't have ramifications for her black daughter growing up in this world.

OK. For all of us here, thank you for watching.

Coming up at 7:30 eastern, an artist taking her career, thankfully, in a different direction.

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KOHN: Taylor Swift, spotlight on her career and life coming up at 7:30 tonight.

Right now, CNN NEWSROOM continues after the break.

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