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Ebola Patient Arrives in Nebraska; Tape Sheds Light on Ferguson Shooting Scene; Rape Allegations Won't Go Away For Bill Cosby; Will The Immigration Waiting Game End Soon? Suspected Cop Killer Charged with Terrorism; Why Teenager Fights for ISIS; How ISIS Successfully Recruits, Grows Its Ranks; Ferguson Fears Riot Following Grand Jury Results; Serious Allegations Against Bill Cosby

Aired November 15, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow. Thanks so much for joining me. You are in the CNN Newsroom.

Within the last hour, a plane carrying the latest U.S. Ebola patient to be treated here on American soil has arrived in Nebraska. Workers in hazmat suit carried Dr. Martin Salia on a stretcher to an ambulance before taking him to the bio containment unit at Nebraska Medical Center in Omaha. Dr. Salia was flown back here to the U.S. for treatment at the request of his wife after his medical team reported he had fallen critically ill. He's a surgeon, he lives in Maryland, he's also a legal permanent U.S. resident and he had been treating Ebola patients in his native Sierra Leon when he feel ill.

Let's bring in our CNN medical analyst Dr. Seema Yasmin who joins us, you're also formally with the CDC, you have a unique perspective on this. Let me ask you this as we play some footage for the viewers about how he was taken off the plane on a stretcher covered in a bubble, this is different than other doctors that have returned with Ebola who have managed to walk off the plane and walk out of the ambulance. What does this tell you?

DR. SEEMA YASMIN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: This tells us that what the spokesperson said in the Nebraska containment unit this morning, it tells us that he's in very critical condition. The spokesperson said, this is the sickest of the two Ebola patients that they have had so far. He is of course the third patient and that kind of protective bubble of cocoon that we are seeing in the video, Poppy, that is typical of what is on the medical evacuation plane that since these patient is so sick and can't walk for himself into the hospital, we're seeing that he's asked to being transferred on that stretcher still surrounded in that bubble.

HARLOW: He lives in Maryland, so some people are asking, why not take him to the NIH, the National Institute of Health facility in Bethesda, for example, or somewhere closer. Do you have any idea why he's being treated there in Nebraska?

YASMIN: That's a great question. The reason he's being treated in Nebraska is because those doctors and health care workers in Maryland at the NIH Center, they are still under their 21-day watch period because they so recently cared for a nurse with Ebola who was from Dallas. That's why the patient is being taken to Nebraska.

HARLOW: You know, he is reportedly, this doctor, reportedly in worse shape than some of the other doctors that have contracted Ebola in West Africa and have come back to be treated here in the United States. Would that affect the treatment that he is given, treatments that he may be given or not given as a result of how critically ill he is?

YASMIN: It can actually make a really big difference, Poppy. And that's because some of the experimental treatments can sometimes make the patient sicker when you first get them compared to others. So it means that the doctors caring for this patient in Nebraska have to really weigh out the benefits and the risks of some of the treatments that are out there. And asked them this morning, will this patient receive an experimental treatment? They said, we can't say that for sure, that he will, but they do have some treatments lined up that he may receive.

HARLOW: Okay, and finally, let me ask you this, doctor. The CDC has sent teams to New York, for example, when they were treating Dr. Craig Spencer at Bellevue Hospital. Do you know or believe that CDC teams will also be on their way to Nebraska for this case?

YASMIN: We were told they had an Ebola SWAT team that would be dispatch within 24 hours potentially of another Ebola patient. So, it's likely that we may see that. On the other hand, this health care facility in Nebraska is so expert in treating Ebola patients. They are very highly trained health care staff, so maybe they don't need additional health, we'll have to wait and see where the CDC weighs in.

HARLOW: Dr. Seema Yasmin, thank you so much for your expertise. We appreciate it.

YASMIN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Also, this top story for us. We can pinpoint today the exact moment that Ferguson, Missouri, turned from any town in the USA into a flashpoint of national outrage. It was the day 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot dead by a Ferguson police officer. Now we are hearing what happened. Really, right around the time of that shooting. What happened in the seconds and the minutes surrounding that? We're hearing it from radio chatter between officers and police dispatchers on that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DISPATCHER: 25?

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Get us several more units over here. There's going to be a problem.

DISPATCHER: Is there any available Ferguson units who can respond to Canfield and Copper Creek? Advice.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: Let's go straight to our Sara Sidner, she's been on the ground following this throughout. Sarah, when you listen to those recordings in full as you have and you talked to the people there on the ground in Ferguson about them, are we learning anything significantly new about those moments?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there was a lot of talk as to what the officer knew when he initially approached Michael Brown. And the family has pointed this out as have others that the initial meeting between Wilson and Brown, he did not know that he was potentially a suspect in a theft at one of the stores here.

What you do hear later on is the dispatcher talking about the description of the person who is being accused of stealing cigars from the store, but that initial meeting between the two that he did not know that he could potentially be a suspect. We're also seeing some video obtained by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch after asking for this surveillance video. And basically they are showing you, Darren Wilson is coming in and out of the Police Department. Early on, there were some sources out of the Police Department who remain unnamed to this time, who said that Wilson had very bad facial injuries, particularly to his eye socket.

When you look at this video, that is absolutely dispelled. You do not see any kind of major injury to his eye or really anywhere else on his face. But the Police Department after that was reported and leaked from the department, the Police Department did come out to say, no, indeed, he did not have for example, a broken eye socket. That there was some swelling in his face, but it certainly wasn't, you know, a major beating, for example. And the family has also looked at this video and listened to that audio. And, you know, been very upset with they say the way the police handled the initial part of this investigation. Now, we can also talk to you a little bit about something else that has come forward. One of the local stations reporting that the police chief has said that if Darren Wilson does indeed not get indicted, that he will be immediately reinstated. The police chief has really clarified that, so has the mayor. Saying that, that is not necessarily the truth. What will happen is there's still an internal investigation that needs to go forward, there's still other investigations out there with the federal investigation, but if indeed he were to be reinstated, this is what the mayor said about that scenario to me today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JAMES KNOWLES, FERGUSON, MISSOURI: I would be worried about his safety, absolutely. I would be worried about his public safety.

SIDNER: What about the public's reaction after all that's happened?

KNOWLES: You know, obviously, there's a mixed public reaction right now towards it. I would be concerned that there's going to be some that obviously are going to be angered by that. But again, those are all conversations that have to be continue to be had and have within our department and our officers and with the community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: And, of course though, it's been protesting Darren Wilson and wanting his arrest, they would be outraged if that indeed did happen -- Poppy.

HARLOW: All right. Sara, we'll be monitoring very closely as the grand jury decision could come at any moment for us live in Ferguson. Thanks, Sara.

Well, there are series allegations that have haunted Bill Cosby for nearly a decade. Since 2005, 13 women have accused Cosby of sexual assault. Allegations he has repeatedly denied. The conversation resurfaced during a caption contest on Cosby's twitter account this week. A slew of pictures like these appeared. Cosby really tying him to all of these allegations.

Let's bring in Alexandra Field from New York who's covering this story for us. And Alex, let's talk about that a little bit. All of these allegations that have resurfaced again this week. And also we have just learned that a planned appearance for Cosby on "The Late Show" now not happening anymore.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Poppy. Neither side offering an explanation for why this appearance has been canceled last night. What we don't know is that Bill Cosby did choose to keep an appointment with NPR earlier this week, he recorded a taped interview with Scott Simon, the interview focused on Cosby's art collection but three times Simon asked him about these old allegations that have suddenly resurfaced and three times Bill Cosby gives the same response, which is nothing at all.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (voice-over): For years allegations of rape have plagued Bill Cosby. Given the chance to address them he said nothing and a lot is being said about that. From twitter, Cosby was on NPR with Camille to not talk about those rape allegations and Bill Cosby's refusal to answer revealed more than any words could. Still, painful to watch a cornered bully cower. Those are in response to this interview with NPR's Scott Simon.

SCOTT SIMON, NPR HOST: This question gives me no pleasure, Mr. Cosby, but there have been serious allegations raised about you in recent days. You are shaking your head no. I'm in the news business, I have to ask the question, do you have any response to those charges? Shaking your head no. There are people who love you who might like to hear from you about this. I want to give you the chance. All right.

FIELD: Simon promoted the interview on twitter saying he asked about rape charges, listen and decide the pieces, yes or no. After the interview Simon tweeted, I hated to have to ask about charges in front of Mrs. Cosby. One listeners responds, "Leave Bill Cosby alone." Another says, "I know there might be legal ramifications if he speaks out but being silent sure makes you look guilty." The internet lit up with the talks on Cosby earlier this week after the comedian invited followers to meme him or caption classic pictures, here is some of the responses. "My two favorite things, jello pudding and rape." Look at this wacky shirt I'm wearing, also I'm a serial rapist. Cosby has never been charged for the crime, his lawyers have repeatedly deny allegations made years ago when several women came forward claiming they were sexually assaulted by Cosby. Among them, Barbara Bowman.

BARBARA BOWMAN, ACCUSING COSBY OF RAPE: After going to my agent and going to the lawyer and getting smacked down both times, I just said, let me just get on with my life, move on with my life and let it go.

FIELD: Bowman believes Cosby's silence says it all. A simple shake of his head is implication of a man who's heart is heavily burdened with shame.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD: The statute of limitations for prosecuting the climb that Bowman alleges has expired. Attorneys for Bill Cosby continued to deny any of the allegations lodged against him -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Alexandra Field live for us in New York this evening. Alex, thank you.

Coming up next, the next big political fight teed up. Immigration front and center on Capitol Hill. Will the President use executive action? Will the issue could become a bargaining chip. The democratic senator joins me next to tackle this one. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in Atlanta. There's still a lot of uncertainty about President Obama's likely upcoming immigration executive order, since the President himself though has not yet make a final decision, there's still a lot of questions as well. What we do know is it is almost certainly coming. Republicans don't like that one bit.

Let me bring in Senator Bob Casey, he is a democrat from Pennsylvania. Thank you for being with me, sir. We appreciate it. I want to get straight to this. Outgoing Senate --

SEN. BOB CASEY (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: Thank you. Majority Leader Harry Reid, a democrat, told the White House he wants the president to hold off on executive action, at least until Congress approves a bill to fund the government. They need to do that by December 11th. He's worried about a possible government shutdown all over again. Do you agree with him?

CASEY: Well, I don't know about the timing, but I do know that the President appears to be moving in the direction of taking executive action. I think the only reason he's in this posture right now, Poppy, is that the republicans have had a bipartisan Senate bill sitting in front of them since the spring of 2013, about 18 months ago. And they have done nothing with it. It's a comprehensive bill. It got 68 votes in the Senate. It was negotiated by eight senators from the left to the right to the middle. And it's the best proposal. And it wasn't the President's bill, by the way. So this was -- this is what -- I think this is the bill that the republicans in the House should take another close look at and try to pass something comparable to that.

HARLOW: Senator, let me, but I also am wondering, do you agree with Harry Reid, a fellow democrat, that the President should at least hold off on any executive action until we get a bill passed to fund the government.

CASEY: Well, that might be prudent. The only reason that Senator Reid would make that proposal is because the republicans have shown a willingness in the recent past to shut the government down. They had a lot of their members voting for it. And that creates a problem for the country. So if that will avert, and I don't know if that avert, but if that would avert the shutdown, I certainly favor that, but I'm not privy to what republicans are thinking.

HARLOW: I want to ask you in transition to Iraq, news this week and later in the week out of the Joint-Chiefs Chairman General Martin Dempsey, making a statement and saying that he may have to recommend at some point to President Obama that we do send combat troops, boots on the ground into Iraq. If that becomes a situation, would you agree with that move?

CASEY: Poppy, I've said from the beginning, that from the beginning of this engagement, back in August and soon after it started, that we shouldn't put American combat troops on the ground. There is a lot of ways for our country to contribute as we have and to have a strategy. One is to use air power, we have used that. We need to use more of that and sustain it for long time. Maybe not just months but maybe a few years. Secondly, intelligence. The training and equipping of the Syrian opposition and the further training of the Iraqi forces. So a whole range of things we can do to take the fight to ISIS and to defeat them, but it's going to take a long time. But I don't think the combat troops are the answer.

HARLOW: Well, let me ask you this, because last week on this program, we had a former marine on. And he said to me, you know, I'm not going to go one side or the other, but the U.S. government has to at least go all in or more in, not piece-meal as we're seeing, or not at all because he fears, and what that means for the safety of the troops there, that it won't get the job done. What is your response to that?

CASEY: Well, Poppy, look, I think that when you consider what we've done already in a little more than a decade in both Iraq and Afghanistan, we are always doing the fighting. And when you keep expressing a willingness to do all the fighting, guess who won't fight? The folks in the region. This is a regional problem that we're playing a role in stopping. But the Iraqis have to do the fighting. The Kurdish forces, Peshmerga have been very aggressive and the Syrians as well as we hope that the Turkish government would as well. But we don't want people in the region to be coat-holders to use an old expression. In other words, you do the fighting, I'll hold your coat. It's about time that they did the fighting even though we are contributing substantially, our taxpayers have, our military have, but if we keep volunteering to be, to do the fighting, we're going to be in Iraq for years if not another decade. And that doesn't result in the kind of strategic result that we want. We can help substantially as we have, but we should not do the combat.

HARLOW: Senator Casey, thank you. Stay with me. Coming up next after a quick break, we're going to talk about a huge manhunt in your state terrifying a community in Pennsylvania. The search for Matthew Eric Frein took weeks and eventually he was apprehended, but we'll going to dig into how much it costs and the new charges. We're talking terrorism charges in this case, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, it lasted seven weeks, involved as many as 1,000 members of law enforcement, it caused more than $11 million. But the man who eluded police for so long is in custody in Pennsylvania. He is now facing terrorism charges. Thirty-one-year-old survivalist Eric Frein was captured October 30th at an abandoned airport. According to court documents, he admitted, he shot two state troopers closed to wake people up.

Let me bring in Senator Bob Casey joining us again to talk about this. Senator, you grew up in this area, do you agree with the terrorism charges?

CASEY: Well, it appears that the charges are based upon an evidence that law enforcement has developed. I don't have access to that, but when you make statements like that and you take the actions that Mr. Frein took, those charges appear to be warranted. And that's why this was so serious, in addition to killing a state police officer Corporal Dixon and also wounding trooper Douglas, apparently he wanted to go further than that. That's why these charges are very serious and he needs to be held accountable for his actions.

HARLOW: The operation we're now learning cost about $11 million. That seems like a lot to the average American. Is that normal for an operation of this magnitude? And give us a sense of all the things that went into this that led to that price tag and ultimately the capture?

CASEY: Well, Poppy, it's really a question of the number of days. As you said in your introduction, seven weeks of a manhunt against someone who had planned his escape and the hiding that he did for -- he's been planning this for years, apparently. So, the duration of it was the reason. And I don't -- I'm not too concerned about those dollar amounts when you consider the result that they got this individual, they apprehended him. Who was a threat, not only to the individuals that he took action against, but was a continuing threat to law enforcement. And whenever you have an action against the state, I think that provides a heightened awareness and also a heightened justification. So I think it was worth it. About half of it Poppy, will be just for overtime.

HARLOW: Wow. And you know, our thanks to everyone who did spend seven weeks tracking him down putting their own lives at danger to do that. Thank you so much. We appreciate it, senator. Good to have you on the program. Well, a former ISIS soldier who wears an explosive belt and has

witnessed true horror is not even 18-years-old. Next, we're going to bring you the story of the child soldier and how ISIS recruits the most vulnerable to its ranks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: On a daily basis, a teenage ISIS fighter was strapped into a belt. The teenager wearing a suicide vest, carrying an A.K. 47. He joined ISIS with his father. The two, though, have now escaped to Turkey.

And in a television exclusive, our Arwa Damon talked to the 15-year- old gunman who was indoctrinated, trained, and used as a guard.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED ISIS RECRUIT (through translation): The bomb has fertilizer, explosives and TNT and has a detonator cord on the side.

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Those are not the words of an adult. Underneath the scarf worn to conceal his identity is a 15-year-old, an ISIS child soldier.

On a daily basis, Yassid, not his real name, was strapped in an explosive belt, issued a pistol and A.K. Yassid joined willingly. He and his father were with the al Qaeda-linked Nusra front. And when ISIS took over their area, they swore allegiance.

For a month, Yassid said he, and another 100 child recruits were isolated from their families, forbidden from seeing or speaking to them. They underwent intense religious indoctrination, embedding their young impressionable minds with the ISIS radical and violent interpretation of Islam and rigorous terrifying military training.

UNIDENTIFIED ISIS RECRUIT (through translation): We crawled under webbing. There was fire above us. And we would be firing our weapons. Then we jumped through large metal rings as the trainers fired at our feet telling us if you stop you will be shot.

DAMON: With his training complete, he was assigned guard duty. His mother begged him to leave.

UNIDENTIFIED ISIS RECRUIT (through translation): I would tell her this is jihad and all of us must do it.

DAMON: Two weeks ago, his father decided to defect and tricked Yassid into coming with him, bringing him to Turkey.

UNIDENTIFIED ISIS RECRUIT (through translation): I was asking him, why are you doings this? What happened? My father turned to me and said that they are not on the right religious track.

DAMON: He admits he was afraid the explosive belt he wore would accidentally detonate. The first time he witnessed a beheading, he did not eat for two days. He appears to have a gentle demeanor and seems lost in a twisted

mental maze, initially saying he wants to go back to ISIS.

UNIDENTIFIED ISIS RECRUIT (through translation): My friends and buddies are all there and they would pay me $150 a month. My father, $1,000.

DAMON: Later, he tells us, he regrets having joined them.

Yassid has a chance to go back to the Arabic and math-loving schoolboy he was.

(SINGING)

DAMON: That might not be the case for others trapped in the grip of is terror.

Arwa Damon, CNN, Turkey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: What a report.

Arwa, thank you for that.

Let's bring in former CIA counter-terrorism official, Philip Mudd.

Looking and listening to Arwa's report, it reveals these intense tactics, pretty much brainwashing. What does this tell us about how ISIS is successfully recruiting and growing its ranks?

PHILIP MUDD, FORMER CIA COUNTER-TERRORISM OFFICIAL: Well, look, ISIS is not recruiting a child. Let's be clear. A 15-year-old is a child. What I witnessed at the CIA, mostly, also at the FBI, is ISIS has a simple idea that it uses to transform a child's brain. That idea is, you, this child, have a responsibility to defend the faith, to defend women and children being attacked by the Americans, who are attacked by the Iraqis or Bashar al Assad. You have and responsibility to defend the faith. The child is very vulnerable. What you see is the recruitment of a child. You don't see somebody joining ISIS in my view.

HARLOW: What about these tapes that you are the faced in social media on Thursday of audio believed to be from the ISIS leader, al Baghdadi, talking about how they will never abandon their fight and will expand into Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya? Do you believe ISIS can continue to successfully recruit the people, the finances, the resources that it needs?

MUDD: I do, but I think what you're seeing from al Baghdadi is a reflection of vulnerability. Why is he, in the midst of Western air strikes that have damaged ISIS, why is he in the midst of the deflection of the ISIS offensive in Kobani? Why is he coming out with the audiotapes? One of my views is he's not coming out, not because ISIS feels it's on the offensive, but because, in the midst of reports that he's been either killed or injured, in the midst of reports that ISIS is under threat, he's trying to tell people he wants to recruit. We're OK. Come out here. We're not only going to be successful in Syria or Iraq, we're going to be successful in Saudi Arabia.

HARLOW: You mention the reports about purported strikes against al Baghdadi, still, really no official word on that, whether he was injured or not. But does it matter, big picture, Phil, taking al Baghdadi out or is he just a figurehead who could be replaced my someone worse, like Bob Baer has said?

MUDD: Sort of. Let me take you into my old world. If you take out one leader and the rate of strikes does not take out the next leader in three months or six months, that is a problem. What you really need to focus on here is not just taking on al Baghdadi, but taking out leader after leader after leader. Think of this as shark's tooth. If you take out one guy and you don't have another successful strike for a year, they will come up with another leader. You have to have strikes that are successful over time to degrade ISIS. You can't just take out one guy and expect to succeed.

HARLOW: Can we do it with ground troops, quickly?

MUDD: I'm sorry?

HARLOW: Can we do it without U.S. ground troops?

MUDD: Sort of. I think you can do it in Syria because, in Syria, we're focused on a relatively small organization. You have heard of Khorasan, which is a small group, sort of a representation of al Qaeda in Syria. You can't do that in Iraq. You need the Iraqi security services, the Iraqi security forces to sustain the fight on the ground because, in Iraq, you're worried about the sort of -- the ISIS organization, not only conducting terrorist operations potentially against the United States, but controlling a vast amount of territory. And to defeat them, you need people on the ground.

HARLOW: Phil Mudd, thank you for the expertise. Appreciate you coming on, sir.

MUDD: Thank you.

HARLOW: Coming up, another week, still no grand jury decision in Ferguson, Missouri. It could come at any moment. And as people wait, there's a lot of talk on how the community will react whatever the decision. Are fears of new violence overblown? We'll discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: This is your last weekend to vote for your favorite "CNN Hero." We want you to meet hero, Annette March-Grier. Will she get your vote? Here's her story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Chicken nuggets, french fries, mustard and a milkshake.

My daddy ordered the same thing as me. That is my daddy.

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: My son's father, he was murdered. Their bond was just a bond that a lot of kids don't have with their father.

ANNETTE MARCH-GRIER, CNN HERO: I love my city. I have lived here all of my life. But people here are having crisis after crisis.

I believe that the violence in this city and grief are directly connected.

UNIDENTIFIED BOY: I feel sad that somebody hurt my dad.

MARCH-GRIER: A child's grief can be very different from adults. They can easily lose their identity and their security. And that shift can be very dangerous.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There you go. Write your feelings. How are you feeling today?

MARCH-GRIER: Our program provides that safe place for a child to recover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello. How are you doing?

MARCH-GRIER: Our volunteers help the children explore their feelings.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you choose red?

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: I was angry when my dad passed away.

MARCH-GRIER: And talk about healthy ways of coping.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get that anger out!

MARCH-GRIER: We teach our children that it's OK to cry.

His brother died so he's feeling very, very sad.

Grief is truly a public health problem. We've got to address it.

Coping is how we deal with our feelings.

We're giving families a sense of hope.

(SINGING)

MARCH-GRIER: We are helping to heal wounds and bring families back together again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: A great story. Remember to vote for your "CNN Hero" of the year at CNNheroes.com.

Coming up next, these two guys face off.

You're taking yourself so seriously, guys.

Marc and Ben talking about the top stories of the day.

And at the top of the hour, "Smerconish."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, SMERCONISH: You know, it's been a jam- packed week for news. We'll recap all the important stories, Bill Cosby, immigration, Ferguson, and what would Winston Churchill to do to combat the threat of Islamic State. I have the mayor of London with me. We're packed and ready. Join me at the top of the hour.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: The Missouri grand jury considering the Michael Brown case could return its findings any day now. The city and the state are preparing for how the community may respond, no matter which way the grand jury comes down. You'll remember Michael Brown is the 18-year- old from Ferguson who was shot and killed by Officer Darren Wilson on the 9th of August. His death sparked days of violent protests in the city of Ferguson.

I want to talk about this and what's ahead with CNN political commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

Ben, let me begin with you.

There's been a lot of preparation for what may come. Are you concerned this is potentially over-blowing the worry about the violence that a decision from the grand jury may bring, either way? That we are talking about something before there's been any sign of it happening?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, not realistically, based on what people have been writing online. You have a lot of people that are hoping that they will have a chance to protest and even riot and quite possibly loot and burn things down, in general. So there's some people that are waiting for this to ignite. And a lot of them may not even be from Ferguson.

HARLOW: Right.

FERGUSON: That is unfortunate because this has had so much publicity. And there are people that are going to come in that just want to be a part of causing problems. And I think that may be the reason why we are seeing the response so early because no one wants to be blamed for not doing enough when it does -- if it does get out of control.

HARLOW: Let me ask you, Marc, you have spent a lot of time on the ground there in Ferguson while the protests went on earlier this fall. We heard from one of the attorneys representing the Brown family saying this does not end when the grand jury comes down on this. This is about longer, historical issues, racial tension in Ferguson. MARK LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. That's why

I disagree with Ben a little bit. Most of those coming out of town are not coming down to cause trouble. Even the people who may destroy things or cause violence, which we don't advocate, they are still coming from a place of righteous indignation. They are still outraged at the injustice. They are still tired of terrorism in their communities.

And that's what they are responding to. Even if we don't like their methods and even if we want to challenge their methods and change their methods, we still don't want to dismiss the thing that drove them there in the first place. Because as you pointed out, Poppy, it didn't start in August. It started hundreds of years ago, and certainly decades ago, in Ferguson where people are becoming or feeling repressed by the state. And it is continuing after this.

HARLOW: I want to move on --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: to Bill Cosby. But you said terrorism. Can you clarify what you mean by that, Marc?

LAMONT HILL: Many young people on the ground say they feel as if they are unsafe, unprotected and subject to random violence on the street, not by gang members, not by other people who look like them, although, those are issues we need to talk about as well, and do, but also by law --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Terrorism is an awfully strong word, Marc.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Police are terrorists on the ground? I think that's a little irresponsible.

HARLOW: Is that what you're saying, Marc? Is that what you are saying, Marc?

LAMONT HILL: What I said is that the people on the ground feel terrorized. That's what they have said in their own words. I'm telling you what they feel based on what they have said. And if you were subject to random violence every single day, it is a form of civic terror.

HARLOW: All right. Guys, I also want to make sure we get to this, the rape allegations against Comedian Bill Cosby. The claims have been made for years. He's never been charged with a crime, never been prosecuted. Those claims have resurfaced in recent days. One of his accusers went public with her claims. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBARA BOWMAN, ALLEGED RAPE VICTIM: It was very controlled. He zeroed right in on my vulnerabilities, which is I have no father figure, so there was no man to come knocking on his door to find out what's going down. And when these things started happening, I wasn't silent. I told my agent what was going down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN, of course, cannot independently confirm these allegations brought against Bill Cosby. Cosby would not address them when asked about them in an interview on NPR.

Marc, let me go to you first.

This is not just one woman's claims. These are 13 different women who, over nine years, brought allegations against Bill Cosby. And Barbara Bowman talked a lot about the fact this was a power figure in her life, someone known as America's dad. What is your take on what we're seeing unfold?

LAMONT HILL: I think we're seeing is something that, again, as you point out, has been developing for decades. I grew up in Philadelphia. I've heard stories like this as long as I can remember. I can't say they're true. I'm not getting sued by Bill Cosby tonight.

But what I will tell you is, a lot of times when there is smoke, there is fire. I hope the truth comes out, no matter what it is. I think it's tragic when someone considered to be a father figure on television, someone romanticized on television, could be somebody else off of television. I can't say that's him, but it is a tragic circumstance if it is true.

HARLOW: Ben, in this NPR radio interview conducted Tuesday, but just aired this morning, so not a direct response to Barbara Bowman's claims. But to these resurfacing rape allegations --

FERGUSON: Sure.

HARLOW: -- Bill Cosby didn't say anything. The journalist asked him three times and he just shook his head. Do you believe he has a responsibility to publicly give a response one way or another to this?

FERGUSON: I think, at some point, yes. When you're asking people to buy your products or come see you speak, and there are serious allegations like this, you have a duty to the public, because you are a public figure, to respond and address them. Not only for those curious about what may have happened, but also for your fans that may be supporting you. --

LAMONT HILL: And not just fans.

FERGUSON: 13 women is -- but wait. 13 women is very concerning. He also settled a case, I think, in 2006. That's also something else that was very concerning.

LAMONT HILL: Right.

FERGUSON: So I think he's going to have to deal with this at some point, because it is a P.R. nightmare. And ultimately, if there was something wrong here that happened, we should all want that to come to light and come out. And just because --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: -- not just because it was Bill Cosby --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: -- to go under the rug.

HARLOW: Marc, really quickly.

LAMONT HILL: I apologize for cutting you off, Ben.

I'm frustrated, because the other piece of this is not just fandom or celebrity. It's the fact that Bill Cosby made it his personal mission to morally censure black people, and especially black men, in 2004 and 2005. He went on a tour telling black men --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: But what's wrong with that?

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: -- is nothing wrong with it, though.

LAMONT HILL: OK. Let me finish the thought, Ben.

What I'm saying is, if he's a rapist -- and I'm not saying he is -- but if he were, I think it's particularly problematic that he was going around attacking people for lasciviousness, for sexual impropriety. You don't see anything wrong with someone -- if he did it, and I'm not saying he did. But if he did it --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: -- there's a huge gap between what he says and does. I'm just saying that that is why he owes us a response. He owes us a response because --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: -- you don't do that and then be quiet.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: No one would disagree with that but here's --

HARLOW: You don't do it -- no one does it, period.

FERGUSON: Yeah, no one does it, period. But it doesn't take away from what he was saying.

(CROSSTALK) HARLOW: Guys, guys, I have to jump in.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Ben, Marc, we have to get to --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: I wasn't talking about rape. I was talking about criticizing black people.

HARLOW: We have to get to a quick break. We'll be back in just a moment.

Also, first, Anthony Bourdain made his last trip for this season in "Parts Unknown." And in the finale, he kicks back in Jamaica. Look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, CNN HOST, PARTS UNKNOWN: Let's accept that this is about as close to paradise as it gets, right? Jamaica.

We like Jamaican music. We love it. We like Jamaican agricultural products a lot. We like Jamaican food a lot.

Day one, first order of business, some jerk chicken. Can you blame me? No, I think not.

But what do we actually know about Jamaica? Here it's different. Here you can buy a house and the beach. If you're a hotel, you can make it a private beach. They can keep people out.

How much of this is left? I mean, who will get to do this?

It's sad to say, I think it's unlikely that 50 years from now anyone but the extraordinarily fortunate, extraordinarily connected and the extraordinarily rich will be able to even look at a vista like this. That is my personal theory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back. Let's continue our conversation with Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson.

Before the break, we were talking about the rape allegations against Bill Cosby, allegations he has repeatedly denied. But when he was asked about the allegations, he shook his head, didn't say a word, didn't say anything. Of course, CNN cannot independently, you know, verify any of these. These are just allegations.

FERGUSON: Sure.

HARLOW: He hasn't been charged.

But you guys were in the middle of a heated debate so I want to finish that.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Ben, to you, and then Marc.

FERGUSON: No, I think the core thing is, regardless of what the allegations are, what he was saying to the African-American community in the last several years is not something that should be negated because of any allegations until it is actually found they're real. What he was saying in public, you know, Marc, he's almost like he's saying we shouldn't be listening to him. What Bill Cosby was saying, I think, was a positive thing in the African-American community. Some found it controversial. But it wasn't as if what he was saying in public was somehow wrong or evil.

HARLOW: Marc?

LAMONT HILL: I think Ben missed my point. What I was saying is -- we were talking about the reasons why Bill Cosby has an obligation to answer charges. I'm saying the reason he has an obligation to answer charges, he positioned himself as the moral leader of the black community and, as such, I think you have an obligation to answer the question. And I disagree with Ben's fundamental assertion what Bill Cosby said was positive. Telling people that their kids' names are stupid is silly. Telling people that they buy expensive stuff when you're the one selling Jell-O Pudding Pops and Coke for 30 years is hypocritical. He has a history of hypocrisy.

FERGUSON: Jell-O is not expensive, Marc.

LAMONT HILL: And that's --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Gentlemen, this is off the point. This is off the point.

LAMONT HILL: -- Ben. Right. My point is that there is a contradiction oftentimes between Bill Cosby's lived experience and what he professes. And I'm saying I hope this isn't another example. I hope this stuff isn't true. I honestly do.

HARLOW: And we, of course, welcome him on CNN at any point if he would like to talk to us about these allegations.

Guys, appreciate your time, as always. Thank you so much for joining us.

I'll be back at 7:00 p.m. Eastern with more news.

"SMERCONISH," though, begins right now.