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Bill Cosby Under Fire; Cosby Rape Allegations Resurface; State of Emergency Declared in Ferguson, Missouri
Aired November 17, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Tonight Bill Cosby under fire. More explosive charges against a man who was once known as America's dad. Now another woman says Cosby raped her when she was just 19. She joins me exclusively to tell her story.
Also, Bill Cosby's radio silence. The man who asked him point blank about the accusations and got what he calls an impish smile and response.
Plus breaking news. State of emergency in Ferguson. The National Guard on the way as a grand jury gets closer to a decision of what will happen if the streets -- in the streets of Ferguson if Officer Darren Wilson is not indicted in the shooting death of Michael Brown. And why is a grand jury taking so long?
We've got a whole lot more to get to tonight but I want to begin with the very latest on the accusations against Bill Cosby.
Joan Tarshis joins me now. She accuses Cosby of raping her when she was 19.
Joan, thank you for joining us.
JOAN TARSHIS, ALLEGES SHE WAS RAPED BY COSBY WHEN SHE WAS 19: You're welcome, Don.
LEMON: So you say you were sexually assaulted twice when you were 19 years old, in 1969, by Bill Cosby.
LEMON: At the time he was working on the original "Bill Cosby Show" back in the late '60s.
TARSHIS: Right. Right. That's where I met him. I was invited up to have lunch a few times by some friends of his and then he asked me back a few times. He asked me to visit him on the set. I visited him on the set. And there was one day when he introduced me to Sidney Poitier. He called me midget because I'm only 5'3", and next to him I kind of looked like a midget. And I remember Sidney Poitier was carrying sort of an African cane
that he had just gotten and then after that he invited me to stay and work on some comedy routines with him because he knew I had written comedy for Godfrey Cambridge.
LEMON: You said that you'd never publicly --
TARSHIS: So I did.
LEMON: So -- before we go on and talk about it, you've never publicly spoken about this before. The first alleged occasion occurred after you had finished taping an episode of the "Bill Cosby Show," as you said, and then you write in detail about what happened saying, "I was sickened by what was happening to me and shocked that this man that I'd idolized, excuse me, was now raping me. Of course I told no one."
And you said you didn't tell your mother because your mother thought he was such a big deal at the time and your mother just wouldn't believe you.
LEMON: And you said at the time your mom would say, what happened with the Bill Cosby experience, and every time that she would talk about him I'm sure it sickened you.
TARSHIS: It sure did. Every time she would say, come watch the "Bill Cosby Show," I just -- I just had to say -- I just said I can't, I'm doing homework.
LEMON: Why didn't you tell police?
TARSHIS: Went back into my room. Because of Cosby's -- well, first of all, nobody else had come out, I didn't know his history. I assume I was not the only girl that he was doing this with. But who's going to believe me? Bill Cosby. The all-American dad. The all-American husband, the person. Mr. Jell-O that everybody loves. Who would believe me? They'd probably think I was out to get something.
LEMON: OK. So the first time, Joan, and I hate to have you go through this, and then we'll go over the second time later. But the first time exactly what happened?
TARSHIS: Well, that day he -- as I said, he knew I had written monologues for Godfrey Cambridge and he said -- he asked me if I was working on anything, and I said yes, I'm working on an earthquake, a few earthquake jokes because I had just experienced my first earthquake in L.A. which was really just a big tremor. But to me it felt like an earthquake. And I was working on jokes about that.
And he said, well, come up to my bungalow after I'm finished shooting and we'll work on it. And I thought, well, that's cool. You know, I'm getting to write with Bill Cosby. That should be fun. We went up to his bungalow afterwards. He made me a drink. The same drink that he knew I liked that he'd made over lunch, which was a Bloody Mary, which he topped off with a little bit of beer and he called it a red eye.
TARSHIS: And I drank that while we were talking. I imitated the way I heard the earthquake sounding. We were talking. I drank the red eye, the Bloody Mary. And very shortly after that I just -- I passed out. I woke up, or came to very groggily with him removing my underwear.
LEMON: And you said that you --
TARSHIS: And --
LEMON: In order to get him to not do what you thought he was going -- what was going to happen next, you said you lied to him about having some sort of infection.
TARSHIS: Mm-hmm. And I said, you know, if you have sex with me, your wife is going to know it because you probably will infect her. And I thought I was very clever in saying that. But he was more clever. And instead he made me have oral sex with him, which really was just horrible. Much, much -- to me it's much, much worse than had he just raped me the normal way.
LEMON: OK. So then after that did you just get up and leave? What happened?
TARSHIS: After that I sort of got -- I got dressed. He was doing stuff around the room. He said, I'm going to give you $20 or $10 and call a cab for you. And I thought, you are such a perverted creep. I just -- I never want to see you again. And I left.
LEMON: You left.
TARSHIS: And had no intentions of ever seeing him again.
LEMON: But you did see him again because, you know, as I said -- mentioned earlier, your mom, you know, idolized him. And he called the house and he said he was performing.
LEMON: This is, again, according to you. He said he was performing and he wanted you to come see him. He sent a limo and you went anyways, even though you claim he raped you the first time. And you went. Why did you go and what happened?
TARSHIS: Well, I didn't know how to back out of it. My mother -- you know, my mother answered the phone. He was saying he wanted to take me to Westbury to hear the monologue that I had worked on with him. And my mother was all excited saying oh, my goodness, Bill Cosby's sending a limo for you and you're going to go see him perform and see the stuff that you wrote for him.
You know, and she was -- you know, and my father was all excited. And I didn't -- I was 19. I didn't know how to back out of it because of them.
LEMON: So then what happened?
TARSHIS: And I thought, well, this can't happen again. We're going to be at a theater. So I'm perfectly safe. I'm going to be with a bunch of people. Well, what happened was the limo took me to his hotel. He was staying at the Sherry Netherland. And I went up to his room. And I noticed he had this big shaving kit, this men's shaving kit, opened up with lots of pill bottles in it, almost filled up with pill bottles, which I thought was really odd.
And he made a drink, the red eye, and I drank it and everything was fine. Then we went down to the limo, went out to Westbury, and I had either a soda or a glass of wine or something in the car and I started to feel funny as we got closer to Westbury. And I walked into the theater with him and the chauffeur. He went backstage. And I said to the chauffeur, I don't have a seat? I have to stand in the back of the audience with you? And he said I guess so.
And at one point very shortly after that I began to feel very, very, very drugged. And I said to the chauffeur, I said, you're going to have to take me back to the limousine, I'm not going to be able to stand very soon. Went back to the limousine. Yes?
LEMON: You went back to the limousine.
TARSHIS: Went back to the limousine.
LEMON: And did you ever make it back home or did you pass out in the car?
TARSHIS: I passed out in the car. And the last time I came to, when I came to, it was the next morning. And I was in bed with him naked.
LEMON: What did you say?
TARSHIS: And the sun was shining in through the windows.
LEMON: What did you say to him?
TARSHIS: What I said to him -- I didn't say what I wanted to say. What I said to myself was, you old expletive, you finally got me. You'll never get me again. And I got up. I remember getting up out of bed and saying, I have to go, and putting my clothes on and leaving. I don't remember whether I went back in the limo. I don't know. I think I probably just hailed a cab and went back to my parents' house and let them pay for the cab when I got there.
LEMON: I have to ask you something. You said you were asked by another -- I think it was a Philadelphia magazine. And they said, you said what do you think about Bill Cosby's show coming up. And you said I would love for NBC to cancel the series they're doing with him but that involves money, not ethics.
TARSHIS: Mm-hmm. LEMON: So that's not going to happen. And I would also like to be
able say, and this is a quote from you, "Bill Cosby is a rapist and have America believe it."
TARSHIS: Mm-hmm. Yes. He's a serial rapist, actually. I mean, when you rape at least 16 women, that's serial. That's a serial rapist.
TARSHIS: In my opinion.
LEMON: OK. And again, we're going to say that Bill Cosby, of course these accusations, he's denied it, all of them.
LEMON: And we reached out to representatives and of course the representatives said this weekend he was not going to dignify any of this with a response.
So, Joan, I want you to stay with me because when we come right back I want to know what you think of the other allegations against Bill Cosby.
Also the sound of silence. A man who asked Cosby about the allegations during a radio interview this weekend and what happened in the studio when he did.
Plus the 12 grand jurors weighing the Ferguson case. When will they decide and what's taking so long?
LEMON: Joining me now again is Joan Tarshis. She's back with me. She accuses Bill Cosby of raping her when she was 19.
So, Joan, you didn't -- the other women, there's been 13 women so far who have made these claims, you didn't know any of them personally, right?
LEMON: No. Not Barbara Bowman, right?
TARSHIS: No. Don't know their names. No. No.
LEMON: OK. So I spoke with Barbara Bowman last week and she claims that she was sexually assaulted by Cosby on more than one occasion as well. And here's what she had to say. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA BOWMAN, ALLEGED SHE WAS RAPED BY COSBY: A friend of mine in '89 took me to an attorney. He laughed me out of the office. At that point nobody would believe me. He was -- he was Dr. Huxtable. He was America's dad. Everybody loved him. I loved him. I wanted him to be my dad. And nobody believed me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: As I understand, you were nodding your head in agreement as you were watching that.
TARSHIS: Yes. Yes. That's how I felt, too. Who would believe me? He wasn't Dr. Huxtable when I knew him. He was Mr. Kincaid, a teacher. But he was still America's sweetheart.
LEMON: And he was --
TARSHIS: So --
LEMON: Yes. He was also a very popular star, "I spy" in the 1960s, and then the -- also filling in for Johnny Carson on "The Tonight Show," which was a very big deal back then, right?
TARSHIS: Mm-hmm. Correct. And doing --
LEMON: And so -- why didn't you come forward?
TARSHIS: Why didn't I come forward when? At the time?
LEMON: Yes. You said you didn't think people would believe you. But -- it probably goes beyond that because of who he was. But if you were -- you know, I'm a man, so I don't know. But if someone has taken advantage of you in that way, and of course men are as well, but for women maybe it's a societal thing or what have you. I don't know.
Why wouldn't you just say something to someone?
TARSHIS: It's the guilt and the shame of the victim. You know intellectually that it's not your fault, but your emotions have no intelligence and your intelligence have no emotions. And sometimes they don't connect with each other. And my emotions won at this point. I felt a lot of shame. I felt a lot of guilt. I felt a lot of shoulds. I should have known. There was something wrong with this man. I should have felt something was off with him. And I was angry at myself that I didn't and blamed myself.
LEMON: You blamed yourself. Yes. So -- and I have to say -- and we talked about this a little bit. A lot of people don't believe you. You know that, Joan, right?
TARSHIS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's true. You know, what am I getting out of this? If I could, I would have done this interview with a paper bag over my head to maintain my anonymity. But I really wanted to join in with all the other women to give them some more credibility. I've been quiet too long and perhaps he's still doing what he had done to us.
Maybe some young girl might be listening to this and it might prevent her from getting in the same situation with him. LEMON: Hold that thought, Joan, I want to ask you something.
TARSHIS: Or the alleged situation.
LEMON: I want to ask you. Hold that thought, though. But first I want to play this so I want to make sure I get it in. This is Whoopi Goldberg on "The View." She's skeptical about Bowman's allegations. Here's what she -- she said in response to Barbara Bowman saying, you know, she -- that no one believed her. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": Perhaps the police might have believed it. Or the -- or the hospital. Where you go -- don't you do a kit when you say someone has raped you? Don't they -- don't the police --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A rape kit is what it's called.
GOLDBERG: Isn't that the next step once you make an allegation? And one of the things that getting accused of a lot of stuff when you're famous does is it opens the door for everyone to come out, and say me, too, boss. And me, too. It's like a Bugs Bunny cartoon. So you have to really like take a minute and follow -- follow the evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You understand the doubt, don't you, Joan?
TARSHIS: Absolutely. I don't know whether in 1969 there were rape kits. I certainly had never heard of them. You know, I didn't think of going to the police at that time. I was humiliated enough. I didn't think about taking a sample at that time. Had I -- had I thought of it, had those -- were those around, had they been more publicized, you betcha I would have.
LEMON: When you said --
TARSHIS: You betcha I would have. I would have had DNA.
LEMON: Yes. So do you -- you had no evidence then. Because I understand Barbara Bowman says she does have evidence but she doesn't want to say what it is. You have no evidence.
TARSHIS: The only evidence I have is that where he stayed in hotels, the drinks, the fact that I told this to people 20 years afterwards, before anybody else had come out. Nobody else knew that he was doing this, and I told friends of mine finally. I didn't go to the press. I didn't go anywhere. I didn't -- I just told friends. I finally got it off my chest. So I don't really see how that's really getting me anything.
LEMON: So, Joan, listen, I want to --
TARSHIS: Have made it up with him. LEMON: I'm sorry about the delay. I'm going to read this and then I
have another question for you. OK? Because I'm going to ask you why you didn't join Barbara Constand's lawsuit that was in 2005 that was eventually settled.
LEMON: But here's what her attorneys said, they put up the statement over the weekend saying, "Over the last several weeks decades-old discredited allegations against Mr. Cosby have resurfaced. The fact that they are being repeated does not make them true. Mr. Cosby does not intend to dignify these allegations with any comment."
And then they changed it since on the Web site referring to the Constand settlement saying, "The statement released by Mr. Cosby's attorney over the weekend was not intended to refer in any way to Andrea Constand as previously reported, differences between Mr. Cosby and Miss Constand were resolved to the mutual satisfaction of Mr. Cosby and Miss Constand years ago. Neither Mr. Cosby nor Miss Constand intends to comment further on the matter."
So you didn't join that lawsuit but you said you felt guilty. Do you think that if you had come forward, and maybe that's the reason you are now, that maybe, you know, Miss Bowman and -- you know, may not have the same sort of allegation against Mr. Cosby or other women?
TARSHIS: I knew nothing about the other case. I knew nothing about the other case that was going on. I think I read about it after the fact. And then, you know, friends of mine would say aren't you going to do something? And I'd say well, it's too late. I could have been one of those -- I could have been the 14th woman.
TARSHIS: Had I known it was going on. But I didn't -- I didn't know. I didn't know any of them. I don't know their names. I don't know -- I don't know anybody. I just know myself. And actually one of the reporters actually called up my friend today, whom I told in about 1980 that this had happened, just to confirm it, that my story was true. And it was true.
LEMON: Joan, Joan, I have to ask you this. You said you want -- you said, again, your quote, "Bill Cosby is a rapist and you want to have America believe it."
What do you want to say to America right now?
TARSHIS: I can't make anybody believe something that they don't want to believe. I don't have that control. But just think about why would people come together that don't know each other, that say the same MO about a man -- what do we have to gain? Do we have a secret vendetta against Bill Cosby? I don't know. I thought he was -- I loved the man until this happened.
I thought he was wonderfully -- he's very talented. He's very funny. He's very bright. So I have nothing to gain. I have no money. I'm not writing a book. You know, I'm taking a master's program in school up here. So I really have nothing to gain by doing this. Except to hopefully give some credibility to the women that came before me and to let certain people who might believe it take another look at Mr. Cosby.
LEMON: OK. Joan Tarshis, thank you.
TARSHIS: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: We've got a lot more on the allegations against Bill Cosby to talk about here.
When we come right back, what happened in the studio when Cosby refused to answer questions during an interview this weekend.
Plus, why the story has gone viral now decades after the alleged incident.
LEMON: Bill Cosby is not letting the sexual assault allegations stop him from what he knows best, and that's performing before a live audience. The comic legend got a rousing reception yesterday from fans at the Warner Theater in Erie, Pennsylvania.
The allegations against Cosby first surfaced years ago. So why are they going viral now?
Scott Simon is the host of NPR's "Weekend Edition." Saturday he interviewed Bill Cosby this weekend. And Jonah Berger is an associate professor of marketing at the University of Pennsylvania. He's also the author of "Contagious: Why Things Catch On."
Both of them perfectly suited for this story.
Scott, I'll start with you because you had Bill Cosby and his wife Camille on your show over the weekend. He was on to talk about his art collection. But you also asked him about the resurfacing of these allegations. So let's talk after we listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT SIMON, HOST, NPR'S "WEEKEND EDITION": This question gives me no pleasure, Mr. Cosby, but there have been serious allegations raised about you in recent days. You're shaking your head no. All right. I'm in the news business. I have to ask the question. Do you have any response to those charges? Shaking your head no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So this was a radio interview but you got to see his reaction to the questions.
LEMON: And his demeanor and the reaction of his wife. Tell us about it.
SIMON: You know, Bill Cosby is a brilliant, perhaps a brilliant man. Certainly a brilliant performer. I got about two or three words into my question by saying, this question gives me no pleasure, and Mr. Cosby gave what I can only call that kind of mischievous, little impish Jell-O pudding pops commercial, Dr. Huxtable grin, where he went, like that. And that's when I said you're shaking your head and saying no.
It went like that every time that I began to try and get the question out. And when I actually asked the question. And you know, I made a point. I thought I owed -- for that matter I owed Bill Cosby the dignity of looking directly at him, looking into his eyes. I made a point of not looking at Camille Cosby, who as you may know is the most wonderful, enthralling, engaging, intelligent person that you could ever encounter.
The question wasn't for her. So I didn't look at her, pointedly. I didn't think there was any reason to do that. And you know, I don't think he registered any reaction of a -- you know, he certainly wasn't quaking. He wasn't terrified.
LEMON: What happened afterwards? Was it tense? Did he say I told you not to ask --
SIMON: You know, I thought -- I think what happened after the interview should be off the record but I don't want to make it mysterious by saying that. Because we stopped recording this off the record. There was no discourtesy. We got out of there have as soon as possible, I'm sure, to everybody's mutual relief.
LEMON: So, that, this interview was booked well before the allegations got, you know, dragged back up again...
LEMON: Into the headlines.
LEMON: Did they make any mention to you at all saying don't ask him about this? I was actually surprised he took the interview.
SIMON: No. And honestly, as I've said, I thought until the morning of the interview, I thought they would cancel it.
SIMON: I think, you know, they had either canceled to Queen Latifah who canceled on them. So I was surprised they went ahead with the interview.
LEMON: And Letterman.
SIMON: No, they never said anything, but I do think it's worth mentioning that they would say things my producers. Forgive a bad imitation of a Hollywood PR agent, but they would say things like, you know, you guys are so classy, you don't go for the muck and the slime like everybody else, you know, we love NPR.
SIMON: And by the way, I think that's true. We don't go for the muck and the slime, but as I think you -- you know, you just heard Miss Tarshis speaking, this -- I would not ask somebody about an assignation they had or even someone in show business, an alleged mistress they had, unless it was Angela Merkel.
LEMON: But these are serious allegations that needed to be addressed.
LEMON: Jonah, I want to ask you this, because again, this is bubble to begin because of a joke made by stand-up comedian Hannibal Buress. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANNIBAL BURESS, AMERICAN COMEDIAN: I could talk down to you because I have a successful sitcom. (LAUGHTER)
BURESS: Yeah, it was great living with Bill Cosby so,
BURESS: Have a crazy down, come on niches (ph) I don't curse on stage! Will you -- right this so (ph)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Hannibal said has been -- he had been doing that routine for quite a while and he was surprised that, you know, that it took off in the last part of him saying that, in the final -- his final performances of using that part of his routine. But how does something come from, you know, go from stand-up comedians, something in someone's act, to going viral online, Jonah?
JONAH BERGER, EXPERT ON WORD OF MOUTH, VIRAL MARKETING, SOCIAL INFLUENCE AND SOCIAL CONTAGION AND TREDNS: I think this is a perfect example of a perfect storm of morality. You know -- take a very famous person in our culture, somebody everybody knows, we all grew up with Bill Cosby, we all grew up with The Cosby Show, and take a big con traverse that's unsettled. You know, did he do it, did he not do it. People don't know and so, they're tuning in to see what's happening. And so I think, this controversy caused a lot of conversation and drew a lot of attention on the web. LEMON: Yeah. And listen I -- what's the internet plays a big role in
this and so does social media. As I -- everyone had -- did you know, you, you reached out to his media people, his Representative Scott, that's what we do. And I said, -- he said he doesn't want to dignify it with a response. My response was, I don't really think that this is gonna go away because, every time he's out in public or he goes to an interview someone was going to ask him about it, Jonah. It seems that -- and there are more details coming up every day like the woman I just interviewed. Now, she's coming forward. In this internet age...
LEMON: In this social media age, the game has really changed. You probably sweep this under the rug in former times but not anymore.
BERGER: Yeah, there are two big things about the internet that we forget. One is the speed. Things spread so much faster and more quickly than they have before. You know, you can reach millions of people with one tweet or one message and like ping-pong around the web in a few hours and really catch on and get a lot of attention. And the second is, the internet's is a little like an elephant. It never forgets. And so, you know, something's out there, it's capturing somewhere, there's information, people can dig it up, they can find it, and that can help or hurt someone.
LEMON: Yeah, this was dug up too. This is the village voice the newspaper unearthed they routine on Bill Cosby's 1969 comedy album. It's called, it's true, it's true, where Cosby jokes about giving Spanish fly to girls. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL COSBY, AMERICAN COMEDIAN AND ACTOR WITH RAPE ALLEGATIONS: When I was 13, man, start talking about weird things.
COSBY: No, really. Standing on the corner, you know anything about Spanish fly? What? Spanish fly.
COSBY: It always happens when you're 13, only when you're 13 on up to like when you get married. Guys standing around talking about Spanish fly. And it never starts with one of the guys on the corner. It's always some strange 13-year-old says, you know what? You know anything about Spanish fly? No, tell me about it. Well, there's this girl crazy Mary. You put some in they are drink, she --
COSBY: Oh yeah, that's really groovy, man. Spanish fly, groovy, yeah. Go to a party, see five girls standing alone, bought by a whole jug of Spanish fly up in that corner over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Kind of makes you cringe a little bit, Jonah, just hearing that. I don't know if this has any effect on it. He is a comedian. But, he's talking about drugging women here.
BERGER: And the hard thing about this is you know, before these allegations we wouldn't have thought anything about that bit. And so, in some ways the bit has no, you know, power to say whether he did it or didn't and I think he know that's an important question that deserves to be answered. But, you know we can dig up old things. We can find old means or old content on the web and look at them in a new light and that can cause us to change how we see things in the day to day to day.
LEMON: So, excuse me. What happens next with this story? Netflix is due to stream a stand-up comedy special the day after thanksgiving. NBC developing a new sitcom with Cosby, what do you think is gonna happen?
BERGER: I think the difficult question is -- oh, sorry.
LEMON: No, go ahead, Jonah.
BERGER: I was just going to say the difficult question is, you know, how do you react when you're not sure if this is true or not?
LEMON: Yeah. BERGER: I think if it were true that has some important repercussions but it's also important not to prejudge and assume that it is true. And so, you know, that has some important repercussions either way.
SIMON: I'm gonna speak as the son of a comedian as opposed to a journalist. I think for the rest of his working career, Mr., Mr. Cosby, he'll never have a problem getting a standing ovation in Erie, Pennsylvania. But, I think it's gonna be very awkward for NBC to put on that sitcom. Can you imagine the press tour? He's obviously not gonna go on to the Today Show to publicize it. I think we might've -- we might have passed a critical point in public reaction. And again, I say that as a human being, as someone who grew up loving Bill Cosby, and the someone -- the son of someone who worked in the industry. I think we saw an important moment. When I say it's a cautionary table -- tale, I don't know what it's going to caution various peoples in the future. But I think...
SIMON: It's going to be the first line of his obituary, which God willing won't happen for years, but it will be the first line.
LEMON: Scott Simon, Jonah Berger, thank you.
LEMON: A state of emergency in Ferguson, Missouri as we wait for the grand jury's decision in the Michael Brown case. Up next we're gonna ask an attorney for Brown's family what message this move sends to the people of Ferguson.
LEMON: Breaking news tonight, state of emergency in Ferguson, Missouri, a community on edge this evening. The citizens of Ferguson have been waiting since the August shooting of Michael Brown to see if Officer Darren Wilson will be indicted. Now Missouri governor Jay Nixon says he'll bring the National Guard back to the streets of Ferguson to coordinate with St. Louis county police. Joining me now is Anthony Gray, the attorney for Michael Brown's family. Good evening, Mr. Gray. Thanks for coming on again.
ANTHONG GRAY, MICHAEL BROWN'S ATTORNEY: Thank you for having me, sir.
LEMON: The Missouri Governor Jay Nixon declared a state of emergency, activated the National Guard today ahead of the expected grand jury decision. Do you think that's necessary?
GRAY: I don't know if it's necessary or not. I could tell you that the reaction is that it is generated a lot of fear, in the general community and public. I would go so far as to say the entire region is gripped by fear from the announcement of the National Guard, police, grenades, helmets, shields. It's like they're preparing for war instead of peace. They anticipate some kind of hand-to-hand combat. I can just tell you the consequences of this announcement has really got a lot of people, like you said, on edge and very fearful at this time.
So what would happen, though, Mr. Gray, if something did pop off or happen there and police -- the mayor, I'm sorry, and the governor weren't prepared for it. Wouldn't people be criticizing them and saying you had all the time in the world to prepare and you didn't do anything?
GRAY: No doubt about it. So, it is kind of a double-edged sword or catch 22.
GRAY: I just think the big announcement, the big grand production of the introduction of the national guard and armaments and all those things is a little bit, you know, blown out of proportion in my mind and it's created these fears and could have been done in a less, I guess grand fashion than what has been done now.
LEMON: OK. Let's talk about what happened over the weekend for surveillance video and audiotape obtained by the St. Louis post dispatch. We've learned more about the timeline of what happened on August 9th. I want you to listen to the dispatch calls from that day and then I'll get your reaction. GRAY: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, We've taking a stealing in progress from 9101 West Florissant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's with another male, he's got a red Cardinals hat, white t-shirt, yellow socks and khaki shorts. He's walking up --
DARREN WILSON, POLICE OFFICER: 21 to 25 or 22. You guys need me? 21. Put me on canfield with two. And send me another car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Frank 25.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get us several more units over here. There's gonna be a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Other important point on the timeline not caught on audio was at 12:03 p.m. A witness tweets he just saw someone die and at 12:05 p.m., dispatch calls for an ambulance reporting that someone has been tasered, in the video two hours later after the shooting.
LEMON: And you usually know after the shooting where the body's on the ground and what have you. So what did you garner from the radio calls?
GRAY: Well, you know, you don't really get much other than the fact that there was an incident at the convenience store and then there was an attempt by Officer Wilson. It sounds to me that according to what we already know, that when he went quote, unquote, "outward two" it doesn't establish that have anything to do with the convenience store either. I would expect that an officer encountering two people that were previously broadcasted their description that he would probably reference that call when he says I'm out with two on canfield, related to the convenience store or that fit the description of the individuals. We have none of that. So, to that degree it doesn't make, it doesn't make any connections for me at all.
LEMON: But the initial -- the initial contact on that had been stated by all agencies involved was that, the initial contact came from two young men walking in the middle of the street.
LEMON: That was the initial contact. And then it was broadcast over the radio, the description of the young man who had allegedly robbed the convenience store but then, it's not certain if Officer Wilson heard that call, even though it may have been broadcast, but he did say put me out on canfield because he was sitting there because he was just off of a sick baby call.
GRAY: Exactly. And I want you to be clear about something. When he said put me out with two, that meant he was about to get out of his vehicle and interact with two individuals. That's what that means.
GRAY: And keep in mind the broadcast of the description had gone out before the first encounter. So as Officer Wilson is coming down canfield the description had been broadcast while he was at the previous call. So I've pieced all that together just by listening to the tapes and reading the transcripts. When he asked if the guys needed help, that all happened before he encountered. But what he was gonna do and this is speculation on my part, if they said yes...
GRAY: His next statement would have been, could you give me that description again?
GRAY: And then he would have went out and looked for those individuals.
LEMON: I've got to run but I want to just play this video because this is in the police station. It's Officer Wilson leaving the police station for the hospital. And then 2 1/2 hours later if we can put that up, Officer Wilson returns to the police station. And again, you can't tell in this video of any injuries, but we know it's not the video -- the clarity is not enough to see if there's actually any injury. I have to ask you this before we go, and I do have to run. The family and the people involved will get notification of an announcement. Have you heard anything yet?
GRAY: Have not heard anything yet, Don. We hope the commitment to notify us before they make a public announcement is adhered to and upheld. And hopefully we'll get that notice.
LEMON: Anthony Gray, thank you.
GRAY: Thank you.
LEMON: Coming up right now, everything is in the hands of the 12 people on that grand jury. But what's going on behind those closed doors. And why is it taking so long?
LEMON: Twelve people on the grand jury will decide the fate of Officer Darren Wilson. And what happens next, in Ferguson as a matter of fact. Meanwhile, protesters taking to the streets, law enforcement gearing up as a state of emergency is declared by the governor today. Joining me now, Areva Martin, attorneys and attorney and women's rights advocate, and also David Klinger, a former police officer in Los Angeles and Redmond, Washington and the author of Into the Kill Zone, and Van Jones, CNN political contributor. Thanks to all of you. What's up with the cap, David?
DAVID KLINGER, FORMER POLICE OFFICER IN LOS ANGELES: It's cold here. If you want me to take it off, I'll do that, but then I might start to shiver.
LEMON: We would not want that to happen. OK. Areva, I'm gonna start with you. Are you afraid that people are going to see what they want to see and not necessarily read and look at all the facts?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: You know, there's been so much coverage of all this, Don, and people have formed opinions about it. You know those that want to believe that Officer Wilson should be indicted. I don't think any decision by this grand jury is going to change their decisions about that. They've seen the witnesses come on, you know, program after program and talk about Mike Brown's arms being in the air surrendering as he was shot by Officer Wilson. So that's gonna be very difficult to change those individuals opinions no matter what comes out of this grand jury.
LEMON: And I remember being there, Van. We were both on the ground. And the day the videotape came out in the convenience store. And you could clearly see then there were stills. And there were people who were comparing the stills to Michael Brown being on the ground on canfield and what he was wearing. And clearly to most -- to the people in the media, it was the same outfit but the people on the ground were saying there's no way, it's not the same outfit. And I was just wondering, what is going on where people are wanting to see what they're wanting to see or not believing what's in front of their eyes? What's happening?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, a couple things. First of all, let's just be clear. The violence that people are talking about, they're so afraid of, as we need to bring out the National Guard for, you know, you and I were there. I don't remember us coming away saying the people in Ferguson are violent and the police are very responsible, they're very professional. We came away saying the police are provocative, the police are tear-gassing people, the police are really ratcheting it up. The governor, if he's gonna intervene should be intervening to make sure that the law enforcement is as peaceful as most of the protesters were. I just wanted to make sure I said that. But, I do think that people have low trust for this law enforcement agency. You do have a city which we forget now, 80 percent to 90 percent of all the warrants and arrests are against the African-American community, and that is -- way before Michael Brown was killed. That level of over-policing, overzealousness toward this community from this police department has created a lack of trust and that has to be addressed.
LEMON: And it's a distrust you say because even if people would say it's planted, it's not there, we know exactly what happened. Is that what you're saying?
JONES: Because they've had experienced themselves where they felt that they were singled out and targeted and the statistics are shocking in that they really bear that out. So, I think we've got to get people a little bit of credit here. There not talking about a law enforcement agency they haven't had an experience with. They have, and that's why you have such distrust. LEMON: And I do have to say something. Van, I agree with you for the
most part that we did see -- for the most part the protesters were peaceful in Ferguson. But there were some agitators in the crowd.
LEMON: That's not the bulk of the protesters. And we did see some provocation on the part of the police department. So, it wasn't just in my estimation from what I witnessed with my own eyes, just police. There were some provocateurs in the crowd as well. But David, you know, as a former police officer explains imminent jeopardy to me. What would have to be made appropriate an officer for this, for this -- for Officer Wilson to shoot Michael Brown? What would have -- what would be appropriate?
KLINGER: The basic notion is that when a police officer's life is in jeopardy he or she has a reasonable belief, is the standard we talk about, and that reasonable belief could be formed from a number of reasons. I mean, the classic example is the shootout. A suspect's got a gun, he starts shooting at the officer, the officer returns fire. My situation, some 32 years ago, a guy attacked my partner with a butcher's knife, knocked him on the ground, was trying to drive the knife through his throat. So my partner's life is in imminent jeopardy. That's why I shot. So, we have that basic notion. And one of the things that appears to be in the offing here is the notion of an officer shooting to prevent his gun being taken away. Officers all across the country know that many officers are killed with their own firearm. In fact, officers are trained that in every interaction there's at least one firearm. And the FBI statistics show that in the decade ending 2012, from '03 to 2012, 43 police officers were murdered with their own guns across the country. So, if there was a struggle over Officer Wilson's gun and he has a reasonable belief that he's about to be disarmed, officers are trained to shoot their gun, to shoot the suspect off the gun. So, whatever went down in the vehicle, if something went down to the point where officer felt he was going to be disarmed, deadly force would be appropriate.
MARTIN: But Don, can I just --
LEMON: If you can do it in less than 10 seconds, Areva. Go ahead.
MARTIN: I just want to say we also have to look at what happened outside the vehicle, so he may have believed his life was in danger --
MARTIN: Inside the vehicle. But once Michael Brown started to runway from that car it's also important to note whether the officer believed his life was in danger then as well.
LEMON: Yeah, I want to ask, is it saying something he was turning back around rather than running away from the officer? JONES: But 35 feet away is not the same --
LEMON: Go ahead. Quickly, David.
KLINGER: Absolutely. And it show -- I was trying to work it out to that point. So, there was some type of a short foot pursuit and then, if in fact, Mr. Brown turn back and was coming back aggressively at Officer Wilson...
LEMON: When somebody's thought nobody said.
KLINGER: A logical police officer could say that he is coming back to try to disarm me again. And I've been saying from the beginning we have to wait till we have all the evidence and all the witness statements and then we can start to say whether this witness's statement lines up with the physical evidence or that witness's statement lines up with the physical...
JONES: Witnesses, we have to wait.
LEMON: I've got to go.
KLINGER: And what gonna do this grand jury.
JONES: If witnesses had seen --
LEMON: Sorry, guys, I have to go.
JONES: There wouldn't be protests.
LEMON: We'll be right back.