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Don Lemon Tonight

Hollywood's Dirty Little Secret?; Bill Cosby Rape Allegations; School Shooting Averted?

Aired November 17, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It's 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. As Bill Cosby faces shocking charges of decades-old sex abuse of young women, some Hollywood A-listers are being accused of sexually exploiting children.

Is it Hollywood's dirty little secret? And is it being swept under the rug? We'll talk with Samantha Guymer. She was just 13 when Director Roman Polanski, 43 at the time, had sex with her.

Plus a tragedy averted. A young man's parents find his receipt for two assault rifles and call police. Blake Clamers didn't shoot anyone, but he's behind bars today. Does he still belong there? Our Dr. Gupta with his exclusive jailhouse interview coming up.

Let's get right now to the scandal that could be on the verge of exploding in Hollywood. CNN's Jean Casarez has that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some say it's the dirty little secret of Hollywood. Children sexually exploited by the powerful in the moviemaking capital of the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hollywood's got a problem.

CASAREZ: Some young actors say they were led to believe they had to agree if they wanted to see their stars rise.

DR. JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: It's the mind frame of if you want to play you have to pay and we're going to make you pay with your body.

CASAREZ: A clip from this weekend's premiere of the documentary "An Open Secret" by Oscar-nominated producer, Amy Berg, purportedly describes the horrors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember the first time. Yes, I do. At one point he said, you know what, why don't you just take off your clothes, take off your clothes and let me see what you look like.

CASAREZ: Nick, who you hear describing his experience, doesn't name an accuser, but alleged victim, Michael Egan, does in the controversial film. Egan filed civil lawsuits earlier this year in California and Hawaii alleging childhood sexual abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was raped numerous times. CASAREZ: In the Hawaii suit one named defendant, high-profile "X-Men" Director Brian Singer.

MICHAEL EGAN, ACTOR: You were like a piece of meat to these people and they -- they'd pass you around between them.

CASAREZ: Several months later, Egan dropped the lawsuits. Singer's attorney, Marty Singer, no relation, tells CNN the following, "Egan has no credibility at all and can hardly be considered a reliable source for Amy Berg's so-called documentary."

But Egan's attorney said earlier this year his client's experience is one of many in Hollywood." In 2012, manager to the stars, Marty Weiss, pleaded no contest to lewd acts with a child under 14 years of age. He was placed on a sex offender registry. His attorney has declined to comment.

Anne Henry is the co-founder of Biz Parents Foundation, which helps parents keep their child actors safe in the business. She worked with Weiss in the past.

ANNE HENRY, CO-FOUNDER, BIZ PARENTS FOUNDATION: He was a very aggressive manager. He was popular. Everybody knew who he was mostly because his kids were getting auditions. He was out there.

CASAREZ: Entertainment manager, Bob Velard, who represented up-and- coming stars like Leonardo Dicaprio in his younger days, was convicted a decade ago. Offense, committing lewd or lascivious acts with a child under 14 years of age.

Efforts to reach Velard were unsuccessful. Perhaps Hollywood's most famous case, Roman Polanski, convicted in 1977 of unlawful sex with a 13-year-old girl named Samantha Geimer, fleeing the U.S. before sentencing yet still maintaining a successful career outside of the country and just weeks ago questioned by authorities in Poland.

CASAREZ (on camera): In 2012, the governor of California signed into law what is known as the Child Performers Protection Act. It requires anyone working with children in the entertainment industry other than a licensed talent agent or a certified studio teacher to register and provide electronic fingerprints to prove they are not a registered sex offender.

But the law can only protect child actors from convicted offenders. Egan understands how difficult it is for victims to come forward, especially in Hollywood.

EGAN: At the end of the day if you don't keep the members of this group happy, we control Hollywood, we can eliminate you.

CASAREZ (voice-over): Chilling words in a story now coming to the big screen. Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right, Jean, thank you very much. I want to bring in now Samantha Geimer. She was just 13 years old when Hollywood Director Roman Polanski had sex with her. She tells her story in "The Girl: A Life In The Shadow Of Roman Polanski." Samantha, thanks for joining us.

SAMANTHA GEIMER, AUTHOR, "THE GIRL: A LIFE IN THE SHADOW OF ROMAN POLANSKI": Hi, thank you for inviting me.

LEMON: When you hear the alleged victims talking about Bill Cosby and what they say happened to them, does it bring you back to 1977 and what happened between you -- you were then 13 and Roman Polanski, who was 43 at the time? What's similar if there were any similarities between those accusations?

GEIMER: Well, what's similar is having no one believe you. What's different is that I was under age. I was forced to come out with this immediately and I didn't have to wait years to tell my story. So a lot of things are different. But the not being believed and the powerful men in Hollywood, who take what they want, it's very familiar in that way.

LEMON: So it's tough, again, you know, Bill Cosby denies all of the allegations. When you hear the women's stories, do you find them believable?

GEIMER: Well, I would always err on the side of caution and believe the victim. I think they deserve the respect to be believed. Without, you know -- without too much question because this myth that people just make these things up all the time, that's not really true.

So although I don't know them, I would err on the side of believing them first and later, you know, making judgments if I had more information.

LEMON: Your case was the scandal that really shone a light on a seedy underbelly of Hollywood at the time. He ultimately pled guilty to having unlawful sex with you and then he fled to Europe before sentencing. When you were first questioned and told your story, did people believe you then?

GEIMER: People did not believe me. I felt like the police didn't believe me. The hospital satisfy didn't believe me. But once they found evidence, then suddenly of way believable and I got a completely different reaction from everybody involved.

So without evidence I don't think anyone would have ever believed me. And people to this day don't believe the truth of what happened. But there's always going to be people who don't believe what you say. That's one of the things you just have to learn to live with.

LEMON: I don't know if you got to see the interview with Joan Tarshis, who was -- you know, said it happened to her back in 1969. She was just on top of last hour. Great interview. And she said -- she said that, you know, people -- she understands why people don't want to believe this many people about Bill Cosby because he's so iconic, and who's going to believe a young person? GEIMER: I think it's in human nature to not want to believe bad things about people. If it's your friend you wouldn't want to believe it. And people have this false idea that these celebrities that they feel close to and respect or admire or love, they have a hard time believing it's true.

I just think it's human nature to want to give people that you care about or people you think you care about even though it's a celebrity you really don't know, you want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

But the truth is you don't know these celebrities and they could be nice people or they could be not so nice people. And I learned that at a very young age.

LEMON: People aren't always who they present themselves to be in public, which is what you're saying and especially when someone has a public persona. Do you think things have changed much since 1977?

GEIMER: I thought they had. But now I'm wondering if that's not true. It seems like perhaps I had this idea that the wild 70s was different than today. And I think what I'm hearing and finding out is actually things have not changed that much.

This bad behavior still goes on and people still are getting hurt. And people are still wishing they could sweep it under the rug instead of talking about it.

LEMON: What do you see to people who put the blame on these young women, saying they should not have been there, they should have known better, known what they were getting into, especially if it happened multiple times for those to whom it happened multiple times.

GEIMER: I think you should put the blame on the person who did wrong. You don't blame a victim because of she put herself in bad circumstances or you have a personal judgment about that person. If someone takes an action you blame them for that action.

They did it. They're to blame. And it's hard to describe when you're around powerful people how intimidated you feel and you feel like you can't speak up. And if you want to take responsibility for yourself and say I made bad choices.

I shouldn't have been there, I wish I would have done things differently, that's fine, but as far as other people, outsiders blaming the victim. No. You blame the person who took the actions. They're the ones who did it.

LEMON: I have to ask you, what are your feelings towards Roman Polanski today?

GEIMER: I wish that they would judge him in absentia or sentence him in absentia. Stop pursuing him. He pled guilty. He served his time. I cannot believe the way the courts have made us both suffer for his celebrity and for their own little time in the limelight to drag him back here.

So I have -- we have made amends. He is sorry. He has apologized. I've forgiven him. He knows what he did was wrong. And people make mistakes and I have no hard feelings towards him. I hope he does well.

LEMON: Roman Polanski, I should tell our viewers, fled to Poland and has since been there. Thank you very much, Samantha Geimer.

GEIMER: Thank you very much for having me.

LEMON: We've got a lot more on this story. When we come right back, does Hollywood turn a blind eye to sexual abuse when powerful people are involved? Can anything change the casting couch mentality?

Plus breaking news, the hunt is over for two of John Walsh's targets. We're going to tell you who they are and how they were found. Coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We just heard Bill Cosby is most definitely not the first powerful figure in Hollywood to be accused of sexual misconduct. Will anything change?

Joining me now Mel Robbins, CNN commentator and legal analyst, and also Mark Geragos, defense attorney and CNN legal analyst. OK. Hi, guys. I should say hi, lady and gentleman. People on social media say you called all those women guys.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR AND LEGAL ANALYST: I could care less.

LEMON: Yes, exactly. Mel, so Polanski has continued to make films and work with some of the biggest names in Hollywood. Does Hollywood turned a blind eye to sexual abuse when it involves to powerful men?

ROBBINS: Obviously. They're giving the guy an Oscar when he's been convicted of sleeping with a 13-year-old and he's living in exile overseas. So yes, they do turn a blind eye, Don.

LEMON: Mark, you know, the power structure of Hollywood, older man in charge, take advantage of young female actresses trying to become famous, it seems impossible to fix. We've heard of the casting couch forever. Can anything be done to change that, to obtain, you know, any hard evidence and press charges and change the system in Hollywood?

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I'm representing Kesha right now and suing one of the superstar mega producers for his sexual predatory activity, and it's difficult. You're up against incredibly powerful people. There's a disproportionate power between the predator and the victim.

So it's very difficult. And there is a sense that at a certain point that if the woman stays around or, as Mel was saying before we got on air, if they come around a second time that somehow they asked for it. Not understanding the dynamic that goes on here.

And that very same disproportionate amount of power, and that kind of attraction of the fame and the fortune and so it's an insidious problem, it's a horrible problem. And we don't talk about it or deal with it enough.

LEMON: So Joan Tarshis was on CNN at the top of the last hour, and she -- when asked why she did it, she said -- well, number one, she said she thinks NBC should not do the upcoming show with him.

And then she said she did it because she wanted people to know, she said Bill Cosby, this is a quote, "is a rapist, and I wanted to be able to say that and have America believe it." She also said this. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I have to ask you this. You said you want -- you said, again your quote, Bill Cosby is a rapist and you want to have America believe it. What do you want to say to America right now?

JOAN TARSHIS: I can't make anybody believe something they don't want it believe. I don't have that control. But just think about why would people come together that don't know each other? That say the same M.O. about a man, what do we have to gain? Do we have a secret vendetta against Bill Cosby?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So Mel, there are cases of women who fabricated these charges. I'm not saying that any of these women did that against men. The question is have they ruined it for other women? I don't know if the women who fabricate sexual abuse charges, if it's really that high. And you even heard Whoopi Goldberg on "The View" saying I have a lot of questions for her.

ROBBINS: Well, I have a lot of questions for Whoopi because when you have at least 13 women that come out and say repeatedly that this guy did it to me and they've got nothing to gain, you may not convict him in the court of law, but he has been freaking found guilty in the court of common sense.

And so anybody with half a brain should know that at least the majority of these women are telling the truth, Don. I don't care if he's ever convicted --

LEMON: But Mel, people may be surprised because you're an attorney. And as an attorney, you know, you advocate due process, innocent until proven guilty.

ROBBINS: Yes.

LEMON: He has denied it. This has never gone to court --

ROBBINS: Yes, it has gone to court and he settled because this woman sued him in 2005. He settled knowing that there were 12 other Jane Does that wanted to talk. The woman you that just interviewed in the last hour wasn't even part of the lawsuit, Don. And so women are coming forward now saying, this happened to me. They have nothing to gain --

LEMON: But when I said gone to court, there has been no decision of guilt or innocence. And you don't know what is in the document when they settle --

ROBBINS: Well, let me tell you something. I do know that when I listen to four women now that have come forward -- and by the way, a number of them spoke back in 2006, Don. One of them was on the "Today" show. Another one told her story to "People" magazine. It was reported widely.

We didn't have cell phones. We didn't have the wide use of the internet. We didn't have social media in order to get this story out. And now people are talking. And I'm telling you right now, I freaking believe these women.

And unlike Whoopi Goldberg, I don't need to like look at the evidence to see if I'm going to indict my buddy Bill Cosby in these allegations because I can listen to these women and say based on common sense there is no way that these women are making these allegations up simply so they can get 5 minutes of fame on CNN.

GERAGOS: But Mel. Mel, I was just going to say, Mel, I think that all Don is asking, and I think what a lot of people have, people have a natural inclination, or at least they used to, to want to give people a presumption of innocence.

I think what Mel was saying is that she's gone through that and that when you start to hear, you know, four, five, six, the numbers add up, I can't tell you how many times I've had to defend cases years ago where that was what the prosecutor used to argue.

That there was no reason, why would all these people have a similar story, why do they resonate? There's always a right, and I think it's something to be applauded, when people come to these kinds of accusations, with a natural skepticism, which is a function of a presumption of innocence, but at a certain point you do get to make up your mind.

And there are certain recurring themes here that tend to resonate, and so it's OK outside of a courtroom for people to come to a certain conclusion. It's just not okay, I suppose, to have a rush to it. And I understand -- I'm not here to defend Whoopi, but I understand when she says maybe she's at an earlier spot than Mel might have been at for a couple of minutes.

LEMON: By also hear she was saying as someone who is a celebrity, and I'm sure people have accused Whoopi of things she didn't do, looking to be paid or looking for fame or looking for whatever it is. When you're a person who's in a public spotlight or someone who has means, people come after you and they see you as a big --

GERAGOS: That's absolutely true.

ROBBINS: Yes, you're right.

LEMON: Then by giving credence to it, by responding to it you just rev it up again.

GERAGOS: I can't tell you how many times I've defended people and that very same -- everything you've just said, Don, rings absolutely true. There are people who think, well, he's a celebrity, she's a celebrity. They've got money. I'm going to go after them. You deal with that. It's the numbers in this case that make this thing so daunting, I think.

ROBBINS: And I find it --

LEMON: Quickly.

ROBBINS: I find it stunning, Don, that there are four women sitting on that television show and not one of them had the guts to say wait a minute, 13 women saying something? There's more here than just a bunch of women that are fabricating something that I need to look into.

LEMON: OK, go ahead. I've just been given more time. So you have a reprieve. Mark, you can respond to that.

GERAGOS: I was just going to -- that's the real problem here. That's the problem and you also saw -- one of the things, you saw them walk back today the idea that when they put out -- the lawyer put out a statement that it had nothing to do -- they specifically carved out the 2006 settlement.

The reason for that, I'm going to guess, I'm going to speculate, is there was a non-disparagement, you couldn't say anything negative. And I'll bet you that the lawyer for the person in 2006 sent out a letter.

LEMON: The music means they're playing us off. Thank you, Mel. Thank you, Mark. Appreciate it.

ROBBINS: Nice to see you, Don. Great to see you, Mark.

LEMON: A young man who struggled with mental illness is in prison, turned in by his parents after he purchased two assault rifles. Blaec Lamers never shot anyone, and his mother believes he is incarcerated because of his mental illness. Up next, Dr. Sanjay Gupta's jailhouse interview with Blaec Lamers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: It is all too familiar story, really, a young man commits mass shooting. But in this case authorities say they averted it. Blaec LamMers' parents found his receipt for a gun and called the police.

As a result, Blake is now serving two concurrent 15-year prison sentences. He didn't shoot anyone. And his parents say it was all a big misunderstanding, that he wasn't a threat but in need of help.

But as our Dr. Sanjay Gupta dug deeper he found troubling questions, which is what can happen when the fear of another tragedy runs smack into the complicated life of a family coping with mental illness.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like other new inmates, he's locked up 23 hours a day. Blaec Lammers is 22 years old and I met him at the Jefferson City Correctional Center. That's the maximum security prison in Missouri that he now calls home.

(on camera): What did you do to get here?

BLAEC LAMMERS, CONVICTED OF PLANNING ASSAULT: I bought two ARs. I didn't tell my mom. She found a receipt in my pocket and then she called the sheriff's department. And then they came and found me.

GUPTA: In the interrogation you were asked lots of questions.

LAMMERS: Yes.

GUPTA: At some point you said you had intended to cause people harm.

LAMMERS: Yes. And the detective, he came out of nowhere and said I was going to threaten a movie theater. I just started agreeing with him because I knew either way he was going to find me -- he was going to charge me for something.

GUPTA (voice-over): Police eventually did charge Lammers with making a terrorist threat, first-degree assault, armed criminal action.

(on camera): Would you have hurt anybody?

LAMMERS: No. I would hurt myself before I hurt someone else.

GUPTA (voice-over): While it is impossible to know what exactly what's going on inside Blaec Lammers' mind when he bought those guns, we do know in this incident he didn't hurt anyone. No doubt Blaec has had a troubled past.

In 2011, he pled guilty to an assault on his co-worker at a mail facility. In 2009, he was arrested at Walmart, carrying a butcher knife. He told a psychologist he had thought about killing a woman there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think I just want to get on with my life.

GUPTA: His parents, Trisha and Bill Lammers, say that was all in the past, and they agreed to talk about it including the day they called the police on their own son.

TRISHA LAMMERS, MOTHER OF BLAEC LAMMERS: I gathered up his clothes from the bathroom floor and came upstairs and was going through his pockets. Then I found a receipt from Walmart that he had bought a weapon for $865. I immediately went out in the garage and I called Bill, and I said what do we do?

GUPTA (on camera): Was that the concern, that he was going to hurt somebody?

TRISHA LAMMERS: My concern was he would take the guns and kill himself.

GUPTA: You decided to call the authorities?

TRISHA LAMMERS: The next day, Thursday morning I went to the sheriff's department with the receipt.

GUPTA (voice-over): According to police documents, Blaec's mother, Trisha, was concerned Blaec might shoot people at a movie theater. She says not true, that they had twisted her words. She claims all she said was that Blaec's gun looked like the one used by James Holmes in the Aurora, Colorado shooting. She told me she wasn't worried about a mass homicide but rather a lonely suicide.

(on camera): What did they say to you?

TRICIA LAMMERS, MOTHER OF BLAEC LAMMERS: They said OK, Mrs. Lammers, thank you for coming. He didn't seem like he was too concerned. OK, thank you.

GUPTA: Tricia, why did they put him in jail?

TRICIA LAMMERS: They said they were doing a well-being check. So they picked him up at Sonic and said we need to take you to the police station for questioning.

GUPTA (voice-over): And in an instant the lives of this family changed forever. Within minutes of meeting Blaec, you could feel and see and hear the cause of his parents' worry. He was a broken kid. Lots of smiles, but lots of pain.

BLAEC LAMMERS, CONVICTED OF PLANNING ASSAULT: Trying too hard to fit in with other people. At one point in my sophomore year in high school for a whole semester from August to December I ate lunch in the bathroom because I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anybody that ate lunch at that time.

GUPTA (on camera): That's kind of sad, Blaec.

BLAEC LAMMERS: It is. Looking back on it, it's like I should at least have tried to talk to people. But I was always shy in high school. I was afraid to talk to people because of what I would say and how it would come out.

TRICIA LAMMERS: He played football and did basketball and did karate.

GUPTA (voice-over): Diagnosed with dyslexia as a child, Blaec struggled in school, but he eventually succeeded. By ninth grade he had lettered academically, made the dean's list, and was a 4.0 student. Then seemingly overnight it all went downhill and fast.

BILL LAMMERS, FATHER OF BLAEC LAMMERS: Within six months it went from wonderful to what is going on? We've got a serious problem.

GUPTA: Soon he was in and out of hospitals. Within just a couple years he was diagnosed with nearly a dozen different psychiatric illnesses, mood disorder, major depression, schizoid personality.

So when Blaec bought the guns, his parents felt they had to step in. They saw their son as a patient. But authorities saw that same troubled boy and concluded he should be a prisoner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have those thoughts?

BLAEC LAMMERS: I did when I was 16.

GUPTA: His mother thinks Blaec was a gullible kid and easily led because of his mental illness. But prosecutors tell us he had a real plan to kill. He just didn't get a chance to carry it out. They believe they prevented a tragedy. Psychologist John Phillips treated Blaec at this hospital when he was 17.

(on camera): Were you concerned he was a threat?

JOHN PHILLIPS, PSYCHOLOGIST: In the four months he was at the hospital, he was the model resident.

GUPTA: Did you ever feel that he was potentially a harm to others that was the concern, it seemed?

PHILLIPS: I never once felt, you know, that he would ever try to hurt anyone on purpose. You know, I think that he wasn't a malicious child. He never actually ever acted out any of those threats. He never, ever once was violent in any way.

GUPTA: How do you distinguish, then, the kid who was just talking, being a teenager, versus someone who could go out and do some serious harm?

PHILLIPS: You have to find out what is going on, you know, in their head, and you've got to be able to assess whether their behavior is neurologically based and just based on an environmental reaction or whether they are actually sociopathic, where they actually don't care about anybody, they just care about what they want.

GUPTA: Is that the distinction you see with Blaec?

PHILLIPS: Absolutely.

GUPTA: He's being treated as a criminal mind --

PHILLIPS: Exactly.

GUPTA: But he has an autistic mind.

PHILLIPS: Exactly. I think because of Blaec's history of threatening they kind of put it all the way to the other extreme and really never gave him a chance to be rehabilitated. And where he is now there's no chance of him being rehabilitated, you know? GUPTA: Do you think prison is the right place for him?

PHILLIPS: Absolutely not.

GUPTA (voice-over): Blaec also saw a psychiatrist, who had concerns.

DR. H.J. BAINS, PSYCHIATRIST: We kept a very close watch on him.

GUPTA (voice-over): He told us Blaec's relationships were falling apart and he often talked about violence. Even so, he agrees, Blaec does not belong in jail. Neither of these men who treated Blaec were asked to testify at his trial. Would it have made a difference? We'll never know. His parents have been shouting from the rooftops that their son is mentally ill and belongs in a hospital, not a prison.

TRICIA LAMMERS: I went to the authorities for help and for them to just keep an eye on my son. I did not go there for the intention of him to be arrested.

GUPTA (on camera): Do you think that Blaec would have ever hurt anybody with these guns?

BILL LAMMERS: No.

GUPTA: Trish, do you think that that could have ever happened?

TRICIA LAMMERS: No.

GUPTA: Did Blaec blame you because you went to the authorities?

TRICIA LAMMERS: No.

GUPTA: What were the conversations like with him?

TRICIA LAMMERS: I have a letter he wrote me, "I've got nothing but time. We both can get through this. Just don't lose hope. This is a very important time in our lives. We can do this together. So promise me to you'll stop blaming yourself for all of this."

GUPTA: Lucid. Compassionate. Thoughtful.

TRICIA LAMMERS: Yes.

GUPTA (voice-over): Just one hour with the person isn't enough to really understand what's running through their mind. But as jarring as it is to say out loud, it seems entirely possible that Blaec Lammers' only crime here is having a mental illness.

(on camera): Your life now, here in this prison, is there anything about it that makes sense to you?

BILL LAMMERS: This place is supposed to help you. I don't think it is. I think prison is just supposed to keep you away from society because society is scared of you.

GUPTA: Should they be scared of you, Blaec?

BILL LAMMERS: For what I said, yes, for actual me, me, no. I didn't do anything to harm anybody out there. I was just an average 20-year- old kid living in a small town.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: And up next, I'm going to ask Dr. Gupta about his impressions of Blaec Lammers after their jailhouse interview and about the pain the young man's parents are living with now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: And Dr. Gupta joins me now to talk more about his exclusive jailhouse interview with Blaec Lammers. So Sanjay, first things first, you know, I've got to ask you, what was your first impression of Blaec during this interview?

GUPTA: Well, you know, I was expecting obviously -- you go into a jailhouse interview, I was worried, would there be some anger issues if -- just because of the situation that he was in. But also if he felt that he was there wrongly how was he going to react to that? How was he going to want to tell his story?

I wasn't under any pretense that within an hour or so I'd fully understand him. But I've got to say, Don, he was very soft-spoken. He comes and sits down. He's answering all the questions, looks you in the eye. There weren't those flashes of anger that I expected even remotely. So an hour's not enough, but that was sort of my impression over that time.

LEMON: Is it different -- you said no flashes of anger. Is he medicated now or do we know, has he ever been under a drug regimen?

GUPTA: Well, he's been on anti-depressants in the past. He's not currently on those medications. Some have said that that's part of the issue, by the way, Don, that you don't get the adequate level of medical care when you're in prison.

Regardless whether you're a prisoner or a patient, how you think of this issue, the patient should be treated in prison, that he should be treated, that was part of this. But he was not medicated when I saw him.

LEMON: And he's in his 20s. I think he's 22 years old, correct? And I know you're a father of three, your girls are not nearly that age but time flies. Sitting down as a parent thinking -- because one doesn't know. You never know what's going to happen when your kid grows up.

GUPTA: You go to talk to his parents, and I think any parent would probably be the same way. I'd probably be the same way. She started showing me scrapbooks of when he was a young boy. He's 6'2". You know, he's 22 years old, as you mentioned, a big guy.

She still sees him as a little boy and all those things. You know, his report cards from grade school when he, you know, was in scouts, just all these various things. That's how they still see him. So it's heartbreaking.

Certainly, they look at him as their little boy, and they see him in this situation now where they don't think he belongs. They don't think he's done anything wrong.

LEMON: So before I let you go, I want to offer our viewers a little takeaway here. Sadly, when we hear about these shootings, after every shooting people always say there were signs that were missed. Is there something that you can specifically point to usually in these instances or are we just kidding ourselves?

GUPTA: You can never tell for sure. You'd love to show the scientific answer to that question, Don, but as you're alluding to, that's impossible with something like this. I will say that rampage shootings hardly ever happen spontaneously.

So to that extent there probably are signs. People who are planning, who have the -- they may have even told people. Maybe they weren't taken seriously, what they were saying. But there's usually some sign in that regard. But more to the person's character and personality, a lot of times they start to withdraw.

They're not having sort of influence from friends or family members as much anymore. They become more isolated in many ways, lack of sleep. This seems like a very simple one, Don. But that seems to be a precursor, oftentimes, before one of these strategies happened.

People go for a long period of time without sleep and what exactly that's doing to the brain is not clear. But these are some things people can watch for. Obviously people going on and off medications, not being on their medications, are signs as well.

But Don, you and I have talked about this and it's worth saying again. People who have mental illness are likely to be victims of crime rather than perpetrators of crime. So that's a stigma that I think we should just deal with head on.

LEMON: Dr. Gupta, thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

LEMON: Coming up, Ferguson, the only -- only the latest example of rising tensions between police and the community there that they serve. Stop and frisk is another. We're going to take a closer look at that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to police tactics and minorities. There's tension between residents, police departments, communities all across the country. But do we have a police problem or do we have a race problem? Here with me now, Soledad O'Brien, CEO, of Starfish Media

Group. She's got a new documentary in her "Black in America" series. It's called "Black and Blue: Looking at the Police and Their Stop and Frisk Policy," which has been very controversial. Should we start with Ferguson?

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CEO, STARFISH MEDIA GROUP: Absolutely.

LEMON: The criticism there, at least one of them, was police were over-militarized. Yet they have to maintain order now.

O'BRIEN: It's kind of the conundrum I think which is really what we look at in this documentary as well, how do you both protect civilians, citizens against crime, at the same time you're trying to figure out how to not criminalize people who have not done anything, how do you not trample on people's civil rights?

I think we've certainly seen a lot of hostility between the community and the police in Ferguson. And there's no question that the NYPD, which is the focus of our documentary, is very concerned about a similar thing. What are the challenges?

We talk to a lot of young men, black and Latino men in this documentary, who feel like one guy tells me he's been stopped 100 times.

LEMON: Really?

O'BRIEN: And if you think about that, you think about, OK, the first five times you're annoyed. By the tenth time you're angry, and by the 20th time you're furious. This kid has no criminal record. He's never been in trouble with the law. He's been stopped in front of his professors because they had to stop him on his way to college and stopped in front of his classmates.

He finds it incredibly humiliating and we wanted to take a look at what that does to someone's psyche, to constantly be perceived as a criminal. At the same time we want to see what the police think as well. They have a job of protecting civilians and trying to make decisions often in a moment's notice.

LEMON: Is this a guy -- is this Luis in the documentary?

O'BRIEN: Luis -- this is someone else, a kid named Keyshawn. But Luis in the documentary is a guy who was witnessing sort of a stop and frisk spin out of control when suddenly he became the focus of the police attention.

LEMON: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five officers line up around me. The tallest officer, he tells me, are you some type of tough guy and he tries to grab my left arm. So I move my left arm back. I said there's no reason for you to touch me. So I walk away. All the officers are continuing to follow me. So I get really

nervous because I could hear like the buckles and the walkie-talkies and everything. When I turn around the tall officer punches me in the face. I hit the floor and he screams "he's resisting arrest." And a swarm of officers from everywhere came to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: How common is this in your research --

O'BRIEN: Fairly common. I mean, all you have to do is do a quick Google search on videotaped police beatings and you'll see a zillion of them come up. In Luis' case he didn't even realize that a taxi driver was recording what was happening. He had no idea.

He would go -- he would be arrested, thrown into the wagon, brought off and processed. But in the end he was released. They never charged him with anything. He's had surgery on both of his shoulders. There's videotape later where the police pick him up with his hands behind him.

They pick him up by his hands, ripping all of his muscles here. A guy who used to play football can barely do a pushup now. He's been psychologically injured obviously physically injured as well.

LEMON: And that was caught on videotape and as I told you, I was with some friends this weekend. We were standing on my balcony. It was a great evening. We witnessed a stop and frisk and we pulled out our phones. It's changed the game.

O'BRIEN: Completely changed the game. If you look at for example the killing of Eric Garner, imagine if someone had not been rolling on that conflict from the beginning. I think it really would have changed the conversation. Cell phones have really changed a lot.

I think the issue for me ultimately is you can't have a situation that's productive for a community like Ferguson. Ferguson is completely out of control.

LEMON: Do you think stop and frisk would make a difference in a community like Ferguson?

O'BRIEN: I think that community has had such a host of problems where there is no trust. You cannot have a good relationship with the police if the police hate the community and the community hates the police.

LEMON: Right.

O'BRIEN: They need the community. They need them to tell them where the problems are. They need to work together. It is completely dysfunctional. I know for a fact that the NYPD, when you'd ask them about the impact of Ferguson, they were absolutely -- no comment, which was pretty indicative of how worried they are about that.

LEMON: What about body cameras because Ferguson they're starting to use --

O'BRIEN: The NYPD told me they're considering body cameras as well. And I think for many police officers they think it's a great idea. If they feel justified in a stop they wouldn't mind at all having it on camera. I think that certainly for journalists the more video to be able to corroborate what people are telling you with the video that you see is valuable.

We have tons of video in this documentary and it's been really I think helpful in seeing how a situation unfolds and sometimes it's deadly.

LEMON: It's fascinating and I wouldn't expect anything less from you, Soledad O'Brien.

O'BRIEN: You flatter.

LEMON: It's so good to see you.

O'BRIEN: Great to see you too.

LEMON: Make sure you tune in. The one-hour "Black in America" special, "Black & Blue" premieres tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Each week we're spotlighting the top ten CNN Heroes of 2014. When this week's honoree learned about the lack of access to fitness training faced by the disabled in his city, well, he got to work on the best way he knew how. And I want you to meet Ned Norton now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NED NORTON, CNN HERO: When I'm running, I feel limitless. Being in motion makes me feel free. When you're really pushing yourself, that's when you really feel alive. But there are millions of people around the world that are facing severe physical limitations.

They can't be independent. They can't live their lives. I spent years training Olympic athletes, football players, bodybuilders. One day a young guy, newly spinal cord injured, came to the gym asking for help. At first I didn't know what to do.

But we just worked together. We made tremendous progress. Take a breath. Reach out. Reach out. Bring it back. Before you knew it, my phone rang off the hook with people asking for help. Bring it up.

So I opened a gym designed to fit their needs.

Ready to go to work? For the past 25 years I've provided strength and conditioning training for people with disabilities.

Push. Stretch up. Nice job.

People come to me when they're at their lowest. Up, up, up, up. Hold it. Rack it.

They come to the gym, and all of a sudden you have a natural support network.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 1971 I broke my back, and I've been in a wheelchair ever since.

NORTON: That's it, Tom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks to Ned, I keep my upper body strength at a maximum. I've been able to live a full life.

NORTON: I never worry about what they can't do. I worry about what they can do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can do it, Ned.

NORTON: Yes, you can. Good job.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did up to ten.

NORTON: I'm building them up, building them stronger so they can go out and live life like they're supposed to.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: "CNN Heroes, An All-Star Tribute," hosted by Anderson Cooper airs Sunday December 7th. We'll honor all of our top ten CNN Heroes and reveal the one you choose to be the CNN Hero of the Year.

I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues now with John Vause, Rosemary Church from the CNN Center in Atlanta. Have a good night. I'll see you back here tomorrow night.