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Obama Could Send U.S. Ground Troops to Fight ISIS; Interview with Garth Brooks; Beyonce College Class Raising Eyebrows; New Video of MH17 Wreckage

Aired November 17, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Just as soon as the White House announced their mission to degrade and destroy Islamic militant group ISIS, it was followed by this.

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: American combat troops will not be returning to fight in Iraq.

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BROWN: You heard it. Now President Obama, for the first time, is suggesting U.S. troops could be sent in on the ground to fight ISIS after all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: If we discover that ISIL had gotten possession of a nuclear weapon and we had to run an operation to get it out of their hands, then, yes, you can anticipate that not only would Chairman Dempsey recommend me sending U.S. ground troops to get that weapon out of their hand but I would order it.

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BROWN: Joining us now, Joe Cirincione the president of a global security foundation and member of Secretary of State John Kerry's international security advisory board.

So, Joe, you hear President Obama say this. The first question that comes to mind is, is ISIS even capable, interested in developing a nuclear weapon or getting their hands on one? What do you think?

JOE CIRINCIONE, PRESIDENT, PLOUGHSHARES FUND, SECRETARY OF STATE'S INTERNATIONAL SECURITY ADVISORY BOARD: The official U.S. national security strategy says that the number-one threat to America is the risk of a nuclear terrorist incident. To be frank, that threat has declined over the years as we broke up and scattered al Qaeda.

But the emergence of ISIS completely changes that calculus. We've never seen a group like this. They are different from any other terrorist group we've seen. They control large chunks of territory, including urban centers. They have enormous financial resources, maybe as much as $2 billion, and an international recruitment network that can be used to bring in nuclear expertise or to deliver a bomb, should they build one. The risk right now of ISIS getting a nuclear weapon is small but it's not zero. So the president is right to be concerned about this.

BROWN: You talk about the network, the ISIS network, one organization, in fact, Terrorism Research Analysis Consortium, claims a total of 60 distinct groups have pledged support to ISIS. So in your view, how do you think they will use this net network their benefit and possibly acquiring the materials they need for something like this?

CIRINCIONE: I tell you, a terrorist group cannot build a nuclear weapon from scratch because they can't make the material, the highly enriched uranium in particular. But if they could acquire that material, the other steps are well within their capabilities. Where would ISIS get the material? The two most likely sources are Russia, which has tons of this material still unsecured in fully protected spots, and Pakistan.

So the most disturbing information that came to my attention over the last couple of months was that factions of the Pakistan Taliban had pledged their allegiance to ISIL. That's the connection that worries me the most. An insider job in the Pakistan establishment where they have enough material for hundreds of nuclear weapons, getting that material into the territory controlled by ISIS.

BROWN: Right. But it's one thing to acquire the materials. It's another to actually know how to make it, especially even making something like a dirty bomb. It takes, I would think, a lot of expertise to do something like that.

CIRINCIONE: Yes. That's exactly right, Pam. That's why the risk is low. This kind of expertise isn't lying around. But a determined group with the resources and the territory could do this. Numerous studies have shown over the last 10, 15 years, and particularly since 9/11, it was well within the capabilities of a group like al Qaeda, now like ISIS, to accumulate that material, the engineers, the metallurgists, a few physicists, a few weapons designers, to put that package together. It's not as hard as you think. So what you have to do is stop them from getting that material in the first place. Stop them from putting that combination of expertise together. You have got to secure the nuclear sites. And I think, as President Obama just did, you have to show them that if they take this step, they will be annihilated. You have to deter and prevent ISIS from getting such a weapon in the first place.

BROWN: Joe Cirincione, thank you very much. Appreciate your insight there.

CIRINCIONE: Thank you, Pam.

BROWN: And just ahead, he was the first artist to go platinum in a week, selling more than a million copies of his album "Double Life." Garth Brooks is up next. We talk about everything, including what he thinks about Taylor Swift and her break up from Spotify, and what he's doing to protect his own music. Garth Brooks, up next.

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BROWN: After a 13-year hiatus, country music mega star, Garth Brooks, is back on the scene.

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(SINGING)

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BROWN: And it's not so much he's selling a come-back album, it's how he's selling it that's revolutionizing the music industry. With the release of his new album, "Man Against Machine," Garth Brooks is launching his own music store. The music legend has long refused to sell his music on iTunes, he's now offering a platform for thousands of artists to sell their music along with concert ticket and streaming options.

I had the pleasure to speak with the man just a few moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Garth, first off, congratulations on the new album.

GARTH BROOKS, COUNTY MUSIC STAR: Thank you very much. It was fun to get back in and kind of knock the rust off and start making music again.

BROWN: First off, I want to talk about this new platform. You're putting a lot at stake in this new platform for something as important as your come-back album. Tell us how Ghost Tunes works.

BROOKS: Ghost Tunes works pretty easy, actually. You know, with iTunes you ask them and beg them, please, I'm an album artist, it's how I want to do it, and they just say no. They say, look, you play our way or don't play at all. Nice people, but that's what they give you. So we made our stuff digitally available for the first time on GarthBrooks.com. Then the question was, don't you care about other people's music. Oh, crap, I didn't plan on other people's music. But this company came and approached me and we started this Ghost Tunes.com together. And I got to tell you, man, it's cool. It comes in a billion different ways, however the artist wants to do it. You can do singles, albums, stream, hundreds of ways to do it. It's cool and helps to have an alternative or another option.

BROWN: So basically, as an artist, you can choose how you want your music to be presented and bought by the consumer, is that right?

BROOKS: Yeah. Isn't that crazy? The people that create it get to choose what the price is and how it's brought to the people. That's everything else. But, you know, when you're the big dog, you can make your own rules, and until we, you know, until we push back, they are never going to change. So this was just an attempt to get our music to our people. And then when other people called us and said, hey, man how do we get in on this thing, then it kind of grew from there.

BROWN: In 1998, you actually became the first artist to go platinum with your album within a week, setting the stage for a handful of other artists. But as we're discussing, the landscape has dramatically changed. What are your thoughts? Are the days of the platinum artists over, do you think?

BROOKS: No, I don't think the days of the platinum artists are over. A lot of it is going to be music takes charge of music again. The problem is the labels. Big-time problem. I know these guys, love these guy, they are my family, but they are the problem, and I told them this a thousand times, because they will sell their mother for 25 bucks. They just need to buckle down and understand that, together, we have strength and nobody needs to dictate, you know, music. Music should always be out front. And anybody that is selling music is very lucky to be selling music. We feel very lucky at Ghost Tunes to sell music. And it should be treated that way.

BROWN: You're not the only artist fighting this cause. A fellow artist, Taylor Swift, is engaged in a public breakup with the music- streaming site Spotify. Their CEO arguing their pay out to artists far outweighs the zero return from pirated sites. Wouldn't artists rather get something for their music than nothing?

BROOKS: You know, everybody talks about this, hey, you're going against free. But first, there was ITunes. Did anybody see their $2 billion net last year? Is anybody looking in the music industry and seeing that songwriters are losing their life and job, all that stuff? They're having to find jobs somewhere else. The music industry is dwindling. Nobody can argue that, except the people that are doing the music, iTunes, YouTube, Spotify. They are all going through the roof. So something is not right here, and we'll figure it out.

BROWN: Tell us a little bit about your album, if you would, Garth. There's a lot of anticipation for it. What can consumers expect?

BROOKS: They can expect a Garth album. With 13, 14 years off, the thought is, do you put this pressure to make this big album, and the truth is people that loved you got around you and said make a Garth album. That's what we did. It will take its place along the other albums. We'll get our first week in. Whatever that first week is, we'll start from there. We'll start working this record and make sure it gets, you know, in front as many people as it can. And its job is to touch people and we'll see if the music does that.

BROWN: OK, Garth Brooks, thank you so much, and best of luck with both your album and Ghost Tunes. Thanks for coming on to talk with us.

BROOKS: I can use it. Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up right here in "Newsroom," with the rising cost of college, some are wondering, is the price of higher education worth it? Up next, I'm going to talk to the professor of a class called "Feminist Perspectives, Politicizing Beyonce," and why he says classes like this are essential to the college experience. Up next.

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BROWN: Colleges are offering classes on everything from rock climbing to wine tasting and Harry Potter. But with skyrocketing costs of a degree and graduates drowning in student loans, shouldn't colleges and universities be giving the students what they need, the skills and opportunity to land a job? Well a new CNN film tackles the costs head on, asking whose to blame and if the degrees are worth it.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The rise in student tuition is unsustainable. We cannot continue to charge significantly more year after year after year without running into some kind of a brick wall.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: College tuition has increased more than any other good or service in the entire U.S. economy since 1978.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So let me bring in Rutgers University Professor Kevin Allred. He has a class, "Feminist Perspectives, Politicizing Beyonce," and it's raised some eyebrows.

There's been a little bit of criticism about this because, as we just saw in the documentary, colleges are getting more and more expensive, some people may argue classes like yours are a waste of time. What do you say to that?

KEVIN ALLRED, PROFESSOR, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: I argue exactly the opposite, that these are some of the skills that you learn in a class like mine which isn't just about Beyonce but a lot of other things as well, that those are giving them skills to get out in the world, be critical, be analytical about the world around them. Things like that will help them get jobs in whatever chosen field they want to go out in.

BROWN: You've been receiving some emails from parents, is that right? Tell us about that.

ALLRED: Some. I've gotten some from a different variety of folks. Some not very happy. A lot very encouraging, as well. Wondering why I'm teaching a class called "Politicizing Beyonce." I'm usually able to talk them around and sway them back to the fact that this is really about other things, not just -- you know, you won't learn dance moves and that kind of stuff. You'll learn practical stuff.

BROWN: Which I'm sure people would love to learn dance moves.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Then, educate us. What can you learn from Beyonce? What are you teaching that can be applied to the real world that can set these students up for success.

ALLRED: What we do in class, I pair Beyonce's music with black feminism. We talk about political issues. We talk about current issues. There's a lot of similarities between Beyonce's music, the images she points out, and black feminist authors, writers. We learn to be critical of those things and come up with our own opinions, come up with critical ideas of looking at pop culture. We're inundated with so many images. We break them down and think about them. Those are skills that translate into any number of jobs.

BROWN: Have you seen that firsthand? Have you kept in touch with your students that have moved on?

ALLRED: I have a few students. I haven't been around so long to keep track with a lot of them. But some are in law school. Some are just working, in grad school, in the working world. And they do say that this class helped them in kind of honing those critical skills, those analytical skills, yeah.

BROWN: Interesting. Let's talk about some of the bigger picture. As we have in the CNN film, there's this discussion about the rising costs of colleges. In your view, who do you think is to blame for this? Is this the schools, lawmakers, students? Where do you place the blame? Why is this happening?

ALLRED: I think it's schools. I think it is lawmakers. I think you're right, the debt is becoming astronomical. Even myself, going through school and becoming a professor, I have this same kind of debt. It's hard to blame just one person. There's a -- you know, it falls all over the place, I guess. And students are having a hard time. That doesn't mean we need to cut down all the classes that don't just provide, you know, the practical skills that will help them get a job and do many kinds of work. There's electives, too. There's a little room to have a break in college, too.

BROWN: All right. Really interesting to hear your thoughts on this subject. And best of luck with your class.

ALLRED: Thank you.

BROWN: Kevin Allred, thank you very much.

ALLRED: Thank you.

BROWN: Be sure to catch the CNN film special this Thursday night, "IVORY TOWER," Thursday night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern only on CNN.

Up next, new video purportedly from the moments after the crash of flight MH17. What eyewitnesses did just seconds after that plane fell from the sky.

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BROWN: New video has emerged showing what appears to be the first moments after Malaysian flight 17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine. The flight went down in July with 298 passengers and crew aboard. The video showing a raging fire and wreckage posted on YouTube by the Washington newspaper.

CNN's Phil Black is in Donetsk, Ukraine, with more on the video and the crash, which has strained U.S./Russian relations, right?

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Pam. It's extraordinary video that's come to light four months after the crash. And to watch it really confirms what you suspect when you stand on that particular spot on the crash site and that is that there was an enormous inferno at the point of impact.

MH17 broke up in the sky. The section that hit there was the largest piece of the wreckage. The main middle section of the fuselage, wings, engine, rear under carriage. The economy class section of the craft struck there.

We know this is of tremendous interest to the Dutch investigators who are piecing together what happened because they have begun an operation to collect large pieces of that debris and transport it back to the Netherlands to be reconstructed as part of the investigation to determine what brought this aircraft down. Over the last couple of days, they have been at the site. They have paid a lot of attention to that area in particular. Lifting up large sections of the wreckage, cutting some of them down to make them more transportable.

This is also important because as they move those pieces of wreckage around, in recent days and weeks, they discovered human remains. That's crucial because nine of the 298 people aboard that aircraft are still to be accounted for -- Pam?

BROWN: Think about their families.

Phil Black, thank you very much for bringing that reporting to us.