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Immigration Fight; Ferguson Tensions; Cosby Under Fire

Aired November 21, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: They also say Wilson insists he's done nothing wrong and that he's worried that, if he does agree to resign, how that will look when the grand jury is still seated, fearing it may actually imply guilt.

But sources add that these talks could totally fall apart all based upon what the grand jury does, what the grand jury decides.

Let's go to Ferguson to Tory Russell. He's an activist with the group Hands Up United.

Tory, we wanted to have you back on. Awesome seeing you.

TORY RUSSELL, CO-FOUNDER, HANDS UP UNITED: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Let's just begin with the news today.

And when you hear the possibility that this police officer is considering leaving the Ferguson force, I'm curious what you think about motivation behind that and also the timing of all of this.

RUSSELL: I don't know what new information he has that he didn't know on August 9. Him being outside is for us a public safety risk. For him, the same person who killed Mike Brown, and just to be out there, it's very hard for the community to take that.

BALDWIN: What do you mean it's a public safety risk for him?

RUSSELL: I just feel that the person who killed Mike Brown shouldn't be outside patrolling our communities.

It's a lot of measures. They need to take body cameras and some civilian review board things that need to be in place before the community even trusts the police.

BALDWIN: Tory, we're waiting on obviously the decision from the grand jury. What if there is no indictment, but this officer does ultimately say, OK, I resign? How might that impact the protesters where you are?

RUSSELL: It's not -- one person is not the end of racism. Dismantling Ferguson P.D. is not an end to racism. Those are just small steps toward what the people will call a simple justice.

We just want accountability for those that defend the system, as well as those who say they protect and serve it. BALDWIN: So, then does that mean, I'm just going off of your words,

if he is indicted, that would be the end of racism?

RUSSELL: That would not be. It's just today a young person in New York was killed. You got Eric Garner, you got Trayvon Martin, you got so many names, Ezell Ford, to Kajieme Powell, all of these people are killed by the police, so it needs to be police reform and there's just many steps in the systematic racism that we're up against.

BALDWIN: We have talked before when we talk about message and how this means so much more than simply one specific person, as you point out, in one specific case. We have now heard, Tory, from the attorney general of this country. We heard from major Missouri figures, football player and civic leaders calling for calm and peaceful protest. Let me play just some sound. I'm sure you have seen this. This is a public service announcement from Michael Brown's own father.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BROWN SR., FATHER OF MICHAEL BROWN: I thank you for raising your voices to end racial profiling and police intimidation. But hurting others or destroying property is not the answer.

No matter what the grand jury decides, I do not want my son's death to be in vain. I want it to lead to incredible change, positive change, change that makes the Saint Louis region better for everyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You have heard this. You're there really in the thick of it. Tory, you are leading and you're helping craft a message that you want heard out of Ferguson. I'm wondering though from the people you're working with and others who are coming in from out of town, will they heed that call for calm?

RUSSELL: Heed that call. If you just go over the last 100 and some days, all of the organizing, we just did our 22nd I believe civil disobedient nonviolent direct action training.

We did everything to marches in the streets. We're very committed to nonviolence, you know, and to bringing in what Mike Brown Sr. said, change in the Ferguson community.

BALDWIN: I absolutely believe you that, that you are part of this peaceful protesting, but then you have what happened last night. Take a look.

So you have that. You hear her cries, Tory. That was just last night. Arrests last night. And the decision hasn't even come down and then I was looking at your Twitter page and you are tweeting some pretty provocative images. I have to ask you, are you afraid that that in and of itself could be inciting potential violence?

RUSSELL: I'm afraid that the police is going to come out just like last night and arrest peaceful protesters, arrest people. They made people leave from crossing the street to the other side of the street and to the sidewalk and to the parking lot.

All these things, all of those cries and all those screams and all those tears that you're hearing and you're witnessing are just a grieving community that is responding to the death -- or not the death, but killing of Michael Brown and also his body being laid out.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I just have to be fair and press you on the other side as well. The images you are posting on Twitter.

RUSSELL: Yes. That was from action that people feel the same statistics that show how black people have been lynched over 150 years, those same statistics are coming from the police.

We have I think between 300 to 400 police killings. The same way if you would say a hundred years ago or even 50 years ago that a person is being lynched almost every day in this country. We feel strongly about that language. We feel that that's a sign. We were right outside of Dred Scott. And I think that we think that what we're actually saying is does the United States government who said they freed us, are we really free and are they willing to defend the rights of the people they said were freed by the Emancipation Proclamation?

That's a question, because we're still dying in the streets. We're still being publicly displayed of our killings by the local government or even the state government.

BALDWIN: I know you want peace. Michael Brown's family calling for peace, hoping for peace on the streets in the wake of whatever it is this grand jury decides. Tory Russell, I truly appreciate you coming back on the show this week. Thank you so much for joining me live from Ferguson.

RUSSELL: Thanks for talking to me.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the tale of two presidents. We have matched up immigration speeches by George W. Bush and President Barack Obama. I have got to tell you, it's pretty unbelievable how similar they are. But where President Bush gave up, President Obama has gone all in. We will show you both.

Plus, as Treasure Island in Vegas cancels Bill Cosby's show, one person we have spoken with says he warned everyone about Cosby years ago -- why he says no one listened.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let the brinksmanship begin. As we have told you, House Speaker John Boehner came out this morning, blasted the president for ordering changes to the nation's immigration system rather than waiting for Congress to write them into law.

President Obama waited for more than 17 months in fact for Boehner's House of Representatives to act on reform legislation already approved by the U.S. Senate. We will talk about that in a hot minute with Michael Smerconish, host of CNN's "SMERCONISH."

But, first, good to see you, sir, by the way. Sorry it's not in person today.

Let's just share a little something. This got a lot talking here at CNN today. You have Barack Obama. And then you have former President George W. Bush. Specifically on the subject of illegal immigration, we have both of them saying basically exactly the same thing. Let me play something. This is George Bush from the Oval Office in 2006 and Barack Obama from last night. Roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My fellow Americans.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I asked for a few minutes of your time.

OBAMA: To talk with you about.

BUSH: The reform of America's immigration system.

We must begin by recognizing the problems with our immigration system.

OBAMA: Our immigration system is broken and everybody knows it.

BUSH: Once here, illegal immigrants live in the shadows of our society.

OBAMA: Remain in the shadows or risk their families being torn apart.

BUSH: We're a nation of laws and we must enforce our laws.

OBAMA: Even as we're a nation of immigrants, we're also a nation of laws.

BUSH: We're also a nation of immigrants and we must uphold that tradition which has strengthened our country in so many ways.

OBAMA: For more than 200 years, our tradition of welcoming immigrants from around the world has given us a tremendous advantage over other nations.

BUSH: The United States must secure its borders.

OBAMA: Today, we have more agents and technology deployed to secure our southern border than at any time in our history.

BUSH: Some in this country argue the solution is to deport every illegal immigrant and that any proposal short of this amounts to amnesty. I disagree.

OBAMA: That even as we focus on deporting criminals, the fact is millions of immigrants in every state, of every race and nationality live here illegally.

BUSH: Tonight, I want to speak directly to members of the House and the Senate. An immigration reform bill needs to be comprehensive because all elements of this problem must be addressed together or none of them will be solved at all.

OBAMA: Meanwhile, I worked with Congress on a comprehensive fix and last year 68 Democrats, Republicans and independents came together to pass a bipartisan bill in the Senate.

BUSH: America needs to conduct its debate on immigration in a reasoned and respectful tone.

OBAMA: My fellow Americans, we are and always will be a nation of immigrants.

We were strangers once, too.

BUSH: We must honor the great American tradition of the melting pot, which has made us one nation out of many peoples.

OBAMA: As my predecessor, President Bush, once put it, they are a part of American life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I mean, down to the tie color, Michael Smerconish, these two were in synch straight up. What do you make of that?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: What I was thinking as you were running that, first of all, the production was terrific. That was my first reaction. But the second reaction is that perhaps in the future you will intersperse Jeb Bush maybe from that same locale because the Bushes seem to be in synch with President Obama in this regard.

(CROSSTALK)

SMERCONISH: Whether Jeb Bush can survive the caucus and the primary process to become president because he once said that he regards illegal immigration as an act of love and not necessarily a violation of immigration statutes, that's what really remains to be seen.

But there's a great lesson in all that. Perhaps if President Obama had not acted the way that he did last night and then again today, years into the future, there would be another president who would be making similar promises.

BALDWIN: Interesting you bring up Jeb Bush. That's a whole other conversation we may be having in time. Hit pause on that one.

But the real difference it seems between President Obama and President Bush is that President Bush gave up when Congress couldn't and wouldn't act and after White House lawyers basically advised him he didn't have authority to act on his own.

On the flip side, you have President Obama's lawyers saying the president does indeed have that authority. What should we make of that?

SMERCONISH: We should make of it that it's an open question and maybe if there's a case brought and there's a party that has standing -- and I think two or three states are already talking about it -- that there will be a federal judicial decision on exactly that point, because you know that the president himself, President Obama, has been out there for a long time making statements and saying I would like to act, but I don't have the constitutional authority to act.

Now he's saying something a little different.

BALDWIN: One other point about just in watching this whole speech last night, I'm curious if you talked to listeners about this. This part struck us. Play this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Scripture tells us that we shall not oppress a stranger, for we know the heart of a stranger. We were strangers once, too.

My fellow Americans, we are and always will be a nation of immigrants.

We were strangers once, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was the president of the United States quoting Scripture. I have an idea of what the answer may be, but do you think that was a personal or was that a political there?

SMERCONISH: Maybe it was a combination of both. But when I heard it for the first time as he said it in real time, I thought it was a political statement and I thought that it was a calculated effort on his part to reach a constituency, a conservative constituency that perhaps has misgivings, not so much about the plan, but the way in which he is going about the plan.

And, yes, I did talk about it on the radio today and came at it from that angle.

BALDWIN: But how did people feel about it? I'm just curious.

SMERCONISH: People, Brooke, they weren't caught up on that today. They were more caught up on the whole potential violation of the Constitution or whether it was warranted that which he had done. People are so dug in on this issue.

This issue truly is in a realm with guns and with climate change, with abortion. You simply mention immigration to a radio audience today and all of the lines will illuminate and people will be dug in from both vantage points.

BALDWIN: I will take your word for it. Michael Smerconish, thank you so much.

SMERCONISH: OK. BALDWIN: We appreciate you very much.

We're also, by the way, expecting President Obama, speaking of, to sign that executive order into action within the next hour. He just arrived in Las Vegas there on the left side of your screen, Air Force One. When that happens, we will take it live. Stay with me for that.

But, first, today, the grand jury is deciding whether to indict officer Wilson in the death of Michael Brown. Let's take a look at the makeup of the grand jury. Find out if the majority is needed and what will happen once a decision is made.

Plus, hear from a journalist who says he warned America about Bill Cosby years ago. Find out what he heard from those accusers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: If a grand jury in Ferguson, Missouri, clears officer Darren Wilson in the death of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, there could be a repeat of the violent protests we saw back in August. It could be even worse, but Brown's father and many, many others do not want that.

They are calling for calm. They are calling for peace if in fact this police officer is not charged.

Now you have Saint Louis Rams, they are even stepping up and calling for the same. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're in this together, Saint Louis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That can accomplish anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we work together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All eyes are on us now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole world is watching.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our children are watching.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's make them proud.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Proud to be a Saint Louisan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Proud of how we move forward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's better.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And stronger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Saint Louis stands together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in CNN legal analyst Mark Geragos and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.

Gentlemen, nice to see both of you.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And you, Brooke. Good afternoon.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let's begin. I think it's just worth revisiting because this could be a day a decision could come down from this grand jury. Let's talk about the process.

So, Joey, let me just kick it off with you. Remind us how many grand jurors are involved, the makeup of this grand jury and how many they need to determine this outcome.

JACKSON: Sure, Brooke.

Unlike an actual jury in the event he were indicted and it would go to trial, you still have 12 members, but there's not that need for a unanimous conclusion. Right? Generally speaking, when there's a trial, you know, you need unanimous approval. In this case there are 12 jurors and you need nine of them to vote an indictment and, of course, the standard as we look at the composition of the jury, Brooke, the standard is two things really.

A, is there probable cause to believe that a crime was committed and, B, did Darren Wilson commit that crime, unlike a regular jury where it would be proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Low standard here. Let's see what they do with that standard having heard all of the evidence in the case.

BALDWIN: All of this has been behind closed doors. It was supposed to be top secret. We talked about some of the leaks going forward. But, Mark Geragos, here is my question, because once the decision

comes down, we have seen with big trials people chase after these jurors and a lot of the jurors want to talk. Can the grand jurors talk after the decision comes forth?

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They will talk.

Whether they can is a completely different question.

BALDWIN: OK.

GERAGOS: They are going to talk. And they're going to talk about what a low standard it is, probable cause, because it's a low standard. I jokingly say, it means, is my client breathing? Probable cause is less than what you need in a civil case to get a verdict. It's really a very low bar.

BALDWIN: Sorry. I had someone quickly in my ear had a great idea. Let's go ahead and throw -- Roger, throw the graphic up of the grand jury again.

Mark Geragos, I would love to just have you -- just from a lens of a lawyer, just your gut feeling on this grand jury?

GERAGOS: It would not surprise me, if you have got that graphic up, given the racial makeup of this grand jury, it would not surprise me if they struggle a little bit because this tends to be a rather polarized issue.

When you take a look at this, there's a significant part of the population that is law and order and views this from the prism of the officer. There's also a significant part of the demographic that views this from the point of view of Michael Brown frankly. And so I think that this cuts along racial lines, unfortunately, and that's one of the reasons I think we're talking about it, if you will.

And I think also you have -- if they don't have nine votes, it's not a hung jury, so to speak. If they don't have the nine votes, it's a no bill.

BALDWIN: Joey, same question for you.

JACKSON: Sure.

And no true bill obviously would mean there's no indictment at all. But, you know, what it comes down to, Brooke, is that we're all a product of our individual experiences. And that's why jurors are very important. They're important as grand jurors and in this case they're important as regular jurors because, when lawyers pick a jury, you want jurors that can be fair and impartial, but in being fair and impartial, right, that's fair and partial from your perspective.

When you are being reasonable, it's being reasonable from your perspective. So how did you grow up? Where did you grow up? With whom did you grow up? What were your experiences? That's significant. (CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: Joey, I disagree.

JACKSON: How come?

GERAGOS: I want jurors that are on my side. I don't want them fair and impartial. I want them voting with me.

(LAUGHTER)

JACKSON: We would always love that. Always love that. But the prosecutor, Mark, would have a lot to say about it and would think differently than you did. Somewhere in the middle, Brooke, we get that jury.

GERAGOS: And, Brooke, there's something I think particularly strange about the way this whole thing has been handled.

BALDWIN: What? What?

GERAGOS: Look, if the prosecutor thinks he's got enough to file charges, then he should have just filed charges. To throw this to the grand jury or punt it to the grand jury...

BALDWIN: What does that say to you?

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: Well, to me, it says that he doesn't want -- he doesn't think he's got enough. And I don't think that in a case with this much attention, you're doing the public, the community, or anybody else any favors by putting that evidence in front of a grand jury, leaks or no leaks, and letting people not see what's going on and not understand what's happening.

Generally, in most state court jurisdictions, they don't go by way of a grand jury. They can just file charges and you have a preliminary hearing.

BALDWIN: OK.

JACKSON: And there's a lot to be said for that briefly, Brooke, in terms of a preliminary hearing, because then the evidence is aired in a public fashion, and not only does the prosecutor asked questions, but the defense attorney gets to cross-examine and so therefore it's a very transparent process, unlike what we're seeing here.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Totally different.

Fellows, thank you. Mark Geragos and Joey Jackson, appreciate it very much.

JACKSON: Thank you, Brooke. BALDWIN: We will continue the legal conversation, I'm sure, in the

ensuing days.

Meantime, another woman comes forward saying she was -- quote -- "terrorized" by Bill Cosby, and as you're about to hear, her allegations are shocking, but what might surprise you more, the response by Bill Cosby's lawyer. Do not miss that.

Plus, despite criticism against him and the response by his police force, the chief of the Ferguson Police Department tells CNN his men and women will be back on the streets if riots break out -- part of his interview on CNN coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)