Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Cosby Rape Allegations Discussed; Obama Immigration Action; Ferguson Grand Jury

Aired November 21, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: New York has a rule, they call it the Molina (ph) Rule, which you can't -- if there's a pattern and you followed the same pattern, you always use a certain drug to induce the woman to comply with your demands, that might be the beginning of a pattern and then you could introduce the prior cases. So it's a state by state...

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Just briefly, there's also a distinction between propensity evidence, that's inadmissible, meaning you can't bring all the evidence in to show that what you did last time, you did this time. That's inadmissible, but you can bring it in and Paul would agree, for purposes of motive, for purposes of intent, for purposes of common plan of scheme, and that depends upon the judge and how you argue its admissibility

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: I think that Phil Spector -- I think if Phil Spector and the parade of woman that walked up on the stand and say it happened to me to, almost exactly to the...

JACKSON: Motive, intent, common plan of scheme, judge admits the evidence, it's compelling before the jury.

BANFIELD: I don't think this story is over.

CALLAN: This is why he got a better score than me on the bar exam.

JACKSON: Blasphemy.

CALLAN: He has this things memorized.

JACKSON: My mentor, they were his.

BANFIELD: (inaudible) by the way. Paul Callan, Joey Jackson, thank you for your excellent analysis as always. You have a good weekend.

CALLAN: You too.

BANFIELD: Another big story. Immigration as President Obama gets ready to use his executive authorities to change how the United States deals with people who came here illegally. We're going to go live to Las Vegas where he sets to speak more about this plan. And families affected by the law, speak out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LORENA PALOS, DAUGHTER OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS: I fear that at any point in time, immigration can come knock on my door and take my parents with them and leave us here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: To those members of Congress who question my authority to make our immigration system work better, or question the wisdom of me acting where Congress has failed, I have one answer, pass a bill

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, plenty of Republicans do question the President's authority to revamp the immigration rules and the wisdom of sidestepping Congress, but there is also reaction like this, take a look.

In his primetime address, the President laid out reforms that his legal team decided are within his powers of discretion when it comes to enforcing the existing laws. Chief among the changes allowing undocumented parents of children who were born in this country to stay here and work here, worry-free, at least for three years at a time.

Later this afternoon, Mr. Obama's planning to visit the same Las Vegas high school where he called on Congress to overhaul immigration in early 2013. CNN's Suzanne Malveaux went there to meet some of the people behind the policies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: To the nearly 40 million tourist who visit the strip each year, this is the Vegas they see. But behind the bright lights, a community of undocumented workers is quietly toiling away.

Doing menial jobs to support their families, under the constant fear that they will be torn apart.

LORENA, UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

PALOS: She says she thinks about it everyday, and it's one of hose things that people who are undocumented think about it every day. And it's a fear you have to live with.

MALVEAUX: Lorena, who only wants to use her first name, lives with that fear because she is here illegally. A mother of three, she and her husband clean homes and night club bathrooms to support their children.

PALOS: How was school today?

LUIS, SON OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS: It's pretty good.

MALVEAUX: The youngest, Luis, was born in the United States, but Lorena could be deported to Mexico at any time. Her 18-year-old daughter, also named Lorena, however is protected under President Obama's 2012 order to defer some deportations, which gives children brought to the U.S. by their parents, a two-year reprieve from removal.

She want's Obama's executive order to do the same for her parents.

PALOS: I fear that at any point in time, immigration can come, knock on my door and take my parents with them and leave us here, destroying my family and living it completely fallen apart.

MALVEAUX: Lorena also wants Obama to provide a path to citizenship. She's an A student, an actress, and beauty queen who also aspires to join the National Guard.

PALOS: I want to be able to help our country and the country that I was raised in but -- I mean, it's something that I couldn't do.

JOSE MACIAS, US-BORN SON OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT: This is where I wake up to...

MALVEAUX: The 25-year-old Jose Macias doesn't face those obstacles. He was born in the U.S. after his parents, seeking fertility treatment across the border, entered illegally.

MARTIN MACIAS, UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT: The people, they don't have papers. (inaudible). My son, he got aboard because (ph) he's a citizen.

MALVEAUX: Jose's father, Martin Macias, has spent nearly 30 years in the U.S. working at McDonald's, in fruit fields, at a shoe factory, and in construction. His wife at a casino before recently dying of a stroke.

M. MACIAS: She was very active and what other mother...

MALVEAUX: Having just lost his mom, Jose is worried he could lose his father, too if his dad is deported. Jose believes his father has earned his right to stay and has made immigration reform his passion.

J. MACIAS: If you don't fight for what's right, then somebody else won't do it for you. It was always something that she always tell us.

MALVEAUX: A sentiment shared by Lorena as well.

PALOS: I believe I am worth just as much as somebody who is born here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Suzanne Malveaux joins me live now. I'm so curious to find out what the President last night and the details of the executive order. How would it actually affect the those people that you just introduced us to.

MALVEAUX: It's a great question, Ashleigh, because for both of these families, it really is good news for them. Let me explain here, first you saw Jose there, his dad has been in the United States for almost 30 years now. He's worked various jobs, he wants to get back to work. He doesn't have a criminal background, and so he is very much eligible for let's just say, anther three years if he applies.

Lorena's mom as well, she also qualifies for this and it's interest because when I talked to her and I said look, you know, there are penalties, there are fines, taxes, she said she wants to do all of those things to get it right with the law as Obama put it last night. So she is very excited about the possibility.

What it doesn't do, however, it doesn't actually satisfy her daughter, Lorena, the 18-year-old one who's desperately wants to be a U.S. citizen doesn't see that path quite yet, and really wants to have better, greater opportunities here in this country.

And then finally, Ashleigh, the one thing that really struck me is this sense of fear and anxiety among the families because it's temporary. It's an executive order -- the whole thing could change, be undone with another president. It's not likely, but again, there is this aspect of day by day, year by year, this uncertainty that people live with in this community that still is a little bit of unsettling to them. But overall, a great sense of relief -- temporary relief that their parents are not just going to be kind of snatched away if you will. But they are very excited about listening to the President, having him come and visit here and also hearing what he has put forward last night.

BANFIELD: And we'll see if Congress does what the President suggested, and that is pass a bill which would not make it temporary. Suzanne Malveux, thank you. Great report. So good to see the actual effect of that on the actual people...

MALVEAUX: Thank you.

BANFIELD: ... that it matters most to. Suzanne Malveaux reporting live for us.

Incidentally, while the Republicans in Congress decide how to answer what they consider a presidential power grab on behalf of Obama, they just gone ahead and filed lawsuits. Only, it's over Obamacare. Yes. Obamacare, not immigration.

This Obamacare lawsuit claims that the Treasury and the Health and Human Services Department over-stepped their bounds in making after the fact changes to the Affordable Care Act. There are lot more details in it than that and it's pretty tricky stuff, but you may know that under Speaker John Boehner, the House has passed well over 40 outright repeals of that act but not one of them was able to go anywhere.

Coming up, if you live in Missouri, get ready for some very unique television in the way of football. These guys are not talking football, the look football but they are talking peace and calm. They are appealing to the community to be safe and be careful and peaceful n the wake of whatever the grand jury there decides.

The St. Louis Rams and more, appealing to the public, you'll hear it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: I have said everyday this week, today could be the day, talking about the next major part of the tragic police shooting case that put Ferguson, Missouri on every American's radar. A grand jury is hearing the evidence and it's time they made a decision on whether or not charges should be filed against the officer who shot and killed 18-year-old, Michael Brown, over the summer.

And now there's something else too. This man -- the police man, Darren Wilson, we're told now that he is in talks with the city, discussing terms of a possible resignation from the police force.

Stephanie Elam is live in Ferguson right now. And before we get to that, I just wanted to ask you about the protest last night. I'm not sure if people even realized that there are sort of ongoing protests, but they were rough last night, weren't they?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. There's protest every night, Ashleigh. And last night, three people were arrested outside of the Ferguson Police Station, blocking the street. From what we can gather, it looks like they wanted to make sure their presence was known to the police doing their part to make them come out an interacting with them. So three people arrested in that last night.

But all in all, considering what has been going on since we saw those clashes early on, nothing like that -- nothing of that sort. But, definitely still -- the presence is known. Every night, they're out here despite the fact that it is really cold. They're out here and protesting.

BANFIELD: Now, that's something to see that video. I think a lot of people have thought things were calm and we're just waiting for this kind of thing to happen once the -- wow. Once the decision is handed down by the grand jury.

And as we await that decision, Stephanie, the St. Louis Rams as well as Michael Brown, Sr., and the other community leaders have recorded some public service announcements that I believe have already started airing. You can maybe correct the record there. But give me a feel for those announcements and who they're being received or if it's too early yet to even sort of figure out that metric.

ELAM: Right. Well, when you take a look at these PSAs and they are done from different members of the community, of the Mayor of St. Louis, you have Jackie Joyner-Kersee who's an Olympian, who's from here as well. As well as the St. Louis Rams speaking, and the father if Mike Brown as well.

And what's interesting when you take a look at these PSAs, is that no one, except for Mike Brown Sr., actually mentions Mike Brown, the 18- year-old that died. Everyone else just calls for peace, calls for unity, calls on St. Louisians to basically have cooler heads and let that prevail. It doesn't even mention the reason why they're having these PSAs is because of the tension in the community, and there is tension. And it's not just here in Ferguson, it's Clayton, it's in parts of St. Louis. You can here by the way people yell at the protesters out the windows as they drive by or at the way they look at them. There's definitely some tension still here, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: It's interest to see those. And hopefully, they'll make a different and people will listen as well. I mean it's really all about safety and security when it comes right down to that.

Stephanie, keep warm and thank you for doing this really though job. You've been doing a great job.

Stephanie Elam reporting live for us from Ferguson.

So, you have probably heard the term you can indict a ham sandwich, do you think that's really true? Do you think it's really that easy to get an indictment in a case? Because if that's the case, why have we been months and months and months in a Ferguson grand jury room, and they were waiting for this particular decision.

You're going to here about some of the mechanics and you might be very surprised to find out just what kind of standard they're dealing with. How easy or how tough it is? And how one side of it can really be in there? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: In Ferguson, Missouri, here is the timeline that we are watching if and when the grand jury decides on an indictment of Officer Darren Wilson in the Michael Brown shooing. It will still be 48 hours before there's any public announcement made, and that means even if the word came down right minute, we wouldn't know until Sunday what the details are.

Our legal analyst Paul Callan and Mark O'Mara are here with me. You all remember that Mark defended George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case. So first and foremost to this whole, you can indict a ham sandwich, it sure seems strange that it takes long if you're going to indict a ham sandwich, it should be over quickly and here we are three months plus.

Paul Callan, you don't think that is a very long time but Mark O'Mara, you do. Why?

Yes, go ahead, Mark.

CALLAN: Go ahead, Mark. Yes.

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: If you're asking me -- OK. Well, you know, it's unique that we take this much time in most cases but this is sort of a super grand jury that McCulloch has created by making a decision that it's going to give them every shred of evidence that it can in order to, I think, insulate, whatever the decision is of the grand jury. And I really like the idea that we're going to get a view of the transcripts to find out whether or not his desires in this case of indicting or not indicting a ham sandwich showed up. I have a feeling he's going to insulate himself as well.

BANFIELD: So, let me ask you this. Is this grand jury in Ferguson so different than every other grand jury out there because I know there's numbers and there are numbers of jurors that differ.

CALLAN: Well, you know, in fairness, this differs from state to state. And I look at the top of cop cases that have been prosecuted in New York in recent years, three to four months is the average that it takes to present to a grand jury, so that's why I disagree with Mark on that.

However, is this grand jury different? Yes, it is. Only 12 people on it. In a lot of states, you have more grand jurors than that. New York for instance has 23, only a majority is required to vote in favor of an indictment in some states, here it's a two-third majority.

BANFIELD: Basically, nine.

CALLAN: Yes. Nine of 12. So, it is different.

BANFIELD: Mark, let me ask you something about the results. If the result is not to anyone's liking, is there ever a circumstance where you can have another crack at a grand jury, take the case back to the grand jury, say, prosecutor's thinking, you know, what I think I can do better with another panel.

O'MARA: Technically, under law, yes. It is not sort of a double jeopardy argument. If they come up with new evidence and new witnesses or some other evidence that changes the position, then they can in fact reconvene a new grand jury and in some stats, the prosecutor can even after a grand jury decision, can still move forward with prosecution.

So, it's not an end of it all, but practically, I think it will be.

BANFIELD: So the other thing is they're trying to find probably cause here, but what's the standard that they have to meet? Is it the (inaudible) to the evidence?

CALLAN: It is -- it's called more likely than not that a crime was committed. It's not -- and if they're 50-50 on it, if they say, "Well, half say yes, half say no." It's 50-50, then no true bill...

BANFIELD: That's no indictment.

CALLAN: So, you got the tip the scales ever so slightly in favor of a crime having been committed.

BANFIELD: But it's not like the burden for criminals.

CALLAN: It's not like beyond a reasonable doubt which is a very heavy standard of proof. BANFIELD: OK. Well that helps -- go ahead, last quick comment.

O'MARA: I do think it's a little bit different because the prosecutor is not suppose to bring a case that they don't think they can prove a trial. I've used that against prosecutors, it may go to McCulloch's benefit because even beyond what he has to prove, if he doesn't think he would win a trial, he's not suppose to prosecute a case.

BANFIELD: OK. Mark O'Mara, Paul Callan, thank you both. We'll watch for this decision.

Thank you all for watching as well. Have a great weekend. Wolf starts right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)