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New Report Released on Connecticut Shooter Adam Lanza; Ferguson Grand Jury to Continue Deliberations Monday; 12-Year-Old Boy Shot Dead by Police Responding to a Call about Someone with a Gun; University of Virginia Suspends All Fraternity Activities; Several News Anchors Meet Secretly with Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson

Aired November 23, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow. Joining you live from New York, we are monitoring several developing stories this evening.

The Missouri grand jury considering criminal charges against Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown reconvenes tomorrow and once they reach a decision, we could get the news quickly instead of the previously planned 48-hour delay. We'll take you there live in just a few moments from now and we'll talk with the man who has been in the streets trying to keep the city calm.

In Cleveland, a 12-year-old boy is dead shot by police who believed he was dangerously waving around a handgun. It turns out the gun was not real, it was a replica that only shoots plastic BBs. Our legal panel tackles this tragic story in a few moments.

Plus, could the Sandy Hook massacre had been prevented? A new report offers a glimpse into the light of mass murder, Adam Lanza, it outlines his deteriorating mental state and the warning signs so many missed.

And we are also tracking reports of brutal sexual assault, rape inside fraternity houses at the University of Virginia. All fraternity there now suspended and asking for police to step in.

Criminal defense attorney Mark O'Mara, clinical psychologist Jeff Gardere and former New York City police commissioner Bernard Kerik will be with me this entire hour as we discuss each of these stories in details.

Let's begin in Ferguson, Missouri where sources tell us here at CNN, the 12 grand jurors working the Michael Brown shooting case will reconvene tomorrow. They are considering whether to indict Officer Darren Wilson who shot Brown during an altercation back on August 9th. Local state and federal officials have been preparing for the grand jury's decision for week. Our Don Lemon is standing by with one of those officials. He has been in the center and follow this, Captain Ron Johnson of the Missouri highway patrol.

Don, this is the man who was able to come on to the streets there earlier this fall. And for awhile really calm people there. A lot of people there trust him very, very much. DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Absolutely. And it is good to --

every time we come here to the area, it is good to be able to talk to him to get a sense. Because not only is he leading up the security here as the head of the Missouri highway patrol, but also he is from the community. So he sees both sides. So it is great to be able to talk to him and to be able to assess what's going on.

Captain Ron Johnson, the Missouri highway patrol. Thank you for joining us again.

CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: Thanks for having me.

LEMON: You know, it has been, what, 105 -- 106 days or so since Michael Brown -- the Michael Brown shooting and then the big uproar and the big unrest that happened initially. But as I walk the street here and I talk to people, from watching television, you would think that the streets of Ferguson are still on fire and people are still outraged. And it is not -- there is concern. There is outrage. But is it what it's made out to be in the media?

JOHNSON: No, it is not. You know, the streets, if you look at the streets, people are walking the streets, people are talking. Yesterday, in the community of Canfield, they are handing out turkeys at the residents.

LEMON: Yes. Can you turn a little bit this way because I want people be able to see you face? There you go.

So, when -- the thing is, as people are thinking as you watch the buildup, you know, the grand jury is about to make a decision that could happen at any time, do you think there's going be violence as people have been anticipating as much violence?

JOHNSON: No, I don't. I have been staying there for weeks. I don't think it's going to be what people want it to be and what it expected to be. I think you are going to see some great character from this community and this nation, you know. We are going to have people from all across the nation that will (INAUDIBLE) on St. Louis. But if you look at our streets right now you are seeing that character, you are seeing that conversation. You are seeing police and law enforcement and protesters meeting together. So to all the things that you are seeing, you're seeing protesters saying we are going to come out. We want a peaceful protest.

LEMON: And of course, there is going to be the naysers (ph) who are watching saying no way. You are part of the problem. You are the person who you don't want people to realize the truth of what's going on there. But I see it, it is really not what people think it is. You have what, maybe 50 people who had been protesting every night, almost every night. Sometime some nights if the weather is bad, there aren't out there. And then a handful of arrests, maybe two or three, six, and in some nights no arrest.

JOHNSON: And that is true. And like I said, yes. I'm a policeman. But beside this place when I take my uniform off, I'm a resident of this community. I live near here. I grew up here. And so, I'm talking about what I see and what I see from the citizens (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: Yes. So, I do see -- you do see online people who are any of daring police officers, putting cameras on their faces to arrest them. Is that a big issue? Is that one of the biggest issues here?

JOHNSON: No, it is not. People have a right to use their phones to videotape officers and videotape what is going on out here. And officers are reacting to that. So, we're not arresting anyone for taking a picture or videotaping us. As a matter of fact, we actually -- we brought our officers in for debriefing and we went over that fact. So there is not illegal for anyone to use their camera to videotape doing any form of fashion.

LEMON: And let's talk about the preparedness and how ready you. We are hearing that everyone involved and possibly would get 48 hours, you know, if there was some sort of announcement. But we are hearing that that may not be true. Are you prepared either way?

JOHNSON: Yes. Once again, all of that is up to the prosecutor attorney. But we are prepared to make sure that citizens are safe. The businesses are safe. And everybody's rights are maintained.

LEMON: So, you are ready? And we know that there had been millions of dollars spent on training and on overtime. And there are officers working that overtime as we speak or are you are waiting to hear from the prosecutor for all of this?

JOHNSON: We have actually gone to 12 hour shifts with our officers. But I think the officers and the protesters are -- have quality training to ensure that things are safe.

LEMON: Yes. At this moment, as everyone is waiting around, not only around the country, not only here in Ferguson, around the country, but around the world, we want people to know about the people of Ferguson and what's happening in this community now?

JOHNSON: Well, I want people to know that the citizens in Ferguson and the business of Ferguson are, you know, have a lot of emotions but they are out to be peaceful. And you know, there is a group that actually maybe stuck on some violence or some chaos but that is a small group. And no one is going to allow to them to dictate and define the character of this region.

And the police officers that are here, are here professional and they are here dedicated to make sure that this community remain safe.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Captain Johnson. Appreciate you joining us.

And Poppy, again, as you heard from Captain Johnson, and as you have heard me saying, we're on the streets here. And we see what is happening, you make it a different picture of what is going on from social media, even from watching on television sometimes, and even as a journalist, even as an anchor for a large news organization, as I have watched some of the pictures, many of the protest that happened back in August, you might get the sense that that's what's happening in this community now, but it's not.

And I'm not saying that there isn't going to be any violence. But I don't think, as the captain said, that it's going be as bad as people are making it out to be. I think the people of Ferguson deserve a lot of credit, most of them are peaceful. There are some agitators but I think the cooler heads will win out. I certainly hope so, Poppy.

HARLOW: And I think you're right. And you know, someone asked me a question this week, Don, and they said do you think you guys in the media are inciting this playing it up more than it is. And you know, it is always important to talk about what you are seeing on the street. Yu have been there reporting throughout. You are there now and it is calm. And we know a lot of the agitators earlier in these protests who are not even from Ferguson.

So Don, thank you. We know you will be live from there throughout and tomorrow evening on your show as well. Thanks, Don.

Well, with the national spotlight as we have been talking about fix on the city awaiting a verdict, the grand jury is taking a lot of pressure. So, what is happening behind those close doors? What do we know? What don't we know?

Let's bring in our legal panel, CNN legal analyst Mark O'Mara, clinical and forensic psychologist Jeff Gardere, joining us from Washington former New York City police commissioner Bernard Kerik. Thank you all for being with me this evening.

Let me begin with you, Mark. This grand jury, no decision on Friday. They are reconvening again tomorrow. We just don't know if they are going to ask to hear from more witnesses or if they got all the evidence and they are still deliberating. Any concern there may be discord? We know they don't need immunity (ph). You still need nine to agree, though.

MARK O'MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. It's our time line that we are frustrated with. We sort of hoped that they would be done today. They are going to take the time they need to take. It looks as though they are getting to the final stages. We know the witnesses seem to be at the end now. The fact that they are taking the time deliberating, I think is encouraging. That means that they are thinking this through. This is a national event and it takes a lot of effort to make the right decision. And their decision is going be looked at one way or the other for years to come. So I don't mind the fact that they are taking the time.

HARLOW: Take the time you need.

O'MARA: Yes. Do it right.

HARLOW: Right?

So Jeff, when it comes to officer Wilson, whether he is indicted or not, if he is not indicted, there has been a lot of talk about whether or not he would return to the force. But talk to us about the mental state that you're in through something like -- listen, if you would have been able to rejoin the force, let along go enter back into the community. We have not seen him in public.

JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Sure. A lot of people have been traumatized by this. And I think a lot of people think that perhaps Darren Wilson is a person who may be proud of what he did. But I would think that any human being who is in that situation would want to backtrack, see how they could do this thing different, would be affected by taking a life, whatever the circumstances may have been.

But I think at the end of the day, this is a person who would not go back to the police force. I believe he has been tainted as far as his reputation. But also, psychologically, he has been tainted. How do you go back into uniform and discharge your duties in a way that is professional after everything that we have seen with this particular case?

HARLOW: And Bernard, let's talk about what Captain Ron Johnson has said. He said I think, you know, people might want this to get out of hand on the streets of Ferguson, but it's not going to. Putting a lot of faith in the community members there, the protest peacefully. There are protests. Of course, you can't help who comes in from the outside and rile things up. But in your estimation, how can it be handled most appropriately this time around if we do see big protests?

BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think is a response by the police. It's pre-active action by the police. You know, they have an enormous amount of work. They have dealt with the community since this happened. There has been additional training for the police. And I think the big thing is keep the agitators and the instigators out of there. Captain Johnson knows who they are. The community leaders knows who they are. They know what their intent is. They are the ones, really, you have to focus on.

HARLOW: But can you keep them out? but you can't really keep them out unless you're arresting them and have --.

KERIK: Well, you have to stay on top of them and make sure that they don't get out of hand and that's what we have seen in the past. The majority of the people arrested are not from Ferguson. They were from somewhere else. And I think Captain Johnson understands that.

HARLOW: All right, gentlemen, stand by. Quick break. We are going to talk about another very important story.

Coming up next, about a 12-year-old carrying this realistic looking toy gun, shot and killed by police. What happened? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: A heartbreaking story out of Cleveland, Ohio. A 12-year-old boy shot dead by a police officer responding to a call about someone with a gun.

Take a look. This is the gun that that boy was carrying. It looks real but it is not real. It is what they call an airsoft pistol and it's basically a toy gun. Let's bring in our law enforcement panels up, Bernard Kerik, joining

us also Mark O'Mara and Jeff Gardere.

Let me start with you, Bernard. What we know is that this 12-year-old boy was waving it around, the 911 call say pointing it at people, and was eventually shot and killed or killed, died later in the surgery. Put us in the officer's shoes when you're responding to something like this.

KERIK: Well, the only information the officer has when he responds is what was given to him during dispatch, a person with the gun. He gets there. He sees the kid with the gun. That gun that you just showed your audience, to me, and I was in the business 35 years, looks like a real gun. That's what the officer sees. He confronts the person with the gun. Shots are fired. I can tell you as a cop this is the most tragic thing that can happen to a cop, especially a child like this.

Personally, I don't think these guns should be sold the way they are. These toys, these air guns, toys for kids, I think they have to be marked. I think they have to be, you know, painted or they have to -- there has to be something that differentiates them from a real gun.

HARLOW: So what we're told and it's really in the early stages of reporting on this as this was just happened. But as if there was sort of an orange cap on the end of the gun but it clearly that was removed. This is removable.

Mark O'Mara to you, has exact same question with Bernard, should we have a discussion about I know it is a free country, but should toys like this be allowed to be made, marketed and sold?

O'MARA: On the cops, we have our so, every gun he sees is loaded, cocked and ready to be fired. So you can't make a judgment call on whether or not that's a real gun or not. He has presumed it is real. We should not have guns like this in children's hands anyway. The parents have -- should have primary responsibility to taking care of this. But why does that gun have to be black? Why can't it be yellow? Why it can't it be orange like the cap would? The cap was some deference to the fact that it could look like a real gun.

HARLOW: But it came off.

O'MARA: Yes. The toy manufacturers, those manufacturers, the manufacture that made that gun should be quaking in their boots that their gun got a 12-year-old killed because it did.

HARLOW: And that is a viable legal argument against the company.

GARDERE: But it's not just the gun that was black. It was the young man who was carrying it. This 12-year-old child who was black. And we know that African-American youth are more at risk for being targeted by the police. That's just the fact.

And so, we have got reach out to all of our children. Btu I would say especially to our African-American children and say listen, you're at risk. You of all people should not even be playing with something like this.

HARLOW: When is the lawyer for the family sais quote "this is not a black or white issue. This is the right or wrong issue." Obviously, wanting to say this shouldn't happened to any child ever. But it is important to always listen in context.

GARDERE: It is the reality.

HARLOW: To you Bernard, when you are dealing with the situation like this as an officer, I would think that the first response would be shoot at the ground, shoot at the foot, disable this person. And we don't know what was said. We don't know how many times they said drop the gun, if it did or did happen. But is it -- I mean, how does someone die ? How does a 12-year-old die as a result of this? Why not shoot at the foot and disable them?

KERIK: Well, if you shoot at the foot and you miss it and that is a real gun, you are dead.

HARLOW: You are dead.

KERIK: Here is the problem, officers are trained to shoot to stop, not shoot to kill. Shoot to stop. They trained to shoot, made your body mask which is the chest and body area, the biggest portion of the body. And you only have -- I have been involved in gun battles and you only have a second to make a determination whether you're going to shoot or not. I did this as the tragic incident. It should not have happened as Mark said. If that gun was yellow or it was orange or white or another color, I'm confident this wouldn't have happened.

HARLOW: OK. So, what do we do now, Mark and Jeff? How does society learn and how do you think its change as the result of this. Because if you just sue a company, the company has money they can pay for it. What should happen?

O'MARA: Well, what's nice is that we're talking about it and maybe we will keep talking about it. So maybe we can have some law. And I don't see every law for every event. But, maybe a law in this kids' honor to say those manufacturers cannot make guns that look like guns when they are not.

HARLOW: But it isn't the first time something like this happen.

(CROSSTALK)

GARDERE: And we have to learn from these tragedies. Some good has to come from it. And so, parents, school administrators and so on, there are many toy to play with. Let's not play with guns. Let's not play with toy guns. Let's keep those out of the hands of all of our children.

HARLOW: But then, you get to the issue. And Bernard, feel free to jump in here. But in to certain Government overreach? That the government will be dictating --

GARDERE: The parents can dictate to their children and tell them we don't want you to play. We're taking these toy guns out. We will get you anything else but not a toy gun.

O'MARA: We don't let kids play with cars until they are of age. We should keep guns and things that look like guns away from them.

HARLOW: It is the fact here. Hard question is that family -- "

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Thank you, guys. We will be back in a moment. We are going to talk about this next, really with deteriorating mental capacity, a fixation for violence and access to guns. A new state report says Adam Lanza's history was a recipe for mass disaster. The report outlines the many red flags and warning signs myth by Lanza's family, by educations, by doctors, the details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, a new report offers a chilling view into the world of Adam Lanza, this young man who killed his mother and then murdered 20 children and six educators at Sandy Hook elementary school almost two years ago. That report outlines the red flags, the warning signs that were missed throughout his life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW (voice-over): Adam Lanza had not left his room in his mother's new town home for three months. He was anorexic, weighing only 112 pounds the day he died despite being six-feet tall. He kept his room locked and his windows blacked out, communicating little with the outside world and with his mother only over email. When he did communicate, it was with an online cyber community of mass murder enthusiasts. All right,, according to 114-page report released by the Connecticut office of the child advocate detailing how the 20-year-old lived in the days, months, and years before carrying out the mass killings at Sandy Hook Elementary school.

DR. JULIAN FORD, REPORT CO-AUTHOR: Mrs. Lanza's approach to trying to help him was to actually shelter him and protect him try to help him and pull him further away from the world and that in trying to provided proved to be unfortunately a very tragic mistake.

HARLOW: While the report determined that Lanza was not obviously psychotic in the time leading up to the shooting, they did conclude that he appears to have been on a path to violence for some time and identified warning signs and red flags from his family, educators and doctors.

Like his sixth grade project titled, the big book off granny. The project state this project was filled with images and narrative relating child murder, cannibalism and tax determine. It goes on to say quote "the big book of granny can only be described as extremely abhorrent and if it had been carefully reviewed by school staff, it have suggested the need for referral to a child psychiatrist of other mental health professionals for evaluation. It also says a Yale psychologist recommended Lanza be medicated and undergo treatment for severe emotional disability six years before the massacre. But those warnings went unheeded by Lanza's mother, Nancy, who appeared to make no effort to curtail her son's access to guns in house despite his mental deterioration.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think she had a child who struggled from very early on. I think it was stigmatizing for her, I think it was hard for her to handle him. And I think she wanted it to keep it in some ways a secret.

HARLOW: The report concludes that while Lanza's psychiatric problems did not lead directly to the massacre, his severe and deteriorating internalize mental health problems, fascination with violence, combine with access to deadly weapons provided a recipe for mass murder.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: It is tragic and the big question is could this massacre have been prevented? The report could not definitively answer that question or ultimately why Lanza carried out the shooting two years ago.

In just a moment, we will be back with our legal panel who has got a lot to say about this one.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, we just outlined the findings of the new report on the Sandy Hook Elementary massacre by the gunman, Adam Lanza, and found plenty of examples where Lanza's mental health problems for years were misunderstood and just went ignored and mistreated.

Let's talk about it with our panel here. Clinical psychologist Jeff Gardere, criminal defense attorney Mark O'Mara and in Washington, former New York City police commissioner Bernard Kerik.

Let me begin with you, Jeff. It is stunning in this report. It says that Adam Lanza was in his room, in a black room with windows covered for four months straight. Never talked with his mother, only emailed. We know that he emailed mass murder enthusiasts communities online. And expert knew that this was going on. Do you believe this could have been prevented if this had been better handled?

GARDERE: Absolutely. They missed the major signs. That room that he was in for three months was covered with black plastic bags, certainly an obvious sign of a paranoid delusional individuals. So yes, he was becoming psychotic at that point, mom knew this. He was communicating with her by text or email and not even speaking with her.

I believe that this is a woman who was overwhelmed by the complexity of the issues that her son has psychiatric issues, social issues that he had and anything just to keep him quiet. As long as he wasn't acting out she just felt that was the right thing to do. But along with the school, along with the administrators, people just kept missing the signs because they were not talking to one another.

HARLOW: And we don't -- we cannot get answers from her because she was also shot and killed by Adam Lanza, by her own son. Bernard Kerik, to you. Building how much Jeff said about, you know, a

lot of people wanted to know why didn't the mother come forward more or enforcing her hands are son over t the authorities in terms of getting him the proper metal health. The question I think some parents have is well would that get my son landed in jail forever then forever? How do the authorities have to respond to things like this? What we saw in his behavior?

KERIK: You know what, Poppy? I mean, I think that's a key thing here and Jeff and Mark may know a lot more about this than I do. But I can tell you a lot of people will not come forward. A lot of people will call some psychological services and be told -- well, the only thing we can do if you have him arrested if you have him locked up, then he can get the treatment he needs. Prisons, jails are not treatment centers and I think that is a big learning element out of this case that we all have to learn. It's not about having this kid locked up, taken out of society, put into jail, put in prison. It's about getting the treatment that he deserves. And as far as the flag, these were not flags. These were major, major indicators that there was a problem. Why the mother didn't come forward? You know? Nobody is ever going to know because she's not here to talk.

HARLOW: So Mark, legally, where does the legal responsibility lie? In the mother not forcing Adam Lanza before he was an adult to take the medication? Does it lie in the school for basically kicking him out saying you can't go to school here anymore, but then really not providing for him in time, at home in terms of the proper home school? It took a long time. Does it fall on the psychologist that analyzed him?

O'MARA: The problem with it is that the entire system is broken. I know that just sounds like a frustration to say. But to school systems are already over wrought with problems and they are underfunded. You had school psychologists who try to do what they can. You have a mom who is probably trying to survive her own world that she had to leave in with the child like that. Then, you have the maternal instincts to protecting your child and not putting him out into a system that he know isn't going be protective.

HARLOW: But, can any of them be held legally responsible for that?

O'MARA: Is in fact f they had better indications, if you look at 144- page report that we all have. It sort of shows a generic global missing of a lot of signals, lot of signs but not one person who said this person should have been institutionalized. They all tried a little bit. They all my have maybe see grade, but nothing better.

HARLOW: But some of the experts, the psychological experts, that Yale were to standout, the actually did diagnosed this correctly. But, I guess they don't have the power to enforce it?

GARDERE: Well, what happened was you had a put mental health team at the Yale center. So they were able to triangulate and put all of the information together. They put a plan out there but now to get a patient to get this youngster to actually follow through, noncompliant, delusional, paranoid, and certainly does not want to get the help isolating himself. He is not going to follow through with that.

HARLOW: Talk about the positive thing that come out in this report, that the lessons that can be learned, right? And it talks about that. That it says the lessons that can be learned from a review of Adam Lanza's life.

To you, Bernard, looking at this report, what does this tell us about the system, things that should change in the system. That, you know, as Mark said, is broken but what can change?

KERIK: Most importantly, I think the communications between the parents, the schools, the psychological staff, parents have to know what to look for and then in this report and I think the recommendations that will come out of the report are a number of things that you can look at that, you know, the flags, the signals, the behavior, these things, parents have to know. And once they know, once they realized it, they have to know where to go with that information. And if there is anything good going to come out of that, I think that's what it should be. And then the schools have to be responsible to get the appropriate people to these kids as they should.

HARLOW: Yes. And to know that your kid's going to get help and not just locked up so you can trust the system.

O'MARA: One other element is the assault weapon. You know, that kid should not have had any guns and any assault weapons.

HARLOW: I do want to ask you, should there be a discussion about the law in terms of if you're allowed to buy a gun, should the authorities also have to know if anyone is living in your house with a mental disorder.

O'MARA: Absolutely. You can, particularly assault weapons. There is no reason to have them. And when you put them in a hand like that he killed 20 kids because of the assault weapon.

GARDERE: That's right. The report says it wasn't the psychiatric issues or it wasn't the autism. It was having the deteriorating mental health and the access to weapons. That was what cause this.

HARLOW: Those gun rights activists would argue with you on that point and they would say it's the person not the gun. It's an important discussion to continue.

We will be back in just a moment. We are going to talk about a very important story next. Is it safe to send your daughter off to college? Have you read the "Rolling Stone" article about the rape on campus? If you haven't you should. Everyone is talking about it. One university suspending all fraternities on campus as a result. We will discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right, a warning for parents watching the next story that we're going to talk about is not appropriate for your children. You may want to take young children out of the room.

This story is about the University of Virginia, a university that has now suspended all fraternities after a "Rolling Stone" magazine article on an alleged gang rape at the fraternity house came out. The article came out four days ago and everyone is talking about this. The school is holding a news conference tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. eastern time.

I want to tell you about a UVA student. Her name is Jackie. A fraternity member asked her out on a date, her freshman year. She just started school. She was thrilled. But she says after dinner her date led her upstairs at a fraternity house to a darkroom where she was raped.

According to "Rolling Stone," here's a quote. "When yet another hand over her mouth, Jackie bit it and the hand became a fist that punched her in the face. The men surrounding her began to laugh. She remembers every moment of the next three hours of agony during what she says seven men took turns raping her. She remembers how the spectators with beers and how they called each other nicknames like armpit and blanket." You have to read this article. It is heartbreaking.

Let's bring in our panel to discuss it.

It was very hard for me, our entire team, you guys, to read this. The details of not only of what happened to Jackie, but the details of how this and other alleged sexual assaults were handled by the university. And just -- the astonishing numbers, Jeff, the fact is only in five women are sexually assaulted in college and only 12 percent are reported. The system seems like it has failed.

GARDERE: And that's why only 12 percent report. Such a low number because basically institutions such as this one give the message that if you say something you're going to get someone in trouble. You may tarnish the reputation of the school but even worse you may tarnish your own reputation. And you don't want to put yourself to that. And that's the worst advice that you can give because it's about being psychologically free to talk about the fact that you have been assaulted.

HARLOW: But it wasn't, you know, at first, Jackie went to her friends and they picked her up on the street corner that night and she had blood on her dress and some of her friends said you don't really want to go the police because you will be known as that girl.

GARDERE: So where does that come from?

HARLOW: So folks are why, Mark, why is it legal then for universities when this is eventually reported, which it is, which Jackie eventually did at the end of the school year, they gave her options. We can handle it internally or you can go to police.

O'MARA: That shouldn't happen. It truly shouldn't. These are very serious felonies, violent felonies and they have to be prosecuted the way we prosecuted them on the street. While sexual experimentation is OK in college, it sort of the time of like sexual exploitation like this cannot be. And we have to keep in mind --

HARLOW: This is gang rape.

O'MARA: It is.

GARDERE: Absolutely criminal.

O'MARA: No has to mean no and nothing else or else you lose all control. And in the case like this, you can't have fraternities and universities wanting to maintain the community when victim like this is abused.

HARLOW: But Bernard, your thoughts on this?

KERIK: Listen, I agree with what Mark just said. The bottom line is these are violent felonies and they should be prosecuted for those acts. If the school doesn't act, I think the school should be held responsible. Anybody that knew this happened and didn't do something about it or didn't report it to the authorities, or I think it's moronic for a school to tell a teenager or a young adult we can handle it internally or we can notify the authorities. That's BS. It is not -- it shouldn't be handled internally. It should be reported as a crime to the police.

HARLOW: So I want to play you some sound. Because after this "Rolling Stone" article came out another woman came forward. He described her ordeal at the University of Virginia. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had to walk on campus with my rapist for the next two and a half years. There was no reprimand for him. He was on an athletic team. There was no coach that was ever notified. I reported it. I was assigned a detective. Unfortunately because of the situation and that alcohol was involved, it became a he said she said. I know a lot of women who left UVA after they were assaulted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And you know Mark, this isn't just about UVA. This is about colleges across this country. At the same time, how do you also weigh the delicacy of it with the victim if they don't want their name out there? But how do you get justice at the same time?

O'MARA: It's difficult to do. Victims are protected. Rape victims are very protected under most state statutes. Their names, what happened. It is quite protected. But they do have to realize that they need to make the first step. They have to call. This is not a rite of passage in college. You have to know that you will be protected. And even though you are going to take some flak from friends who don't mind a little bit of --

HARLOW: Who cares? Those aren't real friends.

O'MARA: Exactly. You have to know that the system will protect you because that is the only way we are going to make attention to this. GARDERE: And I mean, the system encourages them to report and to

follow this through --

HARLOW: That's the key.

GARDERE: Then you will get more young women to do this.

HARLOW: And I want, Bernard, something on this is the key. Because this article talks about numerous meetings with authority figures at the university and sort of being given options and in some places allegedly sort of encouraged to let us handle this within.

KERIK: It shouldn't be handled within. And he authorities and the school knows that. The school knows that. Any school that says we should handle it within, I think those administrators should be held responsible as well in some way or be held accountable in some way just like the people who committed these acts. This can't go unaddressed.

HARLOW: And I do want to read because the president of the university, Teresa Sullivan, did come out very quickly after this article suspending all of the fraternities until January. We will see what happens after that. Saying in part, "the wrongs described in Rolling Stone are appalling and have caused all of us to reexamine or responsibility to this community. This will require institutional change, cultural change and legislative change and it will not be easy."

Let's hope, please, that something changes this time. Stay with us this evening because in about 30 minutes, I'm going to talk with the "Rolling Stone" writer who broke this story, reported this out in great detail at University of Virginia. That freshman allegedly gang raped, she is going to join us live coming up later on the program to talk about this important reporting.

But now a CNN exclusive. News anchors holding off the record meetings with officer Darren Wilson, the police officer who shot and killed Michael Brown. How are people reacting to this? Details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right, here is a peek behind the scenes of what it's like to be a journalist and causing a lot of people to talk on twitter today. It happens all the time. Our "RELIABLE SOURCE's" host Brian Stelter revealed that several news anchors have been meeting secretly with Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson while the grand jury deliberates his fate. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAIN STELTER, CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCE: Secret locations, entirely off the record, all in the hopes of lands his first television interview. Now, because it was off the record, those anchors can't talk about the meetings and their networks can't really even confirm it happened. But here are the names that I know according to my sources with the caveat that others may have met with Wilson. NBC's Matt Lauer has met with him, so as ABC's George Stephanopoulos, CBS' Scott Pelley, and both the prime time anchors here at CNN, Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right, Brian Stelter joins me here again. Thank you for coming in. Fascinating article. Go read it. It's on CNNmoney.com right now.

This is part of being a journalist. You want an interview that everyone wants. You meet with someone and you talk with them off the record. You let them listen to you. It's about building trust. But there was a lot of uproar on your show today about it, on twitter, that how could they do this.

STELTER: And in fact, because of that controversy on twitter I think during the hour "RELIABLE SOURCE" is on, Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon came on to twitter and confirmed they had meetings but then made the point you are making which is this a natural, normal part of the journalistic process.

But I don't think viewers at home sometimes know that. So it's been good to explain that today, that, for example, when Anderson was trying to interview Donald Sterling earlier this year, he flew to L.A. and had a meeting with Sterling ahead of time, again, to try to gain some trust and some comfort ahead of time. Doesn't mean you ask them softball questions. It just means they have to look you in the eye and believe you will be fair in order to be willing to sit down. Because that is raw. Darren Wilson doesn't have to talk to anybody.

HARLOW: And you never agree to not ask something. That is not -- that is not how it works. But it is about get them getting to know you face to face.

STELTER: Well, and he doesn't have to speak to anybody if he doesn't want to.

HARLOW: He doesn't. And he may never do an interview. We don't know. Were you surprised at the level of outrage? I guess I'm wondering why do you think it is around this in? Is this because this is a flashpoint, this case is shooting?

STELTER: You know, one of the most polarizing stories in years. And I think we see it online. I think we also see it in polling across the country about people's perceptions of the case. We know so little about what actually happened on that terrible afternoon. And yet, many people have already made up their minds. I think it will be a top of the conversation around thanksgiving dinner tables in a few days. Again, even though we don't know the full story.

And so, because of it, some people who were sympathetic to Michael Brown's family and the protesters out there, believe the media is out to get them, believe the media is this part of the problem, believe the media is supporting Darren Wilson and the police. On that a lot of folks who support Darren Wilson and the police and believe that side of the story, I think the media is too sympathetic to protesters. That is one of those stories that it is like a was shock.

HARLOW: And it's our job to get both sides out there. And Michael Brown family --

STELTER: And if you don't want to hear the other side, you might resent the media for telling both sides.

HARLOW: Sure. Michael Brown's family has been talking to the media. Their attorneys have been talking to media. Darren Wilson has not done one interview. His lawyer has not done one interview.

STELTER: That's right. And that's why Matt Lauer and George Stephanopoulos and Anderson Cooper want this interview. Anderson made an important point on twitter after this and said I would love to also interview the grand jury members. I would love to interview everybody involve in the story to get all of the sides of it.

But yes. It's a kind of sneak peek behind the curtain. It's more controversial than most of these interviews because this man is more controversial than most.

HARLOW: Yes. Well, fascinating to know. And Brian has exclusive report again on CNN's money.com.

Stick around. We are going to talk about Bill Cosby in that situation in just a moment. A journalist standing up for Bill Cosby calling the media coverage of the allegation against him, a crucifixion. We are going to get Brian's take after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: America is fixated on another story these days, Bill Cosby. The entertainer is in the headlines still because of multiple accusations of rape over a number of years. Many of them not new allegations. Some accusers made the claims before, although, Cosby has never been charged. But there are now new accusers. And the story has taken on a scope, really, like we have not seen before.

Joining me to talk about it is CNN's host of 'RELIABLE SOURCE" Brian Stelter.

So interesting, a guest on CNN this week, Chicago journalist called this a media crucifixion of him. And Cosby has even said that the media is conflicted in this. That we have rushed the story, we the media, rush the story to air without vetting that media would normally do. What's your take?

STELTER: I think "the Washington Post" number this morning was 16 women. Sixteen women, some of whom we have never heard from before who are now going on the record. I have to imagine there might be a 17th out there somewhere. I hope I'm wrong, by the way. I hope I'm wrong. And I hope this writer in Chicago is right.

I hope that the media has blown this out of proportion and gone too far. But it sure does not feel that way. The lawyer, you know, you were talking about Cosby's lawyer coming out and saying that the media is vilifying him. Well, the lawyer also said, when will it end? I don't think this ends until we hear from Cosby. And Cosby over the weekend with that Florida performance again. He got a standing ovation from the crowd. Still has a lot of fans and we should keep that in mind. But he said to an interviewer there, he said, reporters should fact check. People should fact check.

HARLOW: And I don't have to respond to innuendo.

STELTER: No. This is not about fact checking now. I mean, reporters are fact checking. They are doing a lot of cross referencing. They are trying to find friends and family of these women, of the accusers.

HARLOW: Interviewing the women.

STELTER: That's right. And in some cases they have succeeded. "the Washington Post" this morning, one of the women had a story that checked out according to other family members at the time. And all that. So I think in this case, journalists are doing the right thing. There has definitely been saturation coverage and sometimes, you know, that can seem like too much. It is a big story.

HARLOW: But many have said the media didn't cover it enough when these allegations came out beforehand. That some say because of who Bill Cosby is.

STELTER: And because of his power. You know, we see that power dynamic in the AP video that we have been airing in the post few days. For a young journalist in the AP tries to interview Cosby, tries to question Cosby about these allegations. And Cosby says, we don't talk about that.

HARLOW: Scuttle that he says.

STELTER: Yes. You can see the power dynamic. Now, that dynamic is gone now. Cosby doesn't have that power anymore. But he did for decades. And in some ways, this press coverage lately is a necessary correction to the past lack of attention.

HARLOW: And by the way, we have invited and continue to invite Bill Cosby to come on and to talk to.

STELTER: You know, I have data, been calling his personal publicist, never getting a call back. You know, we have seen his lawyer's comments. But that is all we have heard.

HARLOW: Yes. That's all we have heard. Brian Stelter, good to have you on the program. Thank you very much.

STELTER: Thanks.

END