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Sources: Grand Jury to Reconvene Monday; Obama Donor's Sex Scandal; Sexual Abuse Crisis at UVA?
Aired November 23, 2014 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.
The Missouri grand jury considering criminal charges against Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown will reconvene tomorrow. Nine of the 12 grand jurors must agree for this case to go forward. We do not know when they might reach a decision.
But once they decide, local officials are telling us we could get the news quickly. Instead of as you had previously heard the 48-hour delay between the decision and it becoming public.
Let's go straight to Don Lemon. He is standing by live in Ferguson.
Don, you spoke with a resident just a few minutes ago. What's the sense on the street there?
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, I did. I did. I'm glad you asked me that, because she just walked up. She said I saw you guys out here again. I'm glad you're back. I didn't get to come and speak to you the last time you were here because it was so much chaos going on. And she's -- I mean, she came over and she hugged all of our crew, an African-American resident. She lives beyond us here. She said maybe a quarter mile behind us.
She said, I am -- it's not like what you see on television. This is her estimation. She said -- and her name is Shirley. I think, was her name Shirley? I forget.
She said, I'm praying for the safety of the officer, I'm praying for the family and for the protesters. I don't want violence in my community. She said she believes that most people in her community feel the same way. And she wants the world -- she wanted us to hear that so we could tell it to the world.
So, that's really the sentiment that I'm getting here. Yes, people are upset. They have the right to protest, rightfully so. Many people are upset because they feel that an unarmed teenager was killed. So, they have the right to protest. No one is denying that.
But, again, as I have been saying since I got here to you, Poppy, it is not the way it's being made out on social media and in much of the mainstream media. The streets of Ferguson are not on fire. People are not enraged. You don't walk up to them and they go, I'm so upset. HARLOW: Right.
LEMON: Most people just want peace and they want fairness. That's what they want.
HARLOW: So, when you -- Don, we were talking about this last hour a little bit. But I have had people come to me, CNN viewers and say, you know, do you think you guys are complicit in this? Do you think you are sort of, you know, making things bigger than they are?
So, you're -- I mean, you are there in the middle of it. You'll be live from there tomorrow night for your showdown. As a journalist, when you look at how you cover this, it's an important story to cover, the people do have feelings and they do want them heard. But how do you walk that line, right?
LEMON: Well, it's very legitimate. I say because I lived in St. Louis and I know that there's an issue, not only in St. Louis, not only in Ferguson, there's an issue -- there's a disconnect between the police department and people in the community, especially between the police department and African-Americans and many times, African- American men.
That has to be dealt with. But that is also separate and apart from violence. The violence overshadows the legitimate part of the story.
But also, there's a dead teenager at the center of this. There's also a police officer whose reputation and livelihood and life is on the line as well. We must remember that. We have to report that side of the story. We have to report the Brown side of the story and the protesters' side of the story as well.
But I have to tell you quite honestly, as I sometimes am sitting in my office and looking up and watching, you know, the cable networks and you see Ferguson, Ferguson, Ferguson, you know, there's an impending announcement about something, and I got, on Friday, a little bit of anxiety. I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. When I got here, that subsided.
If you pay attention to Twitter all the time, the social media, you see people so enraged on social media and you don't actually find that when you come here.
HARLOW: Yes. All right. Don, thank you for the reporting. We know you'll be there live all day tomorrow and throughout. Appreciate it.
All right. Let's talk more about this grand jury decision, what lies ahead in Ferguson. Two our legal analyst joining us now, criminal defense attorney Mark O'Mara and Joey Jackson.
Joey, the fact that these 12 grand jurors continue to meet, we know they're going to meet tomorrow. We thought maybe a decision Friday. We still don't know even if they're going to hear more evidence.
Are you concerned that maybe there might be a deadlock here, that nine can't get on the same page? Are you just glad that they are taking their time?
JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In a word, I'm not concerned. Let me tell you why, Poppy. Listen, the grand jury in evaluating this, number one, unlike another grand jury where the evidence is tailored to specifically get an indictment --
HARLOW: Right.
JACKSON: -- or they've given enough to find probable cause, this case is different. They're getting everything. So, the extent they are getting everything, that takes time.
Number two, in addition to that, we know that they're not meeting every day. Unlike a regular trial, Poppy, you impanel a jury and then, every day you're working 9:00 to 5:00. That's not what's happening. They're meeting once a week, and at other times, when the 12 can't collectively agree, and so therefore, that takes times.
And finally, Poppy, think about what they're deciding. They have to go through what we have been talking about. Is it murder one? Is it murder two? Is it manslaughter? Is it involuntary manslaughter?
HARLOW: Is it no charge?
JACKSON: Or is it nothing? And is it justification? Was there an imminent threat? And was that reasonable? And so, given, in light of all the circumstances, I think that's exactly what they should be doing and it's not a delay. It's just the natural course of events. So, I'm unconcerned based on those three factors.
HARLOW: Mark, you have said you believe it's a mistake on the side of the defense counsel for Officer Wilson that he -- the lawyer hasn't been out there and that he hasn't put his client out there at well. So, no one has seen him. No one has heard his voice.
But ultimately, that shouldn't impact what the grand jury decides. You are saying in the court of public opinion?
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it definitely is in the court of public opinion. Twenty years ago, I would never have said that. But in 2014, the idea of having a nationally publicized case, and having a complete exact view of anything having to do with Darren Wilson could have some negative impact on the potential jurors.
It may have an impact on the grand jury, because we know they are listening, they're watching TV. They could be watching us right now. If they're not getting anything from Darren Wilson --
HARLOW: And they can do that.
O'MARA: They can.
(CROSSTALK)
O'MARA: Yes, and they could be filling in the void with their own speculation. I'm not saying you should say I'm this or that. But just have a media presence, just --
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: If you're on interview (ph), you're saying something.
O'MARA: Something. You know, even if -- even if he just come out and say the process is working, I want to respect the process.
Here's something else he should say, he did take a life. He can acknowledge having taken a life, because that he did do. Justify, that will be up to the grand jury. But at least have the human side of it saying I'm sorry to the Brown family, because your son is not here because of my actions.
HARLOW: All right. Guys, stick with us. More to talk about this.
We're going to take a quick break. We're going to talk about this incredibly important life story.
Greek life. Huge part of the social scene at the University of Virginia. Now, though, some of those -- some say those organizations at the heart of the school's problem, with sexual abuse. And women who dare to speak out say they feel like traitors. We'll discuss.
Also ahead: a prominent Democratic fund-raiser and supporter of President Obama arrested on serious sex charges. The alleged victim, a 15-year-old boy. But Terry Bean's attorney says it's her client who's the victim. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Well, the Democratic Party is not saying anything yet after a prominent fund-raiser and a friend of President Obama is charged in a sex scandal with a juvenile. The suspect Terry Bean is a big Democratic donor, a celebrated gay rights activist and a familiar face in Oregon.
Erin McPike has the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Terry Bean has been a major fund-raiser for the president, bundling a reported half million dollars for his 2012 re-election campaign.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to thank somebody who put so much work into this event, Terry Bean. Give Terry a big round of applause.
(APPLAUSE)
MCPIKE: And here is Mr. Obama praising Bean at a 2009 event for the Human Rights Campaign, the politically influential gay rights group he co-founded.
OBAMA: To my great friend and supporter Terry Bean, co-founder of HRC --
(APPLAUSE)
MCPIKE: Now, police say Bean, who is 66, has been arrested in Portland, Oregon, charged with sodomy and sex abuse of an underage boy, reportedly a 15-year-old. Also arrested on the same charges, 25- year-old Kiah Lawson, identified in news reports as Bean's former boyfriend.
In a statement, Bean's lawyer says, quote, "over the course of several months in 2013 and 2014, Terry was the victim of an extortion ring led by several men known to law enforcement. This current arrest is connected to the ongoing investigation of that case in which Mr. Bean has fully cooperated. No allegations against Terry Bean should be taken at face value. We look forward to the opportunity to clear his name.
Lawson's former attorney told "The Oregonian" newspaper that Lawson had stumbled upon a camera Bean had used to secretly record sexual encounters with him and other men, took screen shots and hoped to secure money from Bean in an exchange for their return. That led Bean to allege extortion.
Erin McPike, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: All right. Erin, thank you for that. Let's bring in our legal analysts. Mark O'Mara and Joey Jackson are back with me, both criminal defense attorneys.
Mark, these are serious charges, but Bean's attorney is saying no, my client is a victim, he's being extorted in all of this, obviously a big name, a big donor. But serious charges. What kind of punishment could he face?
O'MARA: It's sad (ph) to say, it's according to how they charge him and what they charge him with. It can go from a misdemeanor Joey just told me --
JACKSON: Yes.
O'MARA: -- to a very serous felony.
HARLOW: A misdemeanor?
(CROSSTALK)
O'MARA: It's the type of act.
JACKSON: We were just -- just before, you know, we came back, we were talking about this. And we were surprised to know that depending upon the type of act, one charge carries -- it's a many demeanor -- carrying a year in jail and a C felony only carries five years in jail for a crime against a youth. Now, I'm not suggesting he's guilty. We'll have to see how that develops. HARLOW: Right.
JACKSON: But we're very surprised.
O'MARA: Having said that, if they charge it the right way, if there's a true what we call a penetration act, it could be a more serious felony. That could be years and years in prison.
HARLOW: And in terms of whether this should be looked at on a state level or federal level --
O'MARA: Most likely, this is going to be a state case. That's the way it's always --
HARLOW: Also, Joey, what we are hearing, it's still new in terms of the reporting that's coming in, but there is word there may have been a hidden camera that may have captured this alleged action, if indeed it did happen.
What does that mean if we see any video evidence? Because, again, the attorney for Bean is saying, look, this is -- my client has been extorted.
JACKSON: Extortion.
Right. I mean, listen, any evidence, of course, Poppy, in this day and age -- we see it now where people have cell phones and there's other surveillance information. But it's very compelling.
Just imagine putting something like that before the jury. It's proof positive. What are you going to say? It's not authentic? It's not my client? It's not something that depicts what you think you see. And so, certainly, if there's video evidence --
HARLOW: Or you're already seeing part of this.
JACKSON: It could be argued that. But remember, Poppy, based upon the age of the alleged victim, it doesn't matter what happened.
HARLOW: You're right.
JACKSON: It's just that it happened becomes the problem.
HARLOW: Mark, we haven't heard anything from certainly the president on this, the Democratic Party. Does that surprise you at all?
O'MARA: I think everyone on that side is going to be very silent unless they know what's going on. It's funny. We talked a little while ago about a defense having a media presence in a high-profile case. One thing I don't think you should do is allege that the victim or the presumed victim is extorting you until you know what's going on, because that lack -- yes, that lack of remorse --
HARLOW: That was not a good strategy.
O'MARA: Absolutely not. Stay silent until you know a lot more than you know now.
JACKSON: I think he knows.
HARLOW: Guys, thank you. We appreciate it.
JACKSON: Thank you, Poppy.
HARLOW: We'll be back with you in just a moment.
Coming up next, we're going to talk about this. Imagine there is a place where according to one "Rolling Stone" reporter, rape is seen as, quote, "regrettable but inevitable." Would you feel safe sending your daughter to such a place? What if we told you this was one of the country's most prestigious universities? We'll talk about it, next.
But coming up also, many people are asking thankfully simpler questions about college. Like, is it worth it? Is it worth all the money? If you are wondering about that yourself, you're not going to want to miss what's on CNN tonight at 9:00 p.m., the original CNN film, "Ivory Tower". Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's going to be a collapse, one way or another, there's going to be a crisis. It gets to the price where the price of a degree is so high that people don't want to pay for it anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not what most colleges want to talk about. They want to pretend education is something non-financial. It's an end in itself. These are very noble ideals. But they don't make sense when people are taking on $100,000, $200,000 in student debt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: All right. I want to warn you that the next story we are about to report is not appropriate for children. If you have young kids, you may want to take them out of the room for this.
It's about the University of Virginia where they have suspended all fraternities after a "Rolling Stone" magazine article talked about an alleged gang rape at a frat house of a young girl, a freshman girl named Jackie. The school is holding a news conference tomorrow morning.
"Rolling Stone" contributing editor Sabrina Rubin Erdely joins me now.
Thank you for being here, first of all, and this reporting.
SABRINA RUBIN ERDELY, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE: Thank you for having me.
HARLOW: All right. Before I begin, I want to read all our viewers a quote from your article on this student. Her name is Jackie. And what she went through inside that fraternity house, what she said she went through.
In part you write, "When you had another hand clamped over her mouth, Jackie bit it and the hand became a fist that punched her in the face. The men surrounding her began to laugh. She remembers every moment of the next three hours of agony during which she says seven men took turns raping her. She remembers how the spectators swigged beers and how they called each other nicknames like Armpit and Blanket."
You use not their real names in this report of the men. And I'm wondering, what has happened to them now that Jackie has come forward with these allegations? I mean, you detail how she finally went to the school and the authorities there. Are they still walking around on campus?
ERDELY: They are walking around as though nothing has happened. Jackie did go to the school to report her allegations. And the school did absolutely nothing. And in fact, even when Jackie went to them a year later to tell them that two other girls had told her that they, too, had been gang raped at the same fraternity, the administration also did nothing. Not only to pursue these girls' cases, but they also did nothing to warn the campus that there had been these allegations at a fraternity that was holding parties every weekend.
HARLOW: And that, you know, we heard from the president of the university who did take swift action in suspending all these fraternities until January. Some people want to see a lot more than that. But the president, Teresa Sullivan, said, "The wrongs described in the 'Rolling Stone' article are appalling and have caused us all of to re-examine our responsibility to this community. This will require institutional change, cultural change and legislative change and it won't be easy."
What kind of change needs to happen? You spent months and months there on the ground reporting this.
ERDELY: Well, I'm encouraged to hear the kind of words that she's using. Those are fairly strong words. But I'm less interested in the words and more interested in the actions that they are going to take, because this is a situation that needs a lot of fixing. It's a situation where seemingly fraternities are calling the shots, where sexual assault is rampant, where rape victims are afraid and discouraged from coming forward by both their peers and subtly discouraged by administrators from filing reports.
HARLOW: Well, that's --
ERDELY: And those few --
HARLOW: Go ahead.
ERDELY: Oh, those few rape survivors who do persist in filing reports, very few of them actually find the outcome satisfying, the perpetrators are very rarely penalized. So, I would say that this university really has its hands full. HARLOW: You know, it was amazing to me some of the statistics you
pointed out. One in five college students sexually assaulted. Only 12 percent report it.
And the fact that for Jackie after this happened, minutes after this happened, she walks out from the fraternity house on the corner waiting for her friends to pick her up. She's got blood on her dress. When she -- when they come, they say, are you really sure you want to report this to the police? Do you really want to go to the hospital? Do you really want to be known as that girl?
I mean, that is unbelievable to me that even her peers, many of them didn't stand by her.
ERDELY: I would say of all the shocking things that I discovered in my reporting, that was possibly the most shocking, that Jackie's friends discouraged her from moving forward. They told her that her reputation would be shot. She wouldn't be allowed to go to any fraternity parties. They told her that she was being a baby and that she should just move on.
Believe it or not, that was actually the response that most of the rape victims at UVA that I spoke with got from their peers. They were discouraged from even really considering it a trauma or a crime. But they were more encouraged to see it as a misunderstanding, a party foul, something to just sort of brush off, move on and just get back to the party scene.
HARLOW: To be clear here, your article details seven men gang-raping allegedly gang raping this young woman. This is, this is -- you know, unbelievable and difficult to even comprehend.
Stay with me, Sabrina. I want to bring in also a clinical psychologist Jeff Gardere and our legal analyst Joey Jackson, to continue this conversation with us.
Joey, should it be legal for universities to be able, as Sabrina details in her report, to handle things like this, allegations like this internally and give victims the option of not taking it to the police and the authorities?
JACKSON: The short answer is, absolutely not. Very disturbing in terms of the report. I read the article, the "Rolling Stones" article and it's disturbing is an under statement for sure.
There is a Clery Act from 1990. And what that does, it's a federal statute under Title 19. What it does -- Title 9, excuse me. And what it does is universities are mandatory reporters. And, certainly, there are people in those universities who have to report these incidences and they have to document even all crimes that occur on campus.
And, you know, interestingly enough, Poppy, two other things need to be raised about this.
The first is thing, when victims don't report, obviously, critical evidence is washed away and that type of thing. But there's more to it than that. And what I mean by that is you can go forward and you can have a very compelling prosecution in the event the police are ultimately made aware of it, because you have recent outcry victims.
HARLOW: Yes.
JACKSON: In that article, she went to someone. Those people can testify in front of a jury at some later time.
The second thing, Poppy, very briefly, is there's no statute of limitations on rape in this jurisdiction. So, the charge is very much viable in Virginia.
So, to the extent she goes forward now, it still could be very compelling when the jury hears about this.
HARLOW: And to you, Jeff, at the same time, you have to be so thoughtful and careful about the victim's feelings. Not all victims understandably want to go to the police right away. So, how do you get justice and do that?
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PYSCHOLOGIST: Well, what needs to happen as we saw in the "Rolling Stone" article, you have to change the culture at the school, not only do you protect the victim and make sure that she's supported in every way possible, but you have to encourage the victims to report. And if you don't have that, then you are going to have friends -- so-called friends who tell her, do you really want do this? Do you really want to have that kind of reputation?
That becomes part of the culture where rape becomes institutionalized in that particular kind of a university. So, all of that has to be changed. The fish stinks from the head down in this kind of a situation. So, we've got to support the victims, but we have to get them to report.
HARLOW: Sabrina, how is Jackie doing now?
ERDELY: Jackie is still incredibly traumatized by what happened to her. But she feels incredibly empowered and proud she was able to come forward and tell her story. It has been a really gratifying for her that there's been in outpouring of support for her.
I have also gotten an outpouring of messages from other UVA survivors -- rape survivors who are still students or recent graduates saying similar things happened to them and offering their support to Jackie.
So, all of that has bolstered her and will hopefully help her along in her healing.
HARLOW: And I can't imagine what it's like for her to even come forward and be able to tell this story and share this story. And she is not alone in it. It is tragic. Thank you so much for the reporting and bringing this to light, Sabrina.
ERDELY: Thank you.
HARLOW: And, Jeff and Joey, thank you guys as well.
Coming up next on the program, the U.S. and Iran are on the verge of a historic -- possibly a historic nuclear deal. But if it falls through, some think the fallout could be catastrophic. We will discuss next.
Also, Ferguson, Missouri, on edge this evening. But some protesters in the city are trying to push for peace. Ahead, you'll hear from one woman who knows firsthand how bad those clashes can get.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Deadline tomorrow. I'm talking about one of the most delicate diplomatic challenges facing world powers today. How much to restrict Iran and its nuclear program. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is in Vienna along with his counterparts from Russia, China, Britain, France and of course Iran.
We're hearing now that this attempt to get a deal may be extended in hopes that what John Kerry calls big gaps in the negotiations can be closed.
Let's bring in our senior political analyst David Gergen. He's joined also with Chris Dickey, foreign editor for the "Daily Beast."
Thank you, guys, for being here.
Let me give with you, David.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure.
HARLOW: Of course the question is how long can this be extended? But also, do you want to let perfect be the enemy of the good?
GERGEN: No, you never do in diplomacy if you can. Even so, I think it would be a great disappointment if they don't reach an agreement. They very much hope they would. They extended it already beyond the six months that were originally anticipated.
HARLOW: Right.
GERGEN: It's dangerous if you don't reach an agreement tomorrow. All signs point to the fact that they're going to seek an extension. I don't know what Chris thinks but my sense is if they go for an extension, they'll have one eye on the United States Senate knowing that the power is going to transfer --
HARLOW: They have to agree?
GERGEN: And they'll see if they get a deadline before the Senate gets there. If they don't get an agreements, these Republicans are likely to push for much tougher sanctions.
HARLOW: Do you agree then that this will likely come if we are going to see an agreement before January? CHRISTOPHER DICKEY, FOREIGN EDITOR, THE DAILY BEAST: If we're going
to see an agreement, I think it has to come before January. And I think that they want to take the momentum they've got now. For all the talk about big gaps, I think they feel that they're very close. I don't think they have all those foreign ministers arriving in Vienna today if they didn't feel that they could build on this momentum and push it forward.
David is perfectly right about the Senate. Once it goes over to complete Republican control, it's going to be almost impossible to get a deal with the Iranians through that Senate. But there's also the problem on the Iranian side, the conservatives in Iran.
HARLOW: Right. So you've -- right.
DICKEY: Even the supreme leader Ayatollah Khomeini are not wildly enthusiastic about this deal.
HARLOW: Right. So Obama has Congress that he's going to have to answer to. And then you've also got the supreme leader in Iran.
GERGEN: I don't think you can blame it only on the two wings of each party.
HARLOW: OK.
GERGEN: You know, the fundamentally -- these parties are going to try very hard to make a deal. And they've been working very, very hard. I think Chris is right. The foreign ministers are coming because they realized how important it is. This is an hour of really -- a moment.
HARLOW: Well, put it in context, Chris. I mean, you've covered numerous administrations throughout the years. How big is this?
GERGEN: Well, I just came back from the Middle East with -- you know, from a gathering of diplomats in the region. And I must tell you, it's much, much bigger in that region than it is here in America. You know, we got Ferguson, we got all these other things we're paying attention to. But in the Middle East, it's a very, very big deal. It can be quote destabilizing the Middle East if we don't get a deal.
We have to get some kind of agreement which brings the Iran nuclear program into a zone of safety and then move toward lifting these sanctions. That is the ultimate goal. No deal will mean an arms race in the Middle East. Iranians will probably try to step things up. I can tell you the Saudis --
HARLOW: It will be next.
GERGEN: Yes. It's very likely. It's what President Obama has been saying all along. We have to get a deal so we prevent --
HARLOW: So --
GERGEN: The Saudis are not going to sit there and watch the Iranians make a bomb without doing something. HARLOW: So as recently, Chris, yesterday we heard John Kerry describe
the gaps as big gaps. For the average American, what does that mean? Where are the biggest sticking points?
DICKEY: Well, essentially the problem is that they -- there are a lot of people including in Congress who would like to see the entire nuclear program of Iran done away with. And that's sort of the starting point from the United States' point of view. That's not going to happen.
HARLOW: That's not going to happen.
DICKEY: That's not going to happen. That's not going to come close to happening. So then the question is how far you're going to roll it back. And the answer is not very far. What you can do is you're going to freeze it, what's been done, which is what's happened over the last year. But you're not going to get -- take away the technology, you're not going to take away the equipment, you're not going to take away the ability to do all of that.
At the same time, the Iranians are saying, look, you have to raise the sanctions. You can't just create a situation where you impose the sanctions today, you lift them tomorrow and then when you decide to, you re-impose them. We've got to have a steady environment, among other things, businessmen need to know they can invest in the country.
HARLOW: What we're working with. David?
GERGEN: Well, there are two big issues here. One is, how much of a capacity do the Iranians have to make a bomb? When we first started these negotiations, the U.S. deal was they've got to dismantle everything. Chris -- as Chris said, it's not going to happen now. We've already compromised back to allow them something. The question is, how much do we allow them? How long will it take them to make a bomb?
HARLOW: And is Rouhani a better -- I don't know if the word partner is right for the U.S., but in these negotiations, is Rouhani more reliable in trying to get it done this time around?
DICKEY: We don't know for certain. If you talk to people in the Middle East they'll say that Rouhani has all sorts of promises of being more moderate. But is he just a different mouthpiece for a government that's still very, very hostile --
HARLOW: I heard that from some Iranian protesters here in the U.S.
Quickly before we go, Christopher, in your "Daily Beast" piece today you say this is a question of war or peace. Can it be overemphasized what a big deal this is?
DICKEY: No, I don't think it can be. I think it is a question of war or peace. If you look back two years ago we were all wondering when Israel was going to attack Iran. And if that happened and when it happened, would the United States be drawn into a massive war with Iran in the Middle East? That will reemerge as the issue if these talks fail.
GERGEN: I agree with that. You know, and so the middle ground is the extension. But it postpones the hour of reckoning.
HARLOW: Don't let this --
GERGEN: We have to get to an hour of reckoning.
HARLOW: Wow. All right.
GERGEN: Right.
HARLOW: Well, we have our correspondents in Vienna watching this very closely. As soon as we get any update, we'll bring it to our viewers.
GERGEN: Thanks, Poppy. Thanks.
HARLOW: Gentlemen, thank you for joining me this evening.
Coming up next, can something good come out of what could be chaos in Ferguson after the grand jury's announcement? We don't know what will happen. But we are watching.
Next, we're going to speak with someone who has seen protesters and police at their worst. What does she expect to see? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Well, the wait may soon be over in Ferguson, Missouri. Local government officials there tell CNN if the grand jury reaches a decision tomorrow, well, then after it reconvenes, a public announcement may soon follow. In other words, officials may scrap that planned 48-hour window between the grand jury's decision and when they make that decision public.
We know the grand jury is considering whether Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson should be indicted for fatally shooting an unarmed black teenager Michael Brown.
Let's go straight to Don Lemon, he is in Ferguson.
Don, you've been there throughout. And you were there for a long time after the fact and you're back now. What's it like? What's the sense of people in Ferguson right now?
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR, CNN TONIGHT: Yes. And I didn't just, you know, stay here and then go away and then just came back today. I've been back off and on throughout the entire time and talking to people here, doing stories on people here.
So, you know, I have been here and I've seen a lot. I have seen the difference really in the community since the initial unrest. And gradually, I do think it's going better. A better person to talk about this is the Reverend Renita Lamkin. She joins us now. She's from the Saint John AME Church in St. Charles.
REV. RENITA MARIE LAMKIN, PASTOR, ST JOHN AME: Correct.
LEMON: Missouri. And she joins us now.
So am I wrong? Things have changed? They've gotten progressively better, don't you think? Still a lot to work out. What's your assessment?
LAMKIN: I think that in terms of protesters, people are peaceful. There have been a lot of organized protests, very planned, very choreographed, dramatic even. A lot of training for protesters and non-violent resistance, a lot of training for people who will beyond the straight healthy to be peacekeepers, medic type training, de- escalation training.
LEMON: But not as much violence as we saw in the event?
LAMKIN: No violence.
LEMON: No. So -- and do you get the sense that? Do you think that Ferguson is being portrayed fairly by?
LAMKIN: No. No. I think that -- as I watch media, it looks like we are ready to go burn down the city and tear everything up. That's totally not true. People are loud, protesters are -- we are loud, we are intense. We block off traffic. But we aren't doing violent things. And there are not plans in the general population to do violence.
LEMON: And I just heard you say that you were -- in the beginning, you were hit by a rubber bullet.
LAMKIN: Wooden pellet actually.
LEMON: Wooden pellet. And it was -- it was part of a conversation about the over over-militarization of police departments. And you are a big part of that now. Do you find that here?
LAMKIN: I do. There are some times when there are certain battalions that are out that it's very clear they've been trained in civil disobedience and their stance is more relaxed. But they are still coming out in riot gear when we are out there with nothing.
LEMON: As we wait for some sort of a decision, what do you think is going to happen once there is a decision, depending on what -- do you think it's going to make a difference depending on what the decision is? Do you think there's going to be violence?
LAMKIN: No, I still don't think there's going to be violence. Might there be faction groups that are not really part of us springing up? Maybe so. I -- you know, I can't predict that. But in terms of just us here on the ground, people who have been in this movement for the past 109 days now, no, we have some planned actions and we have some planned activities to do, but we are not planning violence.
LEMON: What about the relationship between police and the community? Do you think that's improved or a work in progress? How do you feel? LAMKIN: It's a work in progress. There's definitely been some
intentional effort on the part of what they call the Unified Command to be in the neighborhood talking to different groups, micro groups, protesters. There has been some intentional outreach. And over and over again we say our angst isn't with individuals. The angst is with the system.
LEMON: The system.
LAMKIN: And so until the system changes, we will continue protesting the system and unfortunately, you know, our neighborhood cops are the guys on the front line of the system.
LEMON: Thank you.
LAMKIN: Yes.
LEMON: Reverend, I appreciate it.
LAMKIN: You're welcome.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you.
Poppy, back to you. Again, coming from someone who's been here the entire time, a reverend here who has been involved in the movement, in the protests, trying to get the police and the community to work together.
HARLOW: Yes. And let's hope we see that more this time. It sounds like, Don, the reflection of what's on the streets right now as people are going to make their voices heard. But a large majority of them wanted to be heard in a very peaceful way.
All right, Don. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Well, a prominent civil rights leader says if Officer Darren Wilson is not charged, then it will be a miscarriage of justice.
Ahead, hear the president's take on that and whether our experts agree or not.
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HARLOW: Well, civil rights leader and Georgia Congressman John Lewis says it will be a miscarriage of justice if there is no grand jury indictment in Ferguson of Officer Darren Wilson. Lewis led the march at Selma nearly 50 years ago and compares Ferguson to that iconic moment in U.S. history. Earlier today President Obama was asked if he agreed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I love John. I didn't see the quote. So I don't want to comment on what John specifically said, but I will say this. That the kinds of ongoing problems we have with police and communities of color around the country are not of the sort that we saw in Selma. We're not talking about systematic segregation or discrimination.
They are solvable problems if, in fact, law enforcement officials are open to the kind of training that -- and best practices that we've seen instituted in a lot of parts of the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: All right, let me bring in CNN political commentator Marc Lamont Hill, also Kevin Jackson, author and executive director of the political action group the BlackSphere.
Gentlemen, before I ask you my first question, I do want to read our viewers the quote that came from John Lewis. And here's what he said. "I think what is happening is moving to that point where there will be the same feeling and climate and environment that we had in Selma. Selma was the turning point and I think what happened in Ferguson will be the turning point."
Let me begin with you, Kevin. Do you agree putting it in that context that the congressman has?
KEVIN JACKSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE BLACKSPHERE: Absolutely not. I think John Lewis has lost his mind. The idea that there's some new civil rights movement afoot, when there are professional black -- you're looking at two of them right now, all over this country doing amazing things.
And what really cracks me up about all this, Poppy, is Ferguson, Missouri, has suddenly become the hotbed of all this racial tension. When you look at this town, and Don said it earlier, you've got this amazing town, full of amazing black people that are just doing fantastic things, and John Lewis wants to -- I don't know what his agenda would be to say something like that, but to me, it's absurd.
HARLOW: So --
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I totally --
HARLOW: Marc, to you, I know that you disagree. But Don Lemon has also been reporting on the ground about the contact in terms of the strained race relations that many have felt there in Ferguson, especially as some residents there have told us and our correspondents on the ground between residents and authority figures, including the police -- Marc.
HILL: Yes. And I totally agree that that happens. And for the record, I mean, yes. I think this is another Selma-like moment. Yes, there are black professionals now in 2014. There were black professionals in the 1960s. Martin Luther King was one of them. He had a PhD. So there's no correlation necessarily between having the existence of a black professional class and having racial tension.
The question is, is there also a black underclass that is struggling with these very issues. Yes, Ferguson is an amazing town. I've spent some time here since the shooting and it is a wonderful town with wonderful things going on and many wonderful people. But that doesn't negate the fact that black men are getting arrested, more -- they're getting pulled over more, they're being incarcerated more, they're going to sub-standard schools more.
And not just men, forgive me, men and women. So all of this is happening, this is all something that we need to think about. And when I go out in the streets, and I've spent the last -- last few days here now and many weeks here since the shooting, talking to people, and that's exactly what they're talking about. They feel oppressed, they feel marginalized, they feel surveilled. They feel harassed. And they feel like this is happening systemically.
This is -- I disagree with President Obama. This is a systemic issue.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: Well, I completely disagree. And, look, Poppy, one of the things that Marc talks about is this systemic thing, and the statistics on this stuff, this is a predominantly black area. So the majority of the people who are going to be pulled over and all the things that are being talked about are going to happen to the predominant people. Look, the Ferguson Police, they --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: That's not what disproportionate means.
JACKSON: Hold on a second.
HILL: That's not what you not -- that's not how (INAUDIBLE).
JACKSON: They were --
HILL: That's not how statistics work.
JACKSON: They were -- let me just finish. They --
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: Marc, let him finish and then you can jump in.
JACKSON: The police were rated number three -- yes, please. The police were looked at in terms of the problems in Ferguson. They were number three in terms of how much the people liked what was happening in Ferguson. Marc comes in. He talks to a few people. I live here. I'm on the ground here. I don't just talk to somebody when I come in. I'm talking to people every day.
The problems that these people talk about in terms of this 1960s anachronistic stuff that's supposedly happening is utterly ridiculous. And the problem is these very police officers have to go back into the black communities and serve these very people who are dealing with homicides, dealing with rape, dealing with other atrocities that are happening, and they're setting up the police for failure because of nonsense. That's what this is about.
HARLOW: OK. Marc? HILL: Well, just first a correction.
HARLOW: Marc, I know -- go ahead.
HILL: OK. Please. No, no, I didn't mean to interrupt you, Poppy, go ahead.
HARLOW: No, no, I wanted -- I know you were going back and forth with Kevin about the statistics. So go ahead and make that point and then I'd like your reaction to what he said.
HILL: I'm not going to do with the deeper premise. Just as a trained social scientist, I can tell you that it's not purely about the aggregate number of black people. I'm saying, even when you control the population, that's what we mean when we say people are overrepresented, we mean in relation to the proportion of the population.
And even when you control the number of blacks in the population, we're still overrepresented and being pulled over, being arrested. It's said in all the stats that I gave. That's just simply scientifically incorrect. But to the bigger point here. No, I don't live here. I agree with that. But this is not something unique to Ferguson. That's my point.
This is a Selma-like moment around the country. And when you go from city to city, state to state, what you see are young people who are black and brown and poor and outside and as a consequence of being young, black, brown, poor and outside, they are being socially marginalized and they have said enough. It's time to rise up.
And that's why this moment is so special. Not because Ferguson is something that hasn't happened before. Ferguson happens all the time. Every 28 hours. The question is, this doesn't happen in this way at this time.
HARLOW: OK.
HILL: And the answer is no.
HARLOW: Kevin --
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: Yes. Ferguson is happening --
HARLOW: Kevin, quickly -- Kevin, quickly to you, you said you don't agree with Congressman John Lewis said. Then what do you attribute the rising up of the huge amount of people in Ferguson that we saw after the shooting? What do you attribute that to?
JACKSON: Look. We've been trained to have this political correct idea that we're supposed to rise up when something like this happens. The atrocity that it is, it isn't -- I would defy anybody to -- I would defy Marc to tell me who's the last kid that was killed in Chicago or killed in L.A. or killed in D.C. We don't know this. But when something like this happens we raise it
to a level that this should never be at, and it's unfortunate. But the thing that causes it, that Marc won't want to talk about, is in every one of those instances where they're talking about this kind of a problem, it's controlled by Democrats, it's controlled by people who've done nothing for blacks except marginalize us. And if you want to do the connective tissue, look at liberalism. Look at that as your -- as the thing that's driving point.
HILL: That's just empirically untrue. Black people are executed more than other people as well. And you go to Texas, black people are executed last time I check Texas is Republican. It's not just Democrats and Republicans. It's about a systemic issue that we need --
JACKSON: Another anecdotal discussion about Texas.
HILL: Anecdotal? Anecdotal? It's not anecdotal. It's empirical. There's evidence of how many people --
HARLOW: Marc -- gentlemen. Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: Gentlemen, thank you. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me. We have to leave it there. Appreciate your time.
Coming up next on CNN, do police too often use executive force? Watch Soledad O'Brien's report. That's next.
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