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Defense Secretary Hagel Stepping Down; Ferguson Debate About Police and Race Relations; Rape Allegations Against Cosby Grow

Aired November 24, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This morning, at 11:00 a.m., the White House - at the White House, joined by the president, Secretary Hagel will announce his resignation. So that's what we're just getting in now.

Just a couple of hours from now, we're going to be hearing from the president and from Secretary Hagel to make this announcement official. A successor will be named in short order, but they say that Secretary Hague will remain as Defense Secretary until his replacement is confirmed by the United States Senate.

And, Carol, I know you remember what we heard from Senator Ted Cruz from Texas. He said that in response to this the executive action on immigration, that the Senate should hold off on confirming new nominations. Now, certainly this -- we would not think that national security posts would be involved in this, but certainly there could be a big nomination fight ahead when it comes to figuring out who's going to be replacing Secretary Hagel.

Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And that is the immediate problem, right? Athena Jones, thanks so much.

I want to bring in Peter Bergen. He's our national security analyst.

From a security standpoint, because the Pentagon and the Defense Department are dealing with a lot of stuff, you know, they're trying to fight ISIS, they're trying to wipe out ISIS. Like, what happens now when a Defense Secretary steps down and a new Defense Secretary, we don't know who they are, I mean how does that effect national security, Peter?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST (via telephone): Well, I don't think it's going to make a substandard (ph) difference because clearly he's going to stay in office until somebody who can get through the nomination process. But I would anticipate that the Obama administration would be looking for somebody who has obviously a great deal of experience and can, you know, aid the nomination process.

And three people sprang to mind. One would be Ash Carter, the former Deputy Secretary of Defense, who recently stepped down, relatively recently. Another would be Michele Flournoy, who was, of course, has long been suggested as being perhaps the first female U.S. Secretary of Defense. She was undersecretary for policy under Obama, who's very well-liked and well-regarded.

Also another potential candidate, Senator Jack Reed, who is a long- time friend of Obamas and a former Army officer with a great deal of experience in the military who's well-liked in the Senate and would also presumably have a pretty smooth nomination process. So I think the key will be finding the right candidate and ensuring a smooth and relatively quick nomination process, Carol.

COSTELLO: General Hertling, I guess what I was trying to get at with Peter, evidently there's discord between the White House, the Pentagon, and the Joint Chiefs. So that discord isn't going to go away until Chuck Hagel maybe steps down and his successor is named, right?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST (via telephone): Well, there's going to be intention for whoever the new secretary is going to be because what you've got is the strategy of the United States government right now, in so many different areas. You -- we keep talking about ISIL. As I said before, we have a Russian expansion in Europe, in Ukraine and other places. We have the Ebola fight. We have a change in position or a change in strategy over the last two days in Afghanistan. And, of course, there's the potential for conflict in many, many other places around the world.

This is an issue, as General Dempsey said in his testimony a few weeks ago, there seems to be a strategy, ends, ways, means, disconnect, because as we're expanding our, the use of the military throughout the world, we, in fact, are continuing to see budget constraints. And now we have a changing of the guard when the new Congress comes in with new members of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Senate Appropriations Committee, and all of those things have to be under the control of someone with a steady hand in the State Department, someone who has a feel for not only the world, but also the building and also the president's desires. And that's going to be tough for whoever comes in.

Peter's comments on the potential candidates, there -- all three of those are good ones. I'm sure there are going to be many more. But whoever is the person that will be selected to replace Mr. Hagel is going to have -- is going to have a tough job in front of them.

COSTELLO: Absolutely. General Spider Marks is with us too, CNN military analyst.

So, General Marks, for the men and women on the front lines, how are they feeling about this news that Chuck Hagel is stepping down and there is a certain amount of discord between departments?

LT. GEN. SPIDER MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST (via telephone): I would say kind of bluntly that the soldiers and the service members on the front lines are still going to do what they have to do in order to accomplish their daily tasks. So in a rather cynical way, you can say to them, very specifically, it really doesn't matter. You stay about your business. You stay focused on your tasks.

I mean the Pentagon is not dissimilar or Las Vegas. What happens in the Pentagon often just stays in the Pentagon. And it doesn't reach as effectively as you would prefer the edges of this organization. So from my perspective, the fact that the Secretary of Defense is stepping down for whatever reasons, the larger challenge is, has been stated by Peter and Mark, the disconnect that exists obviously within the administration in terms of what it is they're trying to achieve and how they want to try to achieve it. And we haven't seen clarity in those -- in the execution of those policies. And that's the real issue that I'm sure Secretary Hagel said, look, I've stated my opinion, I've said what I think needs to be done and I'm going to ask some hard questions. Obviously that got under the skin of some -- of several folks and so he'll be departing, which is unfortunate.

But we handle transitions. That's what the military can do. We can work our way through this. This is not a significant issue. It is for him certainly but the Department of Defense will be OK.

COSTELLO: I hope so. Thanks to all of our analysts and all our correspondents who contributed to this fascinating discussion.

Again, in case you're just joining, the Defense Secretary, Chuck Hagel, stepping down. The president expected to make a formal announcement in about an hour and a half. Of course if the president makes a live announcement, we'll carry it live right here on CNN.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

COSTELLO: And if you're just joining us again, that breaking news, the Defense Secretary, Chuck Hagel, is stepping down from his post at the request of President Obama. There's been some stress between the two men over policies in Syria and how the United States is waging the war on ISIS. We don't know exactly the reasons for Hagel's decision to step down. Of course, Jim Sciutto reported it was a mutual decision between Chuck Hagel and President Obama. As I said, we'll learn more from the president when he speaks 11:00 a.m. Eastern from the Rose Garden.

In other news this morning, the waiting drags on in Ferguson. The grand jury will meet again today to review whether there is enough evidence to send Officer Darren Wilson to trial. And, as you well know, tensions are high. Calls for peaceful protests, loud. They're even coming from President Obama, who told ABC News, situations like these are, quote, "solvable problems."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If we do a better job of training our law enforcement to be sensitive to the concerns of minority communities, then over time trust can be built, in part because minority communities typically are subject to more crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: But the former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani, puts things in starker terms. He says he worked hard as New York's mayor to have a police force that reflected the community and that the real problem is not being discussed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: The fact is, I find it very disappointing that you're not discussing the fact that 93 percent of blacks in America are killed by other blacks. We're talking about the exception here. We are talking about the significant exception, 93 percent of blacks are killed by other blacks. I would like to see --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me tell you -- let me respond to that.

GIULIANI: I would like to see the attention --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) respond.

GIULIANI: I'd like to see the attention paid to that that you are paying to this. And the solutions to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Giuliani says protesters should be outraged about black on black crime and not just police-involved shootings. A sentiment that sparked fireworks a little later in that same discussion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: Well, how about you reduce crime?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a debate --

GIULIANI: (INAUDIBLE) --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a debate --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After (INAUDIBLE), when I become mayor, I'll do that.

GIULIANI: And then we won't have the white --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait, let's not make this --

GIULIANI: The white police officers won't be there if you weren't killing each other 70 to 75 percent of the time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a defensive mechanism of white supremacy at work in your mind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait, all right, Mike, I've got to -- I'm going stop it there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: He said the white police officers wouldn't be there if black people weren't killing one another. Killing each other, I guess. With me now, Marc Lamont Hill, host of "Huff Post Live," and CNN political commentator. He is in Ferguson. And Paul Callan, CNN legal analyst, is here with me in New York.

Oh, there you are, Marc. I thought you disappeared, but he's back.

Marc, so I'm going to throw that to you, who's right, President Obama or Mayor Rudy Giuliani?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR (via telephone): That's an easy one this morning. You're throwing me softballs.

COSTELLO: I know.

HILL: I think the president is actually right on this one. And I don't always agree with the president.

(INAUDIBLE).

COSTELLO: Oh, we lost Marc. We're going to try to get him back. The technical gremlins are with us this morning. So I'll throw that difficult question to you. You heard what Mayor Giuliani said, white police officers wouldn't be in black neighborhoods as often if blacks weren't killing other blacks.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, this is like -- they used to say Social Security was the third rail of American politics. Politics never talked about it. This is the real third rail, talking about sensitive racial issues like this. And Giuliani was sort of, I would say, extraordinarily insensitive in the way he expressed himself. But what he was saying essentially is that, because there's a lot more crime committed in black neighborhoods, and, by the way, maybe that has nothing to do with race, but it has to do with poverty and other problems that have plagued the black community -- you have more police-citizen encounters and therefore you are going to have more killings that will occur there. And that's why our attention is focused there more often than not.

COSTELLO: But that doesn't mean that white police officers can't handle things more sensitively or in a way that will insight the community, isn't that part of their job?

CALLAN: Well, it is part of that job. But, you know, you get back to this thing and it's a tough concept to discuss, but I think back to the time when Jesse Jackson made a statement that I think he later apologized for that, that he is embarrassed that when he's walking down the street late at night and he hears footsteps behind him, he feels relieved when he turns and there are whites following him and not blacks.

Now, why would Jesse Jackson say that? Because even in the black community, there's a perception that you're more likely to be victimized in that situation because there's a greater crime rate in black communities. It's just the way ordinary human beings operate.

And, yes, we have to train the police to be more sensitive. And the thing they make -- and this is the thing that I think is very important. For instance, the dress. We always talk about the kids, you know, with no belt and the pants halfway down. Well, you know, white kids are dressing like that now too. And that used to arise out of prison culture. And when you see that, people worry. Well, get a life. You know, the fashions have changed and you can't stereotype somebody because they're dressed that way.

COSTELLO: Right.

CALLAN: And I think that's what we're talking about. Cops can't make presumptions about people because of the way that they're dressed or clearly because what have their race is.

COSTELLO: Well, Marc, you could argue that Mayor Giuliani is simply deflecting what happened in Ferguson and why it happened.

HILL (via telephone): Well, that's exactly right. And remember, the argument has never been, and it's a strawman, that somehow black people aren't outraged at what happens in Chicago or other places where there's violence. We're always outraged about that. I just -- I'm in Ferguson right now and I just met with a group of young people, the Lost Voices, who are fighting the police brutality, but they're also dealing with black on black crime. That's never been the issue.

The reason people are outraged in Ferguson is not because black people are being killed, it's because black people are being killed and they're being killed with impunity. People in Chicago -- when black people kill other black people, they get arrested, they get investigated, they get prosecuted. It's the impunity with which black people are being killed here that people are frustrated about.

And we can also walk and chew gum at the same time. We can be outraged at black-on-black crime. We can be outraged at 93 percent of black people killed by other black people, and that 90 percent of white people are killed by other white people, mind you. But also we can be outraged that police are doing this all around the country and deal with the systemic issue that goes into that. And I think that's what President Obama was actually talking about. And the way to deal with that is by dealing with community relations and with police, but it's also by dealing with structural issues -- education, housing, health care, and white supremacy.

COSTELLO: And you can see across the country, I think, that police departments are at least, I don't know, being careful with their language.

I'll give you an example of this. In Cleveland this weekend, police shot and killed a 12-year-old African American boy who was brandishing a toy gun that looked like a real gun. Well, the case is going right to a grand jury, and I mean right now. Paul, do you think that would have happened had it not been for Ferguson?

CALLAN: Well, you know, I think there's a lot of misinformation out there about grand juries and cases that go. Now, I'm a New York lawyer, a defense lawyer and former prosecutor. Every single police shooting case in New York goes to a grand jury, even if it's a clearly what they call a justifiable shoot. This obviously was, you know, not necessarily; it's got to be examined.

So that's the way it works in New York. They all go to grand juries and grand juries always make the decision. Now it's not that way every place.

COSTELLO: I'm saying the police spokesman came out and said, look -- he did not take a side. He said this is going to the grand jury and we're going investigate, period. I just wondered if the change in language --

CALLAN: I think this case -- a shooting in this fact pattern would have gone to grand jury any place.

COSTELLO: OK, well, let me get you another example.

CALLAN: OK, sorry.

COSTELLO: OK, so, Marc, same story in New York City. A police officer's gun went off in a dark hallway. An unarmed, innocent man was killed. This is how the district attorney in Brooklyn characterized it. He said, his name is Ken Thompson, he said, "The shooting was deeply troubling and warrants an immediate, fair and thorough investigation."

Add this to the mix, the New York City Police Commissioner, William Bratton, said this about the victim; he called the shooting "an unfortunate accident." Listen to what else he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BRATTON, NYC POLICE COMMISSIONER: Let me reinforce this point -- the deceased is a, based on our preliminary investigation, total innocent that this happened to be in that hallway as the officers were entering the adjacent hallway one landing up. Was not engaged in any criminal activity of any type.

(END VIDEO CLIIP)

COSTELLO: So, Marc, the commissioner immediately put responsibility and liability on the police department. Will that help keep emotions from flaring like in Ferguson?

HILL: Absolutely, because historically what has frustrated people is that the blue wall of silence is usually what emerges as soon as someone gets killed by a police officer. They assume that the police officer did nothing wrong even when the evidence is to the contrary. Investigations are often obscured or obfuscated. There's often a lot of double talk and sometimes flat-out lying that happens by law enforcement. Not every time, but in certain cases. And that's what outrages people.

Now we see police having a different language. And this is absolutely a testimony to the hard work that's being done by grassroots organizations, the hard work that's being done by media outlets to put a spotlight on this stuff. So people have to be accountable and our activism, our attention, our media spotlight, is what makes that happen. So I'm hoping we're turning a corner here.

COSTELLO: Marc Lamont Hill, Paul Callan, thanks to both of you. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The chorus is growing louder of women accusing entertainer Bill Cosby of sexual misconduct, but you'd never know it from the reaction he got Friday night during a performance in Florida.

(CHEERS & APPLAUSE)

COSTELLO: Cosby received a standing ovation at the beginning of his show. So far he has been mostly silent about the allegations, but he did say this to the newspaper "Florida Today".

Quote, "I know people are tired of me not saying anything, but a guy doesn't have to answer to innuendoes. People should fact check. People shouldn't have to go through that and shouldn't answer to innuendoes." End quote.

As you know, more than a dozen women have now come forward with much more than innuendo against Cosby. Many of their allegations are extremely disturbing and graphic. Kristina Ruehli says she was accosted by Cosby in 1965 when she was 22 years old and a secretary at a Hollywood talent agency. She explains to CNN's Alisyn Camerota why she decided to go public now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think that there's such a din now that's being created by these more than dozen women, yourself included, who've come forward that he must respond?

KRISTINA RUEHLI, CLAIMS COSBY ACCOSTED HER IN 1965: I think more will come forward. Whatever you follow here, it doesn't end with me.

CAMEROTA: Do you think it's time for Bill Cosby to come forward and say something?

RUEHLI: I do. I wish he had the courage. I wish he had the balls. Who would want 15 minutes of this kind of -- not fame, shame? So I'm here -- not that I think I'm this great courageous character, per se -- but to say to the others who have come forward, and who I hope will come forward, it's courageous. It takes courage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Susan Candiotti is covering this story for us. Good morning.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. When I started reporting on this last week, there were three to four

women. And now the number just since you last spoke is up to at least 16 accusers. 16 accusers. And among them is a Victoria Valentino. She is about to turn 72 years old. She's a nurse. But in late 1969 to early 1970, she was an actress and a Playboy bunny. Through a friend, she met Bill Cosby in hopes of perhaps boosting her career.

She says it was a low time in her life; her son had drowned. Valentino says she and a friend were treated to a spa then dinner with Cosby. She claims he gave them pills, a downer. And she describes the room spinning and they all went back to his office where Valentino alleges he raped her. Her friend was unconscious nearby.

Now, she told another friend, who confirms to CNN her account back then. But Valentino did not report it to authorities. Why? She says back in the late '60s, '70s, it was about love-ins and hippies and drugs and Kent State and anti-authority. You didn't go to the cops. You didn't go up against Bill Cosby, a TV star.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VICTORIA VALENTINO, COSBY ACCUSER: Do you put yourself through that humiliation? You've already been humiliated, degraded, demeaned. So you put yourself through that again? And then how are you going to prove it? He's the one with the money. He's the one with the fame. He's the one with the great reputation for being the good guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Now we've heard back from Mr. Cosby's lawyer about Valentino's specific claims, but in a general statement Friday night, he said this in part, "These brand-new claims about alleged decades- old events are becoming increasingly ridiculous and it is completely illogical that so many people would have said nothing, done nothing, and made no reports to law enforcement or asserted civil claims if they thought they had been assaulted over a span of so many years. When will it end? It is long past time for this media vilification of Mr. Cosby to stop."

But I tell you, Carol, we keep hearing from more accusers. And I know of at least three venues that have canceled his concerts. He still has some others coming up. I mean, where's it going? I don't know.

COSTELLO: I don't know. Susan Candiotti, many thanks. I appreciate it.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)