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Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel Stepping Down; UVA Students Protest, Face Media

Aired November 24, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, good morning, I'm Carol Costello. I want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world, and we begin with breaking news of a major shakeup in the Obama administration. Defense Secretary, Chuck Hagel, is stepping down. Hagel, the only Republican on the national security team, is expected to join the president next hour in making that official announcement. Hagel and the president have been discussing his departure over the last several weeks. Let's head to the Pentagon and Barbara Starr. And although the White House is saying it was a mutual decision, you say it's not?

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, good morning. The White House and officially here at the Pentagon the word is, it was a mutual decision between the president and Secretary Hagel for the secretary to go. But in reality, the political reality, several officials now tell us here at CNN is that Hagel basically was forced out, pushed out, whatever you want to call it. The secretary and the president had been talking over the last several weeks about what the president wanted to see in the final two years of his administration in national security. They had been talking about it and, you know, once you start talking about the future, it opens the door to all of these issues of stay or go.

There had been a lot of chatter about all of this, that the president wanted to make a change in personnel, that he wasn't happy with his national security team, and when you look at the three key players, you have Susan Rice, the national security advisor at the White House and Obama intimate, she's not going anywhere, Secretary of State John Kerry in the middle of Iran negotiations, very vocal, very high profile, he's not going anywhere. Secretary Hagel, perhaps publicly not always smooth and articulate. Very much an implementer of what the White House wanted so perhaps making himself a bit vulnerable on that point. There's no question about that. Very much a respectable secretary of defense, didn't do anything wrong, did what the White House wanted him to do. But at the end of the day the president wanted a change and Hagel was basically the last man left standing.

They are saying it's mutual. Nobody wants to sort of, you know, make him appear to be lesser than he was. He was very competent as the secretary of defense, many officials say he had lot of initiatives. He was carrying out the White House strategy on the fight against ISIS, but now this raises the big question. If Hagel goes - and, which he will -- and he was carrying out the president's war strategy what is the strategy now? Will it change? Is this now opening the door to some potential changes in the fight against ISIS? We do know that Secretary Hagel had written a memo to the White House saying he was very concerned that not enough attention was being paid to the Syria part of the equation. Hagel himself raising some very serious questions about the war strategy.

So, you know, this now becomes the big open question. When a new nominee goes through the confirmation process before the Republican Senate Arms Services Committee chaired by John McCain who very much wants to see a stronger military presence, what will happen? What will be the stated strategy, what will a new secretary of defense face and what will it mean for American forces on the ground in the Middle East? I think these are the big questions now as the secretary prepares to go. Carol.

COSTELLO: Very big questions. Barbara Starr, stay right there. I want to head to the White House now. Checking with Athena Jones. So, Athena, the president's foreign policy has been roundly criticized. Is that the reason that Chuck Hagel is being pushed out?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Well, certainly, the White House has been criticized for the response to ISIS, the response to the Ebola crisis, and so this move is being seen as a way to reassure critics of the president's foreign policy strategy. But of course, as Barbara mentioned, the folks are adamant saying that Hagel was not pushed out. Of course, you would expect that response from here. We know that no successor will be named at the announcement later this morning at 11:10 where Secretary Hagel is going to appear with the president here at the White House in the state dining room to officially resign. But we also know sources telling from a White House official is telling my colleague Jim Acosta here that on the short list of folks who could replace Secretary Hagel are Michele Flournoy who was the former undersecretary of defense, Senator Jack Reed, who is a Democrat from Rhode Island and a former officer with the Army's 82nd Airborne and also Ashton Carter who is a former deputy secretary of defense.

And so, we don't expect to get the announcement today on just who from that short list will be chosen, but we do expect to hear the official resignation. I should mention, Carol that Texas Senator Ted Cruz has indicated there could be some coming fights when it comes to nominations. He has said that the new Republican-led Senate should hold up any nominations, should block any nominations of officials that the administration puts forward in response to the president's move on executive action on immigration just last week. So a lot of fighting that we could see coming. Carol?

COSTELLO: All right. Athena Jones reporting live from the White House, stay right there. I also have Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona. Is he on the phone? He's live, OK. Hi, hi Colonel Francona, thanks for joining me. So, apparently there's this discord between the Pentagon and the Joint Chiefs and the White House. Chuck Hagel is out, what does that tell you?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, you know, Secretary Hagel has never really fit in at the Pentagon. He's had a lot of resistance from his top leadership there, especially among the general officers. And over the last couple of months we've seen this kind of distancing between him and the chairman of the joint chiefs, General Dempsey. General Dempsey has sort of taken the lead over there at the Pentagon. And I think it was just a matter of time before Secretary Hagel was either forced out or resigned on his own. So this doesn't really come as a surprise. The timing is a little interesting right after the election, but I think that the president needs a stronger voice at the Pentagon and he is probably looking for that.

There's a lot of problems going on right now, at National Defense, as everybody knows. Of course, we have got these - the talks with Iran that are probably going to go into an extension, we have got the ongoing for on ISIS, which really doesn't seem to have any real focus. So it was time for a shakeup at the Pentagon and Secretary Hagel's head was on the block.

COSTELLO: Well, he was quite critical of the Obama administration strategy, especially in Syria. Remember he wrote that memo to National Security Advisor Susan Rice sharply criticizing the White House strategy. There was this two-page memo it detailed concern about the overall serious strategy and called for a more defined plan for handing the regime of Syrian president Bashar al Assad. I could go on, but Hagel did push back. Wouldn't you want, you know, a member of your cabinet to do such things, colonel?

FRANCONA: That's his job. He's -- he and the chairman both are to provide that military advice to the president and give the president his options. Evidently, the president didn't like those options but on that one particular point the secretary was right. But I think he was reflecting the views of the military leadership of the Pentagon and going to the president. It was the generals who said "We have to address the Syria part of this and we're not doing that. You have to look at ISIS as one target, not a target in Iraq and a target in Syria," which is what the administration wanted to do at the beginning. So it looks like the president is going to put somebody in it who follows his thinking.

COSTELLO: Interesting. OK, I want to head out to Vienna and Nic Robertson and check in with him. So, word of this is slowly leaking out. Actually, it's already hit Vienna because Jim Sciutto reported about it in the last hour. But how will the generals on the ground, how will they take these news?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, of course, the fight against ISIS, which Chuck Hagel has been significant part and force in is made up of new - made up of several different nations, you have Britain and France both involved in airstrikes in the region as well, as well as the UAE, as well as the Saudis as well. And there has been a sense for these partners in the fight against ISIS that does need, particularly from the Middle Eastern partners, that there does need to be a refocusing. And certainly you've got key players here in Vienna like Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister who, after the talks on Iran, had a short meeting with Secretary Kerry. Lavrov just on Saturday in Moscow meeting with the Saudi foreign minister, they were talking mostly about the fight against ISIS in Syria. That was the prime content of their conversation. Both those men came here to Vienna, both of them meeting with

Secretary Kerry as well. So there is certainly an understanding here at least that the ISIS issue is a big issue that isn't going away. The tackling of it needs to be reframed. How that gets affected by Secretary Hagel's departure, obviously unclear. But the key allies in that fight, their part is unlikely to change in the short term, although they may now push for a sort of reframing of how it's all done.

COSTELLO: Interesting. OK. I want to go to Lieutenant Colonel Reese, military analyst, another one of our military analysts. Hi, colonel. A question for you, this definitely means a change in strategy. We don't know exactly what the change in strategy will be, but might it involve boots on the ground and more involvement in Syria for American troops?

LT. COL. JAMES REESE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Carol, good morning. You know, yes. The bottom line is this. I mean Rick Francona said it a couple of minutes ago. I think that Secretary Hagel has been trying to push the general officers, the joint chiefs, general - the CENTCOM commanders, General Austin's agenda, as he should have been as a secretary of defense to the civilian leadership and those are that we can't get locked into one way. We are looking at an asymmetric threat. And what we can't do here is have a micromanagement type leadership. We need an intent based environment that our commanders can work at and allow them to execute that intent. One of the issues that everyone keeps saying, we keep dancing around it, is the whole Assad issue in Syria. The Turks want him out, the Saudis want him out, everyone in the area wants him out and that becomes -- we have been talking about this on CNN for over two months now, it's the center of gravity of this whole issue. So unfortunately I think Senator Hagel, you know, the joint chiefs, Senator - General Dempsey has a great relationship, he's a great commander and I will tell you, when I think this is all broke out, you're going to see that Secretary Hagel just became the man on the chopping block for the administration and it is what it is.

COSTELLO: All right. Lieutenant Colonel Reese, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, Nic Robertson, Athena Jones and Barbara Starr, thanks to all of you. We have much more on Chuck Hagel stepping down from his post as Defense Secretary as the day goes on right here on CNN. I'll be back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Stunning breaking news to tell you about this morning. The Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel stepping down. The Obama administration saying it's a mutual decision but we hear that Chuck Hagel was forced out. We'll see what the president himself has to say. He's expected to officially make the announcement at 11:10 a.m. Eastern Time. Of course CNN will carry that live.

In other news this morning, student leaders at the University of Virginia are facing the media right now to address a rape scandal that's rocking their campus. All fraternities and sororities at the school have been suspended following an explosive report in "Rolling Stone" magazine. A student told the magazine she was gang raped by seven men at a frat house two years ago over a three-hour period. CNN's Joe Johns is in Charlottesville.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWD: Not one more.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: More protests over the weekend at the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house, the scene of an alleged gang rape of a first year student by seven men described in graphic detail in an article in "Rolling Stone" magazine. No one has been criminally charged in the incident which allegedly took place about two years ago. The frat house was recently vandalized with anonymous writings, including the words "UVA's Center for Rape Studies." In the continuing campus uproar, UVA's president took heat for her initial response that was called tepid by some, though she did call on local police to investigate. Then decisive action over the weekend including suspending activities of all UVA's fraternities for the rest of the year. She showed outrage in a written statement. "Rape is an abhorrent crime that has no place in the world, let alone on the campuses and grounds of our nation's colleges and universities." The school says last year 38 students went to the dean of students to talk about sexual assault allegations. Nine filed complaints. No UVA student has been expelled for sexual misconduct in the last decade. A friend of the accuser in the alleged gang rape telling CNN the attention to this issue is welcome news.

ARNIE FOREST, STUDENT: Absolutely. And for as vulnerable as she's probably feeling, I'm sure she's also feeling very liberated. And I know that all survivors here are feeling almost that same feeling of, yes, finally, this is happening and this is big.

JOHNS: It's not just a UVA problem. 88 colleges and universities, including Harvard and Ohio State are under investigation by the U.S. Department of Education for the way they handle sexual assault allegations. One disturbing question ...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: All right, that was Joe Johns reporting. I'm sorry about that. Before I get to you, Mr. Foubert, he is in a former assistant dean at UVA, he's now a professor at Oklahoma State. Let me ask you a question in just a second, but the students are addressing the media on the campus of UVA right now about the sexual assaults on campuses and they want to make it clear it's not just a UVA problem, it's a problem nationwide. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the amount of people that have reached out to us in the advocacy community who have not been involved before and have said "What can I do? How can I help? People who want to know how they can help in their daily lives and through other advocacy and activism outlets. How they can really get involved in this issue. So that's been something that's been very encouraging. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There has been a bit of backlash, we've even

seen it while we've been on campus, you know, people saying "They shouldn't be here" and there's been posts online saying "This is hyperbolic, we don't believe this story." What has the reaction been of the fraternities and people angry about this and do people believe it? When at first they did not, did you believe it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. First and foremost I was inspired and really empowered by the fraternity community and my personal response too. Just the admiration that was shown to these survivors who came forward with such a difficult story and to share it in such a public manner as to put this issue into the spotlight. One of the things that we talked about, this group behind me, because we've met quite frequently over the last year since we - since we first were put into leadership in our organizations, one of the things that we talked about is that a lot of the students are really doing great work behind this and care deeply across organizations behind this. One of the issues that we've had is galvanizing individual change. So we want a collective community change and how we get that is by empowering every individual to get behind this issue and think about how they themselves can -- like Ashley was saying, foster better environments for survivors. Be promoters of bystander intervention to prevent sexual violence from occurring.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the allegations in this case are, quite frankly, shocking. And if you believe them, you know, if this wasn't shocking enough to you to think maybe this isn't true, believe right away, can you talk to us about how the culture at these frats has gotten to the point where this is a possibility? This is something that you all seem to believe could actually happen at one of these parties? How has that happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think that, you know, when I first read "Rolling Stone," when I first heard about the article, it made me angry more than anything and it made me sad that this could happen in a community that we all value so highly. It was disorienting. But I think that what we're trying to do is harness this energy, harness this shock and this frustration into positive movement going forward, developing more sustainable and long-term actions. And I think Brian said it really, really well in his statement. This story will fade from the news cycle in one or two days but this story will not fade, this energy will not and cannot fade from UVA from the students, from the administration moving forward. I think it's imperative that we harness it and make positive steps to eliminating problem of rape in our university community.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: All right, the students at UVA expressing their concerns over this article in "Rolling Stone." With me, John Foubert, a former assistant dean at UVA. He's now a professor at Oklahoma State University. Welcome, sir.

JOHN FOUBERT, PROFESSOR, OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY: Thank you very much, Carol. Thank you for having me. COSTELLO: Thanks for being here, the article in "Rolling Stone" was

so chilling because the woman -- the article is about this woman named Jackie, she was a freshman at UVA, she had a date with an upper classman and a fraternity brother and it seemed so planned. The fraternity brother like brought her on this date, brought her to this fraternity party and then brought her up to a darkened room and she alleges seven men were in that darkened room and this person that she had the date with was directing the action, so to speak. It's just -- it was such a chilling story and it's hard to believe that sort of thing goes on at fraternity houses, at UVA.

FOUBERT: Well, it goes on in fraternity houses at UVA, but it also goes on at all the other 4,500 colleges throughout the United States. I think this particular case, though, is an egregious one and, frankly, I don't find it too surprising. But when we put all of the emphasis on one incident, or one perpetrator, Bill Cosby or whomever, it takes us away from the issue that, you know, five percent of women on college campuses every year experience rape. One in four college women have experienced rape at some point in their lifetime. So, this is isn't just a one campus issue, a one person issue. It's something that's national. And I'm actually pleased to hear so much coverage of the issue in general because that awareness can be a springboard hopefully to some research-based prevention.

COSTELLO: I hope so. So, the president at UVA suspended all fraternities. Will that make a difference?

FOUBERT: That - from my own personal perspective, that's really an insult to the survivors of sexual violence at UVA. What that essentially does if you think about this time of year that suspends their operations for the one week between Thanksgiving and finals. So it looks like a big move but in reality it says "Don't have parties for a week." I really find it insulting. I think there needs to be much more serious change on this issue and it doesn't come with just shutting down for a week and, oh, by the way, over the holidays when no one else is around.

COSTELLO: Also, the Charlottesville Police Department is supposedly investigating this alleged gang rape that was detailed in the "Rolling Stone" article. UVA is urging witnesses to come forward. Does UVA really think those witnesses will come forward? Nobody knows where they are right now.

FOUBERT: Well, I certainly don't know what UVA thinks and whether they think the witnesses will come forward. But I think certainly with so many different women who have shared their stories of sexual violence that have happened in the recent past or the far past, they may be much more likely to come forward because there's a big barrier out there to reporting it all and that is that they won't be believed or it won't make a difference. Well, it might this time. I can't say it will but we can certainly hope.

COSTELLO: One of the most disturbing revelations in my mind in that article, the victims' friends seemed clueless about what just happened to her. She's standing there in a bloody dress, she's very upset and "The Rolling Stone" is calling this woman "Jackie." One of Jackie's friends told her "She's going to be the girl who cried rape and we'll never be allowed into a frat party again." It's just, like, boggles the mind that that would be the response.

FOUBERT: Well, it boggles the mind when you're thinking logically about this and when you think that we live in a just world but unfortunately we don't and so those are common reactions of friends and that just points to why so many women and men who experience sexual violence don't report. And that really points to an opportunity for culture change and one of the things that we do with my nonprofit organization one in four is to apply research-based practices in order to prevent not only sexual violence from happening, but galvanizing communities to help encourage bystander intervention, better responses by friends after this has happened so we can work to solving this problem.

COSTELLO: John Foubert, thank you so much for your insight. Much appreciated.

FOUBERT: You're very welcome.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right. Back to the big breaking news this morning. The Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel stepping down. Our sources say he's being forced out by President Obama.