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Ferguson Commission Formed; Defense Secretary Hagel Steps Down; Interview with Rep. Peter King

Aired November 24, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Our sources say he's being forced out by President Obama. President Obama himself is going to talk about this 11:10 eastern time. Of course we'll carry that live. But let's talk a little bit about the decision that the Obama administration apparently made to force Chuck Hagel out of his cabinet position. Joining me now, Chris Dickie, the foreign editor from "The Daily Beast," and David Gergen, our political analyst. Welcome to both of you.

LT. COL. JAMES REESE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Thank you. Is that Colonel Reese, I thought it was going to be David Gergen. Colonel Reese, welcome. Welcome to you, too. Is David Gergen on the phone?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (via telephone): Yes, I'm here.

COSTELLO: David Gergen is on the phone. That's why I was a little confused. I want to start with you, Chris, because you're not so surprised by this.

CHRIS DICKIE, FOREIGN EDITOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": No, I don't think that Hagel was a very effective secretary of defense. I think he was brought in at a time when everybody thought the issues were going to be how to deal with sequestration, rearranging the Army with less money. Now we have wars all over the place that we have to deal with, small scale, large scale. We have a war on Ebola, war on ISIS. All these things going on, reentering the combat theater in Afghanistan. And I don't think Hagel was the man to lead at this point. I think, really, if you think about it, when Obama made that embarrassing remark about ISIS a few months ago, where he says we don't have a strategy, I think he was talking to Chuck Hagel and saying why don't we have a strategy?

COSTELLO: So, David Gergen, do you agree? Because of course most Americans don't really love the president's foreign policy at this moment.

GERGEN: I have a different perspective, and that is I am shocked but not surprised. I'm not surprised in this sense that there's been continuous friction between the Pentagon and this White House for a fairly long period of time now, especially in the war on ISIS and some of these recent crises.

There's a distinct feeling over at the Pentagon that they're being micromanaged by the White House, the NSC staff, that they're being deluged with requests for memos and one thing or another instead of being allowed to do their job and going on with it. At the same time, in the White House, there's a lack of trust in the top military brass with some exceptions. The president has felt that way since way back when he made his - - he decided to have a surge in Afghanistan. He felt he got boxed in by some of the generals and there's not good blood between the two.

What has shocked me was I thought they were going to hang in there and try to finish the term. I know that Hagel had been extremely frustrated, and I'm sure they've been frustrated with him for some of the reasons that Chris just laid out, but I really thought he was going to hang in there for the final two years. So I'm shocked he's leaving. I'm not surprised given the underlying circumstances.

COSTELLO: Lieutenant Colonel Reese is our CNN military analyst. So, Colonel Reese, how do you fix the problems that David Gergen just outlined?

Okay. I'll address that question to you, Chris Dickie. How do you fix these problems? Who can come in and take the reigns? And whoever comes in they're going to have a tough fight with confirmation, right?

DICKIE: Yes. The confirmation fight, which is going to be led on the Republican side by John McCain, the new head of the Arms Services Committee in the Senate, is going to be a really tough one no matter what. I think if President Obama had his druthers, he probably would name the first woman secretary of defense, Michele Flournoy, who is the number three at the Pentagon in the first Obama administration who is a strategic thinker, who is a policy planner, who is all of those things that are needed right now in terms of trying to figure out a strategy to address these multiple wars that we're suddenly involved, or revolved, in. I think she probably would be a very good choice, and a lot of people are pointing toward her and saying she will be the one who's named., but whether she can get confirmed is a whole other question.

COSTELLO: I was just going to ask you, is John McCain kind of hip to her, or - - ?

DICKIE: Well, you know, is John McCain, in fact, going try and pick the next secretary of defense? And knowing a little bit about John McCain, I think he probably will try to do that.

COSTELLO: Colonel Reese, do you have a name in mind who could possibly fix these problems between the White House and the joint chiefs and the Pentagon?

REESE: Well, you know, Carol, let me go out on a limb here a little bit. You know, in today's world with this asymmetric threat, my concern is the old guard in the political side stays inside Washington, and they don't have the foundational logic of what we're really fighting and trying to stabilize around the world. You know, and maybe this is the time we bring back a guy like General McChrystal, you know, who has done this and has been very successful, understands the political ramifications also. Even though he had the falling out with President Obama, he is a guy who is very well respected, understands the politics of it, and it might be time to look at it from a perspective like this. I completely understand the civilian side with the policies and everything else, but there's more than just policies have to be with this, and we need someone who can bridge the gap across all of the spectrum of these issues that are out there. And a guy like McChrystal might be the guy.

COSTELLO: Okay, that's interesting, David Gergen, because as you know, General McChrystal criticized the president and it ended up in a "Rolling Stone" article, right? President Obama essentially fired him. Chuck Hagel, on the other hand, has pushed back at the president. He's criticized the president's strategy in Syria. So, is the president likely to hire back a guy who also criticizes him?

GERGEN: Listen, I think that the -- in addition to Michele Flournoy, as Chris I think partly brought up her name as one of the strong candidates, I also think that another strong - - Another strong candidate is Ashton Carter, Ash Carter, who was the deputy secretary of defense and he retired from that job or left that job, and he's been under pressure to come back in the administration somewhere. The national security has said most so far, but this time if it's a secretary (inaudible), he might do it. And he's very strong.

What I don't know, and I think this is the really hard question, does the White House want somebody as strong as Bob Gates, and somebody who can stand up to the various players there at the NSC and indeed in the oval office? That's really important for a president to have somebody who's willing to say i disagree, let's - - and work through.

COSTELLO: And, Chris, a final question to you. President Obama is going to come out and make the official announcement, oh, in just about 45 minutes to an hour. So, what - - because, you know, the country is worried about this. They want strong leadership because there are a lot of balls in the air when it comes to a defense of our country. So, what must the president say to calm things down?

DICKIE: Well, first of all, the president has to do something he hasn't been terribly good at recently. He has to show a lot of leadership himself. He has to be convincing when he talks to the American people that this is a step forward, and not a step further into confusion, which is where we've been. What the president wants to know is what he wants to know from the Pentagon, from the state department, from the CIA is where are we going? He has a general idea, he doesn't want to occupy any more countries. He doesn't want to get involved in the kinds of wars we were involved in in the last decade, but he doesn't really know how to pursue those policies and move them forward.

He's looking for somebody who can tell him. I am not sure that Ash Carter can do that. Maybe Michele Flournoy can do that. Maybe there's somebody else floating around. If we're going to talk about bringing back McChrystal, maybe we should bring back David Petraeus.

(LAUGHTER) DICKIE: But I think, in fact, that's what we need right now is a strong sense of the president's own leadership, and we'll see in 45 minutes whether we get that.

COSTELLO: David, David, you were going to say something.

GERGEN: Yes, look, the president is commander-in-chief. Strategy is often determined at the White House level. It's up to the Pentagon to carry out the strategy of the president, not for - - they're not supposed to be over there dreaming up all the strategy. They can give him some options, but it's openly the president. And that is a job of the NSC is to help to build strategy. Ever since Henry Kissinger was there, we've had presidents try to get national security advisors who were strategic in their thinking. I think the president needs to look at his own house as well as the Pentagon.

COSTELLO: All right, we're going to discuss this a lot on CNN all throughout the day. Chris Dickie, David Gergen and Colonel Reese, thanks to all of you for your insight. I appreciate it.

Moving on now, he is the police officer at the center over the -- actually, I have to take a break because we have to get the money in, but I'll come back and talk about Ferguson next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: He is the police officer at the center of the controversial shooting in Ferguson, Missouri, and in the 100 plus days since Wilson's deadly encounter with Michael Brown, he has largely been out of sight. But this weekend we got word that major news outlets, including CNN, are hoping Officer Wilson will come out of hiding and share his view of what happened with the public. That story brought to you first by CNN senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some high- profile news anchors have met Wilson. They've talked with him one on one in secret locations entirely off the record, all in the hopes of landing his very first television interview. Now, because it was off the record, those anchors can't talk about the meetings, and their networks can't really even confirm that the meetings happened.

STELTER (on camera): But here are the anchor names that I know according to my sources, with the caveat that others may have also met with Wilson. NBC's Matt Lauer has met with him, so has ABC's George Stephanopoulos, CBS' Scott Pelley, and both the prime time anchors here at CNN, Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COSTELLO: Interesting, right? Joining me now from Ferguson, Daniel Isom, director of the Missouri department of public safety, and Van Jones, CNN political commentator. Welcome, gentlemen.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Glad to be here. COSTELLO: Glad you're here with me. Van, first to you, both Anderson

and Don acknowledged their outreach to Darren Wilson, saying it's just standard journalistic procedure, and it pretty much is. Anderson says Wilson has declined his request, but we heard from Mike Brown's family and attorneys numerous times. Why is this sparking such a backlash?

JONES: Well, I just think that because he's such a controversial figure, he has not been heard from, people want to see him. Hey, let's not forget, you know, Anderson Cooper was here, Don Lemon was here the last time this was a big news issue. They were sweating through their shirts. Now we're standing out here, it's freezing cold. You have literally 100 days, the seasons have reversed, and we still haven't heard from the officer. We still don't have an answer from the grand jury. So people are just generally frustrated and people want answers from this officer, they haven't heard from him, so that's why you see some of this backlash.

COSTELLO: Dan, you're part of the Ferguson commission. I just wondered, is that talked about? Like how Officer Wilson is going to - I mean, at some point he's going to have to show his face, right?

DANIEL ISOM, DIRECTOR, MISSOURI DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Well, the Ferguson commission is really concerned with much broader issues. We're taking this incident that happened in Ferguson and looking at the entire area to see how we can make improvements, not only in law enforcement, but in economic conditions and education. And so the Ferguson commission will look at the entire landscape of this community.

COSTELLO: But in your mind, Daniel, could officer-Oh, go ahead, Van, I'm sorry.

JONES: Sure. Listen, I was here before; I'm here again. You hear people on both sides of this controversy -- they're just tired. The level of anxiety, the level of tension. You drive around the town -- this should be the big shopping season. You don't see cars. You see buildings boarded up. People are very, very frustrated.

And I think because you have some people who want to be actually defending the officer, they haven't heard from him, either, there's a sense of what is going on? And I think as you go day after day after day and people don't have answers, that's where the frustration comes from.

And I think one of the great things about the Ferguson Commission is at least now people are talking, as you said, about some of the bigger issues, some of the deeper issues. But until this officer comes forward and at least says his side of the story, until the grand jury finally says yes or no on the indictment, I think you're going to have a continued level of frustration not just here but really around the world.

COSTELLO: And, Daniel, don't you think the people of Ferguson need to hear from Officer Wilson, whatever the decision is from the grand jury? JONES: Yes, I think so. And I also think those of us who are in this

business of public life and in this business of news, we understand a lot of times you do have those pre-interviews, you have those outreaches, people trying to jockey for who's going to get that first interview. For us, business as usual.

I think for other people, it adds to the sense of is there a conspiracy? What's going on behind the scenes? Is he manipulating the process? You have a lot of just anxiety, I think, that in the lack of having someone come forward, maybe apologize to the family, give their side, say something -- then it winds up being a situation where anyone who has had access is somehow suspicious to a lot of people. Not fair to the journalists that are just doing their jobs, but that's reality.

COSTELLO: Daniel, do you agree with Van?

ISOM: Well, everyone here in St. Louis is waiting for the decision to come out. We're hoping that the grand jury is doing their due diligence, they're reviewing all the information that's necessary. But it is a process and I know people are anxious and they're hoping that they get more information, but we have to let the process play out.

There is the possibility that there could be an indictment, and if that's the case, then there will be another process that goes forward. And so the officer will have his day in court and so you would suspect that he would not give any statements with the possibility of a court case.

COSTELLO: Daniel Isom and Van Jones, thanks so much, I appreciate it. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

COSTELLO: I'm Carol Costello. I'd like to welcome our viewers from around the world. More now on our breaking news of a major shakeup in the administration. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel is stepping down. Hagel, the only Republican on the national security team, is expected to join the president next hour in making that official announcement. Hagel and the president have apparently been discussing his departure over the last several weeks.

Actually, we have Representative Peter King on the line right now, the Republican from New York joining us. Welcome, sir.

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Carol, thank you very much.

COSTELLO: Thank you for being here. First, your reaction to the departure of Chuck Hagel.

KING: I'm not entirely surprised. It was becoming obvious over the last I'd say four to six weeks that there were differences between Secretary Hagel and the president regarding the use of ground troops, regarding what our policy should be against ISIS. And I was struck by the Defense Secretary speaking publicly more at odds with the Commander-in-Chief than you would expect.

So, to me, again, it was not earth shattering, but it was pretty significant. You generally don't see that kind of a split of opinion. And Secretary Hagel seems to me that he does not believe that the current policy is working or is going to work, and he -- and that I think is part of it.

Also, the fact that Secretary Hagel is not pleased with the sequestration that's going on. So with all of it I just think that probably it was decided by the president and by Secretary Hagel that it was better for him to leave.

I thought he did a better job than a lot of Republicans thought he was going to do. I'm saying that, again, from a Republican perspective. I think as Secretary of Defense, Secretary Hagel, while I don't agree with a lot of the Obama administration policies, I do believe that Secretary Hagel tried to make them as effective as possible. And I give him credit for that. And obviously he had a (INAUDIBLE) record in Vietnam.

COSTELLO: What specifically does Hagel's departure say about the president's foreign policy?

KING: I think it shows that the policy is confused, that they're still trying to find what the policy is. For instance, when President Bush removed Secretary Rumsfeld, he had a -- he was going toward a surge. He was going toward a change in policy, and also there had been a failure of confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld. Fair or not, that was reality after three and a half years of the war in Iraq.

So President Bush is bringing in a new Secretary of Defense, Bob Gates, with a new policy, and was going to go forward from there. Right now, I don't know what the new policy is going to be because I'm not even sure what the current policy is under President Obama. So I think that's -- it's going to be interesting to see if he's going to bring someone in who is in the wing, if you will, of the Obama --

COSTELLO: Who should he bring in, Congressman King? Who should he bring in?

KING: You know, I'd actually mentioned on your show before about General McChrystal. That would be, to me, a real act of statesmanship by the president. Whatever differences there were between President Obama and Senator McChrystal several years, back in 2010 I guess it was, the fact is that General McChrystal was probably the most effective on-the-ground commander that we had in Iraq and in Afghanistan and he does have confidence from the military. And I think it would also show that the president is willing to step out, that he's not going to be bound by past grievances.

COSTELLO: And I want to touch on the nomination process because nobody thinks that's going to be easy. In your mind, will there be cooperation?

Representative King, are you still there? Oh, I think I lost him.

You know, the technical gremlins are with me today so I'm going to bring in Wolf Blitzer right now. Wolf, you heard what Peter King had to say. General McChrystal? Do you really think it's possible after General McChrystal was essentially fired by the president after the article came out in "Rolling Stone"?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": I would be surprised if it were General McChrystal. I think there will be serious confirmation hearings in the new Senat,e and by all accounts John mccain is going to be the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which will have to approve the nominee, whoever the nominee is. And there are a whole bunch of names already being floated out there.

So General McChrystal would be a huge, huge surprise given some of the history. But Ashton Carter, a former Deputy Secretary, number two. Secretary of Defense Michele Flournoy, an undersecretary of Defense, number three over there. Even Senator Jack Reed, the Democratic senator from Rhode Island.

Those names have been out there over the past hour or so since we got word that Hagel was being pushed out. So it's going to be -- it will be a serious confirmation process and I suspect the new chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, if, in fact, it is John McCain when the Republicans are in the majority, they'll do a -- obviously do a very serious job in making sure that that confirmation process goes smoothly.

COSTELLO: CNN political analyst -- actually, do we have Jim Acosta? He's at the White House, right?

Let's go to Jim Acosta at the White House. What might the president say, Jim?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, no doubt about it, President Obama has a lot of respect for Chuck Hagel. I think that you'll hear some glowing praise from the president for the outgoing Defense Secretary. But make no mistake, there are people inside the White House who were uncomfortable with Chuck Hagel ever since he was confirmed.

You recall he had a rocky confirmation up on Capitol Hill. That did not sit well with various officials inside the White House. And Chuck Hagel, from time to time, had a gift for gaffe in the view of some people inside this White House. You'll recall, over the summer, when the Defense Secretary said that ISIS was way beyond anything we've ever seen before. That was in sharp contrast with President Obama, who had described ISIS and other like terrorist groups in the Middle East, as being sort of the JV team of al Qaeda. So he wasn't always on the same page rhetorically as this administration rhetorically as this administration.

But the president does like Chuck Hagel; he has a lot of respect for him, and I think we'll hear a lot about that coming up. We can tell you, Carol, that we do expect the president to recommend a

new Secretary of Defense in short order, in the words of one senior administration official. And as Wolf just mentioned, there are a few names already on the list: the former Undersecretary of Policy of the Defense Department, Michele Flournoy; the former Defense Deputy Secretary Ashton Carter; and Jack Reed, although a spokesman for Senator Reed has just told CNN in the last several minutes that he wants to stay in the Senate. He does not want this job. And so that may narrow things down a bit. And we may be hearing something before the end of the week potentially. If they're saying short order, I would imagine that might be coming soon.

But Carol, was Chuck Hagel forced out? You know, our Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, she's hearing that. And it's interesting the way the White House is casting this. They're saying this is a mutually agreeable decision, but I talked to one official who said that the president and Defense Secretary arrived at this decision together. We've seen other Cabinet members in the past, Carol, who have tried to step down, reportedly like Kathleen Sebelius, like Eric Holder, and the president said no, no, no. Stay. I want you to stay on. That appears to have not been the case with Chuck Hagel. Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Jim Acosta reporting live from the White House.

I want our analysts and reporters to stick around because I have to say good-bye. We'll have much more coverage on this in the next hour on NEWSROOM.

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)