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Ferguson Grand Jury Decision Expected; Obama Urges Calm in Ferguson

Aired November 24, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARK O'MARA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY & CNN LEGAL ANALYST: On the other hand, if they tell him, we don't need to see you or nothing is going to happen, or don't get a call to bring him in, then certainly, from that, we can garner there was a no true bill.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Danny Cevallos, it has been said that this grand jury, that the way this grand jury took place or the way Bob McCulloch handled it, the convening of this grand jury, has been unusual. Now Jeffrey Toobin said really this has been a quick process, but many think it's been quite a lengthy process and an unusual process, and I know that our Sunny Hostin is one of them. Do you agree with that?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY & CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Certainly longer than many grand jury processes. But they can vary in length. The important thing is that what added time on to this process was that the prosecution appeared to err on the side of providing all of the information a jury could possibly look at. Remember, the rules of evidence are very relaxed in grand jury proceedings.

And commentators thought, look, if they wanted an indictment, the way they typically will do it, prosecutors, is put on just enough evidence to get over that burden of probable cause and no more, so as not to show their hand. So in a way people, critics have said that by showing all this evidence to the grand jury, the prosecution can then say it was not us that chose not to indict, it was this grand jury, and we gave them all the information we could.

But as a post-script, for people that demanded a grand jury be transparent, understand that a grand jury is designed to be the opposite of transparent, for a number of good public policy reasons. But the idea behind grand jury proceedings is and always will be secrecy. If you're looking for answers, a grand jury is not the place.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Don, Don, can I just add one thing there?

LEMON: Yeah. Absolutely. Go ahead, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: I didn't say that I thought this process was short. I thought the deliberations were short. The actual investigation since August has gone on for months and is very unusual, very long, and looks, to many people, and I certainly include myself among it, that it really looked like the prosecutor, Mr. McCulloch, was sort of passing the buck, was looking for cover from the grand jury rather than trying to bring a case, which is certainly an unusual setting for a prosecutor. The only thing in this process that's been quick has been the actual deliberations by the grand jury. Two days, given a many months-long investigation, is not, in my opinion, a very long deliberation.

CEVALLOS: Jeffrey, but also remember we talked about the grand jury started to ask questions and they wanted more evidence and they brought in another expert witness when, you know, as Mark Geragos was saying, usually, in his estimation, grand jurors or grand juries are usually the handmaiden of the prosecution, or the prosecutor. But if they are starting to ask questions and develop their own mind and want to hear other things that may not be so. This may be a grand jury that's going to make up their own mind regardless of what Bob McCulloch may want or what the prosecutor may want.

TOOBIN: That's true. It is possible that this could be an aggressive grand jury. I think one thing people who are not familiar with the legal system don't know is how grand juries work. Everybody seen on TV millions of times trials with a judge, prosecutor, a defense lawyer and jury. That's not how grand juries work. Grand juries are more like a classroom where there's a prosecutor, there's a witness, and the grand jurors sit classroom style, and depending on the custom, they can just raise their hand and ask questions. They can write notes to the prosecutor and say, why don't you ask about this. I mean, it is a process that allows grand jurors to do some of their own questioning and even investigating. And that sometimes gives prosecutors -- that gives grand jurors a much bigger role than the passive role we usually associate with jurors.

LEMON: But also we thought that there was -- the judge that's overseeing the case, because everybody thinks in a grand jury process, there's not a judge. I don't know how active the judge is. In a normal jury case, the judge is very active.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But in a grand jury case, is that necessarily so?

TOOBIN: No, not at all. In fact, the judge who is overseeing the grand jury is not even present in the grand jury room. The person in charge of the grand jury is the prosecutor. The judge only comes in if there's some sort of legal dispute, very, very rarely. This is a -- this is a process, grand juries, run by prosecutors.

LEMON: Yeah.

If we can get -- there's a full screen of the make up of the jury, the racial make up of the jury. And you guys have said they need two- thirds. I think they need nine out of the 12 to come to some sort of consensus about the -- three-quarters. So they need nine out of 12. Nine white, three black.

Mark, you dealt with the Zimmerman case, the Zimmerman trial. What should we think? What should we make of this? O'MARA: Well, you know, there's no question that race is one of the

biggest issues in this case, from day one, and it's going to be a consideration that the grand jury has to look at. I'm certainly hopeful the grand jurors are looking at it in a way that doesn't consider the issue of race in determining whether or not the crime existed or that there was a justifiable use of deadly force. But in our justice system, there are these subtleties with race that happen in the criminal justice system and I know it will be spoken about and openly addressed in the grand jury process.

LEMON: Yeah. OK. Stand by, everyone.

I want to get to Sara Sidner. Sara is outside of the Ferguson Police Department and she has been speaking to people there, residents, about what's going on and how they feel about this process.

Sara, take it away.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look, you know, I've been out here now for two months. On a daily basis, we come by here this area. This is where the protesters are every day. And sometimes it's one or two people. Sometimes there are dozens of people. We've been here when there are a couple hundred people right across the street from the police department.

I can tell you that on most days it's a small group out here during the day and most of the folks that are here are from either Ferguson or some of the surrounding cities that are very close, a five-minute drive away.

I want to talk a little bit from Rick Canamore (ph). He is from Normandy, the district where Michael Brown ended up going high school, and he's out here and got his sign.

Sir, why do you come out on a regular basis out here to stand out in the elements, out in front of the police department?

RICK CANAMORE (ph), PROTESTER: Well I come out here, my main reason, we want justice. Not only for Mike Brown's family but we want to make a statement for all the citizens around this area because we have witnessed injustice that we go through day in and day out with the police department, the profiling, the harassment and we just want to speak out and protest because we want our voices to be heard.

SIDNER: Let me ask you about the other side of the coin where people are saying well the justice system is there, there's a grand jury looking at all this, they are looking at all the evidence and can we just let the process happen and let them decide what justice is?

CANAMORE (ph): Well, we have seen and we've heard from the witnesses about Mike Brown, his hands were up in the air, and to put that many bullets in that young man, to let him lie in the street for that long, you know, that's not justice. Where is the justice in all that? You know, he laid in the street for four and a half hours. His mother was there. They wouldn't let his mother go near him. What more could she do? He was already dead. All she wanted to do was hold her child. Where's the justice. Why did it take to long? If Mike Brown shot Darren Wilson, would we have been waiting this long?

SIDNER: Do you feel this has changed from a case of people being angry to what happened here in Ferguson to something much bigger, to a movement as far as African-American males, in particular, are treated by police. I hear that a lot from folks out here.

CANAMORE (ph): As an African-American male, yes, I do believe so. We see it day in and day out. Not just Ferguson. It's all the municipalities that we see the same thing, day in and day out, of being harassed, being pulled over. We see the same thing every month in the municipalities surrounding Ferguson. You go to the court on the first of the month and you see African-American men and women lined up on the street, you know, and some of us, you know, we wound up paying, you know, $300 to $400. We're not middle class. We're not middle class people. We're poor working people living from paycheck to paycheck.

SIDNER: Let me ask you about that because, from the police side, they say if you're breaking the law, ran a stop sign, did something that got us to pull you over, we're just doing our jobs. What do you say that to them.

CANAMORE (ph): They may be just doing their jobs but a lot of things we see that take place in our communities, when we go out into the richer neighborhoods we don't see the same thing.

SIDNER: You feel like you've been treated differently.

CANAMORE (ph): Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Of course, we do.

SIDNER: What are your concerns? You live close to Ferguson. You've been out here for a while. What is your concern when we find out the decision?

CANAMORE (ph): We may be wrong but, for most of us, peaceful protesters that are here, we've seen the justice system work and we don't have much faith in it. We don't believe he'll be indicted.

SIDNER: If he is indicted, do you think all this will stop and people will go away?

CANAMORE (ph): No. It cannot stop because this is just the first step. He needs to be brought to trial and he need to be held accountable for murdering Mike Brown.

SIDNER: What do you say to folks who say, hey, you're innocent until you're proven guilty and why can't everyone sit back and watch that process happen.

CANAMORE (ph): Because we've seen the justice system work before and we just don't have faith in it. Again, I'll say, if it had been the other way around, if Mike Brown had shot Darren Wilson, this would have been over long before now.

SIDNER: Thank you so much, sir, for talking to me. We appreciate your time. Hearing sentiments there. A lot of folks have the same sentiments.

We're waiting to see what happens and hearing of the decision from the grand jury -- Don?

LEMON: Yeah. Sara Sidner at the Ferguson Police Department. Sara, it's good to hear from the people that live here in Ferguson. Thank you for that.

We'll get back to Sara in a just a moment on CNN, as well as our legal analysts, and our justice reporter, Evan Perez, who broke the story.

I'm Don Lemon, reporting live from near Ferguson, Missouri. A grand jury decision to be announced soon. We'll carry it here on CNN. Don't go anywhere. Our breaking news right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: CNN is live in Clayton, Missouri, right in front of the county justice center where the grand jury is convening. And as we understand that grand jury has reached a decision and that decision could be announced later on this evening. We are hearing that there will be an announcement of some sort, whether or not they will say if the officer was indicted or not, we're still waiting to see that, but that will come live, and we'll carry it for you here on CNN.

We want to tell you what's been going on here on the ground. I want to talk to you about Michael Brown's family. About two weeks ago, CNN's Ashleigh Banfield spoke to Michael Brown's mother.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MOTHER OF MICHAEL BROWN: Once again, we just want peaceful protest and if that's what they are out there for, only positive things, pause, plan and prepare. We don't want anybody acting irrational or acting before thinking because it wouldn't be serving us any purpose or do us any good. We're trying to get a message across. And that's part of the reason why we're in the U.N.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Again, as we wait an announcement here, we're expecting that announcement will be a decision on an indictment. But again, we will see when that happens later on this evening.

I want to get to CNN's Stephanie Elam.

Stephanie, you heard from Michael Brown's mother and she's there asking for calm from the protesters. You've been out among the protesters and speaking to them in the last couple of days, last couple of hours. What are you hearing?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, when you talk to the protesters, Don, it's very clear that, no matter what the decision is, whatever happens to Officer Wilson, that they plan to be out here and have their voices heard. They said that they have been planning for this for weeks to be ready for when this day came, when the decision actually came here. What they are saying is, no matter what the decision is, they need to be out here demonstrating and protest because, what is important, they say, is that there's a change between the way law enforcement interacts with young black men. And they're saying it's not just problem in Missouri, it's a problem nationwide, and that they plan to be out here to have their voices heard.

On that issue of violence, keep in mind that, in the most recent weeks since the death of Mike Brown, it has gotten much calmer. There have not been very violent protests. People who have been unlawfully assembling, but not violent clashes. So when I talked to the protesters, their concern is something small escalates and becomes something big with police officers, and that's what they are wanting to avoid.

If you remember back in August, when we were here before, there was that water bottle incident, a water bottle thrown, and that led to a big clash. They are afraid of that happening again. Police say they won't overreact. They're going to let people have their chance to do what they want to do and march and protest and demonstrate but to try to avoid that violence. And that's what the goal really has been. And you hear from a lot of people saying that's the focus -- Don?

LEMON: Stephanie, it's not perfect. It's not a perfect world, not a perfect community, but there have been talks, communication with the protesters, with law enforcement to try to come to a consensus on what's allowed, what's not allowed. And as you said, it's been just mostly a handful of people who have been instigating this. By and large, the people of Ferguson deserve much more credit than many people are giving them that it has been fairly peaceful.

ELAM: It has been peaceful. I've been out there. I've been out there at night and during the day. You see a few people protesting. It's not violent. People may be blocking the street for a while in the evening. There were small arrests. No arrests last night. That's not the focus. The violence is not the focus. Being heard has been the focus. When you talk to residents who live in Ferguson, they are nervous about how things are going to do down because of what happened in August. At the same time, a few people, both black and white, do believe both sides love their town and want to get past this, and they are ready to move forward. And a huge part of that is finding out what this decision is today -- Don?

LEMON: Stephanie Elam, thank you very much.

We're waiting for a decision here in Clayton, Missouri which is not far from Ferguson, Missouri, of course, where Michael Brown was shot and killed and where there's been so much unrest since August 9th. We'll be here until that announcement is made and beyond that.

Again, we're expecting an announcement. We're expecting that announcement will be a decision on whether to indict that officer, Darren Wilson, or not. We'll carry it for you live.

We'll be back on the other side of the break with this breaking news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

LEMON: Hello, everyone. Don Lemon, here in Clayton, Missouri near Ferguson Missouri.

We're waiting for an announcement from the prosecutor. The grand jury has reached a decision and they will make an announcement this evening. We're expecting that announcement will be whether or not to indict the officer in this case, Darren Wilson.

I'm joined here by my colleagues. One of my colleagues on the scene is CNN's justice reporter, Evan Perez.

Evan, we have been here following this case. You got the information regarding the announcement. As we have been saying, we're expecting the announcement will be an indictment or a no true bill non- indictment.

PEREZ: Right. Exactly. We know officials are getting ready. We know some officials who were out of town are coming back in, making sure that now they can put in place the plan that they were preparing for when this decision was made. You know, they know there will be a public reaction to this. Don, you and I were talking about that, despite the pictures that people saw back in August of some of the unrest, some of the protests, really, it's not representative of the vast majority of what we see here. I mean we're talking about a relatively small area. Even downtown Ferguson itself, which is just like half a mile away from the Canfield Apartments, even that feels like a world away.

Here in Clayton, Missouri, which is down the road from Ferguson, you can see, you know, some businesses have boarded up. You can tell people are getting ready for the same thing because they are very concerned.

LEMON: Some of the businesses as we're standing here aren't open today because they don't know what will happen and they don't want to take the chance. It's unfortunate. As we're getting close to the holidays this is when people make a lot of their money, shop keepers, business owners make a lot of their revenue.

PEREZ: I'm told, from some of the conversations that we've had, that some of the merchants in town met with state officials and voiced that concern. A lot of them, Don, already have their inventory for, you know, Black Friday, for the day after Thanksgiving, which is one of the biggest weekends of shopping weekends in America. So they were, you know, very concerned that there's looting and, obviously, also if they have big protests that affect how people can get about and maybe do their shopping.

LEMON: The reason I'm looking here is because what we're seeing is reflected on the front of the local newspaper here today, and it says that everyone -- basically the sentiment is that everyone here is apprehensive, living among apprehension. As you can see, the stores are boarded up in the areas. Then you'll see, again, it says, "An undercurrent of unease spread as life goes on." That's at that really good way of putting it rather than the streets of Ferguson are on fire, everyone is on edge, on pins and needles. It's not quite that but there is a feeling of, "We don't know what's going to happen."

PEREZ: They don't know what's going to happen.

LEMON: Yet, as a resident, the person that lives here, told Sara Sidner, we want to get this over with. We want it to be better and we want to move on with our lives. This has gone on for a long time.

PEREZ: Right. We know that the economy of the region is already getting affected. You know that there are big meetings being cancelled. People who are afraid to come to town because they don't know what to expect. And that's unfortunate because, you know, in some ways -- you know, I met with Michael Brown Sr., earlier in the week, when he was shooting a public service announcement, trying to urge public calm, and one of the things he was very concerned about is the idea that this has ceased being about his son, and it stopped being about Michael Brown.

LEMON: It's becoming about agendas, people's personal agendas.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREZ: It's people coming into town with their own agenda and are trying to get --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Also, I saw some breaking news that we haven't reported here on CNN that I got from one of the sources close to Officer Darren Wilson, is that Darren Wilson and his fiancee married a week ago Friday. They got married. And she is an officer who also works for the Ferguson Police Department. So, Officer Darren Wilson has not been seen in public, has not been heard from. We heard from a couple of friends and associates but haven't heard from the officer. Again, now we're learning they filed for the marriage license back on October 24th, and then, a week ago Friday -- I believe it was the 14th -- that they did get married. And she's an officer with the department as well.

I want to go now, Evan, to our colleague, Donna Brazile, in Washington.

Donna, we heard the president, as well urge, calm, saying listen everyone has a right to protest, that is your right, but he wants to urge calm. What do you think the president should be doing as we wait for this announcement?

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there's no question that the president has designated Attorney General Eric Holder to be the one that's in touch with, not only state and local officials, the police department and others, they have been providing assistance, they have been providing training, they have been providing resources. Of course, Eric Holder has been a steady hand in making sure all the parties are communicating so that people and the public know that the Justice Department is also monitoring this situation. So the president has designated not just Eric Holder, Valerie Jarrett, and I'm sure they are in touch with Governor Nixon. The president talked to him a few weeks ago. We'll learn more once this announcement is made.

LEMON: Donna, I probably wasn't as articulate as I could have been when I spoke with my panel regarding the racial makeup of the grand jury. Race has been the overriding factor in this case at least in the mind of the public. And seven are men, five are women, as you see, three black, nine white. And they need nine really to come to a consensus about indictment. My question is, as we know in this country, many times, African-Americans and whites see race differently in this country, and I find I want interesting that the racial make up of this grand jury may, in some way, be a deciding factor.

BRAZILE: Well, I hope it's not. I hope what's a deciding factor is the fairness that they've looked at all of the evidence and come to the right conclusion based on the evidence. I've learned that much from listening to Jeffrey Toobin.

With that said, African-Americans and whites share many of the same values and the same beliefs in terms of what it means to liver in a society like ours where we want to do the right thing. We want the best for our children. African-Americans have a unique experience, however, with say the police department, the Justice Department, and in many ways, we've expressed that and throughout the long months since Michael Brown was murdered. We talked about, you know, what it takes in this society to have accountability, transparency, but also sensitivity training of these police departments. So I'm hoping that this episode will soon bring us to a different level of conversation, not only about race relations but really how we work with the police department. You know, all policemen are not bad. All police women are not bad.