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Ferguson Grand Jury Reaches Decision

Aired November 24, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: This episode will soon bring us to a different level of conversation, not only about race relations, but really how we work with the police department.

All policemen are not bad. All policewomen are not bad. I have several relatives who served in the police department and currently serve in the police department.

(CROSSTALK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: The majority are good people.

BRAZILE: Absolutely, and also the protesters. Not all the protesters are out there to destroy their community or riot, as some would have us believe.

But this has been a very painful chapter, again, another episode where we're talking about, you know, race relations. We're talking about police brutality. We're talking about the excessive use of force, militarized in our community.

But we should also talk about what we can do as a community, as a country to really bring about reconciliation and some level of trust, and I think going back to Eric Holder --

LEMON: Donna?

BRAZILE: Go ahead. I'm sorry

LEMON: Yes, Donna, I have got to break in here. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Well said, Donna, but I have got to break in here.

We're at the top of the hour. I have some breaking news here.

Everyone, thanks for joining us. I'm Don Lemon near Ferguson, Missouri. You're watching CNN's special coverage. The grand jury here has reached a decision, the most controversial case in this country, the killing of Michael Brown.

And we know soon -- we will know soon whether his death on August 9 will officially be labeled a crime. U.S. and local law enforcement officials say an announcement is expected later today. And, as you know, the grand jury of five women, seven men has been deliberating on whether white officer Darren Wilson should be charged for shooting Michael Brown, a black teenager who was unarmed. The nine white and three black grand jurors have had the ability to

see the coverage surrounding this case. Nine of the 12 must agree in order to indict Wilson.

And we have got a panel of legal minds to talk about this.

But first I want to get to CNN's justice reporter, Evan Perez. He joins me now and to talk about the decision and when that will happen.

And before I get to you, Evan, I just want to say this. According to the Michael Brown family attorneys, they have official notice. They said a verdict has been reached again and they have official notice and that's according to the Brown family attorney, Mr. Parks and also Mr. Crump.

So, there we go. The family has notice now.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: They have officially been notified and we know the grand jury has now been released. They have now been sent home. Their work is done.

And then the plans are in place now for -- we're told that there's going be a 4:00 notice to the media of what is to come. We don't know -- we don't expect actually at 4:00 p.m. that we will know what exactly that decision is, Don, but we will at least know officially they are planning the plan, that the plan now is in process for them to make this official notification.

Obviously, then, obviously the public reaction will begin.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes. And the public reaction, as everyone has been urging, we just heard from our Donna Brazile -- and I'm sorry I had to cut her off because I had to get to the top of the hour and get the breaking news in here.

But from the White House on down, everyone urging calm in this particular situation, the governor here urging calm. You were with Michael Brown's father as he was doing, shooting a public service announcement urging calm regardless what the announcement is, what the decision is.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREZ: Right. He was very emotional as he was doing that. He came in and he did a few takes. He was a little hyped up and he brought his three other little kids with him to do this announcement.

And his concern really, Don, was that, you know, it's no longer about his son. And he wants to make sure that while, you know, these protesters who are here do have a point that there is concern about police conduct, how police treats minorities, especially in these small towns, these small-town police departments here, there are more than 50 of them in this county alone. And so he wants to make people understand that that's a message he wants out there. However, he doesn't want people to cause violence and really take away

from and sully the image of his son.

LEMON: CNN justice reporter Evan Perez.

Evan will be here with me throughout the evening, throughout the day as we report this here.

Joining me now is Tory Russell. Tory is the co-founder of the Hands Up United.

Tory, thanks for joining us.

You know, we talked about the charges with Evan Perez. As we wait for the announcement, Tory, what is going on? What's going through your minds, through the minds of the community here in Ferguson and in the Saint Louis area?

TORY RUSSELL, CO-FOUNDER, HANDS UP UNITED: We are just waiting on an indictment, the same thing as we marched in the streets and protested about. We're anxious to actually receive what we want, which is simple justice, man. We just want the system of policing to be held accountable.

LEMON: So what happens if there is not an indictment? Do you feel that justice will not have been served, correct?

RUSSELL: We do not.

There's too much racial bias in our policing systems and several systems that we're a part of to believe that a young teenage boy with his hands up was shot and killed on August 9 and also left out there for four-and-a-half-hours. All the grand jury things going on, we don't think that's justice. We think that's injustice.

LEMON: So, Tory, are you urging calm regardless of the decision? What you're asking for in that regard?

RUSSELL: We have done 20-plus nonviolent direct action trainings. We have trained up to 1,000 new people in that. I am urging calm. I'm urging calm for the police officers to not pepper-spray me, tear gas me, mace me and shoot rubber bullets.

And some nights, they shot people with real bullets. I think people need to urge the police to be calm. Stop hurting kids. Stop traumatizing our communities.

LEMON: So, Tory, over the -- since the initial uproar that happened shortly after the death of Michael Brown, do you feel that the protesters have been portrayed in a correct light? Because we do see some unrest, not nearly as much as in the beginning.

RUSSELL: I just want it to be fair. For a couple hours of looting and rioting, all I get is, are you going to be peaceful? Are you an advocate for calm? I'm an advocate for nonviolent direct action. I don't hear any of those things. You have the KKK running around saying they will use lethal force on

us and they have open carry marches and parades and no one does anything. The police is killing people, Vonderrick Myers, Kimberly Randall King, Akai Gurley in New York.

It's everywhere and no one is asking the police or KKK or the FBI or the Department of Justice, are you going to keep the calm? You ran for the job, you wanted the job, the job is yours. You took an oath. Why don't you keep calm and serve the communities. I'm paying your bills. You need go ahead and do what I tell you to.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Is there some solace in, Tory, in that the Justice Department is conducting several investigations into police departments in this area and around the country?

RUSSELL: They are doing investigations, but right now we're worrying about Darren Wilson. We're worrying about what we have right now, now that Ferguson is everywhere. So, right now, we're in anticipation of this indictment or this announcement. And we're just hopeful that we get what we have been marching and protesting and doing nonviolent direct actions for.

LEMON: Tory Russell is the co-founder of Hands Up United. We're hoping that there is peace on all sides, on all fronts here. Thank you very much for joining us.

I want to now get to our legal panel, Lisa Monet Wayne, Mark O'Mara, Jeff Toobin, and also Danny Cevallos, and Evan Perez, our justice reporter, will join me as well. He will weigh in.

So, I want to get to now, Lisa, you and I spoke just a short time ago regarding the Brown family being notified and I'm hearing now from the Brown family attorneys that they have been notified and you said that's more of a courtesy and you think they should have gotten that courtesy. It appears that that has happened now.

LISA MONET WAYNE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right.

It sounded like there had bean promise made to them in regards to that and my feeling was, if you made a promise, you should keep that with the family because there's all this distrust and you are undermining any kind of trust that you want with the family and with the community if you have those kind of missteps in terms of the communication.

So I'm glad that they are listening to CNN. Someone must have high- tailed over to someone else and said we need to get notice to this family. That's a good thing. You can't have those kind of missteps before this decision is out in the public eye.

LEMON: And, Mark, we have talked about it and also Evan weighed in on it as well about the -- about Darren Wilson and his representatives pretty much knowing what's going to happen even before an announcement because he will be asked to surrender, most likely, if he's going to be indicted. If not, he won't be asked to surrender. MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the thought is that if an

indictment comes that they should have Darren Wilson already in custody mainly for his protection.

If an indictment is going to be there, he is going to have to be arrested and then he's going to have to go before a judge for what they call basically a first appearance and at some point, not then, but at some point in the future, there will be a bond hearing. But he will be in custody until then.

For his own safety he shouldn't be streets if there's an indictment. And then, of course, they may tell him the same thing, some prior notice to say we don't need you coming in. Of course, that type of insight will tell the defense team exactly what's going on with the decision.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hang on one second, Lisa, before I get to you.

WAYNE: OK.

LEMON: I want to get Evan Perez. Evan has some news. Then I will get back to you, Lisa, I promise.

Evan Perez, our justice reporter, is here.

Evan, what do you know?

PEREZ: Don, we just got some new information on what the plan is. We know as I mentioned just a little earlier that the grand jury has been released. They have been sent home.

We know at 4:00 p.m. Central time, that's local time we expect we will get a notice from the prosecutor's office that they are planning to release the decision later on. Gives law enforcement a little extra time to prepare. We know that nationally around the country now police departments, federal law enforcement has been put on alert because they expect that there will be protests not only here, not only here in Clayton, in Ferguson, in Saint Louis, but also around the country.

We know that some groups have already said that once a decision comes, they will go out to the streets and they will make their voice heard. So just as, again, not because they are expecting big trouble, it's just they want to be ready in case of anything.

LEMON: And in this instance, you assume -- before the announcement for the George Zimmerman verdict people were saying why are you saying don't be violent? You know, it just seems a little bit odd. There was no violence before that. But we have had violence in this particular case and that's why everyone involved is urging calm.

Even the protester, even the young man from the Hands Up Coalition, he said he wants peace from police officers and from the protesters as well. But, Evan, this doesn't change any of the reporting as well. We don't know what the announcement will be. We just know that there will be an announcement.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREZ: Right, exactly. We don't exactly know what the announcement is. But I think what this signals to you is that now law enforcement is being given the go-ahead to make sure that they are ready and, again, this is being done nationally, not just here in the Saint Louis area, but around the country. We know that the plans were for police to set up their special operations center. They want to make sure their officers are ready, just obviously abundance of caution.

But you don't know what to expect and you don't want to be caught by surprise.

LEMON: All right, Evan, thank you very much. Evan, stand by. Evan will continue to join us here.

I want to get back to my panel and have them weigh in.

Lisa, you wanted to weigh. If you want to discuss something, you can weigh in on what Evan was saying or what you were doing before I so rudely interrupted you. Sorry about that.

WAYNE: No, you didn't.

I wanted to add to what Mark said and what is could be interesting in this case, and depending upon the charge that may come back, let's say there is a true bill on a lesser charge, I know Mark and I have had cases where you can reach an agreement with the prosecutor before the indictment comes back about whether your client remains free on bond.

And if a lesser charge came back here, that would be something I would think probably would be in place, that he would be out.

LEMON: I think it's important that we go -- thank you very much.

You're reading my mind in the control room there. These are the charges, the possibility of the charges, Danny Cevallos.

First-degree murder, second-degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter. Take us through what's likely in this particular case if let's say that there is an indictment. What would happen with an involuntary manslaughter charge? And then go up to voluntary, second-degree, first-degree, Danny.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Involuntary traditionally is an unintentional killing with a high degree of culpability like recklessness or depending on the individual statute in the state.

Once you move into voluntary manslaughter -- many people have said that calling voluntary and involuntary both of them manslaughter is a little misleading, because they are two very different crimes. The level of -- and when you get to voluntary manslaughter, that may be a knowing killing, but without the -- in that way it's very different from involuntary because the involuntary manslaughter is always an unintentional. When you get to first- and second-degree murder, first-degree murder

is that intentional killing, but Missouri requires that element of deliberation. And as we have all discussed, that can come in a moment. It doesn't need to be planned out with charts and diagrams. When you get to second-degree murder, that's just an intentional killing that the prosecution cannot show or does not believe it can show that extra element of deliberation.

But the differences are relatively slight. However, the penalties once you're up in murder are very severe. First-degree murder will be life or death and literally life or death and everything below that gets decreasingly serious when it comes to penalties.

LEMON: OK.

Jeffrey Toobin, how difficult is it to for a police officer -- to indict a police officer in an officer-involved shooting?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's certainly very difficult to convict police officers. One of the most memorable trials I ever covered was in Albany, New York, of the four New York City police officers who shot the unarmed African immigrant Abner Louima in the Bronx.

People may remember the Bruce Springsteen song "41 Shots" that's based on this death. And that was a trial that ended in an acquittal, not withstanding the fact that this unarmed man was shot 41 times. That is more common than not. Jurors, prosecutors, ordinary citizens have a lot of sympathy, a lot of identification for police officers, often more than their victims, so these cases are relatively hard to bring, but they are very hard to win for prosecutors.

LEMON: All right. Jeffrey Toobin, Lisa Monet Wayne, Mark O'Mara and Danny Cevallos, stand by. I need to get a quick break in.

We're awaiting a decision on whether or not this grand jury will indict officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown. Back with our breaking news right after a very quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Don Lemon back now with our breaking news.

I'm outside of the Justice Center here in Clayton, Missouri, near Ferguson, Missouri, of course, where Michael Brown was shot back on August 9.

We're getting word from our justice correspondent a decision has been reached by the grand jury. According to Evan Perez just a short time ago he said the grand jury has been released and that the prosecutor will make an announcement this evening, but someone will come here very shortly, make an announcement that there is an announcement and then later on this evening there will be an announcement.

That announcement expected to be a decision on whether officer Darren Wilson will be indicted for the shooting death of Michael Brown. Again, that is our breaking news.

I want to get now to CNN's Sunny Hostin, our legal analyst here on CNN. Sunny has been speaking with the Brown family attorney Benjamin Crump.

Sunny, we got word just a short time ago that the family had been notified, but you will tell us how the family has been notified and what went on.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right.

I just spoke with Ben Crump, the Brown family attorney, Don, and he tells me that just minutes ago, the -- someone from the prosecutor's office, not Mr. McCulloch, but a representative from the prosecutor's office did call both attorneys Anthony Gray and Ben Crump. They were on a conference call.

They were told that a decision has been made. They were not told what that decision is. They were also told that about 5:00 some sort of announcement would be made. He then also told me, though, that, again, the first time that the family heard that a grand jury decision had been made was from me about at least an hour before anyone from the prosecutor's office contacted the family.

LEMON: All right. Sunny, here's your interview. Let's listen now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF MICHAEL BROWN: At this time, the only information we have heard about a decision or anything has been from the news sources, CNN. And that's all we have heard. We have heard nothing from the prosecutor's office at this time.

HOSTIN: We have been told or we have heard from you and from others that there was an agreement that the prosecutor's office would give you or Anthony Gray, your co-counsel, at least a six-hour window when a decision is reached. Is that accurate?

CRUMP: Well, they said they would give us notice. The time has varied how much notice that they are going to give us, but we would hope before they talk to media and they talk to others that they would have the respect for this grieving family to notify them before they notify anybody else.

It's very painful to the family of Michael Brown that they are finding that a decision may be announced today from the media. They don't think that's respectful.

HOSTIN: Well, when is the last time the prosecutor's office has reached out to the family?

CRUMP: As I understand it, it was last week.

HOSTIN: And has the family met with the prosecutor's office in person?

CRUMP: They have not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And, again, that was before the family had been notified.

And our Sunny Hostin joins us now on phone.

Sunny, the family has been notified and the question is, should the family have been notified earlier? I think many people will believe that they should have been.

HOSTIN: I'm sorry, Don. Can you repeat the last thing that you just said? I couldn't hear you.

LEMON: I said the question is, should the family have been notified earlier? And there are many who think that they should have been.

HOSTIN: Yes.

You know, it's very common, Don, for a prosecutor when putting a case in front of a grand jury to contact a victim's family, to meet with the victim's family, to assign a victims advocate to help them through the process, to sort of hold their hand through the process.

My understanding is that none of that has been done. And Ben Crump told me very clearly that the family doesn't trust the process because of that, doesn't trust the system, and was hurt, quite frankly, by being so kept out of the loop on what has been going on. They were shocked when they did finally get notified that there was a decision, that they were notified only after it had been widely reported and only after I told them.

And so this is just a very, very unusual process just from beginning.

LEMON: Yes. Why is that, Sunny? You have said that all along, that you believe this grand jury process, the way it's been handled, you think that it's unusual. Elaborate on that.

HOSTIN: You know, it's unusual because when prosecutors want to indict a case, in police shootings or any other case, typically the evidence that is brought in front of the grand jury is your best hits. It's a very streamlined presentation. Sometimes, you only put in your investigating officers to give a detailed report of what they investigated and what they saw.

And then you present the charges, the potential charges to the grand jurors. And the grand jury deliberates. Never have I heard in any case of a prosecutor putting forth in front of a grand jury, Don, every single piece of evidence available, even evidence that isn't going to be admissible at trial.

It's very overwhelming for a grand jury. It's very muddy for a grand jury, and it's just simply not done. And so, you know, when you look at that in conjunction with the fact that the family wasn't a part of the process, wasn't met with, wasn't advised of the process, and ultimately wasn't even advised of the decision until after it had already been leaked, it's just -- it's bizarre, quite frankly. I have never seen anything like it.

LEMON: All right.

All right, CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin. And Sunny will be joining us throughout the evening here on CNN with more legal analysis.

I'm Don Lemon live in front of the Justice Center in Clayton, Missouri, where we're expecting an announcement at any moment now. And we will bring that to you live as soon as it happens.

The breaking news here on CNN, a grand jury has reached a decision. We will know that decision soon -- back in a moment.

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