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Ferguson Grand Jury Reaches Decision On Michael Brown Case

Aired November 24, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news coming out of the St. Louis area, specifically Clayton, Missouri, a grand jury has been released according to our justice reporter here, Evan Perez. Grand jury has been released. They have reached a decision on whether to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of unarmed teenager Michael Brown. We should get an announcement very shortly. We'll bring that live.

Joining me now to talk all about this is Rashid Abdul Salaam. He is a private investigator who is from St. Louis and worked there as a police officer, also going to bring in political commentator Marc Lamont Hill and our justice reporter Evan Perez with me on the scene as well.

So first, let me get to you, Mr. Salaam. It's interesting that you have worked as a police officer. What are you expecting from this announcement? What do you think is going to happen?

RASHID ABDUL SALAAM, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR AND SECURITY SPECIALIST: Well, of course, they've already been prepped and been debriefed as to what their orders are going forward. I don't know if they already know what the decision is. But you may be able to detect that by whatever the moments are by the police, departments and some of the personnel.

But their orders have already been explained. They've already gone over scenarios. We can expect that they've had situational training to anticipate what to expect and certainly has been fine tuned since the situations that happened previously there in Ferguson and also a lot has been learned about how the police responded in reference to the riots that occurred in the Rodney King verdict.

And just one small thing, I was actually a police officer in the Kansas City, Missouri area which isn't very far.

LEMON: All right. Pardon us for that. Thank you very much.

SALAAM: No problem.

LEMON: For helping us get it right here.

So I have to ask you this, though, as you see Evan is on the screen as well. And Evan reported just a few minutes ago that it's not just here in the St. Louis area that law enforcement all over the country really getting ready for this because they don't know what's going to happen. SALAAM: That's true. And they would be -- departments would be

remiss if they did not prepare for it in light of we knew what would happen as a result of the verdict that came from the Rodney King situation. It is ironic because the first day I arrived in Atlanta from Missouri was on the Rodney King verdict day and I didn't know what was going on, and so it was quite interesting.

And as we know, those particular incidents spilled over for several days. So, all that has to be a lesson in going forward and approaching and being prepared for this situation throughout the country, not just in Ferguson, Missouri or the St. Louis metropolitan area and all of Missouri, but all over the country.

LEMON: Marc Lamont Hill on the ground in Ferguson. Marc, you have been out and about in the community off and on since the shooting happened. You've been here for, I think, about a week now, almost a week now. At first, before you react to the decision or to the announcement, what are you seeing around you especially in light that there will be an announcement soon. What are you hearing?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I expected a little more heightened anxiety. People are talking every where I've gone since the announcement. I found out from people on the street quicker than I found out from my sources on the ground here. People are just talking about it. There's a lot of energy, but there is not as much anxiety. This is being kind of quiet optimism that things may work out.

I think many people felt because the deliberations took so long they may be deciding which charge to give as opposed to not giving a charge at all. But the one thing that I can say and I've meet with activists all weekend, I have to speak with committee organizer as recent as five minutes ago, everyone seems to be prepared for a peaceful protest, the peaceful resistance in the case of a non-indictment.

LEMON: Yes.

So, our Sara Sidner interviewed a resident out in front of the Ferguson police department just a short time ago, Marc, and that resident said we don't think the officer, pretty much we sort of resigned ourselves to the fact, and again, that's him saying it that they believe that the officer will not be indicted. And so they prepared themselves in many ways. And so, there may not be the amount of violence or frustration in some sense or anger as many had expected, Marc?

HILL: I think that's at that really good point. I mean, this generation of activists, this generation of young people has prepared for disappointment. Now, you know, five years ago when they fought for (INAUDIBLE) or 20 years ago when they fought for Rodney King, there was an expectation that, of course, the state will do the right thing.

Now they don't have that kind of expectation post-Trayvon, post-Jordan Davis, the first time. They have been prepared for disappointment. And so, there won't be a shock that would lead to the type of outrage many people are expecting. I think people want to see protests to foreign (ph). They want to see the fighting and looting and fires. I think what they are going to see is principled protests and not too much violence.

LEMON: Yes.

Evan Perez, just a short time ago you gave us information about coming from Washington about law enforcement not only in the St. Louis area, the Ferguson area but also across the country.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Don. You know, there's been really a plan in place from the beginning that when this grand jury makes a decision that, you know, they will activate their special operations centers. The police departments around the country and in several major cities are expecting there will be protests that will be taking place there also, federal law enforcement. We know that, you know, they have been preparing as well.

You know, what Marc was talking about is this expectation that perhaps this time there won't be as much trouble and I think, you know, certainly, law enforcement has been working on that. They have been doing intelligence. They have been looking trying to figure out, you know, where they might expect problems and to anticipate.

What happened in August was almost spontaneous. And so it's really difficult to have those same conditions again and so that's probably one reason why there is probably some optimism that maybe we won't see the same repeat of what happened in August.

LEMON: All right. Thanks very much to all of my guests as we await an announcement here at the justice center in Clayton, Missouri not very far from Ferguson, Missouri.

Usually, it would be sort of a quiet Monday going into the holiday, but things are abuzz here near the justice system as we wait on this announcement. It should happen very soon. We'll carry it four live here on CNN. We are going to get a quick break in. We will be right back, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back now live from Clayton, Missouri, just outside of Ferguson, Missouri.

We are being told by our justice reporter Evan Perez that the grand jury has been released, that they have reached a decision. We should get an announcement soon, an announcement that there is a decision and then later on this evening an official announcement.

We have lots of news to get to here. I want to bring in my colleague Stephanie Elam. Stephanie, if you could walk in here.

Stephanie, I understand, you have some new information that you need to talk us about what's going on in the area.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. I just got an email showing that at least one office building actually shutting down, Don, because of this grand jury decision and it's effective immediately. And that they plan on maybe staying closed tomorrow depending on what happens tonight. They are going to be alerting the people who work in that building what to do. So, it is just showing that some of the nervousness is now permuting through.

LEMON: And as we've been going back and forth here on the business strip here in Clayton, we some businesses are not open today. Which is a little bit unusual considering this is a big holiday week and shopping week.

ELAM: And Clayton -- I mean, it is a cute little shopping town. Like there's places as you can go to. And I actually tried to get a couple of people who are shop owners to go on camera with me. And the first it was yes, and then it became no. They are nervous about what's going to happen here and they just didn't want to be targeted by any agitators who may come out here.

So people are nervous. And the one shop owner that I spoke to for the longest time telling me the biggest concern are the people that work at her shop not so much about the store. She was like I can handle that but I want my people to be safe. And so, taking those precautions today.

LEMON: It's affecting the bottom line for a number of businesses in the area but more concerned about the safety of the people and not necessarily about the bottom line.

ELAM: Yes, that's what I heard. I mean, and these are -- you know, they are small businesses. They are not -- the companies that you are talking to they are not big box businesses, they are mom and pop shops and places where people know the owners and that type of thing and just wanting to make sure that everything stays safe so they can move past this and make the best of the holiday season as far as making that money.

LEMON: Yes. It's unfortunate. But we want them to be safe. Thank you very much.

ELAM: Yes, we do.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Stephanie Elam.

Let's analyze some of this now. I want to get to our legal analyst Sunny Hostin, also Lisa Monet Wayne, Mark O'Mara, Jeffrey Toobin and Danny Cevallos as well.

Sunny, if I can get to you first. The first time I'm seeing you on camera, you just spoke with the Brown family attorney and he weighed in on the family notification. He thought it was a courtesy that should have happened a lot sooner.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. I mean, he made it very clear that they were very disappointed. He said that it was hurtful. Those were his words. That the family had been kept out of the loop, had not heard about this jury decision, grand jury decision directly from the prosecutor's office, rather they heard it from me.

And so they certainly don't have good feelings about the process. And I did also ask him what they felt would be their recourse if perhaps there was no indictment and he said they would certainly follow through with any possible legal action, they were still then hopeful about the federal investigation that's pending, they said that they would look into civil remedies but they were still hopeful, Don, still hopeful that there would be an indictment in this case.

LEMON: OK. Sunny, stand by. I want to get this in. This is officially now, this is coming from the St. Louis county Missouri, the office of the prosecuting attorney here and I'm going to read it on camera for all of my guests involved and then we can talk about it.

Again this is a grand jury hearing, the Michael Brown/Darren Wilson investigation has reached a decision and it will be announced later today, details to follow. So the media should get more information. Again this is coming from the office of the prosecuting attorney, St. Louis County, Missouri.

So there we have it, Jeffrey Toobin, an official announcement of the announcement and we don't know exactly what that announcement will be once it comes later this evening.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And, obviously, this has been something that the authorities there have been planning for for a long time. I personally find it odd that it looks like this announcement is going to take place after dark, which is not probably a very good idea.

And can I just jump in, Don, with one other thing. I earlier made a reference to the young man who was shot in the Bronx and I said his name incorrectly. And of course, his name is (INAUDIBLE). He was the person, the four cops were acquitted by, the Bruce Springsteen song is about him and I thank all my friends on social media for reminding me instantly of the mistake.

LEMON: There are a lot of moving parts so I think it's understandable. There is a lot going on and a lot to absorb. So continue on, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: Well, no. I just think this is a rather drawn out process and to make this announcement in the nighttime, when it's dark when obviously the security of community and all communities in New York and around the country are at issue in St. Louis and elsewhere, I think it's a little peculiar. Now, obviously, I hope everything works out OK but since the decision has been made and it clearly could have been announced during the daylight, I think it's a little strange to wait until it's dark out.

LEMON: Lisa, listen, the timing is an issue here because we're getting close to the thanksgiving holiday and many had wondered if they were going to make the announcement after the holiday. And also, you know, Jeffrey is talking about as night falls here. But does the grand jury really take that into consideration? Do grand juries consider all of those parts, all of those things? LISA MONET WAYNE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think the grand jury

cares about, you know, the timing and the media release and all those things. They are gone. They left the building. So they have a decision. So at this point it's out of their hands. This becomes a decision of the prosecutor's office and law enforcement. So I'm in total agreement with Jeffrey. I was taken a little taken aback when they said they are going to announced it tonight, unless tonight they are going to announce that they are going to announce it in the morning.

So it doesn't seem like had they are really thinking through this. Again it's another misstep, right. Is it tensional? I don't know. But I think it's odd.

LEMON: Yes. It is the announcement of the announcement of the announcement then.

So Mark O'Mara, I have to ask you this because the prosecuting attorney Bob McCulloch here. I'd said it said again, he wanted to release all of the information. Of course, the judge that's overseeing the grand jury saying, you know, that's up to her whether she does it or not.

But there was also some question about redacting the names of the grand jury out of safety. Do you think we might get the names or we may hear the names of the grand jury or it is more than likely that those names will be redacted and we will never know?

MARK O'MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: As to that particular question, I should think it's a good idea that we redact the names of the witnesses particularly those that want to be redacted. There are some who have already put their name out in the public view and they may be in a category where they are going to release them.

But if I was a witness in the grand jury and said look I want my name redacted for now, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days whatever because we know with the emotions wrapped around this case. There's going be a reaction. If there's no true bill, then it is going to be a reaction from the black communities that says there is not -- justice has not been served and the process needs be protected. And that process is only there because of witnesses are going to come forward and speak the truth. So the idea of protecting I think is a good idea. Eventually those names will be out. We need to allow things to calm down after a no true bill if that happens.

LEMON: So, Danny, Mark is saying the witnesses and the grand jury, can they have their names redacted or not released to the public if they want it that way?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. Statutorily, the votes and the deliberation cannot be released to the public. Beyond that it is within a judge's discretion. However, we've been talking about the secrecy of a grand jury. But without -- people seem to misunderstand there's a very good public policy reason for that secrecy.

Number one, it permits law enforcement to do an investigation or prosecutors to investigate a crime and seek an indictment without in other cases not in this case a potential defendant knowing that he's being investigated and affecting evidence. The other thing the secrecy does is encourage witnesses who might otherwise be terrified to come forward to come in and actually testify without fear of reprisal.

So the secrecy rule is not just some arbitrary thing that we have developed over time. It serves an important public police purpose. And Mark and Jeff will tell you that getting grand jury testimony after the grand jury has been released is often incredibly difficult and in some jurisdictions, like Mark will tell you in Florida, you may never see grand jury testimony or grand jury transcript. So understanding that the assumption is against for disclosure, it should be and is difficult to get behind the bail of secrecy of a grand jury and with good purpose.

LEMON: Quickly, Sunny, I got to get to a break but go ahead.

HOSTIN: You know we now know the grand jurors have been released. I think we should make it clear that the grand jurors themselves their identities will remain secret, absence a court order. Witnesses may come forward. Witnesses aren't really protected by the secrecy rules. So if they want to talk, they can. But we shouldn't be hearing from the grand jurors unless a judge says it's OK.

LEMON: All right. Everyone, stand by. Stand by, everyone.

Again, we've gotten official word from the St. Louis county prosecutor's office that there will be an announcement. That they have come to a decision. They'll make an announcement later on this evening. So far, we have not heard from the officer nor his representatives, Officer Darren Wilson in this case. But we have heard from Michael Brown's family.

And on the other side of this break, we're going to hear a message from Michael Brown Sr.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right, we're back now with our breaking news from the St. Louis area. Again, an announcement, we've gotten officially from the St. Louis county prosecutor's office that there will be an announcement made later on this evening about whether or not to indict Officer Darren Wilson. We're not exactly sure if that's going to be an announcement. We're hearing an announcement will be made.

So here's what we're getting from -- I said that before the break there was a message from Michael Brown's family. Here's what it is. It says, Michael Brown's family asks for a moment of silence tonight. The family of Michael Brown is asking there be a moment of silence tonight before protests begin. They are asking that the moment of silence lasts four-and-a-half minutes to signify the amount of time that Brown's body lay on the street following the shooting, meaning four-and-a-half hours.

So I think it's appropriate now to bring in Ted Poe, who is a rapper and activist and he actually traveled to the U.N. with the Brown family.

Thank you for joining us. Listen. The family is asking for a moment of silence. What's your reaction to that, first of all?

TED POE, RAPPER/FERGUSON ACTIVIST: I mean, we should totally engulf ourselves to the wishes of the family. Right now, this is really about Michael Brown Jr. And the countless other victims and the family themselves are included in that. They're victims as well.

LEMON: So you are in Ferguson and I understand that -- I'm sure you have been talking to people since it has been said that the announcement was going to be made. What's the reaction and what's your reaction to this?

POE: I'm very much hopeful that we will hear that Darren Wilson has been indicted for these crimes that he has committed. I think that this is the perfect opportunity for Missouri to reverse the legacy that we've built as one of the premier -- racist states in our country at the current date and time. I think that it's a golden opportunity for us to showcase unity and also the fact that the judicial system will stand on the right side of history when the story is told. I look forward and I am very hopeful to getting that charges or pressed against Darren Wilson.

LEMON: OK. Now, I have to ask you. What happens if he's not indicted? Then, what's your response? What's your message if he's not indicted? And then, where do you go from here?

POE: I mean, as a community, we continue to steadfast protest and educate each other about the highs and lows of the judicial system and what it means to really be politically engaged for black Americans in this country.

On the other end of the stick, you know, people bring up questions and assumptions about violence. And I'd like to reinvigorate, you know, for the last 107 days, you haven't seen a police officer harmed. You haven't seen a police officer touched. We don't have the weapons. They have the weapons. They have the armored vehicles. They have the teargas. They have the rubber bullets. They have the live ammunition. We're just regular citizens choosing to uphold our first amendment right and hoping that the judicial system will hear our cries.

Our community is wounded right now. And we're asking for resolve and we are asking for our politicians and leaders to step up and lead and do their jobs. And I'm very hopeful and faithful that as a community we'll respond the right way.

LEMON: Do you -- how has the relationship changed if at all between the community and the police department? I know that the Ferguson police department really hasn't had that much to do with the protests. I think the St. Louis County and the highway patrol have been really dealing with a lot of it. But has the relationship improved at all?

POE: I can't say that it has, Don. We're looking for accountability in realtime from the police department. We're looking for emotional responses to the fact that we are human beings, that we have a humane existence in this country and we have the right to exist without being gunned down, without being vilified in the news after we were murdered in the middle of the street, you know.

It's a real tragedy that, you know, Michael Brown was left in the street for four-and-a-half hours. And people still have the nerve after the fact to demonize his legacy, to paint him as an unsavory character when he was the one that was left dead in the middle of the street. And I think that's what we represent right here right now with Ferguson is the outcry, the emotional outcry to the situation.

Claire McCaskill cannot respond from an emotional standpoint. Bob McCulloch will not respond from an emotional standpoint. I will respond from an emotional standpoint because I am a regular citizen. Countless others will respond for the standpoint of what is right. Is it right to leave Michael Brown dead in the middle of the street for four-and-a-half hours?

Bottom line, was he unarmed or not? He was unarmed with his hands in the air. That's the bottom line.

LEMON: I don't mean to interrupt. But let me get in here because we don't have much time left, you and I together. And I want to ask you, number one, why do you think this particular case has become such a touchstone and what is your message to people before this announcement? What do you want to say to the protesters? Again, why has this become such a touchstone and what's your message to protesters?

POE: My message to the protesters is just stay unified, stay unified, stay clear on what our message is, and let's be mindful of the concerns of the parents.

I think that this case became such a touchstone because here in St. Louis, Missouri, we have a fluid history of institutionalized racism. People don't want to call it what it is. White supremacy is deeply rooted here in Missouri, deeply rooted in St. Louis, deeply rooted in the way that the police conduct themselves. And I think that it finally went overboard, that they finally did too much. They were too reassured of what their brutal tactics that nothing can happen. And something finally did happen.

Michael Brown isn't the first. I can talk about Carrie Ball (ph), I can talk about Von Derek Myers (ph), I can talk about countless other victims that did not get the media allure that Michael Brown got. But they're all connected. It's all one chain of events. It's all one family tree. And what this represents is us saying to Missouri we will not longer allow you to conduct yourself as the Mississippi of my era. You are no longer the Alabama of this civil rights era.

LEMON: Well, Ted Poe, we thank you for coming on. That is, unfortunately, all the time we have left here.

I thank you for joining us. I'm Don Lemon with our breaking news. My colleague Jake Tapper with "THE LEAD" picks it up from here.