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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Discussion of Ferguson Grand Jury Transcripts; Cleveland 12- Year-Old Shot While Brandishing a Gun, Which Turned Out to Be Fake; Replay of a Cosby Accuser Being Interviewed

Aired November 24, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: But then there's that whole sticky notion that a judge actually has to OK that. Is there any talk there that that might be the sticking point -- a judge won't OK releasing all that evidence?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, there's no question about it. People are definitely talking about that. And I've said that actually from the very beginning, Ashleigh. It's so unusual to release grand jury transcripts. They are supposed to be secret under the law. And so the only way that we will find out what happened in front of this grand jury is if there is no bill and if a judge allows us to see.

And let's also remember that federal government is conducting an investigation, a parallel investigation. I suspect that the federal government will not want the grand jury transcripts to be released prior to the end of its investigation, so I don't think we're going to seeing grand jury transcripts anytime soon.

BANFIELD: Interesting. And that will be a source of consternation more than likely. So, (inaudible) Mark O'Mara, thanks. And Danny Cevallos, thank you. And since you're turning 40 today I'm going to ask you to stick around and do double duty on the next topic.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Happy birthday to you.

BANFIELD: It did make the air. He is turning 40. Thank you. So we're going to move on to the other story of the day. This one is one that if you're a parent, you absolutely need to know about this.

There's a community that's grieving the death of a young boy, because police say he was waving around a gun. What the police did not realize is it's one of those toy, air soft gun. So many kids have them, so many kids want them. And this one has led to a 12-year-old being killed. We're going to have more on that story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: There is outrage in Cleveland this morning. A 12-year-old boy is dead after being shot by a police officer for brandishing what turned out to be a toy air gun. As you can see, the air gun looks a heck of a lot like a real handgun.

The 911 caller told the operator that a juvenile was pointing a gun at people outside of recreation center and also said the gun seems like "it was fake". But it's clear if that was passed on to the police who were sent to the actual scene.

Listen to the 911 call for yourself.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): There's a guy in here with a pistol, and it's probably a fake one, but he's pointing it at everybody.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE): Where are you at sir?

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): I'm sitting in the park at West Cudell. The guy keeps pulling it in and out. It's probably fake, but he's scaring the (inaudible) out of people.

BANFIELD: Joining me now is Poppy Harlow, who's been following the story, and also CNN's legal analyst, Danny Cevallos. And Poppy, you got some new information on this?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know the name of the boy, the 12-year-old boy who is now dead. Tamir Rice is his name. And what we also know from the press conference that was just held by the authorities in Cleveland is if there is surveillance video, we don't know where it's from. It's a dash cam video, it's from the recreation center where this happened but its surveillance video the family has not viewed it yet. They've opted not to but the authorities have looked at it and the prosecutor said at some point this will become a public -- all the public will be able to see it. They're going to call a grand jury, of course in this case the officers including the officer who shot this young boy, are on paid leave at this point in time.

Let's pull up the gun again, so we can talk about what's really part of the core issue here, is the fact that this a toy gun, but that orange cap was removed from the front of it which signifies that it is fake or a BB gun. So it looks just like a real gun.

We also know from the police chief that the young boy did not point the weapon at the officers and he did not threaten them. But when they did yell at him to put his hands up authorities said that he reached down into his waistband where this toy, BB gun, was being held at this point time.

The attorney for the family talking about this, obviously the family distraught right now, this was a young African-American 12-year-old boy, the attorney for the family telling us here, at CNN, this is a black and white issue, this is a right and wrong issue.

And interestingly, Ashleigh and Danny, the mayor of Cleveland was just asked in his press conference about this in the context of what's happening in the Ferguson, Missouri right now. And he said, this is not about Ferguson at all, this is about the fact that a young boy was shot and killed in Cleveland.

BANFIELD: Did that video -- Do they say anything about the proximity of the police to the victim?

HARLOW: They did. They did. They said that to the victim and the officer were within 10 feet of one another. And we know the victim was shot twice went in for surgery and later died at the hospital.

BANFIELD: So, perhaps, just a little farther away from me to you, Danny. I'm not sure that this is maybe too early to even ask the legal questions here. But if they knew that information from the dispatch, if they knew that caller said probably fake, not sure, does it make a difference when you tell someone hands up and they go for what looks like a weapon? Does it matter?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Let's start at the beginning and talk about reasonable suspicion. When you hear that caller, basically saying a man with a gun, the interesting thing, and I think this may come up in the Second Amendment context, is that Cleveland police have recently recognized open carry laws, which means that the mere fact that somebody has a firearm in public is not by itself a reason to stop but what is critical here is the report in a 911 call that he appears to be pointing at people and waiving it around. That will drive it up to a very good reason to stop because someone is threatening harm.

Once you're in the scene, I imagine people are going to ask the question why not use a taser, why not use pepper spray?

BANFIELD: Yes.

CEVALLOS: Right. And I think police training manuals will generally support the idea that you do not need to meet a firearm with a taser or pepper spray that you need a firearm with lethal force.

And remember, police are trained to shoot and assess, shoot and assess, not shoot and wound, not shoot and scare. By the time the bullet is fired, they made an assessment and that assessment is to use deadly force.

BANFIELD: What we don't...

CEVALLOS: Stop the threat.

HARLOW: What we don't know yet Ashleigh is whether or not everything that was conveyed on that 911 call was then conveyed from dispatch to the officer.

BANFIELD: The responding officer.

HARLOW: That we don't yet know.

BANFIELD: I got 30 seconds left. And I'm not sure even how to ask this question, or if even matters. We got a 12-year-old kid here. There are 12-year-olds and there are 12-year-olds. Does it make a difference, the size of the person you're responding to if he or she is reaching into his waistband?

CEVALLOS: This is interesting because over the last year we've had a number of cases where you have people who are being shot and killed by police and there's recurring characteristics and it's that they're 6'5" and 300 pounds. And I've offered the idea that maybe there is a form of discrimination in America. And maybe it's size discrimination because if he was someone in (inaudible) who's, you know, 90 and -- 90 years old and 100 pounds, do they respond with the same amount of force? It's interesting question.

BANFIELD: And do we know anything about this -- the statue of the 12- year-old?

HARLOW: We don't know yet, we just got his name. We haven't seen any photographs, obviously, his family reeling (ph) at this point.

BANFIELD: Just awful. Parents, please, you know, tell you children cautious with these things. They look so realistic. And police, they have their training. It's a terrifying and very tragic story. Poppy Harlow, Danny Cevallos, thank you, I appreciate it.

Want to move on to some other news, another women has come out yet again, allegations against Bill Cosby. She says -- and here it comes again, he invented her to a party and what happens next was absolutely shocking. And she tells her story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The numbers may be growing but the stories are pretty much staying the same. A private encounter, a drink, or a pill, or numerous drinks or pill, incapacitation and then sexual assault, none of it ever proven, none of it even formally alleged beyond one civil lawsuit that was settled out of court a decade ago. But the stories just keep coming, including the one you're about to hear that predates all of the others. The accuser spoke to our Alisyn Camerota.

KRISTINA RUEHLI, ALLEGED COSBY ASSAULT VICTIM: I am a very -- woman that's very comfortable financially. I'm really happy. I have everything. I don't want his money or anyone else's.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, TV JOURNALIST: So, then why are you coming forward?

RUEHLI: Two reasons. One, I don't like to see these other women who had similar experiences called liars and trash in the media, when I know that I can speak for them. And the second reason, it was that it might encourage others, (inaudible), well, these are all new that I didn't know about and there may be dozens or hundreds of other victims.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 71-year-old Kristina Ruehli, says her encounter with comedian Bill Cosby took place in 1965 when she was 22 years old, making hers the earliest known alleged case. She was working as a secretary at a talent agency when she says Cosby invited her and several coworkers to a party at his house.

CAMEROTA: You get to the party for the beginning of what you think will be a party. And he prepares a cocktail for you?

RUEHLI: Yes, bourbon and seven, that was sort of the standard thing for me to drink at that time.

CAMEROTA: You have two drinks.

RUEHLI: I had two drinks that I'm clear about.

CAMEROTA: And then what happened?

RUEHLI: I don't remember a thing. I -- It went blank. When in you're in that kind a foggy state, you don't think of anything about that. You have drunk too much. So, I must have passed out again, because when awaken again, I found myself on bed.

CAMEROTA: And then what happened?

RUEHLI: He was there. He had his shirt off and I believe he had his pants off. It's pretty groggy. And he had his hand on the back of my head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says, he then tried to force her to perform oral sex.

RUEHLI: And so, I lifted my head away. I think it surprised him. I lifted my head away and pulled myself away immediately. And I went into the bathroom and I throw up and I know I throw up a couple a times. When I finished, I came out and he was gone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kristina believes it could have been worst. That Cosby could have raped her. A few months after the alleged incident, she says she told her boyfriend at a time what happened.

CAMEROTA: Did you tell anyone else other than your boyfriend?

RUEHLI: I might have. I might have but it's something that sort of may be you would tell you boyfriend but not. Girlfriends? Things were different. You talk about different things. You didn't' talk about date rape with a girlfriend.

CAMEROTA: Did it ever occur to you to go the police?

RUEHLI: No, he had not injured me. What had he done? He had exposed himself to me, but this was '60s. And it never occurred to me to go the police. I just went on with my life.

CAMEROTA: People are skeptical.

RUEHLI: I know.

CAMEROTA: Did Bill Cosby did this to you and to the other women? Bill Cosby was a likable...

RUEHLI: He was likable.

CAMEROTA: Back in '70s, '60s and '70s. So, why did he have to resort to drugging women?

RUEHLI: I don't think he's very attractive or sexy. I guess that's just my viewpoint. Maybe he is inadequate inside. But I've heard that this was a routine of his, all the time. Rape is about power not sex. Rape is about anger not sex. And until he had this series, "I Spy" which was a series that he had then, he was just a comedian. And the power that he found in his hands, he abused.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In 2005, 40 years later, Kristina read about another alleged victim, Andrea Constand. She'd filed a lawsuit against Cosby and Kristina wanted to help, becoming one of the 13 Jane Does in the case, which was settled for an undisclosed amount with Ms. Constand.

CAMEROTA: So, you basically volunteer your services, your memory to this other lawsuit but you did not stand to gain financially from being a part of this lawsuit?

RUEHLI: Oh no. And I didn't need it, I didn't need the aggravation but I thought what's the worst thing that can happen to me that somebody calls me a liar.

CAMEROTA: I want to read you a statement from Bill Cosby's attorney. "Lawsuits are filled against people in the public eye every day. There has never been a shortage of lawyers willing to represent people with claims against rich, powerful men, so it makes no sense that not one of these new women who just came forward for the first time, now ever asserted a legal claim back at the time they allege they have been sexually assaulted."

RUEHLI: Well, lawyers can be hired by rich powerful men to speak for them when they are silent. That's my answer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cosby's attorneys did not provide CCN with the response specific to Kristina's claims.

CAMEROTA: What do you think is going to happen next? Do you think that there's such deem (ph) now that's been created by these more than dozen women, yourself included who've come forward that he must respond?

RUEHLI: I think more will come forward. Whatever you follow here it doesn't end with me.

CAMEROTA: Do you think it's time for Bill Cosby to come forward and say something?

RUEHLI: I do. I wish he had courage. I wish he had the balls. Who would want 15 minutes of this kind of not saying shame? So, I'm here not that I think I'm this great courageous character person but to say to the others who have come forward and who I hope will come forward. It's great -- It takes courage.

BANFIELD: Bill Cosby, himself, spoke with a Florida newspaper over the weekend. And I've got a quote. I'm going to read to you, he said, "I know people are tired of me not saying anything, but a guy doesn't have to answer to innuendos. People should fact check. People shouldn't have to go through that and shouldn't answer to innuendos." We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Some pretty shocking alligations of rape and sexual assault and they are rocking the University of Virginia. UVA has now suspended all fraternity activities until January 9th following this scathing article in "Rolling Stone" magazine alleging the school fosters a culture of abuse that covers up sex crimes. In the article, one student claims she was gang-raped by seven fraternity members.

This morning, a third year history and pre-law student to UVA told CCN's New Day that the article did not surprise her.

MUSKAN MUMTAZ, ORGANIZED WEEKEND RALLY: For me reading the article wasn't anything shocking, but I was shocked by how many of my fellow peers and how many people outside of the campus were shocked. So I really wanted to bring attention to the issue in (inaudible) this sustainable dialogue based on the article and to kind of not let fizzle out just after its two minutes of fame.

BANFIELD: The UVA President Teresa Sullivan released a statement that says in part "the wrongs described in "Rolling Stone" are appalling and have caused all of us to reexamine our responsibility to this community."

Thanks so much for watching everyone. My colleague Wolf Blitzer starts right after this break.

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