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Riots In Ferguson, Missouri And Other States After Grand Jury's Decision Announced Last Night

Aired November 25, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But there are a lot of us that believe in the power of prayer. So now, I'll ask you to pray with me, bow your heads. As I have summoned the prayer to our only wise God. Our Father and our God, we first praise you for your goodness to our city and our nation. Giving us blessings far beyond what we deserve. Yet, we know all is not right with us. We deeply need a moral and a spiritual renewal to help us meet the many challenges we now face.

Help us to turn to you in r repentance and faith. We pray today for our nation's leader, leaders and for our city's leaders. Give them the wisdom to know what is right and the courage to do it. You said flock as a nation who God is the Lord.

May this be a new era for both Ferguson and for America as we humble ourselves and acknowledge as the savior and Lord. You alone are the only one with the authority, the power and the will to turn this situation around. So show us your mercy, Lord. Grand us your salvation, lord, keep this city and this nation under your care. And guide us in the way of justice and truth. Let your way be known up on the earth. And we will at least give your name the glory, the honor and the praise for doing it. Amen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayor, can you tell us if you have prior to the violence or at least in the beginnings of the violence, did you have a conversation with the governor about your desire for, you know, protection (INAUDIBLE)? And if so, what was said in that conversation? How did you respond?

MAYOR JAMES KNOWLES, FERGUSON, MISSOURI: That was stated through our police chief, working with the unified command. So when the preparations were made for the city and the region, our police chief was involved in some of those conversations, though he was not the decision maker in those conversations. And that request was expressed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayor Knowles, (INAUDIBLE). But is the city going to be reaching out to a lot of these businesses as others have changed? And a lot of people worried about what's what (INAUDIBLE). What should be done to try to attack some of these businesses to come back to Ferguson and convince them it's safe for them to rebuild there?

KNOWLES: Some of the local commerce and some of the local economic development organizations have already started that process as of early this morning. We've already been in that process since August, considering that this is some of these businesses have been hit twice. So that conversation has been going on since August and will continue.

We are absolutely dedicated to making sure that businesses, especially our mom and pops, especially those who invested their life and livelihoods into those businesses, that they'll have an opportunity to come back. And we would welcome them back and hope that they would maintain their businesses here in Ferguson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). But as the mayor of Ferguson, isn't the city itself and the mayor ultimately responsible for protecting (INAUDIBLE)?

KNOWLES: The state of Missouri took control through an emergency declaration from the governor. The assets that were deployed here were under control from the unified command. It was not decision made by myself nor a decision by our city manager or police chief or in the chain of command. So as much as I would like to be able to make that call, it was not my call to make.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

KNOWLES: Last night, we reached out both to the unified command and through political channels to make that known that we needed new assets, more assets available immediately for deployment in the city of Ferguson to protect our businesses and our neighborhoods.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) your employment?

KNOWLES: No decision has been made. His current employment status has not changed. He remains on administrative leave pending the outcome of an internal investigation. But it is a personal matter. Obviously, it's not up for discussion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mayor, do you believe (INAUDIBLE) did not get enough National Guard (INAUDIBLE) there are reports that perhaps the governor was upset. And that's why the National Guard to protect Ferguson. Is that true?

KNOWLES: I don't know if that's true. You're going to have to ask the governor that. I would hope that an elected official in the state of Missouri wouldn't be that petty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you heard anything (INAUDIBLE)?

KNOWLES: I heard those rumors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rumors?

KNOWLES: Well, it was from media, but yes, I heard those rumors.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: All right. So a lot of things to talk about. Let me just point out number one, the news that there is no news. There was an idea that perhaps the status change would be happening with regard to the future of Officer Darren Wilson according to the mayor of Ferguson who we just heard from, you know, responding to those reporters' questions. One question being, what happens to this police officer? And he said status remains unchanged. As of now, internal investigation remains on paid administrative leave. So that answers that question for you, at least, at this moment.

Secondly, we heard from a number of just locals in the community. And I thought they were making incredibly poignant statements, just one woman saying my heart bleeds for my city, the destruction of property, community, business. It's incredibly tragic what has happened in this town, not just, you know, in the last 24 hours, but really over the course of the last couple of months and the fear echoed amongst all of them is what happens tonight.

Just quickly, you've been looking at other pictures on your screen, just some contacts. We've been looking in Atlanta. Morehouse University, people (ph) have been protesting, making as taking a stand there, and also in Baltimore. We've learned in Baltimore, initially began as a rally at Morgan State University. And from what we're hearing, they're now blocking roads.

So not just in Ferguson, folks, but all across the country.

I've got a congressman who is joining me now. He's Congressman Lacy Clay. He represents Missouri's first congressional district.

So sir, you know, Ferguson, St. Louis County, you represent these fine folks in Washington. So welcome to you and I'm sorry about what has happened in this town. Just hearing -- let me begin with -- without the getting into the grand jury and he said/she said. It just you are there. You are seeing the destruction firsthand. What have you seen? How do you feel?

REP. LACY CLAY (D), MISSOURI: Well, first of all, thanks for having me, and this is my hometown. So it hurts my heart to see the destruction. To see what he -- we have really turned into. I just toured the business strip along west Florescent Avenue just now talking to the business owners, apologizing to them. And saying, how sorry I am for what has happened to them for the National Guard and local law enforcement. Not being there for them when the destruction come, and the economic destruction cause to them, cause to the families in Ferguson, and calls to this community. So I apologize to the business owners.

BALDWIN: Yes, absolutely. You know, there have been frustrations echoed as far as why this was made public at 8:00 last night, your time, the decision from the grand jury on behalf of this district attorney, Bob McCulloch. And I'm wondering if you degreed with it, because according to some of our own reporting federal and state officials didn't want this come down at night. It came down at night. Do you think it made everything that much worse?

CLAY: It certainly did. And I'm disappointed at the way Bob McCulloch contrived this whole process of a so-called secret grand jury proceeding. How he treated the family of Michael Brown and just how the process was carried out on his part knowing going in that he had no desire to indict this police armed man, no intention of doing it.

BALDWIN: So what do you think should have happen? Should had he have just -- he should've made the decision and not handed off to the grand jury as he has that power?

CLAY: Well, I have asked Governor Nixon today, since we still are in a state of emergency here to consider appointing a special prosecutor so that we can have a trial. We have had a very bias proceeding occur in the form of the grand jury, what a one-sided telling of the story. So now I believe it's time to have a trial and bring the facts out.

BALDWIN: Just Congressman Clay, if I'm hearing you correctly, even though this grand jury has spoken, and these grand jurors determined that lethal force was in fact warranted according to the law. You are saying, you're communicating with the governor of Missouri, and would still like to have a trial. How low is his response? Is that even possible?

CLAY: I'm not sure. I'm not an attorney but I'm waiting on a response from the governor now. Here's what I know about the grand jury proceeding, is that it wasn't -- it did not carry out the way it should have. The proceeding is supposed to be secret. It wasn't that. You are not supposed to let a -- the key target of the investigation come into a grand jury proceeding, testify for four hours and not even have the grand jury ask them questions. And so, I have asked that they look at this.

Also, I have much more confidence in the federal investigation that the justice department is conducting right now. The attorney general has assured me that it will be a thorough investigation, and he will let the facts lead us to where it may.

BALDWIN: I am glad you brought that up, sir. Because I think it's worth reminding all of our viewers that even though apparently they have spoken, yes, indeed that federal investigation is underway. We are still awaiting that outcome.

But let me bring this to the current moment. We're talking now. It is 2:30, just about, your time in Ferguson, Missouri, we are hours away from that sun going down. And I'm wondering your thoughts on this evening. We saw what happened last night. And what's being done to call for calm, to protect these people.

CLAY: Well, I have shared with the community that this process is not over. We still have an ongoing federal investigation and another parallel investigation into practices of police forces in this region and how they conduct themselves and how they interact with this community. So I've urged the community to be patient with this process and to not destroy. That ruins the memory of Michael Brown. And you have heard both of his parents ask not to mark their son's memory in this way.

BALDWIN: Congressman Lacy Clay, Ferguson is your home. I appreciate you joining me. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

CLAY: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: We will take a quick break on the other side of the break; we'll hear a little bit more from this interview with Darren Wilson here after the grand jury has now decided. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, not even 24 hours have passed since the decision was made public by the district attorney there in St. Louis County announcing the grand jury findings. We know have continued protests during the day here.

Let me show you two pictures. We have the Atlanta on one side of your screen, which is the left side of your screen here, originating at Morehouse University, Morehouse men marching along the street. And on the right side of your screen, you are seeing traffic stopped. You see protesters in the middle of the roads. This is Baltimore. Baltimore, Maryland.

So protests in both of these cities -- forgive me, St. Louis, we're looking at Baltimore earlier. That is St. Louis on the right side of your screen. So people out. You know, we're finally hearing for the very first time. Let me say that again, for the first time from Officer Darren Wilson. ABC's George Stephanopoulos just talked to him in this hour plus interview. Here's more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: I asked him directly, did he shoot towards Michael Brown's back? He said, no. He said Michael Brown reached into his car, grabbed for his gun, and that's why he feared for his life. He also said that later when Michael Brown left the car, he actually charged toward Officer Wilson. Did not raise his hands in surrender and that's why Officer Wilson said he had to shoot Michael Brown on that day.

Well, he did say he was sorry for the loss of life, in the loss of Michael Brown's life. He said he would not do anything different that day that he did what he was trained to do. He was simply doing his job.

I also asked him directly. I pressed him. I said, would this have gone down any differently if Michael Brown were white? He said, absolutely not. He says he has a clean conscience over his actions that day, even though he's sorry for the loss of life and understands the grief of Michael Brown's parents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right. So that is just the latest we're getting from the sit-down interview as we get more and more tidbits here, getting a fuller picture from the man himself, from Officer Darren Wilson.

Let me bring in my two legal experts who have been poring through all of this for quite a while, Mel Robbins and Joey Jackson.

And let's just begin with what these little drips and drabs we're getting from this interview that he, Darren Wilson, told George Stephanopoulos he would've done the same thing whether Michael Brown was black, white. That he was sorry. That, again, you know, saying he was fearing for his life. That Michael Brown did reach into the car, he did charge at him. That his hands weren't up -- response.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, I don't know that he could say anything differently, right? Because what he has to do is to establish two things. Number one, he has to establish that as Darren Wilson, the imminence of the threat that I felt that the threat was real that I feared for my life. And number two, that under those circumstances, Brooke, he acted reasonably. And that was what he told the grand jury and apparently that's what he said in the interview. A deviate from that becomes problematic. And so, if you're asking me, you know, am I surprised about those statements? No, I'm not.

BALDWIN: You're not hearing anything that's a wow.

JACKSON: No, because that's the legal standard, Brooke. The legal standard for that grand jury to consider is the imminence of the threat.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR/LEGAL ANALYST: Right.

JACKSON: The imminence was Michael Brown coming towards him at the time? And that he need to act in the way he did?

ROBBINS: Let's go even bigger. Let's Google earth this thing.

BALDWIN: OK.

ROBBINS: Because in the background, what else is going on that we know about, federal investigation. And in order for them to prove that he violated Michael Brown's constitutional rights, he has to -- they have to prove that he basically did those actions because of race.

And so, there is no way in hell he would ever go on an interview that he has prepped for and talk about and say anything other than I wouldn't do anything different and of course race didn't play a role in this.

Now, the one thing I would take a step back on as a former public defender in New York, seeing implicit bias all over the please, is the fact that the officer also testified to the grand jury and said that this particular neighborhood is a neighborhood where there are a lot of gangs and it's also a neighborhood where there is -- where it's not very police friendly.

BALDWIN: He had a preconceived notion going into --

ROBBINS: Correct. He even said that went into his state of mind. And so, he put it out there, right, almost like towards his defense.

JACKSON: Well, he had to. And that's important, Brooke, because the state of mind is at issue. What you examine is how he felt, what a reasonable police officer under reasonable circumstances have done the same thing that he did and so what he has to say is that he acted in a reasonable, responsible way. And to Mel's point, in the event that you're looking at a federal

claim, a civil rights violation, you have to show that he acted in a way that was malicious, in a way that was evil. That's a very high standard, very high standard. So if you don't have the evilness, you don't have the malice. You don't have maliciousness. You don't have a civil rights claim. And so again, I'm not surprised that he told George Stephanopoulos what he told him.

BALDWIN: Danny Cevallos, let me bring you in. I hear that you're plugged in and ready to join this conversation. And so, I guess my next question is, you know, there was this thought that there would be an announcement of his status in this interview with the Ferguson mayor. That didn't happen. You know, CNN had reported a couple of days ago that our sources are telling us there were talks of possible resignation. Do you think this man can ever work as a police officer anywhere ever again?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I mean, as long as there's no barrier to him working again. This may not be a job that he wants to continue to pursue. But in fact, my understanding is that for a practical standpoint, his pension may be vesting very soon.

So the idea, if he is cleared to return to work, we have to take a realistic view. I mean, this is a man who has spent most of his adult life in law enforcement. He's got a pension that is either about to vest or may be very close to vesting.

So, I mean, practically, will he return if he's allowed to return to work, I think he would. There's no reason not to. Will it be difficult? Well, that's more of a sociology question I really don't know. It would depend on the community of Ferguson, whether they would be willing to accept it. But, I would --

BALDWIN: You're shaking your head. Joey Jackson is doing this.

ROBBINS: Come on.

JACKSON: Yes. There's no way. And Danny, the only issue I have with that, he would be putting his safety at risk, without question, he's a marked man. And number two, the entire community would be in an uproar. Rightly or wrongly, there is the perception and, you know, people believe it to be a reality.

CEVALLOS: That part is right, Joey. That part is improperly. That part is right, but you have to ask the question -- I mean, he's been in law enforcement his entire life. If he's cleared to return to work, you know, does he give up the pension? I don't know that that's something that he can do.

ROBBINS: Well Danny, and you know, this is an interesting question because it's actually is representative of everything we're talking about in this case. There's a technical legal issue and then there's the bigger optics.

JACKSON: Right. ROBBINS: And the technical legal issue, at least for the grand jury,

they found no indictment. The bigger optics are the prosecutor blew it in every regard in terms of how they handled the entire process.

With this issue, there is a legitimate claim that this officer has, having been cleared by having there being no indictment of this wrongful death shooting, unless is he found to have violated his employment contract.

JACKSON: Or --

ROBBINS: He has a legal claim. And you represent unions. You know this. And the police union would probably support him in keeping his job. Now, that's the legal issue. Does he have a legal claim? But there's the optics issue.

JACKSON: Yes, there is. But there's another legal issue on top of that one now. And that is that there's a federal investigation that's continuing to rage on. And so, until the federal government has evaluated the grand jury testimony, has evaluated the evidence, has looked at the autopsies and the audiotapes and videotapes and everything else, you can't say that he's cleared and ready to move forward.

BALDWIN: Let me jump in because, speaking of the federal investigation, we just found out we'll be hearing from outgoing attorney general Eric Holder very soon.

So quick break, 90 seconds, back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: And once again, we've been looking at pictures here, protesters both in Atlanta, Morehouse College. They have been protesting in Atlanta, also in Baltimore, also in St. Louis here as, you know, many are waiting with anxiety. We've heard from a number of local business people, clergy, the mayor of Ferguson, you know, talking specifically about their worries and fears of what could come tonight.

Now, shortly after the Ferguson grand jury was announced last evening, we heard from the president of the United States. He made this impassioned yet very measured speech to the nation. Here's a piece of it.

So we don't have that. But he mentions specifically that this is an issue, it is broader issue for the nation. Of course, his thoughts and prayers are with both sides of the story but it's a bigger issue. And that's the bigger issue that I want o bring in with my next guest, Michael Skolnik, globalgrind.com editor-in-chief joining me here and also Rashid Abdul Salaam who has been in Missouri working with the police department for years and years and years before moving to Atlanta.

So gentlemen, welcome to both of you. Michael, let me just begin with you because, you know, you had these

pictures on the screen last night, right? So you see the president of the United States making his message and then you see the riots or the protests, right, the burning cars, the burning buildings. And you're saying, why is he taking questions? Why were you wondering that?

MICHAEL SKOLNIK, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, GLOBALGRIND.COM: I think it's a very difficult image for the president to speak last night during the moment when the announcement just made and folks are so angry and so impassioned to protests. And to see those images next to him, I don't think to say it was a good thing for him at that time. I don't think he should have taken questions. I think it was a very difficult time for the president to address the nation. Certainly, I --

BALDWIN: You wanted to hear from him, but --

SKOLNIK: Definitely. I think -- look. We knew it was going to be tense. And I was just there three days ago. We knew it was going to be tense and we certainly need the president to help us through this process and to help this country heals with a very difficult process. But at that moment, I put all the blame on the prosecutor Bob McCulloch for announcing it at 8:00 p.m. For what reason, give me one good reason at 8:00 p.m. you had to make the announcement. You couldn't wait until 8:00 a.m. in the morning? You knew it. You had the National Guard on deck. You had every police department there. You had FBI there. You knew you were going to see violence.

BALDWIN: So many people have wondered that, too. And we heard from our owned CNN reporting and talking to sources that state, they didn't want it at night, yet Bob McCulloch did indeed. And I don't have an explanation for you.

Rashid, let me bring you in. I mean, why -- having worked with cities, police departments why would that be beneficial having that decision at 8:00 local time?

RASHID ABDUL SALAAM, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR AND SECURITY SPECIALIST: It's not beneficial, obviously it isn't. And, you know, you have to scratch your head at sometimes when you look at the lawyers who get involved in these type of issues. Are they truly consulting the rank and file? Are they truly consulting the law enforcement officers that are out there faced with these confrontations? Obviously not, because he's somewhere in the rear with the gear, not having to deal with this.

But I will say this, Brooke. This incident has been going on since August. My challenge to the Ferguson black community, leadership community and surrounding St. Louis law enforcement community and citizens that are in positions of leadership, why don't we try to target 10, 15, 20 qualified black applicants and have them ready to go to the academy to change this. I have been saying this for months. I mean, you're lined up ready and prepping for these protests, a part of protests, the point of protests is change. So a part of the change is we have to try to influx and to get involved in these departments.

When I was a minority in the police department, in the sheriff's department, I effected change around me. There were certain conversations that some of my white officers, they could no longer have those conversations because I was president.

BALDWIN: I'm so glad you're making this point. This is exactly what I wanted to talk about with you and with you as well. Because, you know, when you look at, and it is not just Ferguson folks, I mean, this is across the country. People that those who are protecting and serving do not look like those who they are protecting and serving. And that is an issue.

Final thoughts to you, sir.

SKOLNIK: Yes. I think this me reminded that there is thousands of young people in Ferguson, St. Louis right now across this country, you are seeing your television who are exercising their First Amendment right for the same things that gentleman just talked about. They want change in this country. As the few who are looting and burning - and we condemn that. As much as we condemn the killing of Mike Brown on August 9, there are thousands united - millenials, lost forces, (INAUDIBLE) who have done an amazing job out there - every single day on the ground, fighting for the things we're talking about to change this country for the better.

BALDWIN: Michael Skolnik, let's keep the conversation going. The national conversation. Thank you very much.

SKOLNIK: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Rashid Abdul Salaam, you know I love talking to you, sir. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Quick break.

Oh, I believe Jake Tapper starts right now.