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Dr. Drew

Fallout of The Grand Jury Decision On The Streets Of Ferguson, Missouri; The Family Of Michael Brown Speaks Out; Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson Is Now Talking; The Governor Of Missouri Has Tripled The Number Of National Guard Troops Aiming To Head Off Another Night Of Fire, Chaos, Looting; Protesters, Sad, Anguished, Furious That Officer Darren Wilson Will Not Face Any Charges In The Killing Of Michael Brown; No Probable Cause Exists To File Any Charge Against Officer Wilson

Aired November 25, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW (voice-over): Tonight, fallout in the Grand Jury decision on the streets of Ferguson,

Missouri. The family of Michael Brown speaks out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: We object publicly and loudly as we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: But as anger and outrage turn to violence and looting, we ask, does this solve anything? Let us get started.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host is Samantha, and coming up, the officer, who fired the fatal shots breaks his silence.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HLN CO-HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL": That is right, Dr. Drew. So, Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson is now talking. And,

we will hear what he has to say about what happened during that day last August. And, what went through his head during that fatal shooting.

PINSKY: Yes. He was really forthcoming in the interview. And, there is a lot of information, if factual, it is in fact corroborated by the

evidence, helps to understand what went down that night.

But, first up, they are bracing for more violence in Ferguson, Missouri. The governor has tripled the number of National Guard Troops

aiming to head off another night of fire, chaos, looting. How did we get here? Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY (voice-over): The day after. Stores and lively hoods, people`s dreams destroyed, looted, trashed and torched.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT MCCULLOCH, PROSECUTOR OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY: No probable cause exists to file any charge against Officer Wilson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): Protesters, sad, anguished, furious that Officer Darren Wilson will not face any charges in the killing of Michael

Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON M. BELMAR, CHIEF POLICE, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: I did not see a lot of peaceful protests out there tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): Unrest spilled over into destruction. The crowd grew more reckless; destroying police cars, even setting them on

fire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: You should have seen this coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): At one point, we began filming these men with bricks in their hands. Then we too were attacked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: We definitely have done something here that is going to impact our community for a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar from Anahitalive.com, Vanessa Barnett from hip Hollywood.com, Evy Pompouras, Law Enforcement

Analyst former special agent secret service. I also have CNN`s Correspondent, Stephanie Elam, who is in Ferguson, presently. Stephanie,

what is going on in that town right now?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Drew, a much different scene out here tonight than what we saw last night. I just want to show you. I

will move out the shots, so you can see here. That bus brought in about 50 or so members of the National Guard and they are armed and they are out

here on West Florissant.

This is where we were last night, as well. And, it was completely different. There was mayhem, chaos, for a while there, for a good 30

minutes while we were out here last night --

PINSKY: Stephanie.

ELAM: -- it did not seem like there was any law enforcement where we were. They were here and they left --

PINSKY: Stephanie --

ELAM: Yes.

PINSKY: Should the National Guard have been called out sooner? Where were they last night?

ELAM: That is the question that everyone would like to know the answer to, Dr. Drew. There was really a time here where it felt like it

was just a lack of control on any side and they are out here early tonight. And, the street is closed off. You cannot drive down it, other than just

police cruisers that we see going down.

So, a very different scene out here, where you saw businesses burning. You saw vandalism. You saw looting last night. There was no one

really controlling the scene for a good part of the time that we were here. And, Dr. Drew, I was out here all night last night. And, it took a few

hours until things calmed down.

SCHACHER: And, Stephanie, what is the narrative on the ground there? When you talk to some of the members of the community, are they hopeful?

Do they feel defeated?

ELAM: Defeated would not be the word, but people are disappointed. You know, people have lived here. They are from here. These are

businesses. There are jobs that were attacked in their own community. So, people are disappointed about this on one end.

But, they are also really disappointed that officer Darren Wilson did not face charges. That he was not at least going to go to trial for the

death of Mike Brown. So, there is a feeling here that many lives in this community, that young black men do not matter.

And, there was a lot of anger about that. And, I talked to people out here last night, who expressed that sentiment. So, there is fatigue on

multiple levels here but definitely as far as security, it feels very different out here tonight.

PINSKY: Thank you, Stephanie. Now, as Sam pointed out, Officer Darren Wilson gave his first interview to ABC News. He met with George

Stephanopoulos in a secret location. Have a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE OFFICER WHO SHOT MICHAEL BROWN: I gave myself another mental check, you know, can I shoot this guy? You know,

legally can I? And, the question I answered myself was," I have to. If I do not, he will kill me if he gets to me."

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST: Even though he is 35, 40 feet away?

WILSON: Once he is coming that direction, if he has not stopped yet, when is he going to stop? After he is coming at me and I decided to shoot,

I fired a series of shots.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Evy does this seem a plausible to you, number one, and number two, I heard that as that whole situation unfolded, he eventually continued

shooting until Mr. Brown was 8 feet away and the shell canisters corroborate that distance. Does this all seem truthful to you?

EVY POMPOURAS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, it does. And, actually -- it is, basically, what we have been hearing from the beginning. And,

the scenario that I have been, you know, discussing with you all as far as the use of force policy. Somebody does not necessarily have to have a

weapon in their hands for you to use deadly forceful.

And, then, so if the threat is coming at you at a distance of 35 feet, if somebody is charging at you, within seconds they can close that

distance. And, the danger zone for an officer is 7 feet. Most shoot-outs actually take place within the 7 to 9 foot range. So, that is a deadly

area.

You do not want to close that distance. Police officers, they are not trained to get into hand to hand combat with you, not on that level.

He is already been struck in the face as he stated. He is already had the individual go for his weapon. All right?

He shot rounds in the car. So, you have all these scenarios. Plus, this individual is wanted for a strong armed robbery. All of these

collectively together leads to you believe that you are in imminent danger.

Again, Michael Brown was also a very large individual, as well. So, he has to stop and think, can I fight this man? If we fight, am I going to

lose? Am I going to win? If I lose, not only do I go down, he could take my gun and he could kill me.

PINSKY: Now, take a look at this video. Now, Mike Brown`s mother. As she heard the news that Officer Wilson would not be indicted. You will

also see her husband, this is Mike Brown`s stepfather, try to comfort her but then his anger becomes evident.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: YELLING

(INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, Vanessa, in spite of the sort of rational analysis that Evy given out, you and I have talked about this. You can relate to that

kind of anger.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I definitely understand. His son was taken from him. He is in the middle of this situation, which is

already completely out of control. There is no justice. We cannot see justice being served in the immediate future and he is angry.

And, I am not going to condone what he said, but I am also not going to hold this one moment against him. He is enraged and he has every right

to be. And, I do not believe that he really wants everyone to burn his city down. I think that was just one singular moment that we cannot take

and write the entire story for this man.

PINSKY: And, Anahita, I know you have been sitting by quietly --

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

PINSKY: -- and, I also read your tweet last night where you disagree with a lot of our analysis, so have at it.

SEDAGHATFAR: I do. Yes. I mean first, Dr. Drew, my heart, definitely, goes out to the Brown family because they lost a son at the end

of the day regardless of what you think actually happened here. So, let me just say that right off the bat.

But when people are out on the streets and they are demanding justice be served, justice be served. I am not quite understanding what they mean

by that. Justice is not those grand jurors voting the way you may have wanted them to vote or the way I may have wanted them to vote.

Justice is those jurors sitting in the courtroom, listening to the facts, listening to the evidence, deliberating and reaching a verdict and

that is exactly what they did, and we have to respect that.

PINSKY: All right. Next up, we are going to look at what role social media is playing in the behavior of the protesters. Plus, we will talk

live, a CNN Eye reporter. A first handy cam from the streets in Ferguson right now tonight. And, later, celebrities sounding off, what they are

saying about the Grand Jury Decision and the violence, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: The Ferguson police set the tone for what they are experiencing right now in those streets.

POMPOURAS: Not everybody listens to police. Not everybody complies. Not everybody is peaceful. There are some people that no matter what, no

matter what verdict you would have, they are going to riot any way.

BARNETT: Let us really get in there and talk about racial issues. We cannot be scared. And, it does not make us racists. It does not make us

insensitive. It makes us want to push ahead and grow.

POMPOURAS: These young men, this community, the next day they should go and they should apply to being in the police department. You want

change. Change it from within. Do not burn. Do not do these things. Be part of the solution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam. More than 3 million of you lit up Twitter last night as Ferguson was erupting in violence. And, in fact,

tonight, around the country, we are keeping an eye on demonstrations in Atlanta, New York, Boston, Los Angeles, and we will give you live footage

of that as it comes in. Now, here in Los Angeles last night, it was crazy. I tried to get across town to get to the airport.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: I have never seen so many highway patrol and so people on alert. People are on edge.

SCHACHER: Absolutely.

PINSKY: It is affecting people.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: All right. Let us bring in the behavior bureau. Crystal Wright. She is from conservativeblackchick.com; Vanessa Barnett, back with

-- we also have Wendy Walsh, Psychologist, author of "30-Day Love Detox." Sam, let us see some of the tweets.

SCHACHER: A lot of influence and reaction on social media, Dr. Drew. So, I have seen a number of tweets. "Come to Kiener Plaza, right now. We

are about to take action." Another one, "Shut the highway down peacefully. I-44." Another one, "Protest today at 3:00 P.M. in South L.A. Come

support." "If you are burning down a business, you are not hurting the police or corporations. You are hurting your community members." And,

then finally, "While I agree that violence will not fix violence, being peaceful did nothing and history cannot be made by being silent."

PINSKY: Crystal, it is good to have you back. Thank you for joining us. And, it is sort of an auspicious occasion. I am glad you decided to -

- we want your thoughts. What do you tell people that are out there on the streets tonight?

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I do not believe that violence is the answer, but I think that a lot of the tweets that Samantha was reading

and the ones that I witnessed last night were really reprehensible, laced with a lot of violent language.

I had violence hurled at me. Several people did not like what I was tweeting about the Grand Jury`s decision. And, they said, you know, turn

on the location on your phone, B-I-T-C-H, because we want to come find you and harm you.

Now, I have -- so, you know, what really bothers me about this whole thing, Dr. Drew, is that you have predominantly black Americans in

Ferguson. On the one, hand, they were upset that Michael Brown was killed in a violent manner. And, yet they are wreaking violence on the very

community that they live in.

And, I just think, it is a sad day for black America. I think it is a disgrace and I think Twitter further reinforces, really the shame I feel

as a black American with the way that they, that many people in Ferguson, they do not like the justice that was served up, which was justice in my

opinion was -- you know, the Grand Jury folks did a job that they were supposed to do. They reviewed the evidence.

It was not the justice that the some people wanted, but justice was indeed served. And, I would urge people not to, you know, not to met out

violence with violence, right? They were upset that Michael Brown`s life was stopped way too early. We all agreed with that. Way too tragically.

But why then go out and wreak the same violence and hatred on innocent people? It just makes no sense to me. And, I think that we

really need to hold people personally accountable. Stay indoors. Why should the National Guard to have bring 2,200 troops to the little town of

Ferguson? It is shameful. It is a disgrace.

PINSKY: Vanessa, you disagree.

BARNETT: First and foremost, I never feel shame as a black person. I do not feel like their actions describe who I am. I do feel like there are

hundreds of people there that are protesting peacefully and changes will be made. And, history has shown that peaceful protest does work from time to

time.

So, I do not understand that tweet. I do not understand saying you feel shameful as a black person. What I will say is that, of course,

violence is not the answer. We all know that. But, there are idiots of every race, every creed, every gender.

And, so in this instance, yes, the media is showing that people are ruining their own community, but that is not the only message here. And,

they are not just mad about Mike Brown. They are mad about every other faceless, nameless black man who has been gun down in the middle of the

street. And, so, yes, we are angry. And, yes, this is almost over the top anger because it is not just this moment.

We are trying to have our voices heard from generations and decades of this kind of violence, not being put on the main stream and we feeling

devalued as a people. This is just not this instance. And, those rioters and those looters do not tell the story for every person that is out there.

PINSKY: Wendy, you have interracial children --

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.

PINSKY: -- Do you talk to your kids about police?

WALSH: Well, I do, but it is not because of their race. I think every mother needs to teach children --

PINSKY: But what do you tell them?

PINSKY: -- to be very polite to police officers because they deserve our respect if --

PINSKY: Well, hold on, Wendy. Hold on. Are you concerned, Crystal of the parents that tell the kids, "Stay away from the police. They are

going on kill. They are going to get you. They got it out for you. And, just look at the data. Look at Ferguson. Look at what happened."

WRIGHT: Right. Dr. Drew, I grew up in the south. My home town is Richmond, Virginia, where I am spending Thanksgiving with my family. My

parents told me and my two brothers as young black people, there was a greater chance that we might be profiled in situations and we should always

be polite to police.

So, yes. Profiling does occur. But, the problem I have with this is like what Wendy said. You know, you have to be polite to police officers.

They are in a position of authority. And, if you taunt a police officer and give him an attitude and certainly lunge at them, you can expect to be

shot. That is the reality.

And, I think what bothers me about Vanessa`s comment is what violence is she talking about? What I think is really interesting when we had this

conversation with Trayvon Martin, Dr. Drew, when I was on your show then, and we are having a misguided conversation with Michael Brown now. All of

a sudden, what kind of violence is Vanessa talking about? Most black men -

WALSH: I want to defend Vanessa, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: OK. Wendy, go ahead.

BARNETT: Multiple black men that have died at the hands of white officers. Do you need me to run down a list? --

WALSH: Vanessa?

BARNETT: There are Shawn Bell. There are Trayvon Martin. There are multiple names.

WRIGHT: Excuse me, Vanessa.

PINSKY: Hold on. Crystal, hang on--

BARNETT: What do you mean you do not understand?

PINSKY: I cannot hear Crystal. Hang on, Vanessa. Crystal, what is that?

WRIGHT: Let me finish what I was saying. Vanessa is wrong and this is why you have people rioting in Ferguson --

PINSKY: Why is she wrong?

WRIGHT: OK. Well, if I can finish. Most black men are killed by other black men in cities like Detroit, Chicago. This is not an epidemic

of white police officers killing black men. I am so tired -- this is why you have people rioting in Ferguson. And, this is why Al Sharpton jumps

every time and Benjamin Crump.

It is tragic what happened to Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. They are not the norm. And, why are not we talk about the 76 police officers

who were killed in the line of duty last year? Oh, I know. Because that is not some false sensational story that anybody would care about.

We are doing a disservice to race relations in this country as my good friend Ron Christy wrote about today in the Daily Beast by continuing

to perpetuate these lies. This is not Selma, Alabama.

This is not a time where my parents sat at lunch counters and were called the "N" word with impunity. And, in 1965 in Selma, Alabama when

blacks were lynched, plugged with --

BARNETT: And, this is where you are misguided.

WALSH: Well, this is a different time.

BARNETT: I got called "N" word on Twitter. And, you are complaining because people want to you turn on your GPS. No. But, I choose not to

focus on that thing. But because black men kill black men --

PINSKY: Who called you that? --

BARNETT: -- we are not able to be mad that a white officer has killed --

PINSKY: Wait. A cop?

BARNETT: -- a black man in the middle of the street.

PINSKY: Vanessa, who called you that?

BARNETT: On Twitter, but it makes no never mind because that is not what I want to discuss. I want to discuss the fact that this is not

something that we made up. White men in police uniforms have been documented to have racial profiling. They have a rational fear of black

men.

PINSKY: I got to say -- But, then Vanessa -- hang on.

BARNETT: And, they have -- black men have been murdered in the middle of the street.

PINSKY: I told you -- Last night, I was terribly treated by an African-American police officer at daily L.A.X. Airport. I mean, to the

point where if I had done anything other than get -- do exactly what he said, if I had come towards him, he would have assaulted me. Now, if I had

gone at him, he would have shot me. No doubt in my mind. No doubt in my mind. And, I was doing nothing. I was staying in the white zone --

SCHACHER: But do not you think, Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: At an airport.

SCHACHER: But, do not you think, Dr. Drew, that this happens so much more to black African --

PINSKY: I do not know.

SCHACHER: -- to African-American males.

BARNETT: Yes.

PINSKY: But I did not --

BARNETT: We act like this is not a problem that we are doing a really good service.

PINSKY: I did not think -- I did not think black officers are a problem. I thought that guy is really worked up, tonight. And, good thing

I have my wits about me because he was really upsetting me and really mistreating me. And, I got my car drove off.

SCHACHER: So, should police officers be so quick to act with lethal force? Can we agree on that, Crystal? Can we agree that there needs to be

reform within the police department?

PINKSY: I think -- let me just say. I think -- Crystal, I think you would hear this. In a national standard of officer conduct --

WALSH: Conduct.

PINSKY: -- conduct. Yes. --

WALSH: Yes.

PINSKY: I think that, you know, again, we are so lucky here in Los Angeles where lethal force is the last thing people try. It is rubber

bullets and bean bags and canines and low speed and high speed chases.

WALSH: Yes, but it still happened.

PINSKY: It still happens, but I think that should be some sort of a standard. I have to move, ladies. I have to get to the next thing.

Police response to the officer is due enough to keep people safe in Ferguson. That is the question.

Later, a divide between citizens and police, will Ferguson, in fact, change anything. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCULLOCH: The Grand Jury deliberated over two days. They determined that no probable cause exists to file any charge against Officer Wilson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): Ferguson on fire after no indictment of Officer Darren Wilson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN JOURNALIST: Do you think officials in Ferguson were prepared for what happened last night?

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Obviously not. I mean the evidence on your television screen demonstrates they were not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): As many as dozen buildings torched in the worst conflicts to date as outrage ran through the streets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: You have every right to protest. You have every right to scream. You have every right to yell. The first time you throw something

at a police officer, you get hand cuffed, arrested and taken away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam. And, that of course is former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. He had some harsh words for Missouri State Law

Enforcement Officials responsible for keeping Ferguson safe. And, Sam, Giuliani ran the biggest state of the country, and he had a pretty good

track record.

SCHACHER: Yes. That is right. He was mayor of New York City from 1994 to 2001. Of course, he was widely credited for reducing violent crime

in the city. Let us not forget, he was the mayor during September 11th, that a lot of people hailed his leadership during the September 11th

attacks. And, then also Oprah Winfrey even dubbed him America`s mayor during a 9/11 memorial.

PINSKY: He was hard core. I mean he cleaned up New York.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: And, this is sort of more of evidence in what he saw came out. Let us bring in our panel. Karamo Brown host of #Ownshow in

Oprah.com, Evy Pompouras back with us for this segment, Danine Manette, Criminal Investigator, Author of "The Ultimate Betrayal." Now, Evy, lots

of criticism levied at officials. One of the things that has sort of caught people was, why wait until 8:00 at night, nighttime, when things can

run amok to release the grand jury report?

POMPOURAS: Look. I do not think nighttime is the best time to do this because, obviously, at nighttime you are going to have more criminal

activity. However, in speaking to some of my sources, the assumption seems to be that, that they wanted to get this information out there as quickly

as possible because ironically, they have been criticized for their lack of transparency and timeliness.

So, they did not want to hold on to it overnight and present at the time next day. So, they were trying to do the right thing. That is some

of what my sources are saying and the assumptions that they are making.

PINSKY: We are, actually, looking at footage alongside of Evy there in Los Angeles, where there are peaceful demonstrations. So, far most of

the demonstrations feel disruptive but fairly peaceable. Danine, I saw you are shaking your head already with Evy was saying.

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Because, you know, as I said before, Ferguson Police Department set the tone for this mess that is going

on now. I understand, you know, I guess that they wanted to get this out early last night, but that does not make any sense. They did not do

anything early in this investigation.

SCHACHER: Right.

MANETTE: They did not pick up his body off the ground early. They did not interview the witnesses that had information early. They let them

go out and talk to other people and have their testimony, you know, not be effective and not be accurate because, you know, they were taking their

sweet time getting everything done.

They did not do anything early. So, I do not understand why they did not just wait until this morning. They had already closed the schools

down. They could have waited until morning and had all day in the daylight to deal with this situation rather than the middle of the night and causing

this chaos.

PINSKY: Well, here is some evidence of some of the chaos. Evy shared some video with us that was given to her from a source in Ferguson. This

was shot about 3:00 A.M. local time. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: 3110. 3110 and if could you assist. 3108. Subject is in street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Evy?

POMPOURAS: You know, Dr. Drew. I want to say something because I have been sitting and I have been listening to everybody`s sides. And, I

want to speak on behalf of law enforcement in respect to what has been going on. I do not think anybody really understands what it means to be in

law enforcement.

I hear -- you know, I heard Vanessa in the last block talking about, you know, that she is a black female and what it is like. Well, you know

what? I want to talk about what it is like for law enforcement and the sacrifices that they are making and the choices they have to make.

Nobody on that panel or perhaps even this panel understands what that means. And, so, everybody Monday morning quarterbacks everything. I get

what Danine is saying. But, Danine, if they had waited until tomorrow morning to release this footage, you know what? Somebody else would have

been sitting in that seat, maybe not you, criticizing the Ferguson Police Department, the St. Louis County for what they are doing. They cannot do

anything right at this point.

PINSKY: Danine.

MANETTE: OK.

POMPOURAS: And, it is getting to the point where it is ridiculous.

MANETTE: First of all, my husband is law enforcement and I started off in law enforcement for six years. I absolutely know law enforcement.

That is an assumption that you have made that is incorrect. I am saying that everybody has an opportunity to look back and reflect on decisions

that they have made. And, I think that this particular department has a history of making poor decisions when it comes to this particular

situation.

They are a small department. They have a lot of room that they need to grow. They need to be more inclusive. They need to do more community

policing. They need to do a lot of things differently. I think that there is room for evaluation and not just take a card blank just complete.

Overall, yes, they did everything right and not look at it more, you know, intensively, they can do differently --

PINSKY: Yes. I think most people, Danine, would agree. Karamo --

POMPOURAS: No. But, you said that they have not done anything right. That is the thing. No one has said they have done anything right at all.

All anyone has done is criticized the law enforcement community, period. And, I did not make the assumption about you, Danine. I know you are a

criminal investigator. I did not know your status. All I am saying that this is so one sided and it is just not right.

PINSKY: All right. Karamo, you have been sitting quietly.

KARAMO BROWN, TELEVISION HOST: Well, because my heart is hurting about this, like I am listening to Evy talk. And, Evy, I have family

members that are in the law enforcement and at this point I just cannot empathize. Ferguson Police Department has done everything wrong in this

entire case, from beginning to end.

There are police officers who I am friend here within L.A., who do it right every single day and I know that they put their life on the line.

But, these officers have done something heinous. This officer has committed a crime. What he has done is horrible. There is a person that

is dead. A child that is dead. A child that reminds me of my sons. Every single day, a child that reminds me of me.

And, so, there is so much fury and hurt and pain that I have right now, that I am sorry, I cannot think about anyone else. Especially, I am

well versed on our country`s history. And, so a lot of times when we talk about the police, all this does is remind me of the things that my father

told me that he went through. That my grandfather told me he went through and so on and so on.

PINSKY: And, I have to interrupt. I have to go break. And, I think that is a pretty loaded statement, Karamo. That may be more important than

anything, which is the intergenerational transmission of the anger and the frustration and the trauma.

Next up, public confidence in police. What can be done to bridge that divide between the police and the people as Evy was referring to.

And, later, do you think the St Louis County Grand Jury made the right decision? You can go to hlntv.com. Click on our show page. Tell us

what you think. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCIS SLAY, MAYOR OF ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI: My message to the protesters. We will protect your right to peacefully assemble, but turning

violent or damaging property will not be tolerated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): Live on air.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: We are getting gas right now.

PINSKY (voice-over): Gas shot around reporters, forcing the crowds to flee.

JON BELMAR, POLICE CHIEF, ST. LOUIS COUNTY: Unfortunately, this spun out of control.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Hurting others or destroying property is not the answer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: We now have continued protests during the day here. Protesters goes in Atlanta, Morehouse College. They have

been protesting in Atlanta, also in Baltimore, also in St. Louis here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam and our panel. We are joined by Spirit, Psychotherapist, Talk Show Host. Wendy and Crystal are back with us. How

do we prevent the violence and chaos that unfolded last night in Ferguson and moved towards, not just peaceful protests like we saw in Boston but

effective change. Crystal?

WRIGHT: Well, black Americans cannot distrust every white police officer. That is one way to build trust. And, I think a second one in

Ferguson is, there is a problem that the 53-person police force is predominantly white.

I think the police force in Ferguson, the police chief, they need to ask themselves, how can we market to minorities better that are not change

the test or anything, but market more to minorities to recruit more people of color in Ferguson, which will help build trust. The trust is a two-way

street.

PINSKY: Do you agree with that? Is there more that needs to be done?

SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/T.V. HOST: You know, I agree absolutely, but this cannot just be about black and white. And, we have to

be careful in any community who we make our martyrs. This case cannot be all about an innocent black man who gets killed by a white officer and that

is it, end of story.

We have to stop compartmentalizing and making everything so simplistic because we miss it. We are doing a disservice not just to black

America, not just to white America, not just to law enforcement but to ourselves as a nation. We are continuously dividing ourselves and we are

not being real what the issues are.

PINSKY: So, Wendy, how do we do that?

WALSH: Well, we do it by what these women have already said; creating a better dialogue between community and law enforcement, integrating both

the community watch kind of people and the law enforcement. That means hiring a more diverse group of officers.

But at the same time, really, instead of governing or having enforcement over the community, actually talking with the community about

what their needs are. Remember the olden days, cops would walk their beat and they knew the store owners and they knew the neighborhood people?

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: Right.

WALSH: Now, most cops live miles outside of the place that they actually, you know, --

PINSKY: Serve.

WALSH: -- enforce.

PINSKY: Yes.

WALSH: So, I think it is important that the relationships between families, communities, shop owners, and law enforcement become more

integrated.

SCHACHER: Right. You know, I agree. But Dr. Drew, we were talking during the break about this. And, this got brought up with Vanessa about

this residual hurt and resentment and pain.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Yes.

SCHACHER: So, how do we tackle that?

PINSKY: Well, I am going to ask Crystal and Spirit that because -- I am glad you asked that question, Sam. Because it is that residual effect

of our history that, Crystal, I would dare say, it is transmitted intergenerationally.

And, how do we put it -- you know, reasonably so. I mean that is how trauma is transmitted. It is intergenerationally. How do we address that?

-- No? You are smiling? You say no?

WRIGHT: Dr. Drew, you know, it really troubles me when we make these sweeping statements about our history. My history is different than your

history. I do not feel the pain of Harriet Tubman because I did not grow up during slavery.

SCHACHER: But some people do, though, Crystal. But, some people do. There is a lot of pain out there.

WALSH: Yes, but that has to do what your parents told you and how your parents treated you.

PINSKY: Right.

SCHACHER: So, how do we fix that?

PINSKY: Hang on. Spirit, go ahead -- I mean, excuse me. I am talking to Crystal. Crystal first then Spirit.

WRIGHT: Let me wrap this up real quick here.

PINSKY: Please.

WRIGHT: Again, I think it is funny that all of you are you telling me right now what my history should be. That is the problem. And, when we

talk about black Americans, I think we just heard earlier. I am sorry I forgot the other guest`s name.

PINSKY: Sure. Wendy?

WRIGHT: The other black woman who is just talking before me.

PINSKY: Spirit. Spirit.

WRIGHT: We have to have an authentic conversation about race. And, what bothers me about this whole narrative, our history. Our histories are

not the same. And, when we talk about black Americans, we make all these excuses when violence occurs in the name of peace and justice. Now, it is

wrong. OK? Period.

And, we need to have an honest discussion about race and stop deflecting when the majority of black people act in my opinion like violent

animals. I think we need to have a discussion as to why that happen. They are not doing it because of pain some 200 years ago. Let us get off that.

That is the biggest --

SPIRIT: Well, see, Crystal, lost me when she got to that point.

PINSKY: OK. Spirit, go ahead.

CLANTON: You had me up until that point but as soon as you said the majority of black Americans. That is not the majority. And, you are doing

exactly the same thing that other people who are like them to be divisive in a situation are doing as well. I will agree that our histories are not

the same. I do not know Crystal any better than I know Dr. Drew, but that is not the point here.

The point is, when we want to start having real conversations and stop making one person representative for an entire group of people that

should look like them but have no understanding as to who they are because we come from different places. Our experiences are different. We have to

stop grouping everybody. When are we going to get past that?

SCHACHER: Right.

WALSH: Dr. Drew.

WRIGHT: We are not getting pass that with Ferguson because everybody is painting his broad brush that black men are being killed with impunity

by white cops --

CLANTON: Yes, but you just painted a very broad brush too when you said what all of black America is doing. Now, you have to be careful about

your language. The language is the beginning of the divisiveness. We all do. And, when you are on, when our a program --

PINSKY: OK.

CLANTON: -- representing a group of people -

PINSKY: Guys --

CLANTON: -- and not speaking as yourself, yes you do have to be careful.

WRIGHT: I am not representing anybody but myself.

CLANTON: OK. I hear you. Wendy, I am sorry. I have to go. I am going to get some reactions again through social media and some of the

celebrities` special media post getting a lot of attention. We are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCULLOCH: Within minutes, various accounts of the incident began appearing on social media. Accounts filled with speculation and little if

any solid accurate information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)\

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Danine, Spirit and Anahita. That was the prosecutor slamming social media. Millions took to social media,

particularly Twitter to express, for the most part, outrage over the jury`s decision. Sam, tell us what Lebron James posted.

SCHACHER: OK. So, Lebron James, known as King James on Twitter, he posted this editorial cartoon. You can see it right there. Trayvon Martin

and Mike Brown. Quote, "As a society, how do we do better and stop things like this happening in time after time? I am so sorry to these families.

Violence is not the answer people. Retaliation is not the solution as well."

PINSKY: You have a bunch of other celebrity tweets.

SCHACHER: I have a number of tweets and collectively they all are pretty much saying the same thing. "Disappointment but advocating for

peaceful protests." Katy Perry, "Feeling stuck all the way over here in Sydney seeing the news just now. Sending my prayers to Ferguson and

praying for an equal America."

Pharrell Williams, "I am heart broken over the news of no indictment in Ferguson. Let us all pray for peace." And then, finally, Rosanne Barr

has an idea. She says, Ferguson, time to get busy. Citizens must run for office." As we have been all advocating for.

PINSKY: That is what we have been saying. That is what I think to do. Anahita, you are smirking a little bit there. What is going on?

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I am smirking because Dr. Drew, obviously, these celebrities have every right to tweet their feelings and their anger about

the verdict in this case. But, quite frankly, I think it is irresponsible for people like Lebron James and I think Reggie Bush also put out a tweet

that, "Justice was not served in this case because there was no indictment." And, they have so much influence over people.

And, I think that is sending the wrong message, because what they are suggesting to people is that there was no justice here even though the

Grand Jury decided that the facts, the evidence, the eyewitness` testimony, which by the way, the D.A. said two of those testimonies were from African-

American eyewitnesses. So, despite the fact that all of that physical evidence corroborated the officer`s version of events, justice was not

served because there was no indictment.

PINSKY: Danine, what do you say?

MANETTE: I have a problem with that cartoon. The only two things that I see in common between Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown is that they

were two young black males that lost their lives to gun violence.

I do not see those two situations at all comparable. I think that one of them was, you know, unjustly killed walking down the street, going

home, not bothering anybody. Minding his own business. And, I honestly believe the Grand Jury report in the other one.

PINSKY: In Mike Brown.

MANETTE: So, I do not see why those -- Yes, in Mike Brown. I do not see why those two are being put together. And, I think that, that is doing

to surface to the community as a whole.

WRIGHT: Right.

PINSKY: Spirit. I am going to give you a chance to respond. But, also, something Crystal said in the last block was that, you know, we

should dismiss the traumatized populations, the traumatic history. You cannot do that. It is not how humans work. Trauma to a population gets

transmitted through generations.

CLANTON: Absolutely. And, you have heard time and time again, history will repeat itself if we do not learn the lessons. So, no. I do

not take into account a lot of what it was that she said. Like I said, when you do the same thing as everybody else, when you paint a broad brush,

that creates dissension, it creates divisiveness.

We have to be responsible, especially those of us that have this microphone, this mega phone. We should be here to heal hearts, to teach

lessons. This is not about perpetuating anger and frustration, especially amongst disenfranchised people who do not have the same power as you do.

That is real nice for you to send those messages as you sit up with all your money in your nice safe house somewhere on the other side of the

country. It is dangerous to the other people that you pretend to care about when you do that.

PINSKY: All right.

CLANTON: Stop.

PINSKY: Speaking of the other side of the country. What you are looking at here is footage on this side of the country in Los Angeles.

Now, it is New York, I believe you are looking at. So, both sides, both coasts having what are seemingly peaceful demonstrations, and I hope they

stay that way.

And, next up, you will have the results of our poll. Do you think the St. Louis County Grand Jury made the right decision? We will let you

know after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Danine, Crystal and Anahita. Our poll tonight, do you think the St. Louis County Grand Jury made the correct

decision? Here now are those results. 75 percent of you say the right decision was made. 25 percent say no, they made the wrong decision.

Now, Crystal, it is interesting. I mean we are -- it is a self- selecting population from our viewership, to be sure. Twitter is another self-selecting population. And on Twitter, the majority people were

expressing outrage. Where do you think the average person falls in this?

WRIGHT: I think maybe the average person might fall somewhere in between those two spectrums, Twitter and the people actually reading

newspapers and taking in information about this tragedy, you know, in a more informed manner. Not just these crazy tweets. So, you know, I

believe, you know, I think your poll is probably more reflective of where people outside of Ferguson really stand on what happened.

PINSKY: Danine, do you agree?

MANETTE: Well, I think those expressing outrage about the decision of the Grand Jury are more vocal and more, you know, really animated and

really putting their opinions out there. And, I think the people that are supporting the Grand Jury`s decision are being more quiet.

As I go through my own Facebook page, I see 90 percent of the people expressing outrage about the decision and I do not see hardly anybody

supporting the police officer or the Grand Jury`s decision.

PINSKY: Anahita.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. I actually agree with Danine. I agree. I think those people that are more opposed to this decision are more vocal because

they are more angry at the situation. But I want to go back to this social media and the tweeting and these celebrities. And, we have seen a lot of

high profile individuals, Dr. Drew, that are also speaking out about this incident.

And, it seems like they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth because you will hear them say, "Be peaceful." "Let us not be violent."

"Let us not riot." Let us not, you know, go and break into these stores. But, at the same time, "This was an injustice and we cannot have this and

we need to get out on the streets."

MANETTE: Right.

SEDAGHATFAR: I just feel like a lot of this is just adding fuel to the fire and it is so irresponsible.

SCHACHER: But Anahita, here is the thing. There are two views here. There are two different perspectives. And, I think we just received a

tweet during the break where somebody was giving us a lot of accolades for presenting different perspectives and having great conversation and

hopefully evoking some change and some thought. So, I do not think by a celebrity advocating for peaceful protests and expressing their

disappointment is a negative thing at all. I think that represents one view point --

SEDAGHATFAR: It is just contradictory. I think it is contradictory because what I am saying is, if the idea is that these celebrities are

going out there to encourage people to be peaceful, to go out there and protest in a civil manner, yet at the same time, they are throwing out a

lot of this innuendo --

PINSKY: Right.

SEDAGHATFAR: -- and that adds fuel to the fire.

PINSKY: Hold on.

MANETTE: I do not agree with you.

PINSKY: OK. Hold on. Crystal, I am running out of time. But, this one thought I have is I think Anahita is right. I think we need to get

very clear that criminal behavior is criminal behavior. It is not civil disobedience.

Civil disobedience has a very specific logical course to it and we have to distinguish between those two things. I think we have lost that.

Civil disobedience about breaking laws are unjust. These are laws that are protecting businesses and criminals must be treated like criminals.

SCHACHER: No celebrities are advocating that.

PINSKY: I am just saying, you have to be clear about that.

SCHACHER: Of course. Of course.

PINSKY: Crystal, do you agree with me?

WRIGHT: A protester who exhibits what Martin Luther King Jr. wanted, which was peaceful, nonviolent protest --

SCHACHER: Of course.

PINSKY: And civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is just. We have to remember that, but this is not civil disobedience.

SEDAGHATFAR: They are not. Right.

PINSKY: This is civil disobedience unrest.

MANETTE: When your anger drowns out your message, then your message is lost.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: Crystal, last thought?

SCHACHER: We all agree on that. We all agree on that.

PINSKY: Crystal, I have 10 seconds, last thought.

WRIGHT: Yes. You know what? I could care less what celebrities say about Ferguson or anything of great importance and that is what the rest of

Americans should -- that is how the rest Americans should view celebrities. Stick to acting.

PINSKY: Keep the conversation going, everybody. It is very important. That is what our country is founded on. "Forensic Files",

next.

END