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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Grand Jury Does Not Indict Officer Wilson; Chaos in Ferguson; Obama Urges Calm in Wake of Ferguson Ruling

Aired November 25, 2014 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN ANCHOR: And EARLY START continues right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to EARLY START. I'm John Berman.

FEYERICK: And I'm Deborah Feyerick, in for Christine Romans. It is Tuesday, November 25th. It is 5:00 a.m. in the east. We want to thank our viewers across the country and around the world.

BERMAN: And we do begin with the breaking news coverage this morning -- what's going on on the streets of Ferguson, Missouri, right now. These are live pictures in the wake of the grand jury decision not to indict Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown. Still smoldering, still burning this morning after demonstrators set buildings and police cars on fire in the downtown area.

FEYERICK: And there was gunfire, rock throwing and looting throughout the night. Many protesters breaking store front windows with what appear to be bats. They were emptying shelves. Police made 29 arrests and seemed very disheartened by all the violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: I'm disappointed in this evening. I really don't have any hesitation in telling you that I didn't see a lot of peaceful protests out there tonight. And I'm disappointed about that. I'm not saying there were not folks out there for the right reason. I'm not saying that wasn't the case. But I am saying that, unfortunately, this spun out of control.

And, frankly, what I am seeing tonight and I have been here all evening right in the middle of it, along with Captain Johnson, what I have seen tonight is probably much worse than the worst night we ever had in August.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. Overnight, a temporary restriction for income flights for St. Louis was put into place. Also, a no-fly zone in the skies above Ferguson because of shots that were fired into the air, although the police chief in the area says none of the shots were fired by police officers.

I want to get right to Ferguson right now, I want to bring in NEW DAY anchor Chris Cuomo who I know was up so much of the night covering the events on the ground.

Chris, thank you so much for being with us.

First, give us a sense of how things are this morning at 5:00 Eastern Time. And walk us through what you saw.

CHRIS CUOMO, NEW DAY ANCHOR: Well, as you have been reporting correctly, John and Deb, there are buildings still on fire. We understand a dozen were lit in the blaze, mostly businesses, frankly. We hear word of one municipal building. Certainly others were destroyed or damaged. A lot of property damage here.

But it's early and it's cold. So, it's quiet. That will be good. This is a community that needs time while this was not about simply black versus white. This was not about huge hordes of marauding rioters. It doesn't take many people to start a really violent situation and that's what happened last night, John.

FEYERICK: And, you know, Chris, it was interesting, the police chief from St. Louis said that 150 shots were fired. Mostly at police officers and yet they did not fire back. It really is miraculous looking at pictures and looking at what you and Don Lemon were caught in the tear gas that nobody was seriously injured and nobody lost their life.

CUOMO: Well, you know, that's a very good point to make, Deb. You know, people keep likening what happened last night to the L.A. riots. Do not be mistaken about this. This is nothing like what the L.A. riots were.

The issues involved matter just as much. What has to be done for the community matters just as much. But you had 100 dead. You had hundreds and hundreds injured there.

There was nothing like that last night. And, look, hopefully that was the worst of it.

Gunfire -- what the police say, I can't vouch for their reporting. This was a very -- this was a very diffused situation. There were lots of different things going on and lots of different places. At one point, the police were reporting, no, we're only using smoke canisters, there is no tear gas.

That is 100 percent untrue. What was hitting us was definitely tear gas. Now, this isn't about deception. This is about communication and coordination.

Gunshots, we heard plenty of them. I did not see any from the officers. They were firing bean bag rounds into the crowd which are a less violent method of dispersing a crowd.

BERMAN: Chris, obviously, this is all from the decision from the grand jury not to indict Officer Darren Wilson. I'm not sure you had much time to take a look at some of the testimony, some of the transcripts that had been released from the grand jury hearings. You have been caught in the middle of the protests and demonstrations and this violence all night.

But we are learning new information really every hour now from what went on in there. I'm wondering what your reaction is, your legal mind making a look at this. It does seem that the grand jury was convinced by Officer Darren Wilson's testimony.

CUOMO: I think that is a fair appraisal, John. I mean, I have not pored over it yet. I haven't had time for any perusal. But really none of us had. There's so many volumes of testimony.

But here is what we do know. One, it was unanimous, OK? Grand juries don't work like a petit jury, like a regular trial jury. You have more people. That's why it's called a grand jury.

And it doesn't have to be unanimous. But this one, we're told, was. So, we know that.

We also know from the prosecutor that there was a lot of conflicting testimony. That is not unusual, especially with eyewitness testimony. Where what people say is inconsistent with other facts ascertainable. There seemed to have been a lot of that. So much so that I don't believe it's going backwards to have on one of the people who testified in front of the grand jury who believes she saw all of the pertinent parts of this -- meaning the shots that ended Michael Brown's life.

It is worth interviews people to understand what it was.

Darren Wilson testifying was the most glossed over part of the process. It is unusual. Usually I don't want your client or defendant in front of a grand jury because it is the prosecutor's show. But without question, he would have been the most impressive thing before the grand jury.

FEYERICK: There's no question about that. You know, the prosecutor was very clear. It is 12 men and women from the community. So, they had just as much interest in seeing the justice be served. But it's unethical for a prosecutor to bring the case if he believes he cannot get a conviction.

What's interesting is that so many of the protesters and demonstrators went after not only the police officers, but they went after community businesses themselves. And one captain basically said, you know, this is not the way you create jobs by destroying the dreams of small business owners.

There's a lot of conflict there from all sides.

CUOMO: I think that assumes a deliberateness that isn't in place once you are blinded with rage. I think -- you know, violence doesn't have a conscious, it's often been said. And in a community like this, I think you destroy what you see. It's wrong. It's illegal. It stands in contrast to what this outrage

is supposed to be about, which was a failure of justice, you know, is creating more injustice does not make that any better.

But, you know, look, the grand jury itself is a dinosaur, OK? There is no need for one. A prosecutor can have an open hearing. A prosecutor can make its own process. He or she can just bring charges.

In fact, the prosecutor could still bring charges even after the grand jury. One of the major complaints from sober minds here in Ferguson was that, listen, if this prosecutor wanted to bring the case, he would just have brought it himself. But this was punting, you heard the term punting, to put this on a grand jury.

Look, whatever the feelings us are about the process is now over. What this community has to deal within a very real and ongoing way is how it deals with the outcome of the situation.

FEYERICK: Yes, no question. You said five -- you said the grand jury was unanimous. Darren Wilson was facing five possible charges and they decided not to indict him on any of them.

Thanks, Chris. We'll see you at the top.

BERMAN: Yes, we look forward to see what you have on NEW DAY, an important show planned. That's in 53 minutes.

All right. Chris, thanks so much.

I want to bring in Eric Zahnd, a prosecuting attorney for Platt County in Missouri, very nearby.

Thank you so much for being on with us. I really appreciate your time.

I wonder if right off the bat I can ask you for your reaction to the grand jury decision. Does it make sense to you based on what you now have seen in the transcripts and testimony?

ERIC ZAHND, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY, PLATTE COUNTY, MISSOURI: Obviously none of us have had much time to look at the evidence as the grand jury did. From what we are hearing at this point, I think the grand jury decision makes sense. It's consistent with the forensic evidence we heard.

We heard from prosecutor McCulloch that they were various witnesses who were saying very different things about what the evidence showed. But I think what I hope people do will have trust in the system. I know that some people are disappointed in the outcome. I hope what they will do at least is trust that the system itself worked.

BERMAN: I think we have seen the evidence overnight that there are people who do not trust that the system worked. But let's leave that issue aside for a moment, what happened on the streets and let's continue to focus on the case at hand. Officer Darren Wilson did testify. This is not common in the grand

jury hearing. To hear from the case ultimately charged in the case. He testified he felt threatened.

I want to read you some of what he said in the transcript. He talked about being punched by Michael Brown, punched twice. And then he said, "I felt that another of the punches in my face could knock me out or worse. I've already taken two of the face, and I didn't think I would, the third one could be fatal if it hit me right."

Explain to me why the testimony here would have been so important. It gets to the issue of self defense. That Officer Darren Wilson thought he was being physically threatened, that his life was at risk by Michael Brown.

ZAHND: That's absolutely right. Assuming the grand jury believed that testimony, that would justify the use of deadly force by Officer Wilson.

FEYERICK: You know, and, sir, it is interesting as well because when you hear the officer describing Michael Brown, we hear him saying basically, he was trying -- it seemed as if he was trying to intimidate or stare me down or overpower me. He talks about Brown grabbing for the gun. He also says he felt like a 5-year-old holding Hulk Hogan, the big wrestler.

When you think Officer Wilson was the last person to really face Michael Brown. Talk to us about state of mind between the officer, but Michael Brown given the description of what appears to have been going on.

ZAHND: State of mind is very important in a case like this, because ultimately, what a grand jury is looking at and a petit jury if charges are brought was about a force used by this officer, reasonable given all of the circumstance. So, that includes the difference in these two men's sizes. What his state of mind was at the time. That is the key inquiry for the grand jury. Again, what I hope is while we know some people are very, very angry about this outcome, they will accept that the grand jury is truly the conscious of the community.

Bob McCulloch has taken a lot of criticism in this case. But he didn't make a decision here, 12 people on that grand jury made a decision.

(CROSSTALK)

FEYERICK: That's exactly -- yes, I think that's exactly the question that John and I want to follow-up on. And that, we heard Chris Cuomo saying the prosecutor could have brought charges independently. In fact, by using a grand jury, he punted. The D.A. has an ethical obligation to bring the cases in which he can get a conviction. Could the prosecutor right now say overrule the grand jury and say charges should be filed, first degree or second-degree, voluntary or involuntary manslaughter?

ZAHND: Theoretically that could happen, but that would be highly, highly irregular. If a grand jury is not convinced that 12 people could find probable cause, I find it very hard to believe a prosecutor could say that he believes that a jury of 12 would find beyond a reasonable doubt that Officer Wilson committed a crime. So, that would be very, very unusual. I don't think he could satisfy his ethical burden.

What he did satisfy the ethical burden on is this, that a grand jury can be used to investigate whether a crime occurred. That's exactly what this grand jury did. In the end, they found apparently unanimously, no crime had been committed.

BERMAN: Eric, I had a super quick question before we let you go. Do you think it was right to announce this decision after dark, at night, you know, after everything the community had been through?

ZAHND: You know, it's a very difficult question. Obviously, the timing was not completely within Prosecutor McCulloch's control. At the end of the day, that -- people were clamoring for information. And I just hope that at this point, while we had a night of violence, that going forward, people find peaceful ways to express their displeasure and hopefully we can come together and work on solutions so we're never standing here again discussing a case like this.

BERMAN: Let's hope. Eric Zahnd, thank you so much for being with us. We do appreciate your expertise and your perspective this morning. I appreciate you're waking up as well.

ZAHND: Good to be with you.

BERMAN: All right. Michael Brown's parents -- they are going to speak at a news conference at noon today. Brown's father is said to be devastated by the grand jury ruling. The family did release a statement shortly after the decision. This is the statement in its entirety. It says, "We are profoundly disappointed that the killer of our child will not face the consequence of his actions. While we understand that many others share our pain, we ask that you channel your frustration in ways that will make a positive change. We need to work together to fix the system that allowed to this happen."

FEYERICK: Yes, that's what everybody is focused on, the system and fixing that. Well, the grand jury decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson touched off a protest outside the White House. About 300 demonstrators closing down U Street as they marched peacefully toward Pennsylvania Avenue. Inside, President Obama was addressing the nation from the White House briefing room, calling for calm in Ferguson and also around the country.

We get more from White House correspondent Jim Acosta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: In a late night statement here at the White House, President Obama called for calm in Ferguson, Missouri, calling on people in that community to respect the wishes of Michael Brown's family. Brown's family saying in a statement earlier that they don't think that people should not lash out in violence in reaction to the decision reached by that grand jury in the case of Officer Darren Wilson.

The president going on to say that he does understand that racial discrimination does play a role in the application of justice in Ferguson, not only in Ferguson but around the country. But he said this is no time for violence.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Folks, we are a nation built on the rule of law. And so, we need to accept that this decision was the grand jury's to make. There are Americans who agree with it and there are Americans who are deeply disappointed, even angry.

ACOSTA: After a statement, I had a chance to ask the president whether or not he would personally go to Missouri and check the situation on the ground in Ferguson. He said he would have to take a look at that and see how things are going in that community. But he also at the same time called on the media to play a constructive role in reporting on this story, saying that they could fan the flames of violence in that very fragile community.

Jim Acosta, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: All right. Our thanks to Jim.

Our breaking news coverage of what's going on in Ferguson will continue in a moment. We have two dozen arrests to tell you about, buildings on fire this morning. We'll take you to the scene in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FEYERICK: And welcome back, everyone, to CNN's breaking coverage of the unrest in Ferguson.

Gunfire, looting, arson, all breaking out in the wake of a grand jury decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson for the shooting death of Michael Brown. Police confronting protesters with tear gas, making at least 29 arrests. Multiple shots fired by the demonstrators.

Prosecutor Robert McCulloch announced the grand jury decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT MCCULLOCH, ST. LOUIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR: After their exhaustive review of the evidence, the grand jury deliberated over two days, making their final decision. They determined that no probable cause exists to file any charge against Officer Wilson and returned a no true bill on each of the five indictments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: And Stephanie Elam live from Ferguson this morning.

Stephanie, you were out right in the middle of it. When you think back, what was the most striking thing to you about how events played out?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The most striking part for me, Deb, was when we were out there and we saw police retreating back to their vehicles and leaving. And there was about a good 30 minutes when we were standing out there and it was just mayhem.

No one seemed to be cracking down except for the few young people I saw trying to police people who were doing things. That struck me. It was very different than when I was here in August and the clashes that we saw between police and agitators at that time. It was very different energy than before. It definitely seem like police were not going to engage, and they were going to quell the situation as needed, but it was definitely not as aggressive as it was in August, Deb.

FEYERICK: When you look at the businesses that are burning and the thing that really sort of ripped the heart of this community as well, not just the feeling that justice was not served, but also the fact that many people wanting to make a life there now losing the very thing they built to maintain that.

Have you had a chance to speak to any of the business owners or were they sort of staying far away from the situation?

ELAM: There's one woman who was cleaning up her shop. I could hear her. She didn't want to board up her shop and she was in there cleaning up about it. Letting her mind be heard by any young people that were out there. She was very frustrated and upset. I could hear her sweeping up the broken glass in her shop.

But for the most part no, people weren't out there. And most of the shops where I was on West Florissant were boarded up in anticipation of this. And, you know, people -- a lot of people didn't think it would get to this point again. And then, you hear some people saying that last night was worse than anything we have seen in August, Deb.

FEYERICK: All right. Stephanie Elam, thanks so much.

BERMAN: We continue to see buildings burning this morning in and around Ferguson. We will continue our live coverage from the scene just ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Live pictures now from Ferguson, Missouri. You can see fire trucks going through the area right now. That's the town next to Ferguson, Dellwood, Missouri. That's one of the towns where we have seen buildings burning. At least 12 structures burning this morning. The fires still smoldering there and they are still dealing with the aftermath and will be, I think it is safe to say, both physical and emotional, for some time to come.

The fallout there needless to say has sparked protests and demonstrations around the country, including in New York City where protesters marched into Times Square. One person was arrested.

Our Miguel Marquez was in the middle of it all. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the scene here on the streets of Manhattan, this crowd which started at Union Square, about 40 blocks that way, has snaked through this city all the way to Times Square, and now up north of Times Square. We are moving up toward Central Park now.

You can see that they have taken over the city. It's about 1,000 strong now, perhaps more. It has grown in strength, grown more boisterous, more angry, as the night has gone on, and they have picked up people along the way. What is amazing is also, though, is that New York Police Department, NYPD, has tried to make way for these protesters all the way from Union Square to here -- much to their surprise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: And in Chicago, hundreds of protesters marched from Chicago police headquarters toward the city's loop as soon as the grand jury's decision got out. Police briefly closed some streets as they follow the demonstration. But around 11:00 p.m., they blocked protesters from moving any further. Protest leaders then encouraged the demonstrators to go home and reconvene in the morning.

BERMAN: All right. Just ahead, the sun will begin to rise in Ferguson in an hour or so. And we'll get a chance to assess the damage. We'll go live to the ground to see what's happening right now. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)