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Don Lemon Tonight
Anger in Fear in Ferguson; Officer Darren Wilson Breaks His Silence; Thanksgiving in Ferguson; Ferguson's Mayor Speaks Out; Protests in Los Angeles; Relatively Calm in Ferguson Tonight; Foul Words From Michael Brown's Parents
Aired November 26, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. You're looking at New York's upper west side where a Thanksgiving Eve tradition taking place right now, weather or not.
And the giant balloons for tomorrow's parade are being inflated. On a night when a fierce winter -- pre-winter storm is scuttling holiday plans up and down the East Coast. We'll tell you all about it.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you for joining us.
Tonight 30 million people from North Carolina to Maine, battling a big storm on one of the busiest travel days of the year. But I want to begin with Ferguson tonight.
Look at this live shot. This is in Ferguson. It says it all. "Seasons Greeting" in a community full of anger and fear. Just 24 hours after demonstrations swept this entire country.
Joining me now in the cold and snowy Ferguson, Missouri, is CNN's Jason Carroll.
Jason, you've been doing a yeoman's job there, covering the story. I'm wondering how the protests are tonight and what is going on? You're standing in front of the police department.
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I know you know this scene very well here, Don. Things seeming very calm compared to what we've seen out here before. You can see members of the National Guard, Missouri National Guard, standing here in front of the Ferguson Police Department.
The small number of protesters who were out here were initially across the street. They have now moved on this side of the street. Again, small number of protesters. Many of them shouting obscenities at these members of the National Guard. Members of the National Guard, standing here. Keeping things peaceful.
Again, it's still tense. You can hear some of the angry shouts coming from the protesters who are here. But it's nothing like what we saw here on Monday night and certainly not like what we saw out here last night.
Community leaders telling me tonight that they hope things remain peaceful. Perhaps, it's the weather that's keeping some of these protesters away. One of the protesters telling me, even though the numbers are small here tonight, he says that doesn't mean they're not going to show up here tomorrow night. The night after that. And continuing onward -- Don.
LEMON: Jason, as I look at your live shot there, I see the National Guard behind you, who is in charge? Is it the National Guard?
CARROLL: Well, right now we've got the National Guard taking the front line. Last night we were out here was members of the St. Louis County Police Department, they are still here as well. I am told that if things take a turn for the wrong direction, members of the St. Louis County Police will again take the lead and the National Guard will act in a supporting capacity. That's what I am being told.
LEMON: So, Jason, can you give us the latest on that church that burned down? The one where Michael Brown's father is a member. Give us an update on that.
CARROLL: Yes, that the Flood Christian Church, on West Florissant not too far from where we are right now. And basically what we're hearing is that Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is now leading that investigation. That church was burned. It was the church that Michael Brown's father attended. And the reason why this -- is suspicious is because when you look at that particular area, Don. There were no other business that were burned or looted. Except that one -- except that one church and that particular area. And so federal officials now want to know why -- Don.
LEMON: All right, Jason Carroll, in Ferguson, Missouri. Jason, thank you very much. Please stay safe. Happy Thanksgiving to you.
You know, Michael Brown's parents spoke to CNN today. The day after Officer Darren Wilson's interview with ABC News. And their views of what happened in Ferguson on August 9th very, very different.
So joining me now is Neil Bruntrager, he is -- and Greg Kloeppel, the attorneys for Darren Wilson.
Good evening, gentlemen. I appreciate you joining us on this Thanksgiving Eve. Thank you so much.
NEIL BRUNTRAGER, ATTORNEY FOR OFFICER DARREN WILSON: Thank you, Don.
GREG KLOEPPEL, ATTORNEY FOR OFFICER DARREN WILSON: Good evening, Don.
LEMON: So, Neil, I'll start with you. The parents of Michael Brown spoke to CNN today. They are of course still devastated by the loss of their son. And I want you to listen to what they told my colleague, Sunny Hostin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So many people in America have seen this surveillance video in the convenience store. And people are saying, your son was a punk. Your son was a thug. Your son was aggressive. Your son was violent. So he must have been aggressive with Officer Wilson. What do you say to that?
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: I say that you cannot judge him off of 18-second video. And we have known him for 18 years. We know better. I say no. You are wrong. And you cannot look at one image of a person and perceive who they are in a whole. Because if that's the case, let's look at the -- the other side with Darren Wilson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What is your response to that? Obviously a grieving mother. But what is your response, Neil?
BRUNTRAGER: Well, Don, how can you listen to that and not hear the anguish in that voice? And the one constant that she had throughout that was, your son, your son, your son. Those are the words that I heard.
No one on Darren's team and Darren himself is not condemning this young man. What happened was a tragedy. Everyone says it was a tragedy. Everyone wishes that this would not have happened. All you have to do is go down the streets and look at this town. Look at what this has done to the town and the region. Everyone wishes this had not happened.
And I say to her, as a parent, I feel for your loss. I do. That's the only thing I can say. There's nothing, Don, that I could say on behalf of Darren Wilson, that she -- that could possibly assuage her grief. And so I will leave it there and say I am sorry for your loss.
LEMON: Greg, I want to talk to you about the interview. Officer Darren Wilson broke his silence yesterday speaking to ABC News. I want you to listen to what he said about his interaction with Michael Brown. And then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OFFICER DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON, MISSOURI POLICE: I saw them walking in the middle of the street single file on the double yellow line. I've stopped in front of them. And let them walk up towards me.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: But you're still in the car.
WILSON: Yes, I never even put the car in park. I had it in drive. And as they walked up, I asked Dorian Johnson who's the first one to walk on the sidewalk. And his reply was, well, we're almost to our destination. And I said OK, well, what's wrong with the sidewalk. And then as he passed, he just kept walking, ignoring that. That's when Michael Brown came next. And he had exchanged some explicit words with me. He had said, what (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you have to say?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Greg, I have been -- Greg, I have been out there in Ferguson. I've been listening to people and some hear that, and they think back to Dorian Johnson, which is the witness, his account, and they see Officer Wilson said, you know, get the F off the sidewalk. It makes people wonder if Wilson is trying to revise the nature of which the way he approached those guys.
What do you make of that?
KLOEPPEL: I don't think he revised the nature of how he met those individuals.
Don, from day one, Darren Wilson's story has been consistent. I met with Darren Wilson approximately one hour after the fatal incident. What I do when I talk with my witness, I draw a line down the center of my paper. I took his statement down. Shortly thereafter, Officer Wilson was interviewed by a St. Louis County detective. Normally when the second interview goes, I keep that blank space of paper open so I can fill in the blanks or fill in what may have been missed.
Don, that statement has been consistent on one hour after the shooting, the following interview with St. Louis County detective, and August 10th when it was recorded at the St. Louis County.
LEMON: Yes. I'm glad you bring that up because many have said, well, you know, why didn't -- why wasn't that recorded? Why was he -- why is he just saying this months after? But what you're saying from the initial reports what he said to you and what he said to everyone else and to the grand jury and in the interview on ABC News, you believe it's been consistent now.
I know because I have met both of you. In that video of Darren Wilson going into the police station and leaving the police station, I see you coming in very shortly after him on that video. And then I see you walking out with him as well. So you were with him immediately following this and you're saying it's consistent.
KLOEPPEL: Don, that's correct. I was there, like I said, within an approximate one hour following the incident itself and since day one Officer Wilson's statement has remained consistent. And when you hear these individuals talking about he's had all these months to prepare, he's had months to prepare for the grand jury.
Darren Wilson was locked in from day one on his statement on what occurred on that day. And I think the forensic evidence, besides witnesses, and the grand jury agree with what occurred that day and Officer Wilson's statement.
(CROSSTALK)
BRUNTRAGER: And Don, let me throw in here. The other thing that you have to -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
LEMON: No, go ahead.
BRUNTRAGER: I was going to throw in here that the other thing you have to remember is that before he testified before the grand jury, he was also interviewed by the FBI and by people from the Justice Department. They came in and they gave him an exceedingly rigorous interview where they didn't leave any question unasked. There was no stone unturned.
And again, that statement was absolutely consistent with what he'd said on the 9th and the 10th. Then in front of the FBI and then in front of the grand jury. Every time someone in law enforcement has asked him to come forward he has come forward and he has been lockstep and solid with what he has said previously.
LEMON: Yes. I know that you guys have another appointment but I just -- if you give me just a little bit more time because I have a few more -- a few more questions for you.
BRUNTRAGER: Sure.
LEMON: And I promise you I will let you go. So it has been out there, now that Darren Wilson has married his fiancee who is with -- is also an officer in the police department that she is expecting. That they got married just a couple of weeks ago. But they have basically been in hiding and have had to move from their home since this has happened. And you -- I think it's your feeling that, and their feeling that they almost -- it feels like they have been in jail because they've had to hide from the public.
KLOEPPEL: Well, I don't know if you'd call it in jail but since day one our goal was to make sure his due process rights were protected and make sure he was safe.
Being a police officer, you are aware of your surroundings. Officer Wilson is now very heightened of his surroundings. So if you want to call it being in like you are in prison, that may be one analogy. But he is very aware of his surroundings. Even more so today than he was three months ago.
LEMON: He certainly doesn't have the ease to travel --
BRUNTRAGER: He does --
LEMON: -- about as he did before this all happened.
Go ahead, Neil.
BRUNTRAGER: No. He has had to learn to live in a way that makes him completely unnoticeable. And so as a consequence of that, you know, there are several techniques that he utilizes that make that happen. And it's a -- it's an odd way to live your life. But it's -- for him, for him, it's all about his family. It's all about safety.
You know when the news broke, one of the things that happened was some of the local media went to the house that they lived in. He literally, literally, had to leave that house within three hours. His front yard, he was cutting the grass when he found out. He had to leave the grass literally half mowed. And he had to go into hiding because there are death threats out against him. There are bounties that had been placed upon his life.
I hope that none of that is true. I hope that's just vitriol. But you have to take it seriously, Don. You have to. LEMON: OK.
BRUNTRAGER: And as a consequence for 100-plus days he's lived like that.
LEMON: Is he going to continue on with the police department? Because it has been said, it had been reported that he is negotiating his departure from the police department. He's on administrative leave now. Is he in fact doing that?
BRUNTRAGER: He is on paid leave right now. And there are discussions that are going forward with the department to separate from the department in an amicable fashion. We're talking about.
Realistically, Don, he can't go back to being a police officer, he knows that. There is no illusion about any of this. But it's the way in which he leaves. That's really important to him on a lot of different levels. But, but, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when.
LEMON: Is his legal fight over? I mean, does he have -- can he be tried civilly? Can the fed step in now? What's next for him legally?
KLOEPPEL: Well, obviously, I mean, there is a federal investigation ongoing at this point in time. So we have a civil rights charge potentially down the road. However, I think that's going to be very difficult to prove because on a civil rights violation you must prove that he intended to violate an individual's right. In this case, his life. A civil suit. We'll have to wait and see. But I would assume that's down the road.
BRUNTRAGER: And Don, the legal issues are probably the lesser issues at this point. He still has so many other issues that he has to deal with because of all this.
LEMON: I'm always very straight forward with you, guys. And I want to tell you that many people think that they hadn't heard from him. And so they were wondering about that and then that maybe there wasn't enough remorse shown or any remorse shown when he finally did speak.
Can you speak to that? How he feels about that? I know you can't speak for him. But what do you think?
BRUNTRAGER: Let me jump out there on this for just a minute, Don, because we have talked to him about this and he has spoken about this. You know, his remorse and his sadness about what happened is there, it's real. But again in respect to the family, in respect to the Browns, he's been very careful, very careful, to sort of stand back. He knows that whatever he says is not going to be read as he means it. And so he's thought that perhaps it's better to simply say, I am sorry for your loss. It's simple. But it's direct.
And if you knew him, like Greg knows him, you'd understand that that's the kind of guy he is. He wouldn't say it if he didn't think it. We could go on for volumes. But will it change anything? LEMON: All right. Neil Bruntrager, Greg Kloeppel, thank you very
much. Happy Thanksgiving to you guys. Really appreciate you joining us.
BRUNTRAGER: Thanks, Don.
KLOEPPEL: Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving to you.
BRUNTRAGER: Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.
LEMON: Thank you.
Now I want to bring in Patrick London and his wife Lois, and one of the restaurants they owned was vandalized in the unrest this week. But they're determined to get back to the community. Get everything back going.
How are you guys doing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great.
PATRICK LONDON, BUSINESS OWNER IN FERGUSON: Great.
LEMON: Good. You own two restaurants in Ferguson. In the St. Louis area. The one that's closer to Ferguson was vandalized. What happened?
P. LONDON: Well, I got a call from ADT around midnight . That, that the motion detector had, caught something and I came down to the store. And I got down here, we found out that -- that they had vandalized the building. They had broken glass everywhere. They came in, four windows and they took a few things.
LEMON: And so this is your livelihood. And, you know, I know you have to live there.
P. LONDON: Yes, it is.
LEMON: So what do you think of this?
P. LONDON: It's just -- it's sad. Disappointing.
LEMON: What were you whispering, Lois?
P. LONDON: Unfortunately a lot of business owners --
LOIS LONDON, BUSINESS OWNER IN FERGUSON: It's just sad that we have to go through this.
LEMON: And what about the business owners, Patrick? What about them? You're saying it's sad for a lot of business owners.
P. LONDON: Well, you mentioned livelihood. You know, a lot of people they're depending on the individual businesses to pay their personal bills and, you know, to make it in life. And you know, for them, to lose, you know, their business. And, you know, through no fault of their own. I mean, these are business owners, you know, like myself. You know, we, you know, experience loss. And you know we had nothing to do with the verdict. You know, nothing to do with, you know, any of the unfortunate things that are going on.
And, you know, we are stuck to pay a heavy price, you know, for the decisions that are being made by others. So it's just sad and, you know, you just wish things that, you know, people could handle things a little bit differently.
LEMON: I want to find out. Before I ask you, because I know that you're getting back, but can you just answer this one question for me? As you're sitting there, and I'm sure you were either watching the coverage or you're somewhere near your building, your restaurant that night. Did you feel helpless as you sat there and watched?
P. LONDON: Very much. Very much so. You know, in fact, when we got the news that we've been vandalized, you know, my wife she said -- I made the decision to go down. And my wife, you know, she made the comment, what are you going down there for, there's nothing you can do. And you know, to that, you know, large degree she was right. You know, but I just felt compelled to come down and you know, check out, see what was going on, you know.
You brought up livelihood. You know, this is how we live. So we have had a lot of people depending on me.
LEMON: And you said you felt compelled as well that --
P. LONDON: I just have to come down.
LEMON: You felt compelled to help with your store because even though this happened, you're still giving back. You plan on feeding folks in your community for Thanksgiving.
L. LONDON: Yes.
P. LONDON: Yes, we are. Yes, we are. It's something that we do on Thanksgiving. It's a time to be thankful. You know, we did suffer a loss. But at the same time, you know, when you look at the grand scheme of things, you know, we got a lot to be thankful for. And so a lot of -- a lot of less fortunate people, you know, that could use a Thanksgiving dinner. You know so -- this is something that we do. You know. Every year. And we look forward to doing it. It brings a smile to our faces.
LEMON: Patrick and Lois, you're great people. Thank you so much for coming on CNN. I wish you the very best Thanksgiving and the best holidays.
L. LONDON: Thank you.
LEMON: And good luck getting everything back together. OK. Thank you.
L. LONDON: Thank you.
P. LONDON: Thank you. Thank you for your time.
LEMON: When we come right back, Ferguson's mayor on the chaos in his city and who he thinks is to blame.
Plus a shocking story that you haven't heard. Reports of a man with a gun, a police shooting, and a 12-year-old boy with a toy gun is dead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.
The mayor of Ferguson speaking out today about the chaos that has engulfed his city and who he thinks is responsible.
CNN's Sarah Sidner live for us in Ferguson this evening.
Good evening to you, Sara. Today you spoke to the mayor of Ferguson, James Knowles. What did he tell you?
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we talked to him about many different things. And one of those things, of course, is this destruction that he's seen along two roads here. In Ferguson, his thoughts on what happened and who is at fault, who he sees is at fault for all this.
One he mentioned, of course, those who were the criminals who went in and broke up the city. At least the West Florissant and South Florissant. But he also talked about the responsibility of authorities in particular the National Guard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JAMES KNOWLES, FERGUSON, MISSOURI: I was assured and our community was assured that if it was getting out of control, if the National Guard was needed. At that point, we're beyond antagonizing, you know, the -- the destructions are already under way. There is no reason not to deploy them. I have no idea why they weren't deployed. That's frustrating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: We also talked to him a little bit about what he saw on West Florissant, because we are not able to get to West Florissant. We're also -- all right, so we've got -- we've got some problems here. So, you know, we've got --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's wrong with you, man? You don't have a right to touch me.
SIDNER: We've got someone who is trying to come into our live shot and typically causing problems.
Let me go --
LEMON: You guys pull in, we'll let it play out.
SIDNER: Towards the people that are coming out here, guys.
LEMON: Yes. So, Sara, is that --
SIDNER: Most people are -- listen, most people are peaceful but we've got guys like this coming at here causing problems. And maybe the same folks that get in the face of police and curse at them. Curse at the National Guard. And for the residents here, some people get very frustrated with that because they say if you're going to be protesting, be peaceful but don't come out and create more problems for a town that is already going through so much.
Let me let you listen to what the mayor said about what he saw in the daylight after Monday's destruction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KNOWLES: You watch it on TV. You see the night. You know, you see the darkness. You see this fire burning. You really don't conceive of what that really is until you go there the next day and go, wow. You know, the landscape has just totally changed. And it's amazing because, one of the things that I noticed was, there didn't seem any rhyme or reason to what was destroyed or why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: So you heard that there. You know, the mayor talking about when he was a child, when he was 10 years old. You know, taking his bike and going through some of the areas. Just very frustrating for a lot of people -- Don.
LEMON: Well handled, Sara Sidner. Thank you. Take care of yourself. We'll get back to you soon. Happy Thanksgiving to you, Sara Sidner.
I want to get now to Los Angeles where there are some protests going on. Our Paul Vercammen is there.
Paul, as I understand you are in downtown L.A. What's going on?
PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're right at the corner of Flower Street and 7th. And about 150 protesters who we said earlier were -- we thought headed to Staples Center, have been boxed in here by a line of police who have got their hands on batons, as you can see clearly in front of us and there has been some moments of some pushing and some shoving.
It's unclear right now what the strategy is. Because there's also all sorts of other officers on the other side of the street. And then if you look over just to the right, they had sealed off so some very tense moments here and some harsh words being exchanged. We have not seen any arrests over here. And the police, of course, being showered with expletives. We'll see if they let these protesters continue on their march but for right now, as I said to you, Don, they boxed in about 150 protesters right here in downtown L.A. This is Flower and 7th Street.
LEMON: OK, 150 protesters. VERCAMMEN: Yes. We're trying to listen to what this bullhorn is
saying. This is police. This is could be -- this could be an order to disperse announcement. I can hear something coming out over a loud speaker right now. And -- and we wheel over here.
Police are pulling away, police are pulling away. And they're going to let the protesters go through. So where they had held their ground, they're now letting the demonstrators go back through. And we'll find out where they go. They started at the Federal Courthouse and now the chant starts up again. "Whose streets? Our streets." And the third night of demonstrations here in downtown Los Angeles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whose streets?
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Our streets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whose streets?
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Our streets.
LEMON: So, Paul, as we listen to this, as compared to last night.
VERCAMMEN: Yes, Don.
LEMON: How big is the crowd?
VERCAMMEN: It is a much smaller crowd than last night. But something that happened that was interesting last night is the crowd at one point was solidly gathered around the LAPD headquarters. And then it started to split off and from what we understand when they moved in separate directions. It was early in the morning. When police boxed in some people and two different areas. And they made some of those arrests for disturbing the peace.
LEMON: So, Paul, the question is, as we are listening to this, we have been seeing these demonstrations going on all across the country and -- have you had the opportunity to ask the folks there, what is the end game for them?
VERCAMMEN: Well, what most of them say is they want change. They feel that this was a gross injustice. This decision not to indict Ferguson. And what they're telling us is that they want to see an entire overhaul of the justice system. And that they say, it is really skewed against people of color.
Here is one of the organizers speaking now.
LEMON: So, Paul, if you can, I know we're taking our chances here, but if you can speak to one of them and find out, you know, what they want, what is the end game, how are they planning on getting it.
VERCAMMEN: We'll try. We'll attempt to. We're moving with them and I'll try to get somebody here who might be in a more calm disposition. Obviously if somebody is watching at home, I mean.
LEMON: Yes. So -- VERCAMMEN: You're hearing a lot of expletives.
LEMON: We'll let you -- we'll let you do that.
VERCAMMEN: Excuse me.
LEMON: As we take a break here.
VERCAMMEN: Excuse me. I'm with CNN. Can I ask you a question real quick please?
Well, hang on, Don, hang on if you can.
LEMON: Yes. Go ahead.
VERCAMMEN: Can you tell us why you're marching and what you want people to know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am tired of police brutality. I am tired of disrespect. I'm tired. I'm out here for my rights. I just want to -- make my voice stand. And I'm going to stand -- don't want, I just want to be heard, I'm tired of it. I can't walk to the store in my neighborhood. Every time I walk to the store I get profiled. I'm tired of it. My brothers can't walk to the store in my neighborhood. I'm tired of police brutality. That's it.
VERCAMMEN: How long are you willing to march?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All night.
VERCAMMEN: Alright, Don. I don't know if you could hear that. But she said she's tired of being profiled. And she said that she's tired of her brothers being profiled.
LEMON: Excellent. Paul. Great interview Paul. We're gonna get back to you. Thank you very much, Paul Vercammen of the protests there in downtown Los Angeles, and when we come right back. What was it about the shooting of Michael Brown really that caused protest to spread from Ferguson all across the country, even around the world? We're gonna debate that. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: You've been watching, you know it is cold and snowy in Ferguson tonight and relatively calm despite the anger and the fear over the grand jury decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson, a decision that sparked protests all across the country. Joining me Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst and a criminal defense attorney, and Marc Lamont Hill, CNN political commentator. Thank you guys for joining us here, as we get close to this Thanksgiving, it's been one heck of a week. I want to ask you both, what you make of the protesting and what you have seen -- not just in Ferguson but really around the country even around world today. There have been protested in London. So, you know, what's at the heart of these protests, in your estimation, I'll start with you, Mark O'Mara. MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know what happened with the
Brown killing was at -- once again ripped the scab off of a wound that has been in the black community for a long, long time. And whether or not the facts meet perfectly this is just another example of when the interaction between cops and young black males happen it's often very dangerous for -- the blacks. And now, we have another opportunity sort of bring that emotion to the forefront. I'm just hoping that we'll gonna find some way to make this positive, to get some energy that's now back to the surface as it was -- you know with the Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin matter and -- figure out how to move in a positive direction. Maybe it's, talking to police agencies and making them more responsible. Training them better, maybe it's just somehow figuring out that we can't let these -- these guys die in vain.
LEMON: Marc Lamont Hill.
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think people have had enough. I think every generation reaches a point where they say, "enough." We saw this in '90 -- in '92 with Rodney King, were saying it now, from Trayvon forward. And I think what you are seeing around the globe, is an understanding that what happened in Ferguson is a microcosm of something that much broader. Negative interaction with police is one thing. But a systemic assault on black body is a bigger issue. And that's what people are speaking out against. We served the young man the right before we came on.
LEMON: It's young lady, young lady.
HILL: I said I had enough, we've had enough -- yeah, a young lady, excuse me. I couldn't see. I could only hear. You know I've had enough. My brother, he said -- I have had enough, they can't even walk to the store. That's a sense of what it means to be young and black and outside every single day. Men, women -- their body have literally been criminalized. They're tired of it.
LEMON: OK. Are these live pictures we're looking at in Oakland?
HILL: Yeah.
LEMON: OK. So, as we are interviewing you guys, these are protests in Oakland, California, and I always to give our affiliates credit. KTVU, because with them we wouldn't have these pictures from coast to coast but again, this is what you're looking at. Earlier, we saw, Los Angeles are covered was out there. And the interview, Marc Lamont Hill was representing (ph) was from one of the protesters in Los Angeles. So, we'll keep these pictures up and talk. But I want to move on because this is really, making -- your people are talking about this, trending as we say, Marc Lamont Hill, and Mark O'Mara. I'm talking about Pharell making headlines, on the new issue asking mo ebony magazine for asking why aren't people talking about Michael Brown's bullyish behavior. I interviewed Pharell earlier this year and I asked him what happened in Ferguson. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHARELL WILLIAMS, SINGER-SONGWRITER: In certain places, yeah, we are being hunted. But there are good policemen and there are bad policemen. And there are good kids and are bad kids. Regardless to what the child was, he didn't deserve to be shot down like that.
LEMON: How do you mean, how do you avoid that?
WILLIAMS: When they told him to get out of the road, he probably should have got out of the road. I wouldn't have been in the road to begin with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Mark, I want to go to a lot of is. What do you think? Marc, Marc Lamont Hill and then we'll get to Mark O'Mara, Marc Lamont Hill.
HILL: You know Pharell is a brilliant musician, one of the best of his generation. And every time he make is a comment on race, I reminded that he is a great musician, one of the best of his generation, not a race commentator. And I --
LEMON: Is he not a race commentator, honestly or he is just not saying what you want to hear?
HILL: I think you can say something that I disagree with but do it with complexity. You say stuff I disagree with just about every day. But I -- at least you -- I find your comments to be thoughtful, when you are dead wrong. Well, I -- feel like Pharell is showing deference to a kind of respectability politics that says, if you act a certain way, you'll be OK. That if you had just done this, maybe outcome would be different. At the same time that he concedes that Michael Brown didn't deserve to die and the promise that marks, that marks up the water, muddies (ph) the water, people start to blame the victim for being dead.
LEMON: Marc, are you putting that, are you putting that into his mouth by saying that, because he is saying that, you know, I wouldn't have been in the road. Therefore, he wouldn't be, I don't know if that's what he is saying or if that's just your assumption.
HILL: That's what he said, he said, he said, she shouldn't have been on the road.
LEMON: But he didn't -- but he didn't follow that by saying, if he had been on the road he would be dead. So I think that you're -- if you want to ask him if that's what he saying.
HILL: So, what's the point of mentioning it? What's the point of mentioning that he shouldn't have been in the road? If it's immaterial of to him dying, then why mention, it becomes a red herring that get allows people to talk about Michael Brown's behavior as opposed there, and was it. It's the same thing to have much like Trayvon Martin, we started talking about people's behavior, to how people dress, what kind -- whether they smoke weed or not, whether they get suspended from school, and none of it is material to the matter at hand, which is -- that they got executed in public space with, absolutely no reason.
LEMON: Alright. I wish we had more time. Darn it, OK. Go ahead, Mark O'Mara.
O'MARA: well you know, and I took flak for this and I'm gonna take it again right now. When I said that the problem that is systemic cannot be blamed 100 percent on one side of the equation or that's lead to frustration and lack of solution. Look, I think what Pharell was trying to say, what he didn't say may be it's awfully (ph) as we would have wanted was, we have to look at the whole picture. We do know, and even though he has passed now. We do know that there were some actions that Mike Brown took that probably exacerbated the situation. Does it lead, that doesn't allow him to get killed, doesn't require him to get killed, but we have to realize this is a solution that has got to cross, all of the boundary, this got to be on both sides, or else it's not gonna be a solution, it's just to make continued frustration. And I think that's what Pharell was trying to say. That's what I said a couple weeks ago in an op-ed I took flak for. But we can't just say it's the cops and it's always the cops, it's always the system. Because we can say that, we don't go anywhere.
LEMON: And I think that's really tough to -- that's really harsh to say that, that he is responsible for his own death. I don't think -- listen, I don't want to speak for Pharell, I don't think that is what Pharell is saying. And I think to do that to put that burden on him is to be disingenuous. I think Mark O'Mara has a very good point. Why can't the two co-exist, why can't you talk about both of them in the same vein? Why can't it be simultaneous?
HILL: Well, let me be clear, I'm not saying Pharell is saying -- well, just to be clear. I'm not saying Pharell is saying that. I'm saying the consequence of what Pharell is saying -- that becomes the ultimate interpretation. If we talk about somebody who's unjustly killed and we talked their behavior. That becomes the problem. Just like if some is raped, and you say, whoa, yeah, but what was she wearing? The problem is even that conversation allows that to happen. I think there's a systemic problem with police -- with police, and that's what we need to analyze here. Does that mean we can't make good choices, I mean people can make up their choices, sure, of course they can.
LEMON: Mark O'Mara, one final thought because my producers saying we have to go.
O'MARA: One final thought, Marc, Marc if we have -- if we look at this completely dispassionately how much of the responsibility for the outcome would you put on Mike brown's shoulders? Any at all?
HILL: Which part? For being killed? If -- it depends on what we think about the evidence.
O'MARA: Well, for the -- any of it? For the situation as you know it with the nuances with the concerns, with the frustrations, with the disagreements you have with the evidence, would you put any of the responsibility on Mike Brown's shoulders or is it all just Darren Brown --
HILL: Not to being dead.
O'MARA: Not because he is a cop. Not for the event that is serious death.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: No, no, yeah, but that is an unfair question?
O'MARA: And he..
HILL: He's the one with the gun. He is the one who killed, so yes --
O'MARA: How is that an unfair question?
HILL: Because -- we don't agree on what the facts are. We don't agree what the circumstances are.
O'MARA: Regardless...
HILL: We're sorting a hypothetical that --
O'MARA: No, no, Marc, regardless of this, go ahead.
HILL: What I am saying is that, we can't say regardless of what happened. Because, what happened is you are asserting a hypothetical that is also counter factual. I don't know what happened in any more than you do with certainty. But based on my understanding of the facts, I say that Darren Wilson used excessive force. That means that even if Mike Brown was jumping up and down, butt naked in the street, cursing out the officer, he still doesn't deserve to die. So, to that extent, it is not Mike Brown's fault at all. That doesn't mean Mike Brown...
HILL: OK. Couldn't make different decisions.
O'MARA: OK.
HILL: It doesn't mean that Mike Brown couldn't make better choices.
O'MARA: Yeah.
HILL: But he still doesn't deserve to die.
O'MARA: and I agree.
HILL: That is exclusively Darren Wilson's fault.
O'MARA: And Marc I hear you, it's really not a 30 second answers, it's not there. I'd love for the three of to us do this...
HILL: Right.
O'MARA: With a half-hour.
LEMON: Yeah, we'll do it, we'll do it on Monday.
O'MARA: OK.
LEMON: So, come back and -- we'll discuss. Thank you, guys. I wish we had more time. Alright, so, when we come right back, when we talk about their more protesters -- protest in California tonight, we're gonna also going to talk about Darren Wilson. He says that the -- because his conscience is clear in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown. What Brown's parents have to say about that?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Foul words from Michael Brown's parents against Police Officer Darren Wilson, especially from Michael Brown Senior. He tells CNN, that the officer who killed his son is quote, "a murder." Now I want Daryl Parks to weigh in on that, he is one of the family's attorney's. Good evening to you Daryl Parks for joining us on this Thanksgiving eve. I know you -- probably be with your family but, we appreciate you joining us. As you know, my colleague, Sunny Hostin interviewed Michael Brown's parents this morning and I want to play you a portion of that interview where Sunny asked Mrs. McSpadden about the outburst from Michael's stepfather on Monday night. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: I said that's impossible. These things have been going on since August 9 when it first happened. His emotions were taking over him just like mine. He just spoke out of anger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, let's get this perfectly clear. I don't think anyone, anywhere in the world takes any issue with that mother. That mother, raw emotion, she just lost her son. Now, the stepfather -- and again, he is very emotional because, this has become his son too as well. But other people, you know, took issue with it. A lot of people took issue with that. What do you make of -- of the comments that have made since then?
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY OF MICHAEL BROWN'S FAMILY: Well, certainly. First, I think you said it very well. He was overcome with emotion. Number two, without question, I don't think he intended to call, probably did not call response, to anyone or anything, (inaudible) and so, it was just -- they were overcome with emotion. It was very emotional. It had a great effect upon both of them. That's what we all witnessed. His word weren't right. But in that situation, sometimes you don't choose the right word for that situation. And so, I think, they are -- heartbroken, they're sad and so,
LEMON: What has he said about it? Has he said anything? Because I got to tell you a lot of people are really ticked off him. A lot of people think that he incited violence and he may have caused some of those business owners to lose their livelihood.
PARKS: Well, I've heard nothing or seen nothing that could make his comment that he may have made with any of the things that happened there. However, I could tell you, Don. I spent a good deal of time with Louis Head, ever since we worked on this case since August 9. And he is one of the best people I have ever met. In fact you may remember he was on the press conference that we did early on when mom couldn't make it. He came and stood in.
LEMON: OK.
PARKS: And you know he was a perfect gentleman.
LEMON: OK.
PARKS: So, I think he is a fine person.
LEMON: Alright. I want to move on. Because, neither of us is gonna get to the bottom of it. It's gonna have to be him and I think maybe people want to hear from him because, a lot of people are really upset by that, but I want to move on and talk about Officer Darren Wilson, OK? So, we can discuss...
PARKS: Yes.
LEMON: This later on, on a different interview. Officer Darren Wilson has said that his conscience is clear about what happened. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Officer Wilson said that he -- had a clear conscience about what happened that day. He had to do it again. He would. What's your response to that?
MIKE BROWN SR., MICHAEL BROWN'S FATHER: He is a murder. That's what that tells me.
HOSTIN: What it does that tell you Lesley?
MCSPADDEN: I hope the Lord have mercy on his soul.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So hope the Lord, do you, do you think Officer Wilson is a murder as has been said by the father?
PARKS: I think what dad was saying was, if you take a life and it doesn't bother your conscience then he sees it as, you are a murder. Now, the officer -- you know, I mean those are his word. He said what he said. It didn't bother his conscience. That's very troubling to both his parents -- very troubling to both of his parents. And, remember -- Don, they -- they have lost their son and the person that took their life -- they haven't been able to do anything against him. Nor has the system done anything against him. So, they are, doubly offended that one, they can't do anything, but two, the system has chosen not to do anything. And three, have had to sit through, an explanation, that officer was inappropriate on Monday night.
LEMON: OK. Alright, Daryl...
PARKS: They have a lot of different emotions.
LEMON: Hold that thought. We'll gonna continue this conversation on the other side of the break. You said the system hasn't done anything. The officer, grand jury has reached a decision. The judicial process has played out but maybe not in the way that many wanted it. Then were gonna continue that in that vein on the other side of the break. But I want to show you as we're doing that, this is look, Atlanta, Georgia, these are protesters are going there. We gonna going on there, we gonna take you on that as well as other protests around the country and continue our conversation with Daryl Parks, one of the attorneys for the Brown family, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back now live, with the breaking news. Atlanta, Georgia there you see protesters out in force, as well as in Los Angeles this evening and of course in Ferguson, Missouri. Back now with me, Daryl Parks, one of the Brown family attorneys, the Governor Jay Nixon in Missouri announcing that he is not going to assign -- another special prosecutor for this. Not gonna convene another grand jury. What does this mean?
PARKS: It's bad, because, he has the option to do it. I think if nothing else we are learning especially today that people are very appalled with the process. I see many flaws in those special prosecutors that were appointed, too...
LEMON: OK.
PARKS: And the way he conducted the grand jury.
LEMON: Daryl.
PARKS: So, we'll see, what happens going forward.
LEMON: Daryl Parks we have to go, thank you. Happy Thanksgiving to you.
PARKS: Thank you.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
PARKS: Same to you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: When we gets you back to protests in Atlanta, Georgia. This is downtown, where a group of protesters have gathered. They're walking down the street in, Atlanta, Georgia. This is happening all across the country.
I'm Don Lemon, thank you so much for watching. Make sure you have a safe Thanksgiving holiday. I'll see you back here next week.
"BLACK IN AMERICA: BLACK AND BLUE" with my colleague Soledad O'Brien starts now.
