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Darren Wilson's Account of Brown Shooting; Lack of Trust to Police as Reason for Protests; Owner of Looted Business Talks about Her Loss

Aired November 26, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, a spark in Ferguson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have succeed in overturning that police car on this street.

COSTELLO: Igniting protests nationwide.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Those who think that what happened in Ferguson is excuse for violence, I do not have any sympathy for that.

COSTELLO: New York, Chicago, Atlanta, L.A., streams of protesters standing in solidarity with Michael Brown and his family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're still hurting. I feel like we just killed him again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they're the grieving parents who are mourning the loss of their son.

COSTELLO: But the officer who shot the unarmed teenager sticks to his story and says skin color did not matter.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST: When you look through your heart and your mind that if Michael Brown were white this would have gown down in exactly the same way?

DARREN WILSON, POLICE OFFICER THAT SHOT AND KILLED MICHAEL BROWN: Yes.

COSTELLO: The fury still simmering in the streets.

(on camera): It looks like the National Guard you see there is taking somebody in?

(voice over): As Missouri's governor faces accusation he held back the National Guard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is false and absurd and politics and has nothing to do with what any of the folks up here are doing.

COSTELLO: Let's talk, live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COSTELLO: And good morning, I'm Carol Costello, thank you so much for joining me. For the second straight night unrest filled the streets of Ferguson, Missouri, police cars slipped over or set on fire, bottles of urine thrown at the cops. But police were quicker to make arrests overnight and in all, 44 people taken into custody. All of this comes as we hear from Officer Darren Wilson for the first time since he fired those shots that killed Michael Brown. Wilson talked with ABC News just hours after the grand jury decided not to indict him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARREN WILSON: It actually was just a normal day and I was just patrolling my area.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: Alone?

WILSON: Alone, yes. We're always alone in Ferguson. Always one-man cars. I was actually on my way to go get lunch.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And you're driving to lunch and what do you see?

WILSON: I see two individuals who I later became to know as Dorian Johnson and Michael Brown.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You didn't know then?

WILSON: No, I did not. I saw them walking in the middle of the street single file on the double yellow line. I stopped in front of them and let them walk up towards me.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But you're still in the car.

WILSON: Yes. I never even put the car in park, I had it in the drive. And as they walked up I'd asked Dorian Johnson, who was the first one, to walk on the sidewalk and his reply was "We're almost to our destination." I was like "OK, what's wrong with the sidewalk?" And then as we passed he just kept walking, ignoring that. That's when Michael Brown came next and he had exchanged some explicit words with me. He had said (EXPLETIVE DELETED) what you have to say.

STEPHANOPOULOS: First words to you?

WILSON: Yes. I looked at him, you know, as law enforcement, we're always trained to look at people's hands because the hands are what will hurt you and I noticed that his right hand was full of cigarillos and it kind of all clicked then, the call I heard, I was in the vicinity of where they were going, cigarillos were in his hand, Dorian Johnson was wearing a black shirt, and that's when it hit me that these were the suspects from ...

STEPHANOPOULOS: He was aggressive in his manner?

WILSON: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Cigarillos in his hand? Did you have any sense that he might be armed?

WILSON: I did not know. I had no idea. I got on the radio, and I asked for assistance.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What happens next?

WILSON: I'd backed up. Because they kept walking. Ignored everything I said.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You're still in the car?

WILSON: I'm still in the car. I then put the car in reverse and I backed up just past them and blocked the street and them off.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you're kind of in the middle of the street? Like this?

WILSON: Yeah, the street's this way, my car is angled that way. I kind of blocked down from escaping and just kind of provided a little security for everybody. And I was going to open the door and get out of the car and when I did so, as I opened the door, I said "Hey, come here for a minute." And that's when he turned and said "What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) are you going to do about it?" And slammed my door shot on me.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Slammed the door shut?

WILSON: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you're trying to get out, he slams the door shut?

WILSON: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And?

WILSON: Again, I'm taken aback because I've never been trapped in my car. I use my door to try to push him back and yell at him to get back and again, he just pushed the door shut and just stares at me.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you're staring each other down?

WILSON: Yeah, he stares at me and he's like almost over top of me. Looked like he was trying to intimidate me. And as I looked back at him also, and punches start flying.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He threw the first punch?

WILSON: Yes, he threw the first one and it hit me in the left side of my face.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Because, you know, some of the witnesses have said that they saw you trying to pull him in into the car.

WILSON: That would be against every training ever taught to any law enforcement officer.

STEPHANOPOULOS: It didn't happen.

WILSON: No, it didn't.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He punched you, and did he land a punch?

WILSON: Yes, he did. The first one he hit me in the side of the face right in this area. And then I don't know what or how many hit me after that, I just know there was a barrage of swinging and grabbing and pulling for about ten seconds.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What's running through your head?

WILSON: What provoked such an aggressive response to really nothing out of the ordinary besides the conversation? My goal when I originally tried to get out of the car was to get out and just talk with him for 30 seconds until backup arrived and then we could investigate the stealing further. I had reached out my window of my right hand to grab on to his forearm because I was going to try to move him back and get out of the car to where I'm no longer trapped and when I felt I just felt the immense power that he had. And the way I described is it was it was like a five-year-old holding on to Hulk Hogan. That is how big this man was.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Hulk Hogan?

WILSON: He was very large. Very powerful man.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You're a pretty big guy.

WILSON: Yeah, I'm above average. I'm about 210, 215. But, you know, from what I've heard he was around 290. And then as I'm holding him I see him coming back around with his left hand and it's in the shape like this and it comes through the window and just a solid punch to the right side of my face. I mean the next thing was "How do I survive?" Because I didn't know ...

STEPHANOPOULOS: How do you survive?

WILSON: Yes, I didn't know if I would be able to withstand another hit like that. I mean it is - you hear all the time one punch and someone gets knocked out. And if I'm knocked out then what happens to me? Because then I can't defend myself at all. So that was my fear is if he hits me again will I be conscious after that? I had to still defend myself?

STEPHANOPOULOS: So, that's what you're thinking at that moment "I can't get hit again"?

WILSON: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And what do you do?

WILSON: I actually went through my progression of how do I - how do I get of this? What do I do? What's my force that I'm allowed to do? And my training just overrode everything you could ever think. It means training just kicked in.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What did your training do at that moment?

WILSON: At first it went to mace. But if I would have used that it would have not only disabled him if it got to him through both our sets of hands but it would have disabled me.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you go through the checklist. The mental checklist. You ruled out mace?

WILSON: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: This is all happening in a split second?

WILSON: Yes. And the only thing I felt left was my firearm. So, I withdrew my firearm and ...

STEPHANOPOULOS: Where's your gun at that point?

WILSON: I keep it on my right hip. I take it out and I come up at pointing ...

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you're no longer holding on to his arm.

WILSON: No, my left hand is now blocking my face and I'm now getting my firearm with my right.

STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, so show us exactly what you did?

WILSON: I was like this and I brought my gun up like that and what I said, I said "Get back or I'm going to shoot you." And then his response, immediately he grabbed the top of my gun and when he grabbed it, he said you're too much of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) to shoot me. And when he did that, he had twisted it and put it down into my hip and had the barrel dug into the crease of my left hip. And while he's doing that I can feel his hand trying to come over my hand and get inside the trigger guard and try and shoot me with my own gun. And at that point I envisioned a bullet going into my leg. That was - I thought that was the next thing.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So, both your hands are on the gun at that point?

WILSON: Yes. This hand is trying to just get it back and, you know, my right hand was on like the pistol.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And his hand is over yours?

WILSON: Yes, it was over the top.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What did you do?

WILSON: I managed to wiggle I mean only a couple of inches. I just slide over just slightly and the force of him pushing down actually slid off the side of my leg and when it slid off as now pointed down the floor board. Well, I was - I didn't have enough strength to pull the gun up and with just one hand I couldn't maneuver it so I took my left elbow and locked it into the back of my seat and I just pushed as hard as I could like this with both of my arms. And I ended up getting it to slide up my leg towards my knee and when it got to fully outreached I noticed it was lined up with the silhouette of his body and that's when I pulled the trigger for the first time.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What happened?

WILSON: It didn't go off. The gun was actually being jammed by his hand on top of the firearm. I believe his finger was blocking the hammer from striking the slide. So I tried again and again another click. And this time I -- this has to work otherwise I'm going to be dead. He's going to get this gun away from me. Something is going to happen and I'm going to be dead. So I pull a third time and it finally goes off. It went into the door and when it went into the door my window had been rolled down so the glass of the window then exploded up from the door. And when it exploded, I just remember seeing a big chunk of glass coming over my hand and I see blood on my hand and I didn't know what it was from originally. You know, later I found out it was actually his blood because I wasn't cut. But after the glass flies over, I look at him and he kind of backs up about six inches to a foot and it kind of startled both of us.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That was the first time you ever used your gun, right?

WILSON: Yes, it was.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What were you thinking?

WILSON: We were both in shock. That's all - I mean - it was shocking him to pull it, but also at the same time it was shocking that this was the only option I had. After I looked at him, he's kind of shocked, he gets even angrier. His aggression, his face, the intensity just increases and he comes back in at me again. When he comes back in I just blocked my face again and I put my gun up and tried to shoot. It doesn't shoot the time, either. Now it's jammed again. Again, training just kicked in, I never even thought about this. Your gun jams, you acted, you get a new round in there. And when I did that I wasn't looking at him, I was just like - rack it, expecting another hit, and I put my gun up and fired. And after I fired that shot I look over - he's running ...

STEPHANOPOULOS: It went off that time?

WILSON: It did go off that time. He starts to run, and I see the dust cloud behind him and I'm like OK, I missed, that was - the round didn't hit him. Then I go to exit my car and I when I'm getting out, I use my walkie and I say "Shots fired. Send more cars." And I started chasing after Michael Brown.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You sent that radio message. "Shots fired. Send more cars." But nobody got it.

WILSON: No.

STEPHANOPOULOS: How come? WILSON: I found out later my radio during all the altercation which was down the side which was where my portable radio is kept, the channel was changed from 1 to 3.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That moment before the second shot you guys were staring at each other and you said there was a look in his eye like something you've never seen before. You described it as a demon.

WILSON: It was a very, very intense, intense image he was presenting. I was so shocked by the whole interaction because this was -- escalated so quickly from a simple request to now a fight for survival. And it still doesn't make sense to me why someone would act in that way and be so mad instantly, so aggressive instantly.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And he then does run away?

WILSON: Yes, he does.

STEPHANOPOULOS: How far does he go?

WILSON: I don't know. I mean around 30, 40 feet.

STEPHANOPOULOS: At that moment you've called for help.

WILSON: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Why not stay in the car? He's running away.

WILSON: My job isn't to just sit and wait. You know, I have to see where this guy goes. My goal wasn't to arrest him. My goal was to maintain a visual on him and I was worried ...

STEPHANOPOULOS: You mean you weren't going to arrest him alone.

WILSON: Not alone, no. I knew I had backup on the way.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And then he stopped?

WILSON: He does stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Compelling, right? Well, let's talk about this. Joining me now is CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes and CNN commentator L.Z. Granderson. Good morning to both of you.

TOM FUENTES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Thanks. I can't wait to hear your insight. L.Z., I know much of Ferguson was probably glued to that interview. The Brown family appears quite angry over it. Listen to what they told CBS this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: He didn't do what he had to do, he did what he wanted to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What he wanted to do?

MCSPADDEN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In other words you think he wanted to kill your son?

MCSPADDEN: I don't think he wanted to kill my son, but he wanted to kill someone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in his statement he said he'd do it again.

MCSPADDEN: His conscience is clear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His conscience ...

MCSPADDEN: How could your conscience be clear after killing somebody even if it was an accidental death?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And to allow the body to lie there for four hours.

MCSPADDEN: Exactly. I couldn't even -- we couldn't even have my son's organs donated? You understand that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: L.Z., you've been talking to members of the community. Does Wilson's interview make things more tense or does it enlighten?

L.Z. GRANDERSON, CNN COMMENTATOR: I haven't come across anyone, protester or non-protester that buys 100 percent of what Officer Wilson said. I don't know anyone that buys even half of what he said. And I think because it just doesn't pass the smell test, but more importantly, it doesn't pass the trust test. I saw your previous segment where you were talking about what can we do to rebuild the community and the trust between police officers and people here in Ferguson? You have to start by first building trust. There is no trust here and if you don't trust the source of the information you certainly are not going to trust the information itself. And that's the main problem. No one trusts the police here and they definitely don't trust what Officer Wilson has to say.

COSTELLO: And, Tom, let me ask you about this. Officer Wilson said he wouldn't do - he would do nothing differently. He did everything by the book. He made absolutely no mistakes. Really?

FUENTES: Carol, I think in this situation, you know, he's probably gone over this 150 times in his own mind and I think that in looking at what occurred to him he was attacked and I don't care how many - you know, we hear all these stories that he tried to drag Michael Brown through the driver's side window of his car. For what purpose? That's absurd. No cop does that. When you have someone approach your vehicle, you get out immediately. You want to be on your feet, you don't want to be trapped in a sitting position as Officer Wilson ended up being. And I know the comment that the community doesn't trust what he said and no one's buying it. I'm getting the opposite e-mail. I'm getting - And this is not just from law enforcement people, friends, others, saying they do buy it. And the reason they buy it is maybe you could say there's a little hyperbole with the Hulk Hogan comment but the forensic evidence does back up Wilson as to what occurred and there are eyewitnesses.

CNN's been reporting for two months what the -- what people in the community have said, that seven witnesses unanimously said he was surrendering. They have not been unanimously. The reporting says that, but that's not been true from the beginning. If you recall the contractor on the street that was jumping up and down and took kind of the selfie video of himself supposedly mimicking Brown, that individual gives an interview later where he says that Brown was coming at Officer Wilson and Wilson was back-pedaling as he shot him. Now that's a ...

COSTELLO: Well, let me - let me just run this by you, Tom. Because I interviewed two police chiefs earlier this morning and both of them told me that we really have to look at exactly what went down that day as far as what Officer Wilson did. First of all, should Officer Wilson have gotten out of the car and run after Michael Brown? Should he have pulled up beside them in the first place or waited for backup? Once he realized that these two were robbery suspects, shouldn't those things be reviewed?

FUENTES: He did - he did radio before the encounter that he had the individuals on the street.

COSTELLO: He didn't wait for backup to come, though.

FUENTES: Well, you don't wait for it. I mean he's backed up, what's he going to do? Drive away and wait for other officers. In a small town like that, when you call for assistance or say you have the subjects in sight, you would expect reasonably within a minute or two another police car to arrive. After the altercation when he says "Shots fired" not realizing the radio had switched, again, he would have to assume and rightfully assume that backup is on its way. Now you're radioing shots fired, you're going to have 100 police officer - police cars arrive within a matter of minutes if you put out a call like that. I've been involved in this before as a street cop. I know how many cars are going to be on route and how fast they're going to come.

As far as letting -- I've heard the comment "Oh, he should have let him go away." No, he shouldn't have, at the point where he's punched in the face and Brown is trying to get his gun, once that's happened, he can't let him go because now if the comments that the -- that Brown's unarmed, he doesn't know that positively that he is unarmed and secondly you're going to do what? Let him run into a nearby apartment where he could maybe get a butcher knife, hold a family hostage to do it? A police officer cannot let a felon run away just because you had an altercation. That's just ...

COSTELLO: OK, so let's head out to Ferguson, now. So, L.Z., do people remotely understand that? Do they listen? Are they receptive to Officer Wilson's side of the story? GRANDERSON: The reason why, regardless of the names involved, that

there's a racial divide on these type of stories and other issues as well is because there are two different sets of experiences happening simultaneously in America. And I listened very respectfully to what the other guest said and the main thing that I heard was "He trusted and believed Officer Wilson." From my perspective and from the perspective of many people that I've spoken to here in Ferguson and surrounding area, nothing that Officer Wilson makes sense to them.

We teach our children that when they have a confrontation with a police officer actually to run. And it's dehumanizing to suggest that this man was larger than life, strong enough to stop a gun from firing and when he gets hit by multiple bullets continue to run towards the person who is shooting at him. I was in the protest, in the heart of the protest Tuesday night when the -- when people heard cannons fire. They scattered and ran. When people heard gunfire, they scattered and ran. So you're trying to tell me that Michael Brown, Jr., is the only person in the city of Ferguson who when he hears a fire, hears a gun being shot and is getting hit by bullet he doesn't run? He's the only person that's going to actually run towards the shooter? That doesn't make sense to a lot of people, Carol.

(CROSSTALK)

FUENTES: Doesn't make sense.

GRANDERSON: And it doesn't make sense.

FUENTES: Excuse me.

GRANDERSON: The other thing - I'll let you sir, I'll let you talk. So, please allow me to finish. The other thing that doesn't make sense to a lot of people is the lack of transparency. When you know you only need nine of 12 votes to have a no indictment done and nine of those people are white and three of those people are black and then we don't know how the vote went down and you're telling me well, this lack of transparency that the people here in Ferguson are just supposed to buy, that they just - all the evidence, all the forensic evidence that Darren Wilson has six weeks to analyze himself to make sure his story was correct before he got in front of the grand jury, you expect these people to just go along to get along. That's the reason why they're angry.

There's a lack of transparency and so much of this story doesn't make sense to the black people in this community and the white people in this community and obviously because of 170 cities that we've seen having similar protests doesn't make sense to a great deal of people regardless of their color here in America.

COSTELLO: All right. I've got to leave it there. Obviously we've got a long road to go before any -- I don't know. I don't know. Thanks to both of you. L.Z. Granderson, Tom Fuentes, I appreciate it. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: For many in the town of Ferguson, Michael Brown's killing was an excruciating blow and the news that Officer Darren Wilson would not be indicted another painful blow and the ensuing violence further fracturing the community's foundation. Ferguson resident Walter Brewer says the looting and vandalism sent a message he does not want his child to hear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTER BREWER, FERGUSON RESIDENT: I don't want my son to grow up to be a part of something like this. I always tell my son, if you want to get out of this, do good in school so you will never have to -- and I hope that he never had to even experience anything like this ever again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: With me now, Janice Andrews, a Ferguson business owner who lost everything in this week's chaos. Thank you so much for being with me this morning, I appreciate it.

JANICE ANDREWS, OWNER, HIDDEN TREASURES: Thank you, thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: Tell us about your business and what happened?

ANDREWS: Well, my business was totally destroyed on the first night that they gave the verdict. It was one of the first businesses. Everything was destroyed. I had an antiques collectible and jewelry store.

COSTELLO: And your business has been there for decades, right?

ANDREWS: No, only three years. It was a new business. I just made it over the milestone. They say if you can make it the first three years, that your business has the likelihood of being able to make it. I just gotten everything in my store, everything was paid for and I had all of my fixtures, everything, all of my inventory stocked up. Sacrificed two to three - almost two and a half years of my income to grow my business and to strengthen it. I put it all back into my inventory in my store.

COSTELLO: Who do you think is responsible for this?

ANDREWS: Well, could you, like, maybe explain that a little bit more when you mean "responsible" for -- I don't understand your question.

COSTELLO: For damaging your store. Who do you think is responsible?

ANDREWS: The damage to my store was caused by looters. Now, I didn't have any -- I didn't have no one there protecting my store. That's the other stores in Ferguson had. When they went to go toward the other newer businesses, they were throwing tear gas at them or whatever there was that they were throwing in the air, that was thrown and they were redirected and they were redirected back down toward my way. But when they came down toward my way, there was no police put down there to protect my business which is only ...

COSTELLO: Why do you think that was?

ANDREWS: ... three years old. I don't know. My business has been in the community for three years, a lot of the other businesses in the community were put on local news to showcase their business and although -- if someone looked up my business, Janice Andrews, the Hidden Treasures, I was told my business was upscale and I tried to bring upscale or finer things to the community, it never was showcased on the news. It was kind of like a secret, I don't know what it was. But I felt that the businesses on the other end were protected, but mine didn't get that protection. Although I do have built up a consistent clientele that supports me and that I love, and I love now, but I still have to deal with that.

COSTELLO: Who do you blame for that? Is it the governor for not sending out the National Guard sooner? Is it the local police for not being on that - in that particular area where your business was located? Who do you blame?

ANDREWS: I don't know who to blame. I just know as a business owner and as a tax paying citizen I was -- had hope and confidence that everything would be all right. Because the first time I didn't get looted. And so I don't know who to blame. You know, we don't live in situations like this every day. I just know I expected my law enforcement to be there and for me to have the protection and I wish I would have been valued enough.

COSTELLO: What would you say, Janice, what would you say to the looters? What would you say to the looters?

ANDREWS: Hurting and destroying things when we're hurting does not fix things. As I said on last night, I've been there for three years and, you know, someone asked me what do I miss most? The things can never be replaced but people more important than things and my heart goes out to the looters even though I was the victim of being looted and I lost everything because they're doing things that can possibly set them back in their lives.

I was told it was young people, not only black, but black and white young people that did this to me and they're doing things that even though they may feel hopeless now, please don't get caught up in the moment and destroy the rest of your life, not have the possibility to be able to go to college or not be able to receive fundings that you need because you were rioting or you were destroying stuff that in a moment your hurt.