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Emotions Rage in Ferguson and Elsewhere; Darren Wilson Interview Examined
Aired November 26, 2014 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, here we go. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.
Today we begin with a movement that is gaining momentum across the country. The grand jury's decision not to indict Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson, igniting protests, not just in Ferguson, New York to Los Angeles and everywhere in between.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: No justice, no peace. No justice, no peace. No justice, no peace. No justice, no peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: In 170 towns and cities, protesters chanted and marched and whenever possible tried to make the highways stop traffic. As officer Darren Wilson explained in an interview with ABC News, he talked about why he shot and killed Michael Brown. Here is part of that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE OFFICER: I told them that I had to shoot somebody. And he asked me why. And I said, well, he had grabbed my gun and he charged me and he was going to kill me.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: So you killed him first?
WILSON: Yes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Is there anything you could have done differently that would have prevented that killing from taking place?
WILSON: No.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Nothing?
WILSON: No.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And you're absolutely convinced, when you look through your heart and your mind, that if Michael Brown were white this would have gone down in exactly the same way?
WILSON: Yes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: No question?
WILSON: No question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: And now you are about to see the impact these words are having on Michael Brown's mother and father. CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin is fresh off a plane from Ferguson. She joins me now to talk me through -- you talked to both of these parents just a little while ago today here in New York. We were just talking before the show and you say that some of what they shared with you, it was stuff you had never heard before.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. They were very open with me. I think they were very honest. I think they felt very comfortable with me. But it's very clear, Brooke, that they are both grieving, deeply grieving parents and they're very emotional and it's very raw for them. And they have heard about the interview with ABC News that Officer Wilson gave and they had a lot to say about that.
BALDWIN: Let me get into all of that, but first, let me play this. This outburst, this controversial outburst on the streets of Ferguson which they responded to.
HOSTIN: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So, you know, despite all these calls for calm, here was Michael Brown's stepfather, and the mother was behind him. Was this a moment of just raw emotion for -- how did she explain this?
HOSTIN: Yes, and I think we should put it in context, we only played the part of her husband saying those thing and being very emotional. But right before then, she had just heard, Brooke, the grand jury decision that there would be no indictment for who she believed murdered her son. And she felt the need to go into Ferguson, in front of the police department, because she hadn't heard, she says, from anyone from the police department. And so what we didn't see was that she had just gotten there and she was trying to speak to the people of Ferguson, trying to speak to the protester, and she said it was very emotional. And her husband, who they just got married in May, and they're very much in love, had just seen her grieving publicly like that.
BALDWIN: Let's play part of your conversation. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: We've all seen the video of you going to where the protesters were in front of the Ferguson Police Department and you were on a car and you're speaking to the people. Why did you feel the need to do that?
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: I felt the need to do that because, one, like you just said, they never addressed us, and, two, you heard our pleas and our cries for everything to go the way it should be, and then, third of all, we heard this, and it was just like a - like I had been shot. Like, you shooting me now. Just, no respect, no sympathy, nothing. And so my emotions were raging, and I had to go up there just to let them know, you just really don't care, do you? Why don't you care? This could be your child. This could be anybody's child.
HOSTIN: When you were on the car, your husband, you've been married since May, got up on the car and said "burn the b -- down," and CNN and other outlets have been replaying that. And some are saying that he single handedly started the rioting and the fires. What do you say to that?
MCSPADDEN: I say that that's impossible. These things have been going on since August 9th when this first happened. These emotions with were taken over him, just like mine. He just spoke out of anger. It's one thing to speak, and it's a different thing to act. He did not act, he just spoke out of anger.
I'm a grieving mother. That's my husband. He's been around Michael at least four years. So he's grown to love him, not as much as I do, but he's grown to love him like he loves his own children. So when you are that hurt, and the system has did you this wrong, you may say some things as well. We've all spoke out of anger before.
HOSTIN: So do you believe that when Officer Wilson first approached your son and told him to move out of the roadway, that your son's first response was, "f what you say"?
MICHAEL BROWN SR., MICHAEL BROWN'S FATHER: No.
MCSPADDEN: No.
HOSTIN: Do you think that's even possible?
MCSPADDEN: No.
BROWN: No.
HOSTIN: Do you think it's even possible, Officer Wilson is saying that your son reached into the car and tried to grab his gun?
BROWN: No. HOSTIN: Do you think it's possible that your son told him, "you are
too much of a p-word to shoot me"?
BROWN: No.
MCSPADDEN: I don't even believe those -- any of those words were exchanged at all.
BROWN: No.
HOSTIN: And why not?
MCSPADDEN: Why? You know why, because my sister had just rolled up that street and rolled past my son as he was coming down. And just that quick, not even five minutes went by before someone was running to my mother's house saying, Mike, Mike is laying up, you know, up there in the middle of the street dead. Interaction or, you know, it lasts a little longer than that, especially when you're looking at the distance and you're looking at they're running and when did that - when did this conversation happen?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: You know, hearing that, I can't imagine losing a child the way they did and then, of course, the decision from the grand jury. But the flipside of this is, as I'm sure people are watching and thinking, these are grieving parents, they can't even conceive of their own child cursing at a police officer, not disobeying when a police officer says, get out of the road.
HOSTIN: Yes. And, you know, and I asked them that. I asked them to describe their relationship with their son, to describe their son. But what was interesting to me, and credible and believable, Brooke, as a black parent myself, even the attorney general and our president has said, as black parents, we all have conversations with our black boys about how to interact with law enforcement, because we are living in a time and in a place where that is inevitable, and we want our children to come home alive. And Michael Brown's parents had those conversations with him and they are saying that there is no way -
BALDWIN: Conversations saying -
HOSTIN: Saying -
BALDWIN: Do what a police officer says.
HOSTIN: Absolutely.
BALDWIN: Do not curse at a police officer.
HOSTIN: Be respectful. And so they are saying in light of Trayvon Martin's death, in light of the conversations that they had with him, they do not believe that that would have been his first response.
BALDWIN: How did -
HOSTIN: And that seemed credible to me.
BALDWIN: How do they respond to Officer Wilson's interview with George Stephanopoulos over at ABC News. You have this police officer saying, hey, he's sorry, that he felt threatened, that he felt like there were no other options. Also, I'm sure mindful of this federal investigation, possible civil rights violations, that's being looked into that said, how - especially the mother?
HOSTIN: Well, I don't want to give too much up, because we're going to play this in its entirely -
BALDWIN: Oh, yes, a tease.
HOSTIN: On "AC 360" tonight at 8:00. But the bottom line is, that they have a response for Officer Wilson and what he said to ABC News.
BALDWIN: OK.
HOSTIN: They certainly have a response.
BALDWIN: We'll look for it, 8:00 tonight. Sunny Hostin, I really, really appreciate you. And we'll analyze this with an entire panel in just a moment. Thank you for sharing that.
HOSTIN: Thanks.
BALDWIN: Meantime, again, make sure you watch Sunny's full interview tonight, 8:00 Eastern, right here on CNN on "AC 360."
Plus, in addition to that interview, we will discuss Darren Wilson's interview, including the timing of that sit-down and what his lawyers told him to say, likely what to avoid, how to dress, how to sit. We'll talk about all of that.
And just a head's up, any minute now we will take you to the White House on a much, much lighter note, folks. President Obama, big, big goings on in Washington today, will be pardoning a turkey in America's Thanksgiving tradition. So we'll take that live. You are watching CNN's special live coverage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Of you going to where the protesters were in front of the Ferguson police department, and you are on a car, and you're speaking to the people. Why did you feel the need to do that?
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: I felt the need to do that because, one, like you just said, they never addressed us, and, two, you heard our pleas and our cries for everything to go the way it should be, and then, third of all, we heard this and it was just like - like I had been shot. Like, you shoot me now. Just no respect, no sympathy, nothing. And so my emotions were raging, and I had to go up there and just to let them know, you just really don't care, do you? (END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: That is the piece of the interview that we just played, a little bit more for you. That is Michael Brown's mother. She and Michael Brown's father just sat down with Sunny Hostin.
So let me bring in two gentlemen by my side, criminal defense attorney Eric Guster and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.
Just to - I'd love to have each of you first just reacting to what you just heard. Eric.
ERIC GUSTER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That's a grieving mother.
BALDWIN: Yes.
GUSTER: Whenever you have a situation where a son has been killed, you have to deal with the family. And mothers have a special bond with their children. And to know that you have to bury your child, that's one of the worst feelings that a parent can have. And that's what that mother is dealing with, and it's heartbreaking.
BALDWIN: The fact that she says, Joey, that her son did not go for the gun?
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, you know, any mother, obviously, is going to be protective over the person that they gave birth to. And mothers, you know, who do we look to, who do we respect, who do we admire, who is our everything? Our moms, you know! And so certainly for a son to be taken away, it's certainly a sad, tragic thing no matter the circumstance. And when particularly, Brooke, in this circumstance, she's just got to be devastated. And so you can see why she would say that.
BALDWIN: She's devastated. She reacted specifically to Officer Darren Wilson's interview on ABC News. We have just one piece of that. Roll it, Allen (ph).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE OFFICER: I was so shocked by the whole interaction, because this was -- escalated so quickly from a simple request to now a fight for survival. And it still doesn't make sense to me why someone would act in that way and be so mad instantly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Officer Darren Wilson says he has a quote/unquote "clean conscious" over the shooting. He says after the first shot, Brown ran away, but he followed Brown, not to arrest him, but to see where Brown was going as more officers were on the way. Officer Wilson then says, Brown stopped, turned toward him and began running toward Wilson. He then says he shot at Michael Brown again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WILSON: After that I paused and I again yell, you know, stop, get on the ground, giving him the opportunity to stop. And he ignored all the commands and he just kept running. And so after he kept running yet again, I shot another series of shots, and at least one of those hit him because I saw the flinch. And he stopped. I stopped for a - I stopped and I said, you know, get on the ground, get on the ground. Well, this time he's about 15 feet away. So I start back pedaling because he's just getting to close and he's still not stopping after - from what I -
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: You were back pedaling?
WILSON: Yes, away from him, because I was like - he's already running through these shots. I mean he -- they weren't fazing him. It didn't - didn't matter to him. And he was looking through me. And as he gets to that 15 feet after I fire the second round of shots, he's just about eight to 10 feet. And as he does that, he kind of starts to lean forward like he's going to tackle me. And eight to 10 feet is close. I mean that - if he's going to tackle me, he's going to tackle me at that point. And I looked down my barrel of my gun and I fried and what I saw was his head and that's where it went.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Eric, let me just begin with you. As a criminal defense attorney, you have to imagine, he had much prep with laywer, lawyers, right?
GUSTER: Yes. Absolutely.
BALDWIN: Not only what to wear, how the sit, but specifically what to say and also what not to say, mindful of a federal investigation still ongoing. What couldn't he say?
GUSTER: He could not say that he would have done something differently in those circumstances. He had to stick with his story that he had no choice but to shoot Michael Brown. That is the line of questioning and the line of thought that he has to be consistent with, because if he says that he could have used his Taser or he says that he could have used his baton in order to subdue him, that goes to the legal question of whether he could be civilly liable for the death of Michael Brown.
BALDWIN: Because you have - hearing folks, you know, after that interview was played saying he's not remorseful enough, he could have been more effusive. There are legal reasons for that.
JACKSON: Well, certainly, there are, Brooke. But, remember, he has to keep -- there are two things in mind that his defense attorneys are telling him constantly and repeatedly, and it's like a mantra. The one thing is, imminent fear, imminent threat. The second thing is, reasonableness. And so certainly when he's speaking about what happened, Brooke, he's going to speak to the issue of, I was in immanent fear for my life, there was no reasonable alternative, and under those circumstances, any police officer would have done exactly as I did. So that's the issue, that's the narrative. Now, what happens, Brooke, is that remember the grand jury, and I know
this is what - the interview he was giving on TV, but when you're in a grand jury, grand juries are very good in terms of acquiring information, but sifting out the information, they're not the best places to do that. And what I'm speaking to is when he testified in the grand jury. When you give testimony at trial, for example, Brooke, you have attorneys, you know, very good attorneys, like Eric Guster, who will go in there and they, you know, they'll cross-examine you. And they will question everything you say. So you say you have injuries, sir. What - let's show the injuries. That's a significant injury that you had that caused this to occur? Is that what you're saying? So all I'm suggesting is -- and a grand jury certainly gives an opportunity to get the information out, but to the extent that you're not pressed on what you have to say, that's the issue.
BALDWIN: And that was Ben Crump's point yesterday of not challenging the credibility.
And on that point, quick break, stay with me, gentlemen, please, because I want to play some more sound. We heard the comparison from the grand jury testimony from the officer comparing Michael Brown to specifically Hulk Hogan.
GUSTER: Yes.
BALDWIN: Let's talk about that on the other side of this break. Stay with me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE OFFICER: It was like a five year old holding on to Hulk Hogan. That's just how big this man was.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: Hulk Hogan?
WILSON: He was very large. A very powerful man.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You're a pretty big guy.
WILSON: Yes, I'm above average. I'm about 210, 215. But, you know, from what I've heard, he was around 290.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: All right, so we know he said that in grand jury testimony. Now here we hear it from this police officer sitting across from ABC News' George Stephanopoulos. Let me bring these two back in, Eric Guster and Joey Jackson.
On that point, you wanted to specifically get on that because you say, to be able to paint that picture, Hulk Hogan compared to a five-year- old, that that is - that is his comparison, brilliant for the grand jurors? GUSTER: It was brilliant for his defense, because when people need an
image in their minds of this situation, exactly what happened in that car and out there in Ferguson, now they have painted a picture that this is Hulk Hogan - this is an image that a lot of the people who are on the grand jury grew up with, Hulk Hogan, the huge wrestler who was throwing people all over rings and manhandling all of his opponents. Now - and he's a five-year-old wrestling Hulk Hogan. So he, in his mind, had no choice but to shoot Michael Brown. That's the image he wanted to leave with those grand jurors.
JACKSON: Would (INAUDIBLE) too.
BALDWIN: But, I mean, George pressed him, is that a fair comparison?
JACKSON: Well, what it comes back to, eminent fear of threats, right?
GUSTER: Yes.
JACKSON: Of serious bodily injury or death.
BALDWIN: Yes.
JACKSON: And reasonableness of my behavior, which is why I agree with Eric, you paint a mental picture that everyone could relate to. They relate to it and, you know what, those two legal issues regarding justification, self-defense, imminent threat, reasonable behavior, there it is.
GUSTER: And all he needed were four people who believe it.
BALDWIN: Yes.
GUSTER: Only four, because he needed nine votes out of 12 to get an indictment.
BALDWIN: And he got it.
GUSTER: He just needed four. Exactly.
BALDWIN: He got it.
Here's my other question, because you, again, have prepped your clients - well, I mean, in terms of sitting Darren Wilson down, you are saying his lawyers talked to him in such detail down to wear a tie or not.
GUSTER: Everything that he does in reference to those grand jurors, they're going to watch it. they're going to look at how he's speaking, how he's sitting, how he's presenting himself, what words he says. It's just like the Hulk Hogan reference, he felt in imminent fear for his life. Those things will stick with him because he may have worn something that made him look smaller. Those are the images that they needed to see because when you go through trial, whether it is a grand jury or a jury trial, those people are paying attention to every single detail, because that's the biggest thing that's happening in their lives. They're in grand jury, they're looking at what you're wearing, what you're doing, what you're saying, and how --
BALDWIN: So even in an interview with George Stephanopoulos, he is, I'm sure, being told, you know, no tie, no jacket, black or brown, blue button down, right? All -
JACKSON: Not even in, Brooke, especially in an interview like that certainly.
BALDWIN: Yes.
JACKSON: And not to suggest anything's wrong with that. I mean we, as lawyers, that's the job that you do, to counsel your client, to put the best foot forward.
BALDWIN: Yes. Joey, what about just the timing of the interview. I mean it wasn't even 24 hours after the grand jury decision was made public. And, you know, when you hear from the parents of Michael Brown, obviously it's crushing for them. I'm sure it would be - I would imagine it would be crushing for them hearing him speak any time of the year.
JACKSON: Sure.
BALDWIN: But the day after, I can understand it perhaps from the police officer's side. This is finally his chance to speak up and share his side. A good call the do it then?
JACKSON: Yes, I mean, you know, you can make the argument certainly that, as we talked about before, Brooke, you have a grieving mom. And in light of that certainly you want to respect the fact that, you know, what she's going through. And even if he's cleared, as he was by a grand jury, you know, perhaps it's not the appropriate time. But you knew it was going to come out at some time and, therefore, you know, information like this doesn't stay bottled up too long and so it was -- the decision was made to move it forward, to see what he had to say.
BALDWIN: OK.
GUSTER: And with them releasing the transcripts, his version was already out there, so he wanted to put a face with his words.
BALDWIN: Yes.
JACKSON: Absolutely.
BALDWIN: With his statement.
Eric Guster and Joey Jackson, thank you both very much.
GUSTER: Thank you.
BALDWIN: I really, really appreciate it.
JACKSON: Thanks. BALDWIN: We are back to the coverage here in just a moment. But next, a nor'easter, right now, wreaking havoc on holiday travel, yikes, causing big time delays at the airport and making roads quite dangerous. We will show you both, next.
Plus, any moment now, President Obama will be pardoning a turkey. Good ole Thanksgiving tradition here in the U.S. Stay right here. We'll take it live. You're watching CNN.
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