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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Gunman Targets Buildings in Austin; Boycotting Shopping in Ferguson; Holiday Spending Increases; Drugs in Michael Brown's System

Aired November 28, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: It may be black and blue Friday by the time all the pushing and shoving is over with. Adults acting like kids. Kids nearly getting trampled. But just think of the money you're saving, right?

Also this hour, a perspective on the Michael Brown shooting unlike any other we've heard. What this man has done in the days since cops killed his son to teach a lesson to everyone on both sides of the Ferguson fight.

And, they fought and died for free speech, but the founding fathers didn't foresee fear mongering on Facebook or life-threatening tweets, so now the Supreme Court's got to deal with it.

Hello, everyone. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Ashleigh Banfield on this Friday. Great to have you along with us, and welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

And we begin this Friday with breaking news in Austin, Texas, where a gunman opened fire early this morning in downtown, targeting the Mexican consulate, federal courthouse, and Austin police headquarters. That's where a police officer opened fire and the suspect is now dead. What makes this story especially frightening, police found what appeared to be an explosive device inside a vehicle. But just a short time ago at a news conference, the police chief said it wasn't what they thought it was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF ART ACEVEDO, AUSTIN POLICE: We didn't find any explosive devices on the suspect, or on him or in the suspect's vehicle. Again, the officer's first suspicions that we have these cylinders in the vehicle, well, that's exactly what it looks like he was trying to do, is use it as a weapon to try to burn down the Mexican consulate. So when you see those -- any time you see a guy engage in this kind of behavior, this violent anti-everything behavior, government behavior, if you will, you have to think about explosives and IEDs, especially when you see cylinders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Victor Blackwell joins me now to discuss really a disturbing story here, Victor. What more do we know about the suspect?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know he's a 50-year-old white man who lives in Austin - or lived in Austin. They've confirmed that he is now dead. They had not released his name, but we do know that he has a criminal history. No details on those crimes yet.

But you have to think that this was at about 2:20 local time when this all happened. The bars had just let out. It was a holiday. And downtown Austin was crowded. Reports of shots fired. We now know that hundreds of rounds police say were fired at a BB&T Bank branch there, the federal courthouse, a Mexican consulate and the Austin Police Department headquarters there.

Also, there was a mention from the police chief, Art Acevedo there, of a cylinder in front of the Mexican consulate. We've been told that that was a small propane cylinder. There was a fire inside -- outside the consulate building, but it was put out before there was any damage done to the building.

Now, in discussion of those cylinders, Pam, we're told that when the officers approached him after he was shot by an officer who was securing horses, holding the horses with one hand and fired a single shot in the man's direction, that the officers went to him and saw there were cylinders inside the van, but they were not sure if those were explosives. He was wearing a vest. They didn't know if it was a protective vest or a suicide type vest. So they backed away and called in the bomb squad. Both the vest and those cylinders were cleared.

And I want to clear something up. I said shot by the officer. The medical examiner will have to determine if that shot from the officer's gun killed this man or if that was some self-inflicted gun wound.

But the question now is, why did this happen? Why did this man fire hundreds of rounds in downtown Austin? Well, listen to the police chief. He suggests that political rhetoric could be possibly the motive here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ACEVEDO: If you look at a person shooting up the Mexican consulate, you know, and then - and then the federal building, there's a pretty -- and this is all speculation, but when you look at the national debate right now about immigration, that certainly comes to mind. And one of the things that I -- frustrations as an American for me and as a police officer and as a police chief is that sometimes our political discourse becomes very heated and sometimes very angry and sometimes the rhetoric is not healthy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: And they'll be searching his social media accounts, if he has any, to find out if that is indeed why he went on this shooting spree.

One other note. A reporter in the room asked if the police would be searching this man's home, and the chief there said that in these searches, they have to assume that there are booby traps and they will treat that location as a threat, although no confirmation that there were any explosives inside the vehicle or inside that man's home.

Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Victor Blackwell, thank you very much.

BLACKWELL: Sure.

BROWN: Well, it's Black Friday, and we all know what that means. Not just deals, but brawls over deals. This right here was the scene at a Walmart in Michigan City, Indiana. The big bargain, Sony speakers. And inevitably, someone always gets taken away in a police car, right? Well, this time a man and a woman apparently got into a fight over a $5 Barbie doll in Los Angeles. One witness said the woman socked the guy in the face.

But in Ferguson, Missouri, and other cities nationwide, a much different tone. Instead of Black Friday, protesters were calling it Brown Friday. Multiple groups are asking people to boycott shopping and major retailers to raise awareness about the police system nationwide that they claim unfairly and illegally victimizes African- Americans.

And the grand jury's decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson in Michael Brown's death has definitely taken a toll on businesses, and not just the ones impacted by looting and fires. Our Jason Carroll is live now at a Walmart in Ferguson, Missouri, and Ted Rowlands is in Chicago, where people are protesting at a park on Michigan Avenue.

Jason, I'm going to start with you here. First off, can you explain to us the purpose of this boycott?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what they're trying to do is draw more of an economic attention on to this issue. They've already had their voices heard here in the streets of Ferguson. They're trying to broaden that out by boycotting stores such as Target. We saw a protest there last night. And Walmart here as well.

But when you look at the parking lot, look, you can take a look behind me, you can see that the parking lot is basically full. And I think what you're going to end up seeing here is a sort of compare and contrast. We've got big businesses like Walmart and Target, but these are the big corporations that are going to weather this storm.

Pamela, it's really the smaller businesses that are really suffering here. Sam's Meat Market there on West Florissant that was looted not once but twice, then burned, it shut down. You've got a laundry mart there on the corner - a laundry mart there on the corner of West Florissant, shut down, burned as well. These are the small businesses that have been serving this community for years. These are the small business owners that are struggling right now, trying to figure out if they're ever going to be - ever going to be able to reopen. So in terms of the economic impact, it's already been felt here. But it's being felt by the small business owners, not the big corporations like Walmart or Target.

Pamela. BROWN: Yes, it's really a shame what these small business owners there are having to go through.

Ted, I'm going to turn to you now. You're in Chicago. Are the protesters there disruptive, peaceful? What's it like there?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very peaceful, Pamela. They've been out here for about 90 minutes and there's about 50 to 100 people out here. They're very vocal, but very peaceful.

We're in a park on Michigan Avenue and all around us are stores and shoppers and police. They're watching this protest very carefully. The protesters are welcome to stay in this park for as long as they want, but they cannot disturb the day's commerce at any of these stores. So you have police literally outside every one of these stores which surrounds this park. And, so far, they have been very peaceful and they haven't moved an inch. We'll see what happens as the day progresses.

BROWN: All right, keep us posted. Jason Carroll, Ted Rowlands, thank you very much.

Well, it's a reason to protest in Ferguson, but for some people, Black Friday just means fighting for the deals. Shoppers flooded into Macy's in a pretty orderly fashion here. But in some places, people actually fought. We have that video right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When grown men and women fight over a Barbie, when a mosh pit (ph) forms over a flat screen TV, you know it's Black Friday. A time when the doors bust open and someone inevitably gets busted up, trampled in the rush for a deal. Deborah Feyerick looks at the highs and lows.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Overnight, the hunt for bargains across the nations becoming a contact sport. Police prying these shoppers off the floor of this Walmart in Houston, Texas, refusing to let go of a discounted TV. One police officer even grabbing this shopper by the face and throwing him to the ground. Tempers flare at this Walmart in Michigan City, Indiana, with shoppers clamoring for a bargain on Sony speakers. And in Los Angeles, police were called to another Walmart after a brawl broke out over a $5 Barbie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was obviously a fight between a guy and a girl over a Barbie doll. And the girl socked the guy in the face just to get the Barbie.

FEYERICK: The stampede through the front doors, a welcome sight for retailers hoping to cash in on the holiday frenzy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wouldn't be doing this if the demand was not there. FEYERICK: The National Retail Federation projected this holiday

season, spending will total nearly $617 billion, growing 4.1 percent over last year.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I rushed over here to be one of the first ones to just get everything that I need and then go home.

FEYERICK: Some shoppers camping outside for days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I bring my TV, my generator, my little tank, chairs. I let everybody have a good time.

FEYERICK: Strumming the guitar to pass the time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got in my car and drove like a GI (ph).

FEYERICK: All in an effort to grab great deals like this flat screen TV, marked down $400.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's one more 55-inch here.

FEYERICK: A convenient alternative to all the mayhem, Cyber Monday, when retailers are set to offer steep discounts online so you can avoid crushing crowds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey. Hey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Deborah Feyerick joins me now live in Jersey City, New Jersey, at the Newport Center Mall.

Great to see you, Deborah. You've been braving the crowds all morning. How is it there? Have things calmed down at all?

FEYERICK: You know, it's really interesting. The really serious shoppers, they came out yesterday, it seems. They were in the malls when they opened at 6:00 in the evening, and the peak hours, at least in this area, between 9:00 and midnight.

This is not so bad. This is sort of -- look, I can swing my arms. I'm not hitting anybody. I mean this is sort of like an ordinary weekend day or day off. The serious shoppers this morning leaving with huge bags under both arms. Here, it's sort of more modest. And what I'm finding is, is a lot of people are not only buying a couple of Christmas gifts, the majority of people I'm talking to are actually buying for themselves. So it's actually an interesting dynamic.

But the stores, they're not only pushing to get people here today, but any advertising you see in any newspaper not only says big Black Friday sales, but they're also like, or you could also go to our dotcom. So, it's interesting, they're really trying to push consumers to make sure that if they can't get here or don't want to be here, that they can actually go online, shop on Monday. So it's sort of a balance, Pam. BROWN: All right. Good - good news there. And hopefully you'll have a

chance to take advantage of some of the deals there. Deborah Feyerick, thank you very much.

And retailers are not just depending on today's sales, but a strong month in these short weeks before Christmas. CNN Money business correspondent Alison Kosik joins me now.

Alison, we were just talking about this. So as we look ahead to the holiday shopping season, it's obviously the most important time of the year for retailers. Is it looking optimistic?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It is really looking optimistic. And Deb mentioned that the National Retail Federation is expecting sales to rise 4 percent this year. Last year they rose 3.1 percent. So a bit of an improvement there.

Another good point to make, things - conditions, at least, of the economy are looking better. There was a CNN/ORC poll showing specifically how Americans are feeling about the economy, and 32 percent say it's recovering. 41 percent say it's stabilized. Now, 26 percent say the economy's getting worse, but that's an improvement from 40 percent around this time last year.

Also helping, at least retailers are hoping will help sales this year, gas prices are lower, so that puts more money in our pockets. We can spend more. The weather is better. Remember the polar vortex?

BROWN: Oh, yes.

KOSIK: That was holding on tight around this time last year. It kept people inside. Also the threat of a federal government shutdown. That was also happening around this time last year. That is no longer here as well.

And you're seeing these really deep discounts. They're trying to lure -- these retailers are trying to lure shoppers in, which seems to be working.

BROWN: And especially because the window is smaller this year.

KOSIK: It is.

BROWN: And it was last year as well. You only have four weeks. Normally it's five weeks, depending on (INAUDIBLE).

KOSIK: Right, and that's why you may - and that's why you may see the push of Black Friday getting earlier and earlier.

BROWN: Right.

KOSIK: I don't know about you, but in my e-mail box, I started my Black Friday shopping on Tuesday and Wednesday because even retailers realize time is short to get these people in to shop.

BROWN: And let's talk about what's most important to retailers as far as how the consumer shops. There are so many options now. You can brave the crowds, as we talked about. There's mobile, desktops. What's most important for retailers?

KOSIK: I think it all is. You know, the way retailers see it, they'll take whatever they can get, whether you walk in their store or you go online. But, interestingly enough, you're seeing the brick-and-mortar stores, the foot traffic is really down, especially when you compare what's happening online. A lot of us are really going online. That's where the growth area is. In fact, online shopping is expected to increase 8 percent this year. You're seeing overall spending increasing 4 percent. That includes everything. But what retailers are really seizing on is that online shopping, it seems to be the most convenient for everybody.

BROWN: Not surprising, if you think about it, instead of going to the mall, having to find parking, braving the crowds -

KOSIK: Yes.

BROWN: You can just sit on your couch and -

KOSIK: And - and a lot of the deals that you're getting in the stores are online. So, why not.

BROWN: Which is -- which is great news.

KOSIK: Yes.

BROWN: Alison Kosik, thank you very much.

KOSIK: You got it.

BROWN: We appreciate it.

And moving back to Ferguson, Missouri, now. Some details in the grand jury transcripts are raising a few eyebrows. One is how much the prosecutor focused on marijuana. We'll get the LEGAL VIEW on next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: So why would somebody who was running away from a police officer, somebody who had been shot by that officer at close range moments before, turn around and charge that officer? As Darren Wilson says, Michael Brown did on Canfield Drive in Ferguson, Missouri, August 9th? Transcripts from the grand jury probe that led to no charges filed against Wilson showed that prosecutors struggled with that very question and they kept coming back to one theory, that one theory which they never came close to proving, wax.

That's slang for a super concentrated form of THC, the active ingredient in pot. Autopsy results show that Brown had THC in his system. And soon after the killing, Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson, told police about a conversation Brown had with a construction worker who saw the teen had marijuana on him and suggested he try waxing. So, what? So now I bring in defense attorney Midwin Charles and CNN legal analyst Paul Callan to talk about this. First of all, wax. This is personally the first time I've ever heard

of this. There's so, obviously, a lot to learn. The question, does it cause aggression? And even, if so, is there any proof evidence that Brown had wax, did wax? Why would this be brought up so many times in the grand jury testimony?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, first, waxing is sort of - I mean if - hashhesh (ph) is a concentrated form of THC in marijuana, whereas waxing does that with weed itself apparently. It's sort of -- to make it into a concentrated, more powerful substance. But, you know, in reading this, what surprised me, number one was, how ignorant the two prosecutors seemed to be about the process. I mean it was like they hadn't even researched it and looked into it before they started asking sort of vague, general questions of one of the witnesses. And usually you'd expect prosecutors to have a little more sophisticated knowledge of drug culture if you're going to be injecting that into a case.

MIDWIN CHARLES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That's a good point.

BROWN: I want to get your thoughts, Midwin. Do you think that focusing on this, focusing on the potential marijuana use, was just a reasonable line of questioning to try to figure out maybe what may have been behind Michael Brown's behavior that Wilson claimed, or do you think that it was -- they were trying to force a narrative here?

CHARLES: It's not reasonable if you want to get an indictment. And if you are trying to force a narrative or sort of try to create a defense for Officer Darren Wilson, then yes, it is the appropriate line of reasoning to go into. But what I find interesting most about it is, even if Michael Brown had these high levels of THC in his system, a lot of us know that marijuana usually doesn't have people acting crazy and attacking police officers. Two states allow marijuana use for adult recreational use right now. Twenty-one states allow medicinal use of marijuana and you don't have people acting crazy and attacking police officers. So this sort of narrative that he was high on THC and perhaps might have attributed to the actions that Darren Wilson said that he did is sort of a misnomer.

CALLAN: Well, you know, of course, all 50 states have legal alcohol consumption, and we know that that can make people crazy under certain circumstances. So it depends. Drugs, alcohol have different effects on different people.

Now, I will say, the studies, they don't seem to be studies indicating that, you know, marijuana use makes you violent. I'm sure there might be isolated cases where it happens. But there's very little statistics about it. There's very little quantification of it, like there is with alcohol, which has been studied heavily.

CHARLES: They -

CALLAN: And they were looking here to try to explain what looked to be violent behavior, not in the shooting itself, but in the convenience store robbery.

BROWN: Right.

CALLAN: That's where it came up in the context of that before the grand jury.

BROWN: Right, there is that.

CHARLES: Which is odd, though, because if you're a prosecutor and you are trying to get an indictment, which, by the way, is your job, right? This isn't, you know, "America's Next Top Grand Jury." Your job is to get an indictment and you do that by providing selective materials, selective evidence, and very focused and very narrowly tailored evidence to that grand jury. So by -

CALLAN: Well, Midwin and I had a great disagreement about that.

CHARLES: OK, I know, because we do.

CALLAN: Your job is - your job is not to get an indictment.

CHARLES: We do.

CALLAN: Your job is to do justice.

CHARLES: Yes, it is.

CALLAN: And your job is to -

BROWN: But the prosecutor didn't think he --

CALLAN: A lot of times grand juries dismiss because there's no case there.

CHARLES: Actually, not a lot of times. Over 90 percent of grand juries return a true bill.

CALLAN: Well, I don't know which grand juries you're talking about but I've -

CHARLES: Well, I would think a majority of federal ones do - the federal ones do.

CALLAN: Well, this is a - this is a state case and I spent -

CHARLES: And many state ones do as well.

CALLAN: Well, I don't know, you ever present a case to a grand jury in Manhattan?

CHARLES: I have. Absolutely. And Brooklyn.

CALLAN: Well, I don't - you know, maybe a federal grand jury but not a state one because they dismiss a lot of cases.

CHARLES: They don't.

CALLAN: So all - for instance, in Manhattan, all cop shootings are presented totally objectively the a grand jury and the vast majority of them result in dismissals. That's in Manhattan.

CHARLES: And that's a great -- and that's a very great point, they are presented objectively and you have to ask yourself whether or not the prosecutor who presents objectively actually wants an indictment. And you have to ask that because other cases aren't presented that way and you -

CALLAN: Well, they don't result in an indictment. They don't' result in indictments, yes.

BROWN: In this case (INAUDIBLE) he said he wanted to be neutral, let the grand jury decide.

CALLAN: Yes.

BROWN: You know, he says he just wanted them to look at all of the - all of the evidence.

CHARLES: But that's now how it's supposed to work.

BROWN: Look at all sides of it so that they could make a decision based on all the evidence that they see.

CALLAN: Correct.

BROWN: Then do you think it is fair -

CHARLES: But that's inaccurate.

BROWN: Paul, that they would present this as perhaps a theory to explore with the marijuana angle?

CALLAN: Well, no, I think it's a legitimate area for a grand jury to hear about, if the evidence supported it one way or the other. What my objection to the way they approached it is that it sounded like they didn't know anything about it. You know, usually when a prosecutor puts a witness in front of a grand jury, they have previously questioned the witness and they would say to the witness, well, waxing, tell us about waxing, because these construction workers, by the way, the back story is that the construction workers had this conversation with Johnson, as you mentioned, prior to the convenience store robbery. So there was sort of a hint that maybe these guys were familiar with waxing and -- so I would have expected --

BROWN: But Brown said that he didn't --

CALLAN: Well, Brown - well, there was no evidence that Brown had waxed. And the construction workers --

BROWN: Right. And he said that he didn't know about it.

CALLAN: Yes, and the construction workers, by the way, said they talked to Dorian Johnson, not to Michael Brown about it.

CHARLES: Which is why this was a tangent that doesn't make any sense if you are presenting information to a grand jury, and you want an indictment with respect to whether or not a crime occurred. A probable cause standard, which is very low.

BROWN: But some would say that it may have been even more fair in that the prosecutor may have not thought there was enough evidence for an indictment, so the fact that he brought it to a grand jury actually made the process more fair. That argument's being made as well.

CHARLES: But if a prosecutor wants an indictment, usually they get it and they do it by presenting focused, simple information.

CALLAN: Well, I think -- I think here they just wanted a fair presentation of the evidence, you know.

BROWN: OK, guys, I've got to keep the show moving here.

CALLAN: So - OK.

BROWN: But thank you so much.

CALLAN: (INAUDIBLE). OK.

BROWN: Paul Callan, Midwin Charles, we really do appreciate it.

Well, one man knows all too well the grief the Brown family is feeling. Michael Bell (ph) lost his son in a police shooting and the police were cleared of wrong doing. He joins me live next to talk about Ferguson and what he thinks about Officer Darren Wilson's side of the story.

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