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Ray Rice's Suspension Lifted; Pope Francis Has Three-Day Trip To Turkey Planned; Missouri's Lieutenant Governor Calls For Brown's Stepfather To Be Arrested And Charged With Inciting A Riot

Aired November 29, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Here in the CNN NEWSROOM, I'm Suzanne Malveaux.

Don't expect protests in Ferguson, Missouri, to fade from the headlines any time soon. A demonstration last night resulted in 16 arrests, including one for assaulting a police officer. Police say all those arrested, only one was from the state. Nine were from New York, three were from Illinois, two are from California and one was from Iowa.

Well, right now, a week-long protest march organized by the NAACP is about to begin. Now, it aims to keep the issue front and center before the American people. This is called journey for justice. The march is going to take protesters from Ferguson to the state capitol, about 135 miles.

By next Friday, organizers expect to rally outside the governor's mansion in Jefferson City. Now the primary goal of the march is to demand a change in leadership at the Ferguson police department and for improved relations between the police and minorities around the country.

Our Ed Lavandera, he is in Ferguson and he is joining us here. There was a service at the St. Louis church just a short while ago. What was behind this message?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the organizers of this are really trying to tap in, one of the things, trying to tap into the civil rights movement of the 1960s with the march, kind of reminiscent of the marches between Selma and Montgomery. So they are kind of tapping into that history of the civil rights movement.

But as you mentioned right off the top is calling attention to what they want to see is changes in policing, developing better contact between the black community and police forces, not only specifically here in Ferguson but as well as the communities across the country.

We're here on Canfield. And this the memorial site where Michael Brown was shot and killed by police officer Darren Wilson back in August. It has become a gathering spot. It is also going to be the launching point for the NAACP sponsored march that should begin here at any moment. They have been making their way from the community service. Then they will come out this way out to Florissant, west Florissant, which has been the side of all of the more violent and most destructive rioting and looting that has taken place. So that is a place that they want to march on.

And what we have heard a lot today, Suzanne, in fact, there was just a large group of motorcycle riders that came through and they are driving around the city today. And you mentioned at the top, the 16 arrests from last night, only one of those people from the state of Missouri. And the message from a lot of the motorcycle riders is really anger and frustration with what they believe is once again a lot of people coming from outside of the area and causing a lot of the problems, instigating a lot of confrontations with police officers and National Guard soldiers that are deployed to protect government buildings, city buildings and businesses as well.

But, you know, the organizers of this march today, as soon as it gets started here in a short while, really want the images of these peaceful nonviolent protests, the marching people coming together to overtake the violent and the -- the violent images and instigating images that you see between some protesters and the police force here in Ferguson. And they hope what they unfold over the course of the next seven years will go toward doing that -- Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: All right, Ed. Yes, I know that people are really trying to take advantage of the window of opportunity to reach well. Everyone has the tension around the country, even around the world on Ferguson to give that message what to do next about this issue between the police and the community particularly with black men.

Ed, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Moving on to Pope Francis. He is reaching out to Muslims during his three-day trip to Turkey. Now, the Pope led a mass assembled today. And he also toured two important religious sites, including a 17th century mosque. Now, the Pope's visit comes amid heightened tensions between Christians and Muslims.

Our senior Vatican analyst John Allen is joining us from Istanbul and he also an associate editor of "the Boston Globe" and "Crux." It is a site that is covering the Catholic Church.

John, thanks for joining us today. Give us the significance of the visit. Why is this so important at this time?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Suzanne.

Well, I think you have to divide the significance into two. Yesterday, day one of the trip, was really directed at Turkey and sort of through Turkey to the entire Muslim world. And at that level, I think the Pope's message was one of dialogue and friendship. But at the same time, he also wanted to press on the issue of religious freedom, the protection of religious minorities across the Middle East including in a particular way the increasingly beleaguered Christian minority in this part of the world. Now today and tomorrow are more focused on what Christians called

Ecumenism. That is the effort to put the divided Christian family back together. In a particular way, outreach to the eastern orthodox trying to heal the split between eastern and western Christianity that goes all the way back to 1054.

Tonight, the Pope led a joint prayer service with patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople. But tomorrow, he will attend the orthodox liturgy. And then the two spiritual leaders are going to put out a joint declaration pledging both of their churches to the press for closer ties. So basically, the significance here, Suzanne, is at one level trying to come to a meeting of minds with mainstream Islamic leaders and the fight against religious extremism and in another level, trying to put the divided Christian house back in order.

MALVEAUX: And John, let's talk about visiting Turkey specifically because it was back in 2006 that Pope Benedict visited the same Istanbul mosque. And the Vatican said that he was meditating there, that he did not pray. And the same is going for Pope Francis this time.

Tell us the difference here, the clarification between meditating and praying. What is the significance?

ALLEN: Well, Suzanne, I think this may be an object lesson and the difference between Vatican spin and what actually happened because I was there when Benedict was in the blue mosque in 2006. And at the time, of course, what happened is that the Pope and the grand (INAUDIBLE) of Istanbul, paused and bowed their hands in front of the (INAUDIBLE). That's the niche in every mosque that faces the direction of Mecca.

The Vatican afterwards tried to spin that as a kind of moment of reflection. They are very allergic to using prayer. But I can tell you, Suzanne, on his way out of the mosque, Pope Benedict actually said to the Muslim (ph), thank you for this moment of prayer.

So as far as I'm concerned, if the Pope is using the "p" word, that is the pope was calling it prayer, then I think we are licensed to call it prayer.

MALVEAUX: All right. Good point there, John. Appreciate it. Have a good holiday.

Egypt's former ruler could soon be a freeman. That's right. Former president Hosni Mubarak was effectively cleared today in a retrial of charges linking him to the deaths of hundreds of protesters. This you'll recall back in 2011.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

MALVEAUX: So you heard it there. Mubarak supporters cheering after a Cairo judge dismissed the charges stemming from the revolution that toppled him from power. The 86-year-old who ruled Egypt for 29 years was convicted in 2012. Mubarak's two sons in several age were also acquitted today of similar charges including corruption. It is still unclear when Mubarak could be released. He is also serving a three- year sentence for a separate conviction for embezzlement.

And up next, did Michael Brown's stepfather in cite a riot with his words after the grand jury decision in Ferguson? Well, some are saying that he did. We want you to be the judge when he yelled at protesters this week.

And then, another case that is provoking sharp debate this week. An arbitrator decided Ray Rice can play football again. But should he? A video of him hitting his then fiancee lead to his exile from the NFL. Well soon, a team could bring him back. Does he deserve a second chance? Our panel of contributors debating up ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: For six days, we have watched as people take to the streets in Ferguson and around the country to protest the grand jury decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the killing of Michael Brown. And amid those demonstrations, there were several events that actually stood out among the rest.

I'm going to bring in our clinical psychologist Jeff Gardere to discuss that.

Jeff, always good to see you here. Let's talk about this first one. The first incident that occurred, it was just moments after the grand jury made their announcement. And it shows Brown's mother breaking down, understandably of course, and speaking to crowds that gathered outside the police station.

Now, despite calling for peace in the months leading up to this grand jury announcement, her husband, Brown's stepfather, he spoke up with a different message. And I want us to watch this together and get your take on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: I have been here my whole life. I never had to go through nothing like this. Don't none of you all know me, but I don't do nothing to nobody. Anybody say so, they're a liar. They're a damn liar. (INAUDIBLE).

LOUIS HEAD, MICHAEL BROWN'S STEPFATHER: This is somebody's son. That was somebody's son. You all murdered her (bleep) son. Burn the (bleep) down. Burn this (bleep) down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: OK. So we have watched this together. You heard those words. And Missouri's lieutenant governor, he is now calling for Brown's stepfather to be arrested and charged with inciting a riot.

Now, Michael Brown's mother, she says that their emotions, you know, they were raging. They spoke out of anger, that there was so much frustration.

Jeff, can you break this down for us? Because, you know, I can't imagine what it would be like to lose a child and to feel like justice was not served here. But does the stepfather, does he have a responsibility for what he said in that crowd afterwards?

JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think anyone in that kind of a situation certainly has a responsibility knowing that it is a tinder box. At the same time, even though it's a stepson, it is still is his son. This is Louis Head's son. And so, we see that this was at a fever pitch, this verdict had just come back. People were surrounding them. People were very, very upset. And I think both his stepdad and his mom do feel a lot of guilt about this right now. And they know it was not the right thing to do.

But when you lose your son and in this kind of a circumstance, and believe me, Suzanne, this goes beyond Michael Brown. This goes around issues of police relations and institutional racism that has been going on for years and years. And so, I think all of this just came to a fever pitch. And I think it's regrettable that it happened. But it did the happen. And I hope it doesn't happen again.

MALVEAUX: Jeff, when you look at this in hindsight, I mean, do you think that there should have been some consideration for whether or not they should have been in the crowd in the first place? If there could have been like a quiet place, I mean. Because this we all knew was going to be very emotional, that it was going to be very confrontational and the people at the very center of this feeling this the most were those parents.

GARDERE: Well, you're absolutely correct. They should have been debriefed. They should have been in a private space. They should have been in a place where they could talk to someone instead of being in the center of the crowd, in the epicenter, the ground zero where emotions were running so high.

Several days we know Michael Brown's mother said we don't want rioting. This is not the way to get the message in order to bring us all together as blacks, whites, and others. This is what we need to continue to do into the future, to get people to the talk to one another. Again, I would say what they said, yes, it was irresponsible. But it was absolutely understandable the grief and the rage that they had.

MALVEAUX: And let's talk about incident number two because this really goes to what we saw in the aftermath, Ferguson up in flames. The rioters were looting, burning down businesses. And this was in their owned community. If you look at some of the people who were inside the community doing this, there has been and we know a deep- seeded distrust between the police and the Ferguson community.

Give us a sense of what you think was going on in the minds of those who essentially were burning down what was in their own neighborhood, which in some ways doesn't make sense when you think about the destruction of your own people, your owned community you're your businesses the next day.

GARDERE: Well, one word for that and its rage. And when we have rage, when we're not in control of our emotions, we make some of the most regrettable decisions. We do some of the most stupid and destructive things. And that's what we saw happening here.

I mean, take a situation, Suzanne, where, for example, a major athletic team wins a world championship. What do people do? They start rioting. They start burning things down. They start burning down businesses. It's because they're not in charge of their emotions. Does it make it right? Absolutely it does not.

However, I think we need to learn from these situations that when something is so explosive, when it's so emotional, we must take the time, as you said, to debrief, to talk to one another. Because at the end of the day, even though we see that this rioting is -- we see that it's wrong. It does happen. And we have to minimize that. We're not getting the message out as far as in equality by doing this. All we're doing, if nothing else is making the situation much worse.

All the civil rights leaders have come out and said this rioting is absolutely wrong. We must learn nonviolent ways to be able to get the message so the memory of Michael Brown and others who unfortunately have died can be given in a more constructive manner. We have to talk about race. We have to talk about in equality. Burning down properties is not the way to do it.

MALVEAUX: Yes. Certainly you're right about that, Jeff.

We want to get your take on the Darren Wilson interview. He spoke at length about Michael Brown's strength. And a lot of people found that interesting. And he also spoke about how he was afraid that he could have been killed.

Here are photos of Brown's injuries. That's actually Wilson's injuries. We're going to talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MALVEAUX: One day after the grand jury's decision, Officer Darren Wilson went public. In a 90-minute interview with ABC, Wilson explained what happened in the moments before he shot Brown, even comparing him to wrestler Hulk Hogan. I want you to take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE: I used my door to try to push him back and yelled at him to get back. And again, he just pushed the door shut and just stares at me. And as I looked back (INAUDIBLE), punches start flying.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: He threw the first punch.

WILSON: Yes. He threw the first one and hit in the left side of my face. So there is barrage of swinging, and grabbing, and pulling, for about 10 seconds.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And then what?

WILSON: I reached out the window to grab on to his forearm. I was going to move him back and get out of the car for I'm no longer trap. And what I felt, I just felt the immense power that he had. And the way I described it is just like a 5-year-old holding on to Hulk Hogan. That's just how big this man was.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Hulk Hogan?

WILSON: He was very large, very powerful man.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You're a pretty big guy.

WILSON: Yes. I'm above average.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you tried to grab him but you feel that force.

WILSON: Yes. And then as I'm holding him, I see him coming back with his left hand. And it is in the shape like this, and it came through the window and just a solid punch to the right side of my face.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And you're sitting there figuring how do I get out of this?

WILSON: Yes. I mean, that was actually is how do I survive?

STEPHANOPOULOS: How would you survive?

WILSON: Yes. I didn't know if I would be able to withstand another hit like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: (INAUDIBLE) is our psychologist Jeff Gardere.

And Jeff, I have a number of questions on this one here. But first of all, do you think he is giving an honest account of what happened or rather something that his attorneys said would be appropriate to describe?

GARDERE: Well, it's very hard to tell. I'm sure his attorneys have told him where to go and where to stay away from. But just looking at his body language, the tone of his voice and so on, the affect that seems to be steady all the way through. I watched several of the interviews and watched them several times.

So in his mind, I would give him the benefit of the doubt that, yes, he was very, very much afraid and perhaps was not in control of the situation the way he needed to be. Now, we have to start looking at, well, did that have something to do with his training? Did it have something to do with perhaps the way that he viewed this individual? Perhaps, and I don't know. I wasn't in his head. Perhaps in a way that was exacerbated in a way that he probably might not have looked at someone else who may have been from a different background.

MALVEAUX: Yes. I want to talk a little bit about that because it seems a bit dehumanize him to talk about him in the way of Hulk Hogan. He called him demonic or a demon. Do you think that that has something to do with the way he perceived him?

GARDERE: Well, I think it has a lot to do with perhaps, the way the he behaved where as he said, he felt his life was in danger. He was not in control of that situation as a police officer should be and I'm not criticizing him. Again, I wasn't there and I don't have police training. But from what I'm hearing he was afraid for his life. The question becomes did he have reason to be so afraid for his life instead of trying to subdue the situation and ended up killing someone who was unarmed.

MALVEAUX: All right. Jeff, we have to leave it there. Jeff Gardere, it is good to see you as always. Have a good weekend.

GARDERE: Pleasure. Thank you.

MALVEAUX: There is more fallout from the grand jury decision and the Ray Rice appeal. Was it the right call? We've got four of our top CNN contributors to talk about it.

But first we want to talk about this. We are counting down the days until CNN Heroes all-star tribute. Until then, what about the last year's top honoree? Our Anderson Cooper checked in on him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, AC 360 (voice-over): In 17 years, Chad Pregracke and his team picked up eight million pounds of trash from America's rivers. Last November, for his inspiring work, Chad picked up a big honor.

The 2013 CNN hero of the year is Chad Pregracke.

One year later we caught up with him to get an inside look at what he does and how he does it.

At the heart of his work is a massive 800-org stores the huge piles of trash of Chad's team collects. It looks like a floating junk yard but --

CHAD PREGRACKE, 2013 CNN HERO WINNER: Welcome to CNN friends (ph).

COOPER: It's also Chad's part time home.

PREGRACKE: So pretty much everything is reclaimed or recycled out of the old buildings, old barns.

COOPER: The goal is serious but there's definitely a quick in this work.

PREGRACKE: So this would be our creepy doll collection. Why do we have it? I really don't have any idea other than we find a lot of creepy dolls.

COOPER: And trash isn't all he needs to look out for on the river.

PREGRACKE: One of the safety concerns is actually the flying carp. They really do fly out of the water in high speed and they get rather big.

COOPER: It's all part of Chad's work, work that also includes growing trees. Chad started this environmental effort in 2007 but he was able to expand it after being named CNN Hero of the year. In the end Chad's crusade is about much more than cleaning rivers.

PREGRACKE: It's about people taking action in their own communities and that's what it's all about. That's how you change the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hello and welcome. I'm Sally Kohn joined today by Sunny Hostin, Mel Robbins and Margaret Hoover.

Ray Rice is now eligible to return to NFL football. And his wife Janay is revealing what happened immediately after Rice punched her in that casino elevator last February. Rice tells -- Jana Rice tells NBC today she gave Rice the silent treatment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANAY RICE, RAY RICE'S WIFE: I was furious. We came home and we didn't talk the entire ride. Well, I didn't speak to him the entire ride home. He tried to talk to me. I didn't want to the hear anything. I just knew he hit me and I was completely over it. I was done. I didn't want to hear anything. I just didn't even want to entertain him, anything he had to say, any explanation. Of course, in the back of my mind and heart I knew that our relationship wouldn't be over. Because I know this isn't us and it's not him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOHN: So does Ray Rice deserve a second chance on the football field? Does the NFL need to clean house after bungling the controversy?

Mel, what do you think? This judge overturned the decision and said the NFL was wrong.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR/LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

KOHN: They basically ruled that he think they punished Ray Rice twice.

ROBBINS: Yes.

KOHN: Then they said you can't punish him once and then a second time.

ROBBINS: Actually, you know what she said? She said he did not mislead the NFL which means Roger Goodell was lying when he said he didn't know what happens.

KOHN: Spill it out for us. What was he lying about?

ROBBINS: What is he lying about? Here's what he was lying about. Basically Roger Goodell claimed that he didn't know the extent of that incident that went down in the elevator, which was total baloney. They had the criminal court complaint. They had the outside the elevator video and Ray Rice and his wife and one other NFL personnel met with Goodell in June and told him, I hit her. I hit her is what he said.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So you have the video that we all got to see over and over again showing the true viciousness of it. But that's what domestic violence looks like. And I don't know why Roger Goodell didn't realize that that is what domestic violence looks like.

(CROSSTALK)

KOHN: So you think what happened was the NFL took more severe measures after it became public? Is that why this happens?

ROBBINS: This is what happened. So basically, the NFL is in the business to make money. They're not in the business to police domestic violence. And so, when they hear about this incident and they see the elevator video, they don't suspend him right away. They wait. They investigate. They give him a lame two-game suspension and one paycheck is what he lost.

Then when it comes out, now he's covering his ass and he is trying to figure what to do. He even called, do you this, Goodell called Ray Rice after August when he gave up with the news six-game penalty for a first time domestic violence offense and said, but you are going to be fine and said, but, you're going to be fined. When the video came out almost six days later, that is when they suspended them. Goodell is covering his ass.

HOSTIN: And that's the problem that I have actually had with this all along. We know Goodell makes $40 million a year. He's been with the league forever. He's been the Teflon commissioner. And I don't understand why that is. You bungle something like this. You tell women of the world that domestic violence doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter if your husband is seen punching you, knocking you out cold and then acting very casually over your unconscious body.

Goodell says it's OK. I think Goodell needs to lose his job. And quite frankly, I don't think that Ray Rice gets to play again.

KOHN: Margaret, what do you think?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What I thought was very compelling was Ray Rice's wife's statements, her interview, her testimony. She has a lot of material out there that you can examine. And as a woman you can judge whether this looks like repeated domestic violence that happened over and over again and a woman making excuses for her man. You know, we have seen a lot of cases that is in popular culture. I mean, you look at cases like pop star Rihanna and her thuggish boyfriend Chris Brown. You heard it here.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: But Chris Brown -- I'm not being apologetic for Chris Brown, you know. Isn't one strike enough? He hit her once. It doesn't matter if (INAUDIBLE). Chris Brown hit Rihanna once. We're all outrage that Chris Brown hit Rihanna once because we saw Rihanna's pictures. We saw the video. Why is it OK, even if Janay is saying it's not OK.

ROBBINS: It is not OK, but here is the thing. You do want people to reform. And by all appearances Ray Rice has done the work. He has gone to the court mandated program. He and his wife were going to counseling. He has sobered up. He is like done everything that you want --

(CROSSTALK)

KOHN: There's Mel, the defense attorney, arguing for forgiveness. It does seems to me a little bit annoying, though, that you know, you take this into account, you take the horrible story of the University of Virginia rape that happened documented by the "Rolling Stone" article where the woman is traumatized forever and the guy gets away Scott free. At least Bill Cosby, why do men keep getting away with this crap?

But anyway, OK, coming up after everything we have seen in Ferguson, speaking of injustice, how do we remember Michael Brown? Is he a teen looking forward to college or was he a trouble maker in the eyes of some people who robbed a convenience store just moments before he was killed or does it matter? Does this conversation have actually nothing to do with the national protests against police violence?

Ahead, we will hear what Michael Brown's parents said to our very own Sunny Hostin when she interviewed them. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROBBINS: Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins here with Sunny, Margaret and Sally.

And this week, Sunny had a chance to not only report from Ferguson, Missouri. She actually sat down with Michael Brown's family.

Sunny, what's it like?

HOSTIN: You know, it was -- you hate to meet people under those circumstances. But it was interesting because I approached it sort of mother to mother, right? Mother to father. And their pain was really palpable. I mean, these are grieving parents. And what struck me was they are in the public eye. When you're a politician or you are on television, you put yourself there. And so, you know how to interact with the public.

They are completely shell shocked, completely shell shocked. And I got to know a little bit about who they knew their son to be.

ROBBINS: Well, you know, the emotion definitely came through. But what I loved is it wasn't a soft ball interview. And I really loved that you asked this question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOSTIN: So many people in America have seen this surveillance video in the convenience store. And people are saying your son was a punk. Your son was a thug. Your son was aggressive. Your son was violent. So he must have been aggressive with Officer Wilson. What do you say to that?

MCSPADDEN: I say that you cannot judge him off an 18-second video. And we have known him for 18 years. We know better. I say no. You're wrong. And you cannot look at one image of a person and present who they are in a whole. Because if that's the case, let's look at the side with Darren Wilson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBBINS: You know, I thought that was a powerful answer. But I'm going to tell the truth. I'm a criminal defense attorney. A public defender even who even saw that video and I thought that exact thing. The guy is aggressive. He's a thug. Come on, he probably assaulted the officer.

Sally, help me out with this.

KOHN: Well, OK. There's two responses. One is, so what? I mean, so what? What did we see in that 18-second video? What did we see, period? Of all the worse stuff you could throw at that kid that would justify him being shot by police, maybe arrested, maybe (INAUDIBLE). I mean, there are any number of scenarios we could play out and you say, yes, that was basically the right response to what the kid did or maybe his behavior. But shot and killed that many times on the street? That is response number one.

Response number two is a little more complicated which is we know, we know in our country that we judge, we have done the study after study. We judge people differently based on race. So there are studies where we show the computer generated images of a black face and a white face, exactly the same, except they are different by race. And more people were more likely to say, the black face, they are aggressive. They are menacing. They are scary. They are bad. So we label this behavior bad. We wouldn't necessarily -- we would explain it away if it were a white kid. We just would.

ROBBINS: OK, so that's it. I guess what I'm hearing you say is, you know, because I saw the video and I was thinking, well, if he acted that way towards a store clerk, he probably acted in an aggressive way towards the officer. What you're basically saying is you are kind of saying that to yourself because of the color of his skin.

HOOVER: And that's what this is about, right? This is about, you know, the question nationally is, is there systemic injustice, inadvertently, innocently, or explicitly against a white kid in that position versus a black kid in that position. And we know that's what's driving this conversation regardless of the facts of the case, regardless of the facts of the trial. Because I mean, that is what inspired this outrage. That is what inspired protests and violence, not only in Ferguson, but in New York City and in cities around the country the night that that verdict came down with no indictment.

HOSTIN: And I think our president said it best. I mean, he said people of color, communities of color are not making this up. These are real issues that we have with law enforcement. I mean, you both have boys. They're gorgeous. I have met them. They're wonderful. I have a boy. I think he's gorgeous.

The bottom line is if he is walking down the street doing the same exact thing that your boys are doing, he is going to arouse suspicion in a different way. It just is what it is. And the question is, what do we do about that? I mean, I saw the video too. And that's why I asked the parents the question.

(CROSSTALK)

KOHN: The 12-year-old boy, 12-year-old little black boy was killed just this past week in Cleveland, 12-year-old boy playing with a toy gun. Police rolled up and shot him. And you know what they are doing now in Cleveland, the news media in Cleveland are digging into the back ground of his parents and saying, look, was there domestic violence? Was there this? Was there that? They are smearing the parents. And same kind of thing, they are saying what would justify them being the kind of parents who would let a kid play with a gun, toy gun. 12-year-old boys all over the country play with a toy gun. When they're white, they don't get shot.

HOSTIN: That's sort of this a playbook blame the victim, smear the family. And I thought that that was something that we haven't talked about. Why was that video leaked? Because remember, it was --

ROBBINS: The Michael Brown video.

HOSTIN: It was leaked by police. I mean, they revealed they are the ones that released it and they wanted to --. Well, they wanted to the frame the conversation in this -- they wanted to sort of change the narrative instead of victim this was an aggressive kid. And I've got to tell you, looking at my twitter feed, being in Ferguson, speaking to so many people, everyone said, you know what, there's a real problem in the black community with how the community is being policed. But this is not the story to discuss it because this kid was a thug. And that is --

(CROSSTALK)

KOHN: There's nothing this kid, Michael Brown, could have done to justify -- I mean, short of actually -- in other words, nothing in his behavior beforehand. It's not nothing, I shouldn't say that.

ROBBINS: They're saying he deserved not to get shot because he did that.

KOHN: There are people who are. And let me be clear.

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: I mean, there are people on the fringes that are saying that. But she is just saying, look. If she were prosecuting the case, she would have a harder time defending them because of that --.

ROBBINS: It is just like the presumption is that he's an aggressive kid based on how I saw that.

KOHN: here is what I am saying, that I see patterns where we explain away the bad behavior of a white kid. Ten minutes earlier, they will whatever, but they have ten minutes to walk it off. They had this and we will do anything we tend to construe the behavior of like it. Whereas we systematically, not only one black kid's, you know, less an ideal behavior, but we group it all together. I have people on my twitter feed when the police crackdown in Ferguson, I have people in my twitter feed saying, that's justified because of the watts riots in 1992. I'm like, are really? We're like lumping it altogether.

HOSTIN: It is pretty remarkable.

HOOVER: We are going to -- this is what we're going to talk about when we come back. Because we are going to talk about what we are learning from this, what is the right way to have a national conversation about this and what can we take away from this.

So we'll be right back. Stay with us when we come back.

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HOOVER: Welcome back. I'm Margaret Hoover and I'm here with Sunny, Mel, and Sally.

We're talking about Ferguson and how the shooting of Michael Brown is sparking a national conversation about how the police treat black and white men differently.

And Sally, you wrote a column this week called "what white people need to do and do after Ferguson." And here's what I thought was a key part of it. Let's put it on the screen.

Black communities are ultimately protesting systems of injustice and inequality that structural help white people while systematically harming black people. Just because you're white and therefore generally benefit from those systems doesn't mean that you inherently support those systems or need to defend them. Benefiting from white privilege is automatic. Defending white privilege is a choice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Preach out.

KOHN: And for that, they call me a racist. That's what I get called now.

ROBBINS: It's nicer than what I get called.

HOOVER: Conservatives often get backed into a corner feeling they need to end up defending the systems rather than actually taking responsibility and figuring out what we do to fix them.

So here is what I want to know. We've been talking about having a national conversation. Let's actually be concrete. What does a national conversation entail? What is it going to look like? Does it mean that Paul Ryan who is the new head of the ways and means committee in Congress should have hearings on this? I mean, you know, Paul Ryan has been going to inner cities talking about, you know, injustices and inequalities. I mean, what does it really look like? Do Republicans need to take the lead? Should there be legislations? Should there be commissions? Does the president need to speak more about it?

ROBBINS: Yes, yes.

HOOVER: Mel?

ROBBINS: Yes.

HOOVER: But let's be concrete here because we grandiosely talk about a national conversation. But what actually should happen?

ROBBINS: Well, I personally think that since we live in a day and age where you have to see the punch of Ray Rice to actually do something about it, that I love the idea of the Michael Brown law and having police officers wearing body cameras. That's something that's immediately actionable. I think people would be shocked both to see what police are confronted with every single day in terms of what they face. But also it would give you a sense that you have that kind of evidence that's really important.

I focus on that because I'm very troubled by the Tamara Rice shooting and that fact that here you have a 12-year-old kid that was shot and it's going to a grand jury for review. And so, I like the Michael Brown law a lot and I would love to see a different type of system for investigating police shootings. That's what I would like to see.

HOSTIN: You know, I'm troubled by what we're seeing over and over again from Trayvon Martin's death to Jordan Davis' death to now to Michael Brown's death. I think it starts with having the national conversation. What's been very troubling to me is whenever I talk about race, I'm sure Sally has the same experience, I'm called either a race baiter or a racist. And so, we need to start being able to honestly talk about race.

HOOVER: How should we do that?

HOSTIN: Maybe it's a study. Because if you look at statistics, let's just say in 2010, right, the U.S. attorney's office brought 162,000 cases in front of the grand jury. Out of the 162,000, only 11 of them didn't get indicted.

So, now you're talking about less than one percent. So, when you look at that stat, that tells me, wow, what was so special about Michael Brown's case? So, when you talk about the stats and you have the studies to support the discussion, I think that is very helpful. So do we study, you know, officer-involved shootings of black people? Yes. FBI does that right now, but guess what? All of the police departments self-report. So it's basically based on the honor system. So the numbers just don't coincide with reality. And so, I think we need to start by gathering statistics to support the conversations, the real conversations that we need to have.

HOOVER: Sally, what does a national conversation look like to you? KOHN: Well, yes to everything Sunny and Mel said. I completely

agree. And you know, look, I think it's, to me, it's more stop shutting down the conversation. Maybe I'm sending extension of what Sunny just said. But you know, first of all, we can't have the conversation, and that goes both ways and I've said this before, you know, we have to create a safe space for people to feel like they can say naive or mistaken or confused or muddied or complicated things.

HOSTIN: Right.

KOHN: We have this sort of artificially polarized nation right now and it polarizes by politics and polarized by race. So, it was a white cop and a black victim. Well, then, if I'm white I must be on the cop's side. And if you're on the victim's side and you're anti- cop. And all of that is just so unreflective of reality.

So first of all, let's recognize that reality is more complicated. We all have complicated feelings. Number two, let's stop shutting down the conversation. The answer to you disagree with this analysis is not, you're a racist, stop the conversation. It is respond to the substance of it. Let's have the conversation. And so, you just have to actually have a conversation to have it.

And the third is I think we all need a more sophisticated understanding of what racism looks like in America today. It's not the individual Donald Sterling-type guy who says the crazy, nutty, outside the mainstream things. It's about systems. It's about implicit biases that we all share whether we realize it or not. And the more we can understand that the more you can take it out of personal responsibility and guilt and make it's just -- it is like the air we breathe. It is all around us. And so we need to start being aware of it and do something about it.

HOOVER: What did Michael Brown's parents think would come about it positively?

HOSTIN: You know, I asked them that, of course. They are -- certainly, Michael Brown's law, they want all, all police officers, to be outfitted with cameras so that we really know what happens, when we can see what happens. They also say we've got big things ahead, big things. We want our son's legacy to mean something. So, I think it's stay tuned. I think they're working on something to define what their son's legacy will be.

HOOVER: It sounds extraordinary.

Well, thank you all for joining us today. We're going to have to leave it there. We appreciate you being with us. Suzanne Malveaux is back with you with all the news that is breaking after a quick break.

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