Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Free Speech Case Examined; Young Boy Freed from an Atlanta Home; Missing Ohio State Football Player Found Dead; Ray Rice's Wife Speaks Out

Aired December 01, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN ANCHOR: Right now the Supreme Court is hearing arguments about the limits of free speech in the age of social media. A Pennsylvania man has petitioned the High Court because he spent three years in prison for posting Facebook threats against, among others an elementary school, an FBI agent, and most specifically his ex-wife.

Well, here's what Anthony Elonis wrote in 2010 when his wife moved out, took his two kids and got a court order against him. He said, "Fold up your court order, put it in your pocket. Is it thick enough to stop a bullet?"

A separate post about shooting up a kindergarten class, brought a visit from the FBI after which Elonis posted this, " Little agent lady stood so close, took all the strength I had not to turn the b-word, ghost. Pull my knife, flick my wrist, slit her throat." Well, joining me to talk about this case, with CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeff, what's fascinating is that, ultimately, it was the intent behind the messages that mattered to the jury. Were these threats that he issued both to his wife, to the school, the FBI agent, were legitimate? Is that fair?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this is -- you know, I have to say, I think this is a very hard case. The legal issue in the case is this. What the jury was instructed was would a reasonable person hearing these threats, reading these threats think that they were specific threats of violence? And the jury said yes, and does he was convicted.

What Elonis is saying in the Supreme Court is that's the wrong standard. It should be did I regard them as legitimate threats or were they simply blowing off steam, talking thrash, which is not something it should be criminalized. And that's what the Supreme Court is debating now. An objective standard, reasonable person...

FEYERICK: Right.

TOOBIN: ... versus a subjective standard what the individual thought.

FEYERICK: What fascinates me is first of all, he was posting this under an alias. He also said, you know, this is -- venting, this is protected within the First Amendment. He made it clear every time that he was doing this under First Amendment protection of free speech, just like the rapper Eminem, who posted very similar sort of lyrics who actually won awards for some of the lyrics in which he says he wants to kill his wife. So, how did that differ? If Eminem, the musician, you know, can say that why can't an ordinary citizen do it?

TOOBIN: Well, the answer is the jury decides. And that -- but that's what the issue in this case. The jury thought that this was not simply blowing off steam, artistic expression but, as you point out, there is a long tradition in this country of saying very objectionable things whether it's by Eminem, whether it's Nazis marching in Skokie, a Jewish area outside of Chicago which was certainly perceived as very threatening to the people who live there.

Obviously, Eminem was not prosecuted. The Nazis in Skokie were allowed to march after a long legal fight. And what the defendant here is saying, all I'm doing is the same thing they did, which is expressing myself admittedly in a colorful obnoxious, really ugly way.

FEYERICK: (inaudible) way, exactly.

TOOBIN: But that's why we have a First Amendment, not for conventional means...

FEYERICK: Right.

TOOBIN: ... but to protect the (inaudible).

FEYERICK: And there's also the issue that if the FBI have not acted, had not filed charges and something really bad did happened, we would be asked, you know, the other question which is why didn't they do anything. So, do you think on some levels, by filing charges against him which would be attractive to a jury saying, yeah, you know, this just doesn't fit well, that in fact they were trying to at least remove him for a little while which sometimes we know officials will do or law enforcement will do kind of put him on ice for a little bit.

TOOBIN: You know, I think that's why ultimately the government is going to win this case, precisely because of that question, what would we do afterwards? Think about all the school shootings we've had and, you know, the signs not clear, not definitive, but the signs that there was something very bad going on either in Newtown, Connecticut or Colorado.

FEYERICK: Right.

TOOBIN: And we, as a community, as a society want our government to err on the side of taking steps to at least to investigate if not (inaudible).

FEYERICK: You know, that would also make this case interesting is that domestic violence groups sided with the government and actual lyricist, rappers, sided with this young man. So we'll see what happens.

TOOBIN: Not surprising. But this is tough one.

FEYERICK: All right.

TOOBIN: This (inaudible) is going to have...

FEYERICK: Interesting. I (inaudible) expecting you to say that. Jeff Toobin, you're (inaudible) smarter. OK, thank you. Well, a mother didn't know where her son was for four years, until this weekend. That's when the child was found behind the false wall in his dad's house.

The bizarre story of this young child is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FEYERICK: A Georgia couple remains behind bars accused of abusing and hiding a teenage boy behind the false wall in their home outside Atlanta. The boy reunited with his biological mother after four years this weekend while Clayton County, Georgia police arrested the boy's father and stepmother, Gregory Jean and Samantha Joy Davis. The parents has been charged with false imprisonment, cruelty to children, and obstruction. Jean Casarez tells us how the bizarre story unfolded and resulted in a son being reunited with his mother after being missing for four years.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In Jonesboro, Georgia an emotional reunion four years in the making. As a 13-year-old boy reported missing in 2010 finally reconnected with his mother after police found them hidden in his father's home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We open the compartment where he was and I saw him and ask him to come forward and he was horrified, and he retreated away from us until he knew that those people weren't around him.

CASAREZ: The discovery was made on Friday night, after police received a tip asking them to check the home. Authorities did not find the boy during that first visit and people inside told them they had no information on the child. But during a second search, the boy reportedly was able to contact his mother who told police to look behind the false wall. One of the officers involved, opened up about the 13-year-old's reaction once he finally realized he was free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just couldn't thank us enough, he just kept saying thank you, thank you, thank you. He's overjoyed that we had found him.

CASAREZ: Neighbors of the family who moved into the home about six months ago, are absolutely stunned saying they saw the boy playing outside frequently and doing yard work. Nothing appeared out of the ordinary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother told me he was home-schooled. I don't question as far as why he was always home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's right up on our nose and we could've done something if we have known but he wasn't even in distress. He didn't seem like. CASAREZ: Police say the boy had been visiting his father in 2010 when he refused to return him to his mother in Florida. A judge has denied bond for the father and the boy's stepmother who both face charges of false imprisonment, cruelty to children, and obstruction.

It is not known if they had hired an attorney. Three other people have also been charged in connection with the incident, police didn't explain which parent has legal custody of the child or why police were not contacted sooner. Jean Casarez, CNN New York.

FEYERICK: Look at that reunion. Well, the couple accused in the case, are scheduled to be in court again December 9th. And in just about two hours, the police chief is expected to hold a news conference to announce more details in this case.

And some other top stories that we're following. The FBI has issued a warning to members of the U.S. military that ISIS is calling for attacks against them. A law enforcement who said individuals overseas are looking for people in the U.S. who support ISIS. Based on their social media post in, the FBI says U.S. military members should review their post so they don't make themselves easy targets.

Republican congressional aide has resigned after her Facebook comments after the First Daughter's (inaudible) a firestorm of criticism. Elizabeth Lauten had reacted to images of the First Daughter looking a little bored at the Thanksgiving turkey pardoning ceremony. She wrote, "Try showing a little class and dress like you deserve respect, not a spot in the bar." Lauten later apologized for those comments.

Three teenager's age 15 to 17 now in custody accused of beating a man to death in St. Louis. Police says several juveniles began damaging the man's car at Sunday as he was driving. When he got out, they began yelling at him and then beating him with hammers. His wife witnessed the attack. Police say they do not yet have a motive.

Sony Pictures is reportedly exploring the capability that North Korea played a role in a high profile hack and leak of the studio's latest big budget features. The speculation that it could be related to Sony's upcoming release of the film "The Interview", a comedy starring Seth Rogen and James Franco about an assassination attempt of a North Korean leader Kim Jong-un.

A college football player vanishes in Ohio. After days of worry, he's ultimately found dead in apparent suicide. Coming up, we're we dig in to the questions about what role concussions may have played his death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FEYERICK: In Columbus, Ohio a tragic end in the search for missing Ohio's state football player, Kosta Karageorge. His body was found in a dumpster over the weekend along with a handgun. Police say it appeared that he took his own life. Ohio state coach Urban Meyer, spoke about the loss a short time ago.

URBAN MEYER, HEAD COACH, OSU FOOTBALL: It's difficult, there's no -- like you said, there's no -- you can look in a coaching manual, I'm not sure you'll find anything. But the tighter the group, the better opportunity. You'll never get over it. It's an opportunity to, I'm not sure if learn is the appropriate word either, but just continue to grow and stay on your journey.

FEYERICK: Well, the subtext here is that Karageorge suffered from debilitating concussions. An autopsy could show how severe it was when he died and whether it could have led to a suicide.

Let's bring in CNN Legal Analysts Danny Cevallos, who is also a teacher of Health Care Law at Drexel University. With us on the phone is Dr. Robert Cantu who's co-director of the Neurological Sports Injury Center in Boston.

And Dr. Cantu, I want to start with you. Explain what an autopsy might show regarding concussions and how they may have altered either his brain chemistry or his thinking in anyway?

ROBERT CANTU, CO-DIRECTOR OF THE NEUROLOGICAL SPORTS INJURY CENTER: Well, first, the important thing is whether the brain is able to be looked at mind autopsy. I don't know how many days (inaudible) temperatures above freezing and that can influence the ability to microscopically look at the brain.

Microscopically, if the brain's looked at, it should also be done with regular stains as well as special immunostains for the protein tau, because the interest would be whether or not this could be a case, I just say could, I don't know, of CTE (ph) for whether it could have been the concussion and post-concussion syndrome that played a role in which case there may or may not be any tau present. Normally with concussions alone...

FEYERICK: Right.

CANTU: ... tau is not present.

FEYERICK: So then, very quickly. How would it have changed his thinking, because he said -- you know, he, first of all, apologized and he said "I'm sorry if I'm an embarrassment, but these concussions have my head all messed up essentially." Would it had been an erratic behavior, would it had been depression, would it had been sort of anger, what would the concussion have done to his personality?

CANTU: Well, I think some symptoms that concussion symptoms come in and include what we call the somatic or physical bucket (ph) with headaches and light headiness, another bucket is emotional, which is mostly depression, anxiety disorder, and panic attacks. And another bucket of symptoms are cognitive symptoms where you have trouble with concentration, memory focus, insight judgment. Certainly the cognitive and the emotional, the two that would be most concerning here, in somebody that came to this tragic end.

FEYERICK: All right. And Danny, if it's proven that Karageorge's death was the result of sports-related concussion, can his family potentially sue the school for maybe not diagnosing some of the things he was wrestling with, how that work? CEVALLOS: This case combines two really hot issues in the law. The first is university liability for concussions, and the second is liability for suicide. Now, when it comes to suicide, third party liability for another suicide is a modern concept courts in his -- historically we step anagogically denied liability of third parties for another suicide because it's considered so individual.

FEYERICK: Right.

CEVALLOS: But in modern years, that's changed in two areas where people have been held liable for suicide have been universities and medical providers. And in the case of Ohio State and its football players and really any university, they are both. They are both university and often they take on the duty of medical provider to these players. So those are two very distinct possible avenues of liability, not only for concussions but even potentially for suicide itself.

FEYERICK: And Danny, you played football. I mean, did you feel that the team doctor or the physicians or the coaches were proactive enough in terms of really engaging with their player?

CEVALLOS: What fascinates me is this, is it's been almost 20 years since I did play football. But, you know, we had neurologists and we had neurosurgeons, and the game was essentially exactly the same. And it's fascinating in just the last decade how we've changed their views about how men who hurdle themselves at other men wearing helmets how that just might have an adverse effect on the brain. But, you know, we had the same science available to us essentially in the mid-90s as we do today.

It's just an increasing view of the potential damage of the sport. And I think it leads a lot of us to wonder, allowed how much longer will a support like this be allowed to continue in the way that it does.

FEYERICK: Right. I know -- and I know the NFL is trying to change it. I was at a clinic where they're trying to teach younger players how to hit from the side as suppose to straight on so that (inaudible) disrupts the head.

CEVALLOS: Don't lead with your head, no helmet-to-helmet contact.

FEYERICK: Yes, exactly. Well, it's interesting change. All right. Dr. Robert Cantu is on the phone with us. And Danny Cevallos, we thank you very much for your insights and your guidance on this. Thank you.

And Ray Rice, his wife Janay, speaking out about the intimate elevator videos. Up next, her reaction to seeing one of them, and what's happened with her husband since that night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FEYERICK: NFL running back. Ray Rice is clear to return to the NFL. And now the question, is there a team that's going to let him play. Rice has been suspended from the NFL after a videotape surfaced, showing him punching his wife in the elevator of an Atlantic City casino and then dragging her out unconscious while his wife Janay spoke out on the Today Show this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, TODAY SHOW HOST: Had you seen the tape?

JANAY RICE, WIFE OF NFL PLAYER RAY RICE: I saw the first one.

LAUER: So, did you see it before it was released to the public?

RICE: No, we just knew about it.

LAUER: You knew about it. Were you dreading the moment that that tape came out?

RICE: Yes, yes. We knew that it was going to happen. We didn't know exactly when it was going to happen. But there was no preparedness for that at all.

When I saw that it was horrible. We can't make excuses for anything while we were highly intoxicated. And in the moment you're not thinking about, oh my god, on the camera in an elevator. So, of course, people will going to read and say everything and pick at everything about the situation. We understand that.

LAUER: Have you seen the second tape?

RICE: No, I refuse, I refuse. I'm not going to let the public bring me back there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: Well, joining me now, CNN's Sports Anchor Rachel Nichols. And Rachel, despite what happened, Janay is speaking by her husband Ray saying that everybody makes mistakes. She feels this is a silver lining and that it will bring awareness to what people go through everyday. Do you think she's right to take this approach?

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Well, I don't think there's any question. It has brought awareness to domestic violence. That it's been called to hotlines have jumped way up. In fact, there's been increased awareness about athletes in domestic violence, both within the sports community and certainly outside of it. So taking the approach of saying, "Hey, there's a silver lining here," I think she's right on that clearing her husband's path in the NFL or at least trying to. But that's also what you would expect. There's, you know, she has an emotional and financial interest in doing so.

FEYERICK: Right. It was interesting because during the interview, she also says, "Look, we were both charged ultimately in Atlantic City." So, she's taking a little bit of the responsibility on herself but do you believe...

NICHOLS: I think they were both arrested, I don't think...

FEYERICK: They're both arrested, right, I apologize.

NICHOLS: Yes.

FEYERICK: Do you think ultimately that there is going to be a team that is going to pick him up? He's still a very talented player and he worked very hard to get where he was.

NICHOLS: Well, it's a little bit of a mixed bag. You do have the sort of interest from NFL teams. You've had three or four teams that have sort of it's come to the grapevine that they've made a couple of calls about Ray. But there's no team that's come out and even made the first steps towards signing him now.

And you got a thing, it's late in the season, a team that's not really going to want to bring him in, try to get him used to their system and just for a football standpoint, Ray didn't have a very good season.

The last season he played in the NFL is 27 years old turning 28, 30 is the magic number for NFL running back, so those teams concerned about that. Will he eventually give him second chance? Yes, probably. I'm not equating the offense Michael Vick did something different from Ray Rice...

(CROSSTALK)

NICHOLS: ...Killed someone in a drunk driving accident, all those crimes are different, however, the public reaction to them has followed somewhat of the same course.

There has been a bog sort of wave about (inaudible) and then really people like second chances in this country. There's not a lot of people who think if you commit a crime and be punished for it, you should then never be allowed to work again. And Ray Rice would like to work again and there is likely going to be an NFL team that gives him a shot to at least try to do so.

FEYERICK: Right. And he's definitely got to stay in shape actually if in fact, he does want to play. The NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is facing three headline grabbing issues right now. He's got Ray Rice, he's got Adrian Peterson and also the St. Louis Rams holding up, you know, that sort of their hands up during this.

Is this a reflection of his leadership, what's going on in the league or do many commissioners face this kind of thing?

NICHOLS: Well, having a lot of issues is just a reflection of the fact that the NFL is very popular in our culture, so there's always going to be things that come up.

The Ray Rice scenario in specific though on Friday, an arbitrator, a formal judge ruled, that not only would Ray Rice return to the field but that Roger Goodell made some significant mistakes in handling his case. Basically, she said that he was arbitrary and his use of power, we don't like that in this country, we like justice to follow a certain course. And also, saying that Ray Rice did not mislead the American public. Don't forget that Roger Goodell came out when there were so much controversy. Why don't you punish him more?

He basically came out in an interview and said, "Ray Rice lied to me, I didn't know the whole story." The arbitrator came out on Friday and said, "No, Ray Rice told you that the truth. This was your mistake." And that is something that I think the American people are going to say now, is he going to lose his job? Absolutely not.

FEYERICK: All right.

NOCHOLS: Two different things.

FEYERICK: Rachel Nichols, thank you so much, really appreciate it. All right everyone, thanks so much for watching. Wolf Blitzer starts right now.