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At This Hour

Michael Brown's Stepfather Investigated for Inciting Riot; Obama Vows to End Racial Profiling; Ashton Carter Nominated for Defense Secretary; Controversies Continue in Ferguson

Aired December 02, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Good morning to you, I'm Michaela Pereira.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: And I'm John Berman.

PEREIRA: We begin with breaking news out of Ferguson, Missouri. Michael Brown's stepfather is being investigated by the Ferguson police department for possibly inciting a riot.

BERMAN: Let's take a look at the video that's really at the center of this latest news. It was taken moments after the announcement that Officer Darren Wilson would not be indicted in the death of Michael Brown.

Michael Brown's mother -- you can see her right there -- was speaking to a crowd of supporters. She began sobbing and then this. Look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOUIS HEAD, MICHAEL BROWN'S STEPFATHER: Burn this bitch down! Burn this bitch down! Burn this bitch down! Burn this bitch down!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: "Burn this down" is what Louis Head said, repeatedly, adding an expletive in that.

I want to go now live to Ferguson. Our Ed Lavandera is there. Ed, the stepfather, Louis Head, is being investigated but what's the latest on this investigation?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No charges have been filed. We're told by the police chief in the city of Ferguson police department that they are looking into this as an investigation, a formal investigation at this point, and that the police investigators have spoken with friends of Michael Brown's stepfather but that no charges have been filed yet.

And interestingly enough, Ben Crump, the attorney for Michael Brown's parents, were asked about if they were -- if he was concerned about any possible charges stemming from this last night, and they said -- and Attorney Crump said that they were not concerned about it, that this was something said in the heat of the moment and that it was an emotional reaction. But that he should not be condoned for it.

PEREIRA: And that's an important distinction to be made there. I think a lot of people are probably wondering, Ed, and maybe you're getting a sense of it on the ground what folks are saying, this is a community that's very much in need of healing right now.

How on earth is this going to help the mending of relations with police?

LAVANDERA: I think news of this is obviously just trickling around. It's hard to imagine how this will go over well.

And I think what a lot of people will point to is those comments were made outside of the police department here in Ferguson and that's where some of the first police cars were set on fire and that sort of thing.

But the stretch of road where most of the fires were set and the looting and rioting exploded was about a mile away and that was happening moments -- basically around the same time those comments were being made.

So I think people might point the fact that, you know, his stepfather made those comments in a completely different area. It's hard to imagine that the people who were in the other area of town where the rioting and the looting was taking place which I happened to be at as well and once aware of the comments his stepfather was at, that might play into this situation as well.

But there have been calls from a great number of people who have seen that video, from the lieutenant governor of the state in Missouri, who has wondered if that investigation should be formally launched as well, and clearly it has this morning.

PEREIRA: All right. We'll watch to see what is the result of that investigation. Ed Lavandera, thanks so much for that.

The outrage in Ferguson has prompted the president to make ending racial profiling the number one issue on the domestic agenda. The president is vowing to use his last two years in office to address what he is calling the simmering distrust between police and minorities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There have been commissions before. There have task forces. There have been conversations. And nothing happens.

What I try to describe to people is why this will be different, and part of the reason this time will be different is because the president of the United States is deeply invested in making sure that this time is different.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: The president's plan includes tightening standards on military-style equipment purchased by police department, also creating what a task force on 21st century policing.

They will look at some ways police departments have improved community relations and try make those efforts national.

The president also plans to provide about $75 million for police officers to wear body cameras.

PEREIRA: Attorney General Eric Holder says he will announce rigorous new standards for federal law enforcement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We are dealing with concerns that are truly national in scope and that threaten the entire nation.

The Justice Department's investigation into the shooting death of Michael Brown as well as our investigation into allegations of unconstitutional policing patterns or practices by the Ferguson police department remain ongoing and remain active.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The president and the attorney general say this is the beginning of a discussion. Right now, it's talk. They do promise action. They say the goal is to make things better.

PEREIRA: We are joined right now by two people who were in that very meeting at the White House with the president. Michael Skolnik is editor-in-chief of GlobalGrind.com and political director to Russell Simmons. Judith Brown is the codirector of The Advancement Project. I'm so glad you could join us today off this meeting.

First, I want to get your reaction, though. Michael, I'll start with you. I know you spent a lot of time with Michael Brown's mother, in conversation, putting your heads together with her, comforting her.

I'm sure your curious about this news that her husband is potentially -- well, is being investigated from the comments that he made after the verdict -- or the announcement not to indict Darren Wilson was made. What's your reaction to that?

MICHAEL SKOLNIK, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, GLOBALGRIND.COM: The first image I saw of this tragedy was that gentleman holding a cardboard sign handwritten saying "a cop killed my unarmed son." before we saw the body of his son in the street for four and a half hours, I saw a photograph online on twitter of him holding a sign. 100 plus days later, the state still did not protect him and his family. That was raw emotion. The fact that police are investigating that he incited a riot after 110 people protesting the state to at least indict this police officer is ludicrous.

BERMAN: I mean, look, let me just say this. How do you interpret his statements as anything other than a call to be -- a call for action at that moment. He said "burn this blank down. Burn this blank down."

I'm not saying charges should be filed, not even saying an investigation is merited, but it did happen.

SKOLNIK: Absolutely. But did that incite a riot? That raw emotion, that reaction to a nonindictment announcement by the prosecutor (inaudible) and I've been to Ferguson. What happened in West Florissant is different than what happened on South Florissant which is about ten minutes away.

So where the burning and looting occurred that night was not even near where he was. So the fact that you would then interpret that -- if the police want to investigate Michael Brown Jr.'s stepfather for inciting a riot, you're going to start all over again.

PEREIRA: That's the concern. Some headway is starting to be made. This conversation that was held yesterday, you were a part of it, Michael.

Judith, you were there with the president, gathering leaders, gathering law enforcement. I'm curious, Judith, what your reaction is to that meeting. I think a lot of people are wondering, was it just talk, or do you feel there was substantive action planned?

JUDITH BROWNE DIANIS, ADVANCEMENT PROJECT: First, thanks for having me. I think most important part of the day for me was that I spent most of that day with young leaders from Ferguson, Florida, Ohio, and New York at the White House, and with eight young people who met with the president in the Oval Office to talk about policing in their communities.

And this was an opportunity for them to talk about their daily lives. How they are harassed by the police, how they are criminalized by the police, unnecessarily, what it feels like to be in a community where the people who are supposed to protect you are the people you feel you need protection from.

And so that was a really important moment for this movement of young people around the country who know that Ferguson is everywhere. And I think that the president's statements showed that he is committed to making a change. And now this movement has to keep moving to get them to action.

BERMAN: Michael, I was reading your tweets yesterday and I know you were impressed by the listening that went on during these meetings. When does listening need to go beyond conversation and turn into action and what kind of actual action at the federal level do you want to see?

SKOLNIK: Well, I think to my good friend Judith who was there is that the president listened to young people and the folks in the room. He invited folks from Ferguson, from Ohio to sit there and talk to him, and he talked about action.

He said he's going to put $263 million into a federal program to buy body cameras, to train police officers in deescalation tactics and implicit and explicit biases. He's asking for 50,000 body cameras across the country and last night we saw the mayor of Atlanta, Kaseem Reed, already going into the program saying he will use Atlanta as a pilot program for body cameras.

So the folks on the ground, the Hands Up United, Lost Voices, you know, the folks -- Organization for Black Struggle have been doing this work for over 100 days. These have been their demands. They've been asking for accountability for the police, and the president listened to them, and now he's taking action.

My earpiece is killing me.

PEREIRA: It's trying to jump out of your ear. I appreciate you staying solid on that point.

Judith, let me ask you, because I think there will be some that will say, look, body cameras, you can make changes to funding certain programs, all of these changes may happen with the support of the president with the sweep of a pen, can make some changes.

But you can't necessarily change attitudes and misconceptions. How do we start there?

BROWNE DIANIS: Well, part of it is that the federal government actually has a lot of power through purse strings, and part of what they're going to be doing is looking at training.

We have to have -- double-down on training for police officers on excessive use of force, which many police departments, they only get in the academy and never again after that. Also on racial bias. And so I think that the federal government can do that.

The other thing is the federal government has the ability to hold police departments accountable by taking the money away, through the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

And so I think that will happen but we have to look at the local level. This is not about the individual bad officers, but this is a systemic problem throughout the country, and I think that we have to come together as America to understand that there is a problem.

There is a difference of perceptions, and communities of color feel like they are under attack, and that's the hard work before us.

PEREIRA: That's the hard work there. Judith Browne Dianis, Michael Skolnik, always a pleasure to have you with us, thanks so much for joining us today.

BROWNE DIANIS: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, also new @THISHOUR, CNN has learned who is likely to be the president's pick to be the next Defense Secretary. So will this set off a heated confirmation battle?

PEREIRA: Also, three women with a similar story, they all claim comedian Bill Cosby sexually assaulted them. For the first time they meet, they share their stories together. You'll hear from them, ahead @THISHOUR.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Happening now, CNN has learned the president's choice to replace Chuck Hagel as Defense Secretary. Barring any last-minute complication, administration officials tell CNN that man will be Ashton Carter, former second-in-command at the Pentagon.

I want to get straight to Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Also joining us is Peter Brookes, senior fellow of National Security Affairs at the Heritage Foundation. Barbara, I think it's safe to say that Ash Carter is not necessarily the president's first choice, at this point, to be Defense Secretary. Nevertheless, he is a Pentagon insider. How will this nomination be received?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: I think it will be received very well by the military and by the Pentagon leadership. Well known around here. Until late last year, he actually served as Hagel's deputy. He has been the top weapons buyer here at the Pentagon. He knows how billions of dollars of taxpayer money is spent, and with budget cuts coming potentially from Congress, he will be on the hot seat to figure out what is cut, what is kept. He's someone who is likely to get readily easily confirmed by the Republican-led Senate Arms Services Committee. They know him. He shouldn't run into any particular problems.

Perhaps the biggest question, though, you know, Hagel was pushed out because the administration, the White House said it was time to transition to new leadership. Is Ash Carter really new leadership? Probably not. And a big question about whether the White House really wants that. You hear an awful lot about micromanagement from the National Security Council from the president, will a new secretary of defense offer new ideas? Will he be listened to? Will the White House even want to hear any new ideas or is it basically full steam ahead with what the status quo is for the next 18 months or so.

PEREIRA: Interesting thought. Peter, let's bring you into the conversation. This is also coming at a time when the U.S. is facing a fair amount of strife, it's safe to say, in the Middle East. He definitely is facing his share of challenges if he were to be put in this position, if he gets confirmation. What's your reaction to it all?

PETER BROOKES, SENIOR FELLOW, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, I think the Senate is certainly going to bring up Obama's policies. I mean, you're replacing -- as I wrote last week, I mean, you can replace the Secretary of Defense, but the policies are really the problem. I mean, we're facing a war with ISIS, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, violence is up, the rise of China, Russia, Ukraine, so you can change the head of the Pentagon, but if you don't change the policies, the result is not going to be any different. And I think we're facing an unprecedented level of international challenges here and I think part of it is because of the policies that this administration has pursued, and I expect that's what the Senate Arms Services Committee is really going to get at in his confirmation hearing. BERMAN: Barbara, despite his vast experience inside the Pentagon

itself, and not to mention his education, he has a Rhodes scholar, a Ph.D. in theoretical physics, which makes him about a thousand times smarter than I am, he never did serve in the military. That's not unheard of for a Defense Secretary.

STARR: It's not. You know, and let me just throw something in here. Really interesting. Not only a degree in theoretical physics, not only a Rhodes scholar. Oddly enough, he also has a degree in medieval history. Ash is really considered -- yes, very interesting guy. Really considered by everyone who knows him to be brilliant intellectually. But also a good -- a good sort of practical, hands- on, knows how things run. Never served in the military. Not that unusual. Perhaps more unusual was, in fact, Chuck Hagel's experience as a soldier on the ground walking the patrol during the worst times of the Vietnam War. That is something that was very much revered by so many enlisted people currently serving in the military. They felt that Hagel really understood what they had been through. But a lot of Secretaries of Defense have never served.

PEREIRA: Barbara Starr, Peter Brookes, thank you so much. We'll watch to see what happens when the official announcement comes out about the nomination and then of course, wait to see if he is confirmed. We'll have more to discuss with you both. Thank you.

BERMAN: Ahead for us right now @THISHOUR, the Rams apology or non- apology for the hands-up protest that stirred up trouble for the St. Louis Police Department. We're going to have the he-said-he-said controversy next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Another controversy has come out of Ferguson, Missouri. This one is a fight over an apology. It all started with this -- you probably saw it, five St. Louis Rams players taking to the field Sunday doing the "hands up, don't shoot" gesture used by protesters angry over the police shooting death of Michael Brown.

BERMAN: Now, a local Police Officers Association said they should not have done that. The police chief says the Rams' chief operating officer called to apologize, but a spokesman for the Rams says there was no apology. I want to bring in our panel to discuss this. Lizz Brown is a columnist in the "St. Louis American" and a defense attorney. We're also joined by Mel Robbins, a CNN commentator and legal analyst.

Mel, I don't think there are any legal issues here, but why do you think it's so important for this cop to say the Rams apologize, and it's obviously very important for the Rams, at least the management, to say we didn't actually officially apologize?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR: Well, I think this is a conversation that's gripped the nation and what I take away from this, other than the fact that it was an incredibly powerful image to see a bunch of NFL players in uniform with their hands up, is that this is much bigger than just one shooting. This is a conversation about the use of excessive force and the way in which black and brown men in this country are racially profiled and treated differently by the police and I think the players have the right to say something like this. They wear pink to promote breast cancer awareness, they write the names of people on their shoes, like Trayvon Martin was written on the names of shoes of NFL players, and the Clippers in the NBA, they had a silent protest over Donald Sterling's racial comments.

And, you know, I think what's been problematic about this story, guys, and I know you feel it, is if you say anything in support of investigating excessive force, you are a cop hater. If you say anything in support of Officer Wilson or you support the police, because the police are very necessary in this country, and most of them are remarkable young men and women, then you're racist. And that's a problem.

BERMAN: She's been reading my Twitter feed.

(LAUGHTER)

ROBBINS: Well, I just see this as indicative of the fact that we want to put each other in buckets and say, if you have a problem with what happened, you hate the cops, but if you don't have a problem with what happened, you're racist. So I just -- that's troubling to me.

PEREIRA: There's so many aspects about this and, Lizz, let's talk to you because goodness knows you're on the ground there and getting a sense of what people are saying and how the reaction to the apology, non-apology, the "hands up, don't shoot" gesture at the game, how that went over. It makes me wonder if there's a sense that, you know, this was a tone-deaf kind of comment and stance to be having at a time when healing is supposed to be the job one.

LIZZ BROWN, COLUMNIST, ST. LOUIS AMERICAN: Well, I really think that we need to have a larger discussion about what the Rams organization, what the Rams players are being asked to apologize for. What is it that they did that was something that was worthy of an apology? And I think that you also have -- we also have to analyze it from the fury of this Police Officers' Association. A largely white association, I would add. In fact, in St. Louis we have two different Police Officers' Association, an African-American Police Officers' Association, the Ethical Society, and the white -- the largely white Police Officers' Association. And the rage that was expressed by the head of this white Police Officers' Association is stunning.

And you have to ask, as a citizen, as an observer, if you're this angry about players holding their hands up in a free nation, then how do you respond to people on the ground, citizens on the ground, who hold their hands up? What do they receive from you? What kind of treatment do those people receive from this police department? Where does your fury about this come from? I don't understand, except to say that you feel somehow that you should be able to tell people, certain people, how they are supposed to act. I don't understand. This is a deep and almost ancient rage that's being directed at these football players.

BERMAN: Mel, quickly, I want to get one question in on the news that we just heard a little more than 30 minutes ago that the police force in Ferguson is investigating Louis Head, the stepfather of Michael Brown, for possibly inciting a riot, for his actions, what he shouted the night that the grand jury decision was announced. He kept on saying, "Burn this bitch down," those were the words he used. What does the law say about inciting a riot?

ROBBINS: Well, if you want to check it out, if you look at section 574 of the Missouri Criminal Code it covers everything from disorderly conduct to rioting. It's a Class A misdemeanor. It can rise up to the level of a felony if you have certain facts. Now here's the deal, there's two ways to look at this. One is the law. Can they make out a case here? You know, on the facts, it could be problematic for the stepfather. He is clearly stating what he hopes people do and then on the other hand, you see people in that vicinity burning police cars. So you could make out a case. However, most of the looting happened ten minutes away from where he was, so I think causally it's problematic.

But then there's a bigger issue, guys, which is in terms of the law, in terms of what Lizz was just talking about in the healing, the timing of this, after this scuffle with the Rams, and people being upset about the players, is this retaliatory? I know a lot of people saw that and said wow, he said it so many times. But on the other hand, he's a human being that is reacting to horrible news from his point of view. He's caught up in the motion, and if the police were to investigate and guess who would be investigating and deciding whether to charge him? It would be McCulloch. You really think that's a good idea right now? I certainly don't.

PEREIRA: Mel Robbins, we appreciate your joining us today. Lizz Brown, as always, great to have you both with us. Thank you so much. We have more to talk about with you coming up. Stay with us.

BERMAN: First, though, a quick mention. After nights of protest, so much of Ferguson was left in ruins, buildings burned down - not much of Ferguson, but parts of Ferguson, streets that were looted. You can see buildings burned down there and there were a lot of neighbors there left without jobs. Slowly, people are helping those affected rebuild. And you can help, too. To find out how you can help, visit cnn.com/impact.

PEREIRA: All right, ahead here @THISHOUR, he died after he was put in a chokehold by a police officer who was trying to arrest him. You'll recall protests erupted. Now, a grand jury, a grand jury is deciding whether or not to indict that officer. Could we face another Ferguson situation on our hands?

We're going to discuss with Mel Robbins after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)