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Brown's Stepdad Investigated; Living Life Unfairly; Woman Close to ISIS Captured; UVA Campus Rapes

Aired December 02, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.

I want to begin with the emotional outburst from Michael Brown's stepfather on the night the world learned the officer who killed Brown would not be indicted. What Lewis Head screams there was no doubt controversial, but now Ferguson Police are trying to determine if what he was yelling, eight times over was, in fact, criminal. They're looking in whether Head, who is married to Brown's mother, should be charged for inciting a riot over his blow-up which "The New York Times" recorded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) the police.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, for real, like, just a minute. You know, give her a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was somebody's child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Give her a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down! Burn this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me be crystal clear with you. There are no charges against Lewis Head at this time. But let's let the legal experts weigh in. I have Paul Millus with me, who's a civil rights attorney, sitting with me onset here in New York, and also HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.

So, gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

And, Paul, let me just begin with you. I think let's just start simply with what is the actual definition of inciting a riot? And how do you prove it?

PAUL MILLUS, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Using words that you have a clear and present danger as a result of those words of causing a riot and actually intending, specific intent to have those words cause the riot itself. Not an easy thing to prove, quite frankly.

BALDWIN: So, Joey Jackson, you know, we've all seen the aftermath from Ferguson, right, that night. Businesses looted, cars, businesses burned. We know that he said "burn this bleep down," as I mentioned, eight different times. How can authorities connect those dots between those words and the actions taken by others on the street?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure, Brooke, I mean from a prosecutors perspective, what they, of course, will say, Brook, is that he was instigating, he was inciting, and he was promoting a public disturbance, and he was doing so with the intention that the crowd do exactly what they were instructed to do, which is to burn the place down. However, Brooke, from a defense perspective, they'll argue that he was reacting to emotion. This was a profound moment in time and a profound moment in history. There was no indictment. And so as a result of that, he was simply being expressive. He wasn't, indeed, intending to promote anything other than to express himself in a poor way. In addition to which, you have to look at where the looting and rioting occurred. It was miles away from that particular area, Brooke, where there were a number of businesses that were torched. And so did those people who were doing that actually hear him such that he could be considered the root cause of the problem?

BALDWIN: So let me play some sound. This isn't, I don't think, by any means a justification of what has happened or what happened in Ferguson, but it is an explanation. This is when CNN sat down with Michael Brown's mother just a couple of days ago. This is what she told Sunny Hostin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: His emotions was taking over him, just like mine. He just spoke out of anger. It's one thing to speak, and it's a different thing to act. He did not act. He just spoke out of anger. I'm a grieving mother. That's my husband. He's been around Michael at least four years. So he's grown to love him, not as much as I do, but he's grown to love him like he loves his own children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, Paul, let me just go to you with that. She's basically saying this is a moment of raw emotion. He just found out, you know, Michael Brown wouldn't - the officer who shot and killed him wouldn't be indicted. I guess, in terms of a high-profile case like this, have you ever heard of an instance where police would go after the victim's family in this way?

MILLUS: From a purely technical standpoint, the language he used was essentially (ph) to incite something. Whether or not it actually did in terms of the people he was diressing (ph) at the time, you'd have to find other additional evidence. But I would tend to agree, in a case like this, it is highly unlikely that one would want to take on the prosecution of the father, considering the emotions, what was going at the time. He was reacting to something that obviously impacted him in a very great way. His son's killer, from his perspective, was not going to be brought to justice from his perspective. I don't think it's a case you want to bring if you're a prosecutor, irrespective of the fact that it might fit the technical definition.

BALDWIN: Joey Jackson, do you agree, this isn't something necessarily they should be bringing on a family like this?

JACKSON: I think Paul makes a very good point. I think the reality is, is that none of us, of course, support any of that behavior. You know, whether you're a lawyer, whether you're someone who supports the family or you support the police officer, nobody believes that his behavior was appropriate or his conduct, no matter what the circumstance.

At the same time, they're a community that, at this point, needs to be healed. And do you need another prosecution? And I know the lieutenant governor has given the indication that he should be potentially prosecuted, but there's a practical part to this. And that practical part is whether it's the right course of action even though technically you may be able to do it under the statute that is prosecute, Brooke. Would it make sense to do so? That's the issue.

BALDWIN: OK. Joey Jackson, thank you. Paul Millus, I appreciate you coming over here very much.

MILLUS: Thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Meantime, what happened in Ferguson, Missouri, sparking not only calls for future action, but memories of past encounters. Reporter Gary Fields recounts his experience as a teenager walking home in Louisiana in this "Wall Street Journal" essay. Fields says an officer, searching for a 5'6" tall black suspect, stopped him, even though Fields is 6'3". This is - this is what he wrote here in this "Wall Street Journal" piece in part. He wrote, "I knew a few things instinctively. Don't run, don't move, don't argue, and, above all, don't ask why I've been stopped. Stay calm to live, I thought. The cop had the gun, but it was my responsibility not to do anything to push him to use lethal force against me." Gary fields joins me now from Washington.

Gary, welcome.

GARY FIELDS, REPORTER, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Yes, hi, Brooke, how you doing?

BALDWIN: I'm doing well. Thank you so much for sharing. It wasn't just this story. You share several, several stories, several run-ins with authority in your piece because of, as you go back to over and over, the color of your skin. And you knew every time you had to embody calm.

FIELDS: Yes, and part of what I was trying to get through in the article is, there's a different reality. We can try to pretend like it doesn't exist, but there is a different reality if you're, you know, young black man versus, you know, some of my colleagues as we talk in the office. You know, their experiences aren't quite the same as mine. And where I was trying to get to and what I hope I've done is to get a discussion going on, when you have these events like what occurred in Ferguson, there's often a distrust of the official version of events. And sometimes that can occur even when those events might be true because so many of us have kind of these collective, you know, personal stories to go along with the history that we know of some of the encounters.

BALDWIN: So hearing you talk about the distrust of the version of events, let me just ask you, when you - I don't know how much of any of the grand jury testimony you've actually, you know, read. But I'm wondering if you question what police and eyewitnesses and this officer say they saw.

FIELDS: I think what I question more is - because I believe that people are trying to actually give their best knowledge and their best witness when they're before a grand jury. I think what I'd probably question more is, you know, I've been doing criminal justice reporting for 30 years. I don't think I've ever seen a prosecutor, you know, take the stands and do some of the things that I saw from the statements last week when they - when the indictment wasn't returned.

BALDWIN: Uh-huh. And I think a lot of people agree with you on that one. This has been done very differently. But let me -- since we're talking specifically about Ferguson, you know, you talk more about toward the beginning of the piece, you compare yourself as a teenager to the life of Michael Brown and you feel like, you know, your experience as a black teenager was the same. But, I mean, you grew up in the '70s. Here we're in 2014. Do you think his experience was the same, or was it different?

FIELDS: I kind of think, to some degree, obviously his experience was different because, you know, from all I've gathered, he did at least approach the officer aggressively to start with, you know. I, growing up in the '70s and also the '60s, kind of had a different indoctrination. We were just pretty much raised and told constantly, you know, how to behave because we were coming from an era when we knew that, you know, authorities could actually take your life if necessary and the cause would be taken care of. We would find the reasoning and the justification for it.

So, you know, I kind of grew up understanding that, you know, the rights that everybody else has, maybe you don't actually get to say the same things. You don't get to talk back if an officer stops you and you say, you know, why are you stopping me? You know, I had a friend, we were laughing about some of this because he was talking to one of the guys that he works with and the guy was saying how he had been stopped in a traffic stop and the officer put a flashlight into the car and he screamed at the officer because the flashlight was going to wake up his kids. And Jimmy and I both started laughing because we're saying, you screamed at an officer?

BALDWIN: You never would have done that, right?

FIELDS: Yes, exactly. It never would have actually occurred to me to actually scream at a law enforcement officer. You know, we look at things just a little bit differently.

BALDWIN: That's a great example. That's a great example.

You know, when we talk about, when we see all these pictures, yesterday we were showing all these pictures of these people walking out of businesses and schools, marching, you know, protesting the grand jury decision from a week ago. And I don't know if you've listened to Charles Barkley on the radio in Philadelphia, you know, and he was - he was saying, listen, a lot of these people, they're furious, but they haven't read all the facts. They haven't read the testimony from the grand jury. And he said, you know, yes, it is awful that this, you know, this 18-year-old was killed, that police officers are the last line of defense. But he was saying, we -- I'm quoting him, "we shouldn't jump to conclusions." And he says people don't jump to conclusions when black people kill each other. How would you respond to that?

FIELDS: Well, I would respond a couple of ways, you know. First off, yes, there's black on black crime, but it shouldn't be an either/or proposition. Should we not actually be concerned when, you know, the official, you know, governmental entities actually, you know, get involved in something like this because there's black on black crime. The second thing is, shouldn't we be able to hold, you know, the criminal justice system to a higher standard than I would hold somebody who's actually out and committing crimes in the streets? Shouldn't I be able to hold the criminal justice system to a higher standard? Shouldn't I actually have a different expectation for how I'm going to be treated? You know, that protect and serve thing, I actually believe that. Shouldn't I be able to hold the people that are actually carrying badges to a different standard? Shouldn't I be able to actually hold, you know, the court system to a different standard and hope that, you know, lady justice is, indeed, blind and deaf.

BALDWIN: What a perspective, as you say, covering criminal justice for three decades. Gary Fields, you wrote what it feels like to be a suspicious black teenager. Thank you for sharing your perspective with me today. I appreciate it.

FIELDS: OK, thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Just ahead, a source tells CNN a woman close to the leader of ISIS has been captured. But in the middle of a war, who will question her?

Plus, breaking today, President Obama chooses a new defense secretary to lead the battle against ISIS. We will tell you about Ash Carter.

And the woman in charge at the University of Virginia responds to criticism over the way the school handles sex assault cases, rape cases. Her comments involve alcohol and predators. Stay with me. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We are following a developing story right now. Sources are telling CNN

that this man right here is about to become the next defense secretary. We are told that barring any last-minute complications, Ashton Carter will be announced as President Obama's choice to replace Chuck Hagel. Carter has served as second in command at Pentagon under both Leon Panetta and Secretary Hagel. Insiders say Carter is seen as a master of managing large budgets, as well as an expert on weapons technology. At one point serving as the Pentagon's chief arms buyer.

And while he made know bureaucracy, critics do point out that he has actually never served in the military. We're also hearing Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, who was front runner to take the spot, has taken himself out of consideration.

Now to this one. He has become the most elusive figure in the war on ISIS, the ruthless, ruthless leader, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. And so far, he has escaped the grasp of the United States and his allies. But CNN is following new reports that two people close to him - this is how it's being relayed to us - close to him have just been captured. Details on the developing story are definitely a tad murky. This is what we know that is crystal clear. This is the first time anyone has gotten ahold of anyone connected to this leader, Al Baghdadi. CNN's senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is following this one for us today.

And, Nic, I mean let's just begin with what -- tell me about these -- those who are captured by Lebanese officials and actually their relationship to Baghdadi.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we're learning from sources who are familiar with the arrest in the region, they are saying that the person arrested is the wife of Baghdadi, Saja al-Dumaini (ph), an Iraqi, one of two of Baghdadi's wives. One of their children was arrested, too.

What we are learning is a very, very interesting story of events here. This was a joint operation between Iraqi, Syrian and Lebanese intelligence. That this had been in planning for some time, for up to a month. That she's been in custody now for close to a week. That she is an important and powerful player and figure in her own right inside ISIS. That she has been tracked for some time, and, on top of that, because of the way that western intelligence agencies work with the Iraqis, western intelligence agencies were aware of some of this going on.

BALDWIN: So then the obvious follow-up is, well, so then what do they do with her?

ROBERTSON: They question her, which is what's happening right now. And what we're seeing is sort of really standard playbook stuff for intelligence agencies. She's been held for over a week. This is normal. The intelligence agencies didn't leak the information or anyone leak the information for quite a considerable amount of time. So, you know, for Baghdadi, he doesn't know what's happened to his wife. That's perhaps caused some calls, et cetera. That's all useful intelligence that can be gathered up if it can be, you know, sniffed out of the air, if you will, from, you know, electronic eavesdropping and all these sorts of technologies that are available.

But we also know other things, too. We know that there's a huge focus by western intelligence agencies on the borders of Syria right now because they want to know who is coming and going from Syria and do they pose a threat to the west? You know, all of these European jihadists. Some have come from the United States, too. So the fact that the intelligence net around the edges of Syria is perhaps tightening perceptibly here should come as no surprise to us either, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Pretty incredible get. We'll see if she talks because she could have some pretty important intelligence as an integral player inside ISIS. Nic Robertson, thank you very much, in London.

Coming up next, zero tolerance. The University of Virginia lays down new rules to deal with sexual violence, sex assault. But what does zero tolerance actually mean? How will that be enforced? We'll talk about that.

Plus, Charles Barkley speaking his mind about the grand jury's decision in Ferguson and his take is unlike any we have heard so far. You will hear him, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The University of Virginia is taking action in response to the "Rolling Stone" article that details an alleged fraternity gang rape and the school's dispassionate response. UVA President Teresa Sullivan told students Monday that, quote, "a piece of our culture is broken." Among the changes she announced, an additional trauma counselor for the school's women's center, a reassessment of the role alcohol plays in campus social life, and a review of the current policy that allows victims to choose whether assault will be prosecuted.

University of Virginia student journalist Catherine Valentine joins me. We first spoke on Thanksgiving. Thank you so much for coming back, Catherine. Welcome back.

CATHERINE VALENTINE, WUVA STUDENT REPORTER: Thank you so much for having me again, Brooke.

BALDWIN: You know, you were the one behind the really powerful interview with the university's dean in handling sex assault cases there on grounds and you asked her why students who have admitted to sexual assault, why they have not been expelled from the university. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VALENTINE: Do you not think that it's damaging for sexual assault victims to see the person who sexually assaulted or raped them on grounds?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it absolutely can be.

VALENTINE: So why are they allowed back on grounds?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I think we are trying to balance the rights of the individual who is being accused, as well as the rights of the complaint. And sometimes that's very difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, that was part of that. And as you found out in your interview, and we well know, you know, at UVA, you know, the honor code, lying, cheating or stealing. If you are, you know, found guilty of any of the above, you're out. But if you admit to sex assault, at least according to that interview, you know, not only are you not expelled, you are still walking alongside victims at the university. Is the school changing that policy? Do we know?

VALENTINE: Well, last week, as you know, the board of visitors decided to establish a zero tolerance policy. But I've reported this is what I found in the interview with Dean Aramo (ph), that no student in the history of UVA has ever been expelled for sexual assault. So it's going to be quite the leap from zero expulsions to zero tolerance. I was hoping that President Sullivan would announce the university's plan to implement the zero tolerance policy yesterday, but it seemed like they needed a little bit more time.

BALDWIN: Let me back up. When we hear zero tolerance, Catherine, what does that really mean?

VALENTINE: Right. I'm not sure. It's going to be -- to me, that sounds like, if you commit a sexual assault at the university, it sounds like you'll be expelled. But I'm not sure how they plan to implement that because it seems like, when I spoke with Dean Aramo, it seemed like she was concerned with the perpetrators and she was concerned with due process and the students' rights, which I understand that students' rights need to be upheld, but I'm curious to see how the school plans to implement a zero tolerance policy.

BALDWIN: So it still sounds a little, for lack of a better word, sticky. What about this? What about the university president said yesterday, we mentioned alcohol. You know, alcohol doesn't cause rape, but alcohol is often a tool of the predator. Direct quote from her.

VALENTINE: Right.

BALDWIN: How big of a problem is alcohol there at UVA? And is it a major factor in those reported assaults?

VALENTINE: I think it's a huge factor. But I don't think that's just a UVA problem. I really think you're seeing students across the country drinking in excess. I think it's a common theme across really all colleges in this nation. So I've said before when we spoke that this is not a Greek (ph) problem and this is not even a UVA problem, but it is happening. I think that alcohol is playing a huge role in that, absolutely.

BALDWIN: We are going to keep in close touch with you. Catherine Valentine, I hope - I hope it improves there at UVA. And as you point out, on so many college campuses across this country. Thank you so much. Keep us posted, please.

Coming up next --

VALENTINE: Of course. Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: You got it.

Coming up next, Charles Barkley unfiltered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA PLAYER: There's a perception among some black people that you're not a thug or hood rat, you don't wear your pants down by your ass, you're not black enough. And they always holding us back, plain and simple. And I ain't shutting up and I ain't backing down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Charles Barkley, never one to hold back. You will hear his take on the grand jury announcement in Ferguson, including his support for police officers who work in black neighborhoods.

Plus, 17 women now say Bill Cosby raped them. Today, three of those women met face to face for the very first time here at CNN. What they had to say to one another, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)