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Don Lemon Tonight
No Indictment by Grand Jury in Chokehold Death of Eric Garner; Protests Spreading Across New York City and the Country
Aired December 03, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Anderson, thank you very much. Our breaking news tonight. Protests spreading across this city in the wake of a grand jury's decision not to indict a white police officer in the chokehold death of an African-American man in July.
We have got a lot to get to tonight. Just look at what is going on now in the streets of New York City.
CNN's Chris Cuomo out on the streets tonight. He is joining us from, believe it is Times Square.
Chris, protesters are out in force in Times Square after the Michael Brown grand jury decision. What's happening there now after the Eric Garner grand jury decision?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: All right, Don, obviously this is a very -- the good news is this is a very different situation than Ferguson both in tone and tactics that we're seeing. People are very angry. They believe that -- this was too secretive. That this prosecutor should not have investigated his own police force. And that is motivating a lot of the similar feelings to what we saw in Ferguson. And as we've known all along, the issues reverberate across the country.
But here a very different night than what we experienced recently in Ferguson. The police here have shut off the Henry Hudson Highway here where 12th Avenue leads into it on the west side of Manhattan. And the protesters have been pushed into a group here.
Frank, let's show them where everybody is.
And you have a mix. You have some college kids here. Vocal, angry, hostile. And then you have people who have been here their whole lives. And they're chanting the things that you used to hearing. They've added specific things to Eric Garner, "Don't breathe." "New York says no." But a lot of the familiar things that we've heard before, Don. And what they're saying is they don't want to create disturbances with the police. What they want to do is get their message out.
So what they've done tactically is, they organize in pockets where they move around the city, Don. And they find different areas. Because New York City is not an easy city to protest in. LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: They're very good at corralling groups. But here they've been very effective, Don, at moving around. And the police have been effective.
LEMON: Hey, Chris.
CUOMO: You see the riot gear. They're here in a non-confrontational way.
One other thing, Don. There are a lot of police in the crowd with the protesters in plain clothes. That's helped them anticipate things.
LEMON: Yes, I want to get more information on that, Chris. We're going to get back to you because right now I want to bring in New York City's police commissioner, Bill Bratton, who joins me now on the phone.
Commissioner Bratton, we appreciate your time. Explain to us, Chris is out in the crowd. He's over, he said, on the West Side Highway. What is going on? What is the strategy for the police department now?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAM BRATTON, NEW YORK CITY POLICE: Well, multiple strategies that, one, is to keep the groups moving. If they stop on the street, attempt to block traffic by forming chains, that we will make every effort to arrest them. And we have so far arrested about 30 this evening with probably more to come. But to point out that these demonstrators are nonviolent. We have no reports of violence. No reports of vandalism. So we are working to allow them to have their protest, but at the same time to (INAUDIBLE) possible minimize inconvenience to the rest of the city.
And so we are -- we are moving to break them up when they attempt to stop. And they're not moving through traffic. When they move through traffic, they stop traffic, five, 10 minutes, then they go on, traffic move along.
LEMON: The arrests are for what, stopping traffic? What are they for?
BRATTON: The arrests would be for a variety of situations. I can't give you those specifics. I am not on the scene. But officers on the scene would have probable cause to make the arrest so they will make the arrest.
LEMON: All right. Let's talk specifically about this case and the video, Commissioner. So many people look at that video and they say, that you are asking us not to believe our own eyes. Eric Garner was selling loose cigarettes. He didn't appear to be violent. Explain what you see in that video.
BRATTON: I'm not going to talk about it. I have an administrative investigation that's going forward. So that investigation will look at all the circumstances now that the criminal investigation has concluded at the district attorney's office. I would point out that, under our laws, under our government, we have
a grand jury. That grand jury heard a lot of evidence. That's not going to be available to you or I or to the public. They made a decision based on the evidence they saw. So we have to respect that judicial system. At the same time, we can certainly understand the anger of people, the frustration of people. A lot of people look at the video and see a very disturbing sequence of events. And so their frustration is quite obviously based on what you're showing on your station tonight, the demonstrations.
LEMON: Can you discuss whether you think there was anything they could have done to --
BRATTON: I'm not going to discuss anything having to do with the case.
LEMON: You can't discuss anything to do with it.
BRATTON: No. I'm going to be making a decision on the officer once we have our trial here. So I am not in the position to discuss the case at all.
LEMON: So you have the final say. Can you -- will you fire him?
BRATTON: The process now moves into an administrative review to see if the officer or officers, that were involved in the death of Mr. Garner, were in violation of the department policies and procedures. And if they were, to what extent, then based on that finding, if it's a finding of guilt, the decision will be made as to appropriate penalty or discipline for that. So it's much too early in the process to even comment on that.
LEMON: Commissioner, what is the takeaway of this for the average police officer?
BRATTON: Well, the takeaway for the average police officer is the understanding that they have an extraordinarily difficult job. One that is evidenced by the circumstances that appear here in New York. That in a moment a life can be lost. In a moment, decisions made in response to instant decisions can be challenged in court. Can be challenged in the court. Challenged in the media. Challenged in administrative proceedings. Challenged in the sense of review to determine whether those decisions were appropriate.
So officers -- police officers in the United States have probably the most difficult job in public government. And increasingly their activities are available to scrutiny, to video, as in the case of Mr. Garner. And that has both been a benefit as well as a hindrance. The benefit being that many departments such as our own are moving toward more widespread use of cameras used by our officers.
It has been found that they oftentimes helps to allow us to make informed decisions. But as we are seeing in the case of Mr. Garner, grand jury reviewed the same videos, may have watched it countless times, and came up with the decision that was not a criminal act, committed by the officer. And that is their finding. And under our form of government, the finding stands.
LEMON: Commissioner, I have to ask you because you mentioned body cameras. How would body cameras have made a difference in this particular instance? Because this --
BRATTON: I'm going not to speak to that at all. But body cameras would have done in any incident is give you a different set of perspectives that you have one camera perspective there. In another circumstance, you might have had, two, three, four cameras depending on how many officers were equipped with cameras. How many civilian witnesses might have had cameras.
We are increasingly moving into new territory in the 21st century where there is much more widespread availability of video. But as much as we think video is the final determinant, it is not. Clearly, that oftentimes, there were many other elements that have come into a decision before a decision was made.
LEMON: I asked you what the takeaway was for the average police officer, what about for the average African-American man in New York, Atlanta, Cleveland, St. Louis, Ferguson, any major city?
BRATTON: What's your question?
LEMON: I said, what is the takeaway when --
BRATTON: They're going to have to make the individual decision as to what the takeaway is for each and one of them in terms of that their issues are, what the concerns are, I am not going to speak for them.
LEMON: How can you -- what can the police department do to restore trust between the department and members of the community?
BRATTON: We are doing a lot of it here in New York. In particular, in the process of retraining the whole department on issues of use of force. We are in the process of acquiring body cameras. We are in the process of changing a lot of our guidelines relevant to officer procedures.
This is a department that is (INAUDIBLE) interactive with its various communities. And some of what we see unfortunately such as the circumstances of Mr. Garner's death are the rare exception and not the common place.
We have also an issue that was of great concern to this community. The very large use of stop, question and frisk has been reduced over the last several years, from 700,000 two years ago, this year we'll have fewer than 50,000. And the numbers of arrests that arise out of that reasonable suspicion start with increase very dramatically, so that officers using the strategy much more appropriately than they may have in the past.
This is one example of trying to find ways to reduce friction, tension, and areas of concern with the city's very diverse population.
LEMON: Do you have a message to the Garner family? BRATTON: The message is the same as anybody would reach out to them
and express sorrow with the loss of their loved one.
LEMON: You told the city council back in September that police were being too aggressive in minority neighborhoods. And that it was eroding trust. Is this the case of overaggressive policing?
BRATTON: I'm not going to speak to the case. I've already told you that.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No, no, I mean, your words that you said back in September that police were being --
BRATTON: Speaking in a broader sense, nothing have to do with specificity or to the Garner incident at all.
LEMON: Yes. In a broader sense.
BRATTON: Certainly an impression that the minority community has of this department. Certainly an impression, opinion that was expressed during the recent elections of the mayors and city council members where a lot of them campaigned on the issue. They felt the police department was too aggressive particularly when it came to issues of stop, question, and frisk.
LEMON: Commissioner Bratton, thank you.
BRATTON: OK. Pleasure being with you.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
BRATTON: OK.
LEMON: Appreciate it. You as well.
Want to bring in now Tom Verni. He's here in the studio with me now. He is a former NYPD detective who, through his long career, worked as a patrol officer, community policing officer, and police academy instructor.
What did you make of what the commissioner just said?
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, it brings up a lot of valid points. I think there is a general disconnect between communities in general. Whether it be New York City community, the Ferguson community, otherwise, and the police and what the police can do. What goes into police training.
The NYPD specifically actually has a program called the Citizens Police Academy where someone like yourself or any citizen in New York City could go through this course. It's a 14-week course at the academy. And they can actually learn a condensed version of what a recruit would learn in six months. And it makes the training very transparent. The courses that are taught there are very hot button issues,
emotionally disturbed people, domestic violence. They go through a firearm simulator. So citizens will actually take the role in a virtual reality case of what a police officer would go through to see how they would react.
LEMON: So the commissioner said that he wouldn't speak specifically to the case obviously because it's ongoing. That's understandable.
VERNI: Right.
LEMON: You're a former member of the police department. When you look at this particular case, and you look at the video of Eric Garner there, as someone -- you've trained police officers.
VERNI: Yes.
LEMON: What do you see in that video?
VERNI: Well, we see someone who was clearly not complying with the police. He was clearly under arrest. He had been arrested 30 some odd times before. So he was no stranger to the criminal justice system. The officers had told him he was under arrest.
Now selling untaxed cigarettes is not in the hierarchy of crimes, it's not the greatest crime of the century. But nonetheless this is a quality of life crime in New York City that the people of New York City in that community would want addressed. They tell their local politicians, and they tell their precinct commanders, I want this as among other issues addressed. And the police go and do that and they try to address it.
LEMON: You don't see excessive force in this video? Everyone is saying, to the average lay person, to a civilian, this looks like excessive force. You have four police officers taking this man down, who, you know, whether you want to say he was -- didn't comply or what have you. But it seems like it was aggressive.
VERNI: Right. Well, I mean, when I say he didn't comply, that's just based on the simple fact that you see in the video, that he did not turn around and put his hands behind his back and agreed to be handcuffed, which that would be compliance.
There is a force continuum that all police departments use. And that can be whether it be physical force or vocal commands. And then we have to kind of ramp it up to physical force when someone is not compliant in a case.
LEMON: All right. Tom, stand by, because I need to get back out to my colleagues in the field now.
Want to get to CNN's Deborah Feyerick.
Deborah, you're out there. You're in Times Square. What's going on?
Deb, are you there? DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hey, Don, I
apologize. There is activity up here. We were walking along the West Side Highway. You could hear behind us, actually, a number of unmarked police vehicles. Their lights on. They're actually, shepherding the crowd. A couple hundred strong. Who came off the West Side Highway. Now marching down Broadway.
We just passed Lincoln Center. And we're headed over to Columbus Circle. Probably in your direction, Don. You can probably hear us making our way towards you right now.
This is a very organic crowd. People heard about the demonstrations on Twitter. And they simply met up to join and to make their voices heard. A lot of people, feeling very strongly that they wanted to take part in this. So we're now headed down the Columbus Circle. And there are about, I would say, 25, 30 police officers with officials that are also marching with their men that are carrying batons and wearing helmets, just protectively. Very organized. Very peaceful. And we are headed your way, Don.
LEMON: All right. Deborah Feyerick, stand by. Chris Cuomo. Also the police commissioner joining us this evening.
If you're just joining us, the Police Commissioner Bill Bratton of New York City said there have been 30 arrests so far in New York City. He expects more to come. He said it has been nonviolent. And so far there has been no vandalism. But again these are people who are exercising their right to protest, most of them, peaceful here in New York City.
We're carrying it for you live right here on CNN.
When we come back, more on our breaking news, protests spreading all across the city. This city tonight in the wake of a grand jury's decision not to charge a white police officer in the chokehold death of a black man here in New York.
Don't go anywhere. We are live tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back to breaking news coverage. That was New York's Grand Central Station. It was earlier tonight. Protests are spreading all across the city of New York. CNN's
Joe Johns is in Staten Island tonight where Eric Garner lost his life back in July.
And, Joe, Eric Garner, 43 years old. Father of six. Lived and died in Staten Island. What's happening there now?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: We have seen crowds come and go, Don, quite frankly. And right now it's pretty quiet.
If you look over my shoulder here, you see just a handful of people here at the scene where that altercation occurred in July of this year. The middle of July. Not many people at all. Earlier this evening there was a larger crowd. Interspersed with a lot of media. And from time to time we saw people coming through, talking to the cameras including the father, in fact, of Eric Garner. And one of the things he did was call on the crowd to remain nonviolent.
He said as far as he was concerned he didn't want anybody here in New York City, any other family to suffer in the same way his family has suffered over the last several months. So a few others, a councilwoman came by. We saw some just regular folks expressing a lot of rage, a lot of anger, and saying -- you know, one man I talked to at least told me, in his view, no matter how you dress, no matter how many times you demonstrate, you still get the same reaction from the police.
LEMON: Yes.
JOHNS: In his view, that was something along the lines of stop and frisk.
LEMON: Right.
JOHNS: So there are deep concerns here in Staten Island. But once again just look other places, we've seen no violence. There has been very peaceful, but there is a deep level of concern, I think more than anything. People have said tonight that they want their voices to be heard -- Don.
LEMON: Indeed. Yes, and the police commissioner pointing that out, again saying so far, and the police commissioner came at the top of the show. Thirty arrests so far. And he said he expects more to come. But it has been nonviolent. No vandalism to report at this point.
Joe Johns, stand by. We'll get back to you.
I want to go now to Jonathan Moore, an attorney for the family of Eric Garner.
Thank you.
Thank you.
LEMON: For joining us. How is the family doing?
JONATHAN MOORE, ATTORNEY FOR ERIC GARNER'S FAMILY: Well, they're upset. It's been a tough day for them. It's been a tough four months actually. Since July. So this is -- this is -- a strong family though. And they're trying very hard to be positive.
LEMON: They had a press conference tonight in Harlem. And I want you to listen to the widow Esaw.
MOORE: Yes.
LEMON: Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ESAW GARNER, ERIC GARNER'S WIFE: I'm determined to get justice for my husband because he shouldn't have been killed in that way. Shouldn't have been killed in any way. He should be here, celebrating Christmas and Thanksgiving and everything else with his children and his grandchildren. And he can't. Why? Because a cop did wrong.
Somebody that get paid to do right did wrong. And he is not held accountable for it. But my husband's death will not be in vain. As long as I have a breath in my body I will fight the fight to the end. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Very strong.
MOORE: Yes.
LEMON: Very strong word there. How does one counsel a family tonight? What have you said to them?
MOORE: You know, it's a lot of tears. A lot of pain that you feel. That you share with them. You know, people find inner strength in their god, their religion, and their family. And this is a very strong family. Eric's mother is a real rock for that family. Eric's wife is also very strong as you just saw, very strong, powerful woman. But I think they feel very concerned about going forward to try to get justice.
LEMON: Why do you think there was no indictment?
MOORE: That's a -- that's a hard question to answer. I was concerned when I read in the paper today that all of the officers other than Mr. Pantaleon (sic) were given immunity for their testimony which meant they could never be criminally prosecuted for what happened. And so it seemed that really disturbed me because this was not just about the actions of one officer. It's about the actions of a group of officers.
You see the video over and over again you. See all these officers on top of him. And including one on his head. I mean, it's just, it's -- it's difficult to watch.
LEMON: Even in the viewing of that video, people see it differently. You heard -- I don't know if you heard the police commissioner on at the top of the show. At the beginning of the show. And then also former NYPD police officer who did training. Said Eric Garner was resisting.
Do you see him resisting in that video?
MOORE: Well, I don't see resisting. I see -- in fact I see his hand up. I see him backing away. They're trying to deal with him. And then I see somebody come from behind and go around his neck and take him to the ground. That's what I see. I don't see resisting. LEMON: What do you know about Mr. Garner's history with the officers?
In the video you can hear him saying, you know, you guys are harassing, I'm tired of this. It ends today.
What do you know about his history with the officers?
MOORE: With those particular officers, I don't know the history of those particular officers. I know that that was his work location, so to speak. He was -- that's how he made his living by selling loose cigarettes. People can condemn that. But a lot of people are forced to make a living on the sort of underground economy. That's how he did it. He was married for 27 years. He supports a lot -- supported a lot of children, he has the grandchildren.
He was, you know, working hard at what he did. He was considered a peacemaker in that area. He was, earlier in the day, had broken up a fight. And the quality of life campaign targeted him as somebody who they would go after, over and over again. And you have to wonder, really, whether it is worth it to have that kind of focus on such a minor infraction.
LEMON: Infraction, yes.
MOORE: When somebody can lose a life for it.
LEMON: Can you say --
MOORE: I don't even know, to tell you the truth, why they were arresting him? They should have told he should get a summons.
LEMON: Yes.
MOORE: Because this is not a -- this is not an arresting offense.
LEMON: I had a discussion about that because if you are selling what they call contraband or if you don't a vendor license on the streets of New York they write you a summons. They usually don't arrest you.
MOORE: Right.
LEMON: It's to give you a ticket.
MOORE: Right.
LEMON: Stand by, though, Jonathan, because I want to get out to our reporters out in the field.
MOORE: Sure.
LEMON: We want to go to Deborah Feyerick or Athena? We're going to get to Athena Jones. Athena Jones is in Washington where there are more protests tonight over the chokehold death of Eric Garner.
Athena, what are you seeing?
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don. We're following a protest that's been going on for several hours now. At its strongest, 300, 400 people were out. Now we're about I'd say less than 100 but they're still very active, very vocal, shouting things like, "out of your homes, into the streets." Trying to draw more people out. Holding signs saying, "Black lives matter," "Justice for Eric Garner," "We indict the system." "The system of the United States needs to change."
I spoke with a protester earlier who's out with her younger brother. She said she came out because she was hurt. She was hurt by the decision not to indict the officer in the Eric Garner case. Her younger brother, a young black man, she said had been stopped by the police without cause. More times than he could count. It was important for her to come out and be part of this protest. So that's what we've been seeing today.
This protest has covered a large swath of the northwest part of Washington. It has been peaceful. The police have been largely hands off. They have been helping block roads and sort of help direct the protesters. But we haven't seen any interaction really between the police and the protesters. They've been standing along the sidelines so that's what we're seeing now. A very vocal crowd. Angry but peaceful -- Don.
LEMON: All right. Athena Jones, stand by. We'll get back to you.
I want to get back to Jonathan Moore now, the Garner family attorney.
Is the family aware of these protests happening really across the country?
MOORE: Yes. I think they are aware. I think they understand like a lot of people. This is not just a Staten Island problem or a New York problem. It is an American problem. This kind of violence occurs not just in our city, but, unfortunately, in other cities around the country. I think President Obama spoke to that today. And -- about the need to establish a sense of -- that people, should be treated equally.
LEMON: And so did the mayor of New York City. Very eloquently, by the way.
MOORE: Yes. The mayor as well. And, you know, I think that -- you know, there are some lessons to be learned from this. You know, New York has gone through really 20 years of really overpolicing up until the recent election. And we saw in the last 10 years the overuse of stop and frisk.
LEMON: Yes.
MOORE: And it created a culture in the city, in the police department, that led to this kind of conduct.
LEMON: We've got to go. But stand by. We'll get back to you throughout this broadcast if need be. Thank you, Jonathan Moore, Garner family attorney.
MOORE: Sure.
LEMON: And again our thoughts with the family. Can you let them know that?
MOORE: I will.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
We're going to be right back with our breaking news. Protests in New York over the chokehold death of Eric Garner. But first I want you to take a look at this editorial cartoon. It's from tomorrow's "New York Daily News." It is by Bill Bramhall.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back to our breaking news coverage, these live pictures now of New York City. The grand jury decided not to indict Officer Daniel Pantaleo and the chokehold death of Eric Garner. Protests have spread all across New York City and they're spreading around the country. Who want to look at what's behind this grand jury decision. I want to bring in now Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst, Mark O'Mara, legal analyst and colonel defense attorney and Sunny Hostin, legal analyst and former federal prosecutor.
I'm not sure if you guys can all see air. But I want you to take a look at two things, and both from the Daily News. First, this is Bill Bramhall's cartoon from the New York Daily News tomorrow and it says it's the Statue of Liberty and says "I can't breathe." And now, lets' go to the cover of the Daily News tomorrow, an all black cover with -- sorry, it's a goddess of justice saying, "I can't breathe." And then the cover of the New York Daily News and it's, grand jury clears chokehold -- choke cop, and then it says, "We can't breathe." Sunny, what do you make of the images?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know I -- I feel like I can't breathe, right? I think that it resonates with what is going on and resonates with so many people. The notion that you can see an unarmed man, choked, using a chokehold technique that is banned by the police. That he says 11 times, "I can't breathe" they do not perform CPR, they're very casual when he falls to the ground. We see it all on video, we see a man dying on video, and there is no indictment. How frustrated do people feel on the heels of the Ferguson decision? On the heels of the Trayvon Martin case? On the heels of so many other cases.
LEMON: And we're seeing that play out as the video was rolling next to you, Sunny, you see all the protesters that are out now. I have to ask, Jeffrey Toobin. Jeffrey, I'm not sure if you were able to hear my conversation with the New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton, but so far it's 30 arrests more to come, not violent, no vandalism. But he wouldn't speak specifically to the video, but stood by the decision. What did you make of the commissioner's remark?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think, you know Bill Bratton is in a difficult position, because he is part of the de Blasio administration, which dedicated itself to changing a lot of what's gone on with the New York police department. Especially, when it comes to race relations and most specifically when it comes to stop and frisk.
LEMON: And he, would didn't he, he was one of the originators of stop and frisk.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: He was one of the origin originators. I mean, Bill Bratton was police commissioner in New York under Rudolph Giuliani long ago. Then, went on to Los Angeles and now has come back. But, -- he, along with Mayor de Blasio has dedicated himself to trying to restore the relationship between -- the NYPD and people of color. But now, he is stuck with this appalling situation and this frankly, very hard to understand decision by the grand jury. So, it's understandable that he doesn't want to talk about that, in particular but, he has got to deal with the fallout.
LEMON: Right.
TOOBIN: He has got to deal with trying to restore this relationship.
LEMON: The trust.
TOOBIN: And this decision in Staten Island is going to do nothing but poison the relationship.
LEMON: And I mentioned, I asked him, how would they restore the trust and he mentioned, you know, what they were doing. Mark, I have to ask, ask you this -- the medical examiner's office, ruled Garner's death to homicide and there was video, what else does, what else would someone need for an indictment if you see -- people are being asked to believe something that is right in front of their faces, something different than what they see on that video.
MARK O'MARA, LEGAL ANALYST AND COLONEL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I still want to have -- I do have faith in the system, I do and want to have faith in the grand jury system. We been spoiled now that we watched the Mike Brown grand jury and at least we got a chance to see maybe what they were thinking and some of the evidence they have. We don't have the luxury in this case. I have to look at it and say, how could 23 people look at this case, and say, that we are not going to consider criminally negligent manslaughter which sort of requires a criminal lack of care.
A violence -- sort of negligence is in lawyers world, it's a lack of standard of care, a carelessness in the way that Eric Garner was treated. I'm frustrated because, this is a great case for us to have said we're not going to allow this. This is the landmark case cops cannot act this way in a minor crime with an event where it led to a death. And unfortunately, now, we still have to try and make sense and trust in the system that to become up with a -- at a decision that didn't make sense.
LEMON: As you can see, our correspondents are out there right in the thick of it. That was Deborah Feyerick, you see. Where going to get to Deborah as shortly here on CNN, she's going to tell us what is going on. I have to ask you this Sunny, as a mother -- and you and I talked earlier, as the mother -- of a black and Hispanic son. How do you explain this instance? What do you say to him?
HOSTIN: You know? I don't know. I know when I came back from Ferguson, I wanted to have a talk with him and he already had been following the coverage. And he was sort of saying, "I know. I know. I can't believe this." I have been here all day. I haven't had a chance to speak to him. But -- I don't know what I can say at this point. Because again, we have this on video and it is such a clear case of excessive force to me. You know, what is the message from this grand jury decision is it that his life doesn't matter?
That black lives don't matter? I think the message is loud and clear from this decision. My only hope though is that, now that we know that the department of justice is looking at it. Now, that we know the attorney general has come out and has said we are looking at this. I think that there will be review of this. Bottom line is we have seen many federal prosecutions and investigations that are successful after an unsuccessful...
LEMON: Right.
HOSTIN: State investigation, and perhaps that is the message for my son.
(CROSSTALK)
HOSTIN: Perhaps the message is, we still have -- a way to go, but perhaps justice can be had.
LEMON: Is that, is that Jeffrey or Mark?
TOOBIN: Yes, it is Don. I think -- this is Jeff.
LEMON: And quickly go ahead.
TOOBIN: I just wanted to expand on that point a little bit. You know, I think the prospects for a federal prosecution of, of Darren Wilson are remote. But I think the chances of a federal prosecution in connection with Eric Garner's death are actually much, much better. If you look at how the police behaved here, and if you look at what is very potentially a racial motivation that a jury could infer from this conduct.
LEMON: OK.
TOOBIN: That I think is very different from the Wilson case, and could really result in a prosecution in federal court.
LEMON: Alright, stand by, Jeffrey Toobin and Mark O'Mara, Sunny Hostin. When we come right back, more on breaking news, protests here in New York over the grand jury decision not to indict a white officer in the chokehold death of a black suspect.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: We're covering the breaking news here on CNN for you tonight. Protests spreading across New York City, in the wake of the chokehold death of Eric Garner, and my colleague, Deborah Feyerick has started getting ready earlier. She's out in the heart of it, in Times Square with protesters. Deb, take it away.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, we can tell you, Don. We started here about six hours ago. The protesters were at Times Square, went over to Rockefeller center and the Christmas tree could not get there. Proceeded to go over to the west side highway, shut down traffic and that's really what their goal was. It was to shuttle the traffic. It was to take the streets. It was to show everyone that "this is what democracy looks like in their words, and that's really what they've done."
They have been walking now for close to sick hours and we were told a little bit ago, Don, to slow up because, the group that we have been marching with is now going to meet up with the group that was on the west side highway. These are sort of demonstrations that were very well organized, they were broadcast on twitter, that's how a lot of people knew to come out here, which they did. Some people just said, they heard, they saw it on television and they decided to join these marchers. And these marchers have been going strong -- the police have really given them, very wide latitude. They have been able to keep a perimeter around the crowd, make sure they get where they're going, they stopped traffic, they have helped, helped some of the drivers that they are marching.
LEMON: Right.
FEYERICK: And sort of, almost collaborative, if that's the word for it, experience. Don.
LEMON: Yeah, the police commissioner said they would allow people to protest peacefully, that's what they're doing tonight. He said, so far we spoke to him about -- about 35 minutes ago. He said that 30 arrests then, but he expected more. Deborah Feyerick will be out as well as the rest of our correspondents, reporters and producers out in the field for the breaking news. I want to talk about the forensics here, because the city's medical examiner ruled the death of Eric garner. A homicide caused by chokehold compression of the chest. And his position during the physical restraint by police -- I want to know what Larry Kobilinsky -- Lawrence Kobilinsky thinks, that he is a forensic scientist and the chairman of the department of sciences at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. What do you see when you look at the video?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I see a chokehold. And they come in different varieties. In one type of chokehold there is a compression of the airway, it's usually done with the forearm and it leads to as constrict (ph) on consciousness and ultimately, cardiac arrest and death. It's a very dangerous chokehold because you can damage the very delicate structures in the throat, the cricoids cartilage, the hyoid bone and the larynx, very dangerous.
LEMON: Yeah. KOBILINSKY: And the other kind of chokehold compresses the blood vessels in the neck.
LEMON: Alright. Stand by, I want to get, I want to get back out to my colleagues. I'm sorry Mr. Kobilinsky.
Deborah Feyerick is out. Deb you're out, Spike Lee was on earlier with Anderson, his promises that he's going to out in the crowd to join the protestors. He is out there, go ahead Deb.
FEYERICK: Yeah, and that's exactly what he did. Spike Lee and his son here, walking with the protesters, taking the streets. Have you seen anything like this before?
SPIKE LEE, DIRECTOR: Not in a while. My son, Jackson, he went at the funeral for, for him and feel it was important to bring my son to the St. Louis funeral of Michael Brown and we were at home, as I left -- ends the show and I said, let's go out, get your camera. My son has his camera right here, so out here, documenting.
FEYERICK: How do you feel the mood of the people? The fact that there are so many out here from so many...
LEE: People angry. I like to -- really stress at this is a very diverse crowd. This is not -- this has nothing to do with black and white. This is the New Yorkers together, black, brown, beige, yellow, everybody is out here, letting the world know that what happened is not right, and -- letting -- out here, peacefully voicing our opinion.
FGEYERICK: Do you think ultimately, final question that things will change? Do you think this mood will get things to change?
LEE: Yes, yes. This is being seen all over the world. And I think that, total confidence and Attorney General, outgoing Attorney General Eric Holder, get the job done that needs to be done.
FEYERICK: OK.
LEE: Thanks.
FEYERICK: Thank you, director. Take care. Bye-bye.
LEMON: Alright, Deborah...
FEYERICK: So there you have it. Famous people, all kinds of a people that are out here -- and that's what it's so amazing, Don, about the diversity of these crowds. It's really been remarkable, Don.
LEMON: Alright. Deborah Feyerick, thank you, out in the crowd with Spike Lee, joined by his son. You know, you from here. What do you say -- what do you make -- before we talk more about chokeholds. What do you make of this happening in New York City?
KOBILINSKY: It's shocking. It's a tragic loss of life and it shouldn't have happened. They were...
LEMON: And the protests?
KOBILINSKY: Well, I think people certainly have a right to protest and express themselves, looking for change. Good police training should have prevented something like this from happening. And there are a lot of things police can do, to prevent something like this. The most important weapon that a police officer has is communication and a strong voice -- have repeated attempts might have salvaged the situation.
LEMON: Rather than -- you saw was a chokehold right?
KOBILINSKY: I sure did.
LEMON: And so you said three types of -- three different chokeholds. One that can constrict air with the other constricts blood --
KOBILINSKY: The blood vessels.
LEMON: Vessels. And then one that does both.
KOBILINSKY: There's a combination of both. Clearly, if you compress the, the veins, the jugular veins, and the carotid arteries in the neck -- and by the way you will see hemorrhaging, if that's the case and that has been reported. That will cause Ischemia, a lack of oxygen going to the brain, unconsciousness in a matter of seconds, when the brain is depleted of oxygen a few minutes, death, irreversible.
LEMON: Do you know what? And you know, I'm up against the clock here, but I...
KOBILINSKY: Sure.
LEMON: Are you surprised if Officer Wilson wasn't indicted?
KOBILINSKY: I -- I was. I wasn't that a member of the grand jury. There may be things they heard I didn't hear. But I think that this should have been prevented. I don't know what the intent was I think the police were intimidated by the size of Eric Garner who was a big man. He had a lot of problems, health wise. And this was -- there were a number of factors that came together that caused the death.
LEMON: Forensic Scientist and Chairman of the Department of Science to John Jay College, Criminal Justice Larry Kobilinsky. Thank you.
KONILINSKY: Thank you.
LEMON: I want to show this picture that is happening now, this is in Times Square, people are sitting down. A large crowd gathered in Times Square really, all over the city of New York are breaking news on these protests continue right after this quick break.
CROWD: I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Breaking news here on CNN. What you are looking at right there on your screen. Protests happening all across the city of New York, this is Times Square specifically, that you are looking at now, the protesters because of the chokehold death of Eric Garner. Charles Barkley weighed in on this. He has something to say about the case has reverberating all across the nation. He sat down with our Brooke Baldwin, and as always he did not hold back. Take a look at the part of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Let me go back to, the notion of white cops killing black people. What about the case for Eric Garner...
CHARLES BARKLEY, TNT NBA ANALYST: Sure, I --
BALDWIN: Here in New York, right? And then you see -- I mean, it's one thing in Ferguson there's some audio, but you see the video, you see these cops (beep) surround him.
BARKLEY: Yes, yes.
BALDWIN: And he ultimately, it was a homicide, he dies.
BARKLEY: I don't think there was a homicide. I don't think it was a homicide, I think...
BALDWIN: Well, what was that? The chokehold, you see it.
BARKLEY: Well, I think the cops were trying to arrest him they got a little aggressive. I think, excessive force, you know, something like that. But to go right to a murder -- when the cops are trying to arrest you, if you fight back, things go wrong. That doesn't mean, I don't think they were trying to kill Mr. Garner, you know -- they -- he was a big man and they tried to get him down. Because I -- just think that we start -- we're giving the cops a bad name and it's really unfair. But if there weren't for them, it will be crazy out here.
BALDWIN: Because of what happened in Ferguson there is a lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration, what can we as a country do with that, this energy right now?
BARKLEY: Well, first of all, we can open a dialogue. And I think that's part of what I was trying --what I did was open a dialogue. Brooke, in fairness, there are some black people out there who are crooks. And when the police come to your neighborhood, it's a tense situation. The only time you interact with the cops is when things are going wrong. That's the only time we ever interact with the cops. We can't just, wait until something like this happen and we have to look at ourselves in the mirror. There is a reason they racially profile us at times. Sometimes it is wrong, but sometimes it's right.
BALDWIN: Do you think Michael Brown is a hero? BARKLEY: I think -- no, I don't know about hero. I think it is a
really unfortunate situation. Because, I don't know what happened that day. I don't think anybody know what happened that day except, officer and Michael Brown. Put it in a situation where it is become a narrative that cops are out there just killing black men. I think that this disingenuous. You have a lot of people who have a hidden agenda. We have a lot of race-baiters in -- the media, they love this stuff.
BALDWIN: What about racial profiling, we heard from Eric Holder, attorney general saying, they want to help put an end to racial profiling. Is that possible?
BARKLEY: It's not possible. It's not possible, because there are some black men out there committing crimes.
BALDWIN: Why do you keep going back to that? I mean, is it onus?
BARKLEY: It's -- onus is on everybody.
BALDWIN: On everyone.
BARKLEY: We -- we, as black people, when the cops try to come and clean up our neighborhood, we can't say they're racially profiling. Because, we know who the crooks are. You know, when you are growing up were everybody know who the crooks are in your neighborhood. We never said anything, because they're black. We never said anything. And then when something like this unfortunate happens was like, well the cops are in our neighborhood profiling us and there is a reason at it, we got some crooks there. I mean, you got to take some personal responsibility.
BALDWIN: But it shouldn't be your own personal responsibility if there are some bad apples in your neighborhood and you are dealing with a police officer who has a pre-existing notion about where you live.
BARKLEY: Yeah, but let me tell you something. It is easy for all these pundits. You have these idiots on television every day, you know what they are? Monday morning quarterbacks. You know what Monday morning quarterbacks are? They don't have the balls to play on Sunday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: I see about (inaudible).
LEMON: This is -- I mean, that was -- I did was not expecting that, joining me now my colleague Brooke Baldwin. Lots -- what's been the feedback?
BALDWIN: I mean, I -- I knew we would get feedback. I knew people would love or love to hate the interview and they would be watching. But it has been tremendous. The outpouring of love, but also criticism, from what Charles Barkley said. You know, I sat down with him yesterday, right before your show. Yesterday evening, which just happened -- the thrust of the conversation was about what happened with the grand jury in Ferguson. You know, we were talking about police. He has a lot of -- police friends, made me think of what was happening with Eric Garner case. And this was before I had any idea that this was going to break today, happened to ask him about this. You know, when you heard what he said, he, he said he didn't believe, he would, he would essentially with grand jury decided. That -- you know, that officer shouldn't be indicted.
LEMON: The people talk about his language and the tone of how he says what he says -- he doesn't care.
BALDWIN: He doesn't care. He doesn't care.
LEMON: Yeah.
BALDWIN: People have called him all kinds of ugly names. He, he talks a lot about, you know -- the noise. You heard him talk about the race- baiting. And, and I think his point -- I think at least whether, if you totally disagree with what he said with me. LEMON: Right.
BALDWIN: And his tone. I -- respect that he said the onus is on all of us...
LEMON: Yeah.
BALDWIN: To try to find some sort of solution.
LEMON: Thank you, Brooke.
BALDWIN: You're welcome. You're welcome any times. LEMON: You're welcome here anytime. Thank you.
BALDWIN: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. We are live tonight with the breaking news. Protest in New York City over the chokehold death of Eric Garner and a July encounter with police. Today, a grand jury decided not to indict Officer Daniel Pantaleo, and reaction to that decision has spread from City Hall, all the way to the White House. We're going to have a very latest on that.
Plus, another woman who accused Bill Cosby of rape, she tells her shocking and emotional story tonight. We've got a whole lot to get to tonight. But I want to begin now with CNN Deborah Feyerick. Deborah is out on the streets with the protesters. She has been there all afternoon and all evening, Deborah what have you been seeing?
FEYERICK: OK. Well now, we are headed done to Madison Square Garden. So, we have been to Rockefeller Center, we have been to the West Side Highway, all 72nd street to Lincoln Center, down past Columbus Circle and now on to Madison Square Garden, taking a people as we go. I want to show you also just how peaceful it is. You can see that the NYPD has community affairs officers out in force.
They are walking behind the crowd. Keeping somewhat respectful distance, not engaging, just sort of following them. Behind me over here that you can't see, there are about a dozen police cars, different cruisers that are also sort of keeping the crowd moving.
Now the crowd is moving on its own, but they're being helped, sort of propelled forward. This is a very organic crowd. Everybody is moving together. It is largely peaceful and they're just going. I asked one person, well, where are you going?
And they said they don't really know. They are just kind of walking. So, we are headed in the direction of Union Square, which is down to 14th Street, just about a mile south of here.
You can see, Madison Square Garden, just to my right, protesters going strong, couple a hundred of them. We'll just keep walking with them -- Don.
LEMON: Deborah Feyerick, we'll get back to you. Standby.
