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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Discussing Charles Barkley's Remarks about Ferguson; Free Speech and the Internet Examined

Aired December 03, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: Charles Barkley is getting quite the backlash for his statements about the Michael Brown shooting. He has defended the police. He's called the Ferguson looters "scumbags" and he's even said that not all racial profiling is wrong.

Joining me on the phone to talk about Barkley's stance is former Olympian John Carlos who disagrees with Charles Barkley. You may remember Carlos from when he won a bronze medal back in 1968 and then did this, a significant gesture, he made the Black Power salute during the medal ceremony. He's also the author of the John Carlos Story.

Thanks so much Mr. Carlos for being part of the program today. First of all, I just want to get your feeling. What issue do you take with what Charles Barkley said?

JOHN CARLOS, OLYMPIAN: First of all, I read the article. He has good points. But I think the thing that concerned me the most was the fact that the used the word, the derogatory word "scumbags" to refer to the young demonstrators or as he say the looters. He had to see police bring up any looters and put them on the stand, convict anyone (ph) of looting.

I remember back in the 60s, you know, with the Black Panthers or any organization that was anti-establishment at time. They were infiltrated by outsiders that came in and arouse the crowd and created mayhem. But when all the dust settles, those individuals that was trying to do things the right way, they were caught.

Mr. Barkley called these individuals scumbag and so forth doesn't help the situation. I think it hurts the situation. And I might add at the same time, if I was to smack Mr. Barkley (inaudible) here today and come back and smack him (inaudible) tomorrow. And then the third day, smack on the side his head, Mr. Barkley might think, "Well, I'm going to defend myself."

But then he think that if can smack him that many times, I might be able to do worse. So, now, I'm not going to do anything to try to defend myself, but that doesn't relieve the anger, the hurt, or the pain - no one understands that. So I'll put my fist to the wall, or I'll keep the chill while I (inaudible) my fist on the window just to release this frustration. And that's what (inaudible) comes about when people get frustrated and (inaudible) and when (inaudible) comes in, anything is possible... BANFIELD: Can I ask you something though, I mean, maybe...

CARLOS: ... create change.

BANFIELD: Mr. Carlos maybe the term scumbag is pretty strident, but at the same time I think there will be a lot of people watching right now who agree with Charles Barkley, that anybody who would set fire to someone's livelihood who was nothing to do with this story, or break- in and steal all of their possessions -- and we've looked at the pictures, there are dozens and dozens of people breaking glass and stealing people's good. They are looting and they are smashing things.

I mean, you don't defend them do you?

CARLOS: I understand what you saying, Ms. Ashleigh, about what you're seeing there. But, you know, I can look at pictures just the same as you can look at pictures. I can look at the pictures in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I can look what's happening in North Carolina as well about (inaudible) is set on fire and people being murdered and so forth and so on.

We all have this in our history. But like I say, frustration will bring about these things. So we can't just look on what's happening (inaudible) and saying that, you know, black people are ridiculous to the point where we can't be seen anywhere other than the fact that we are associated with what's taking place in this situation.

BANFIELD: Maybe I can ask you this. I know that you said about Charles Barkley and I'll quote you, "If you don't have anything good to say, you should keep your mouth shut." But at the same time, you have said in the past about Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods and Sean "P. Diddy" Combs and Snoop Dogg that they don't speak enough.

So, is it just that Charles Barkley is speaking up and not saying what you would agree with?

CARLOS: You know, for instance, like the rappers, I can relate (ph) to rappers. You know, when rap started, East coast rap used to rap about Black history, West coast rap was rapping about what was happening in a city, what was happening in their communities, what was happening with the police and so forth. These individuals lived and then walked the walk and talked to talk. Charles Barkley didn't go through the ghetto, he doesn't live in the ghetto now, I don't think that Charles Barkley wants to hear when they have a crisis in that area. And...

BANFIELD: And neither did Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or Puff Daddy or Snoop Dog, I mean those guys are -- you know, they are at the same economic levels with Barkley.

CARLOS: ... Michael Jordan, might not go through there, Tiger Woods might not go through there. But Snoop Dog, Ice Cube, all of those individuals came from that area. And I'm sure they still go back there even though they've gone up economically. BANFIELD: Do you think it's fair that Charles Barkley's received this criticism? And there is ample criticism online, even calling him an Uncle Tom.

CARLOS: Well I don't think it's fair that Charles Barkley call individual scumbags.

BANFIELD: But do you think it's fair that the reaction has been that his an Uncle Tom?

CARLOS: When you call an individual scumbag and you don't know what the pain is, or you're not even sympathetic to the fact that these individuals are being slaughtered (ph) throughout this nation, and I think there's not a problem with individuals getting killed, a 12- year-old kid get killed 10 seconds after the police get out of their car. Individual who come by the building with his girlfriend walking down the staircase and get gun down by the police in the stairwell? Individuals get shot(ph) to death in the streets of New York or individual go to the police department to get a plunger stuck up his rectum or -- these are atrocities that has taken place and as I said when no one concern himself about your pain or your anguish...

BANFIELD: Can I ask you...

CARLOS: ...friction comes about.

BANFIELD: ... to reflect on the last 46 years. I know -- and I'm going to ask our producers to put the photo off of you with that iconic moment as you were receiving your bronze medal and you did the Black Power salute. And you really suffered so much afterwards, you know, that the endorsement potential, the competing in other games. There was just so much backlash to this. If you look over the last four plus decades, is anything any better, is everything worse, what's your assessment of race relations in the United States from the photograph I'm looking at to today.

CARLOS: Well, I think cosmetically things are better, on the surface things look better but, you know, when you sit back and you think about divide in terms of the wealthy are far more wealthy than they've ever been, the poor are far more poorer than they've ever been, then we have a president of the United States, that's the first black president and they disrespect (ph) it, greater than any president in the history of the presidency. You know, I don't think that days have gotten better, I think things have cosmetically gotten better. They put a good surface (ph) or something, well, I'm not concerned about the surface, I'm concerned about beneath the surface.

BANFIELD: I hope we got a chance to speak again, I'm a big fan of yours, big admirer and I really appreciate your weighing in today. Thank you so much, John Carlos.

CARLOS: I'm a fan of yours as well, Ashleigh. And I hope next I'm not fighting a flu and I could be with you and Mr. Barkley live one day.

BANFIELD: I would welcome that moment any day and I wish you a speedy recovery. I wasn't going to say anything but you're right, we can hear the scratch in your voice. I hope you feel better soon.

CARLOS: Thank you so much.

BANFIELD: Mr. Carlos, thank you for that.

Moving on in the program, ever since that fatal encounter with Michael Brown in August, Darren Wilson has been a man on the move. And he's been in hiding, we're learning, with the help of off-duty police officers protecting him. And now there's a new fear for Wilson, hackers who are trying to track him down online, that's next.

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BANFIELD: We are learning more about the lengths that some people may go to try to harm Officer Darren Wilson and his pregnant wife. Wilson's been getting death threats. And we've known that, but perhaps what's even more alarming is the cyber stalking that has snowballed. Brian Todd looks at the threats and how police are protecting Wilson.

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BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's been threatened over the phone, in e-mails, on social media. Apparently, there are bounties on his head. Now, CNN has learned Darren Wilson is protected by a detail of off-duty police officers who have been by his side since the August shooting of Michael Brown.

JIM PASCO, EXEC. DIR., NATIONAL FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: Fraternal order of police members from the surrounding area have volunteered in and help provided him with security from that time, right up until the present.

TODD: How long will you be doing this?

PASCO: We'll do it as long as we have to.

TODD: Fraternal order of Police Director Jim Pasco, says the off-duty officers are not being paid by Wilson or anyone else to protect him. Pasco would not elaborate on the nature of the protection. It's likely very discrete.

RON HOSKO, LAW ENFORCEMENT LEGAL DEFENSE FUND: A low-key protection, not a marked unit in front of the house that draws us much attention as it may divert maybe one person, maybe two people, so that Officer Wilson -- former Officer Wilson, can sleep at night.

TODD: Wilson's lawyer say it's not just Darren Wilson these officers are protecting.

GREG KLOEPPEL, ATTORNEY FOR DARREN WILSON: There are threats out there not only against himself but his family as well.

TODD: Including Wilson's new wife who is pregnant and on-leave from the Ferguson police. One concern the attorney's and law enforcement experts have, efforts by hackers and others to track Darren Wilson down.

HOSKO: There are cyber activist in our world who are going to be actively trying to find out where is Darren Wilson. They are going to be trying to find out where did Darren Wilson spend his last hour, so that they can track and put out in public where he is and really create an enhanced threat to him.

TODD: St. Louis County Community Activist John Gaskin doesn't begrudge Wilson the protection be he says others in the Ferguson area will be upset by it and the people protecting Wilson should ask themselves some tough questions.

JOHN GASKIN, ST. LOUIS COUNTY COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: The question that will come to mind for me is do they feel as though Darren Wilson was doing his job, and the question even becomes would they have done it?

TODD: Fraternal order of Police Director Jim Pasco is critical of the Ferguson Police Department, saying it was "unwilling or unable" to protect Darren Wilson while he was still formerly part of their force after the Michael Brown shooting.

Pasco says the Ferguson Police never protected Darren Wilson and said, "That's what the police department is suppose to do." We tried several times to get response from the Ferguson Police but we didn't hear back. Brian Todd, CNN Washington.

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BANFIELD: Well, Darren Wilson and his family aren't the only people getting death threats and other kinds of threats. A white supremacist made a call threatening a bounty on this man and you might recognize him, he's a St. Louis alderman named Antonio French.

CNN legal analyst Paul Callan and Sunny Hostin are back with me now. How serious is it to threaten someone's life say in-person or online?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, if it's communicated over the internet, it can be very serious. There's a Federal law called interstate threats punishable by five years in federal prison if you communicate what the courts define as a true threat as opposed to just exaggerated political commentary. So these cases are kind of hard to distinguish is to what's a true threat and what's politics.

BANFIELD: And is it that what Jaleel Tariq Abdul-Jabbar, who is alleged to have made this threat against Officer Darren Wilson over the internet, on Facebook, is facing something along those lines?

CALLAN: That's exactly what he's charged but his defense is going to be this. He doesn't know Officer Wilson personally and this was just a political commentary...

BANFIELD: OK.

CALLAN: ... it was not a true threat.

BANFEILD: So, Sunny that brings something very unusual and I'm going to say it anyway and that is free speech. When does free speech enter into the realm of a death threat, a true honest death threat that's actionable?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, certainly, I mean you have your right to free speech and you could make political statements and you can state your feelings but when it cross -- it crosses the line when you start threatening someone and making death threats.

I mean I think what's, you know, I think the officers that are off- duty and protecting Darren Wilson, officers do protect their own and he is entitle -- they're entitled to do that quite frankly. And I think it's absurd at this point that people are threatening his life. I mean the legal system whether or not you agree with the decision or not it -- you know, worked. I mean it worked. I mean the process is over. And so this is lawlessness. This is -- you know, you can't condone that.

BANFIELD: You can't. There's no way. I mean it's just...

HOSTIN: You can't condone it.

BANFIELD: Even free speech please if you're going to suggest someone...

CALLAN: You know what...

BANFIELD: ... should die for their views.

CALLAN: ... Department of Justice put a study over 3 million people a year get threatened interstate like this...

BANFILED: Interesting. Sure.

CALLAN: ... but they're very selective about the case they prosecute.

BANFIELD: Be careful folks because...

CALLAN: Yes.

BANFIELD: ... what you post on the internet can be a crime.

HOSTIN: That's right.

BANFIELD: Paul Callan and Sunny Hotsin, thank you both. Appreciate it.

CALLAN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: So, what would you do if you had say five or six hours left to live, because there's a Texas inmate thinking that very same thing. It's a crime he admitted to doing actually, murdering his in-laws, shooting them. And I say that this is kind of past tense now because an appeals court just in the last hour and a half or so has actually granted a stay, but is it going to be permanent or is that man going to die? And when you hear about how mentally ill he is, it may keep you paused (ph). (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: So, imagine the relief, you're about six-hours away from execution, the phone rings. And yes, you have been granted a reprieve. This is the breaking news out of Texas this hour. A federal court of appeals has just handed down a stay of execution for a mentally ill inmate named Scott Panetti. Here is the tragic background of the story.

Panetti shot and killed his in laws, Joe and Amanda Alvarado, in cold blood 14-years ago in front of his wife and three-year-old daughter. At the time -- by the time of the murders, he's been hospitalized more than a dozen times suffering from psychosis and delusion. And during the trial Mr. Panetti dress in a cowboy costume, and acted as is own attorney believe it or not. And his in defense try to call -- subpoena Jesus and subpoena the Pope. And then for good measure, John F. Kennedy as witnesses. He mailed these incredibly bizarre drawings to his family. In fact, he drew over just about every court document he could get his hand on.

Joining me is CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

So, here's my question. We as Americans decided some years ago that we don't execute the legally insane. We also don't execute the intellectually disabled under an IQ of 70. But that man, as his own attorney, probably could even mouth a defense to be deemed insane. How was he allowed to act as his own attorney?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this is one of the hardest things judges have to deal with which is when you have people who are clearly irrational but insisting that they can defend themselves because it's a double problem for a judge.

First of all, you have to decide whether someone is fit to stand trial, and simply understands what's going on...

BANFIELD: Is he competent -- yes.

TOOBIN: Is he competent, right.

BANFIELD: ... did he understand...

TOOBIN: Right.

BANFIELD: ... can you help in his defense?

TOOBIN: Correct.

BANFIELD: Simple.

TOOBIN: But, then -- well, it's not simple because a lot of these judgments are very difficult, you know, we throw around terms like mentally ill, like insane. Judges have been trying to define these terms for 100 of years and we can't figure out...

BANFIELD: Sure. TOOBIN: ... how do it.

BANFIELD: The competent is a heck of a lot more simple that insane.

TOOBIN: Insane, yes. But, that's not -- first he decided whether someone is competent, and that sort of low bar. But then, you have to decide whether they are fit to defend themselves which is a somewhat higher standard.

The judge in this case apparently said he could. Remember the Zacarias Moussaoui trial...

BANFIELD: Yeah.

TOOBIN: ... the 10th hijacker from 9/11 -- 20th, sorry -- from 911.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

TOOBIN: He -- this was a torment to the judge in that case because she had to decide whether he was fit to stand trial, fit to defend himself. She ultimately basically forced him to have a lawyer.

This guy clearly needed a lawyer. And one of the problem is now is that the legal system just can not deal with people who are this crazy.

BANFIELD: What do you think will -- we've got to day (ph) now, this man was slated to be executed in about five hours, and just 10 seconds or less, what do you think is going to happen?

TOOBIN: I think it will kick around for a few more years in the appeals court. But, this is Texas, they tend to execute people and I would imagine that at the end of the day or many days, the state carries out it sentence.

BANFIELD: All right. Well, it's fascinating. And it's also fascinating you could be deemed competent again, you can be re- competent, you know, maybe that's where they'll...

TOOBIN: These judgments are really hard.

BANFIELD: Yeah. And this one I'm not so sure I agree with so far. But Jeff Toobin...

TOOBIN: OK.

BANFIELD: Thanks for coming. It's always good to have you. I appreciate it.

Thanks for watching everybody. My colleague, Wolf is going to start after a quick break. But, first, we're just four days away from CNN Heroes it's been all start tribute, hosted by our own Anderson Cooper. And this year's show is packed was some pretty amazing guests and some artist who come out to honor the top 10 CNN Heroes for 2014. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have the power to do anything, to make a difference, inspire and change the world.

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to actually still do something for Afghanistan. I want to help the people and the adults (ph).

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're giving them the best present in order to make a better future.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm here to honor real heroes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's going to be a great evening.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to CNN Heroes, an all-star tribute.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is my honor to hug the weightlifter with the biggest heart ever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never worry about what you can't do. Never, ever quit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's incredibly humbling to be recognized as a CNN hero.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This has been an amazing time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're killing (ph) me CNN, I got (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See the stars come out to honor the top 10 CNN Heroes of 2014. CNN Heroes, an All-Star Tribute, Sunday on CNN

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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