Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Interview with William Bell, Father of Man Shot Dead by Police; Grand Jury Decides not to Indict Officers Involved in Eric Garner's Death

Aired December 04, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Happening now in the NEWSROOM, choke hold.

CROWD: I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe.

COSTELLO: New York explodes after a grand jury shocker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This fight isn't over. It just begun.

COSTELLO: A white NYPD officer not indicted in the death of 43-year- old Eric Garner.

ERIC GARNER, KILLED BY NYPD POLICE OFFICER: I can't breathe. I can't breathe.

COSTELLO: His wife stunned.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hell no!

COSTELLO: A city shaken.

CROWD: One human family. I can't breathe.

COSTELLO: As promises of rebuilding relationships are announced.

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: All lives must be valued, all lives.

COSTELLO: CNN is with the family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That wasn't any reason for anybody to get locked up out here, go through the same (EXPLETIVE DELETED) that we're going through all the time.

COSTELLO: America asking this morning, how could this have happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You got to be kidding me. They didn't indict him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that's crazy, that is ridiculous. I cannot believe that.

COSTELLO: Let's talk live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO (on camera): And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. Disbelief. That was the reaction from Eric Garner's family after a grand jury decided not to indict the police officer involved in his death. Just weeks after a similar decision sparked violent riots in Ferguson, Missouri, though, Garner's family urged protesters here in New York to keep the peace. But they did vow to fight for justice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ESAW GARNER, WIDOW: A, to do right, did wrong. A is not held accountable for it. But my husband's death will not be in vain. As long as I have a breath in my body, I will fight the fight to the end.

GWEN CARR, MOTHER: I don't know what video they were looking at. Evidently it wasn't the same one that the rest of the world was looking at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: My next guest knows the pain of losing a child. His son Sean Bell was celebrating his bachelor party when he was shot and killed by police eight years ago. Bell was leaving a nightclub with two friends when an altercation occurred. And that's when a team of undercover cops got involved. They fired 50 shots, ultimately killing Bell. He was set to get married the next day.

In 2007, three officers were indicted on multiple charges in Bell's case. And just one year later, they were acquitted, but they were later fired from the New York Police Department, and the city later agreed to pay Bell's family $3.2 million.

Bell's father William joins me now. Thank you so much for coming in, sir. I appreciate it.

WILLIAM BELL, FATHER OF SEAN BELL: Thank you.

COSTELLO: First of all, I want to get your reaction to the grand jury's decision.

BELL: I don't know what they were looking at, if they saw this film. You see a couple of officers have their knee on his neck, and his head pushed into the concrete. Now, a healthy person couldn't withstand that. (inaudible), you're talking about five or six big men. I don't think the (inaudible), come on, that's a little kind of extreme. They really put something on him. You know.

COSTELLO: I want to read you something that Congressman Peter King said, and I'll show you what he said, too. First of all, he thanked the grand jury via tweet for doing justice. Then he told our Wolf Blitzer that the officer's actions were not responsible for Eric Garner's death. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PETER T. KING, R-N.Y.: I feel strongly the police officers should not have been indicted. I've been following this case from the start. You had a 350-pound person who is resisting arrest. The police were trying to bring him down as quickly as possible. If he had not had asthma and a heart condition and was so obese, almost definitely he would not have died from this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: The officer involved came out and apologized and said he feels really badly that he caused Mr. Garner's death. When you hear Congressman King say these things, what goes through your mind?

BELL: It's like, you know, he don't really mean what he's saying. I'll be honest with you. Come on, the man is 350 pounds. But you've got over 1,000 pounds on him. So like I said, with the health problems he had, it happened quicker. But without the health problems, he still would have had a lot of pain and a lot of -- you know, he might have died either way, a healthy person, cutting off a lot of wind (inaudible).

COSTELLO: You went through some of the same sort of thing. You sort of have to justifying -- your son was killed by police, right? I'm sure a lot bad was said about your son.

BELL: That's always. That's always the case. Regardless. If you think about it, every young man that got killed, never had a weapon. Nobody had a weapon. So why is it so justified to kill these young people if they don't have nothing? They said they was afraid, in fear for their life.

COSTELLO: He was a big guy. Mr. Garner was a big guy.

BELL: I'd be afraid of him, too. You know, but then again, aren't they taught self-defense? They said a young man lunged at them. You're supposed to know self-defense. You can knock them out, hit them with a laser. Something.

COSTELLO: With a taser.

BELL: With a taser, right.

COSTELLO: Well, in fairness, I just want to run this by you, Garner, while he did put up his hands, police say he resisted arrest. I want to read you something from the New York Post. "Eric Garner and Michael Brown had much in common, not the least of which was this. On the last day of their lives, they made bad decisions, especially bad decisions. Each broke the law, petty offenses to be sure, but sufficient to attract the attention of police. There are many New Yorkers, politicians, activists, trial lawyers, all the usual suspects who will now seek to profit from a tragedy that wouldn't have happened had Eric Garner made a different decision. He was a victim of himself. It's just that simple." BELL: I don't know how to take that. Because honestly, how do you

create your own demise? Without -- you're trying to go through your--

COSTELLO: I think what they're saying, you're breaking the law, you should expect bad things to happen.

BELL: My son wasn't breaking the law. So, 50 shots. Did he deserve that? So let's think about that. Amadou Diallo, 41 shots. Did he deserve that? He just decided to show them his wallet. That's breaking the law? Think about what they're saying about breaking the law, because a lot of people haven't broken the law and they still end up dead.

COSTELLO: Where do we go from here? There are protests all across the country right now. The president, he's gathered civil rights leaders and community leaders and religious leaders and police from across the country. What more can be done?

BELL: Well, I'm going to say this. There are a lot of people that might not appreciate what I'm saying, but I'll say this. If they committed a crime like we all see that they do, put one of them in jail. One of them have to go to jail just to prove that you're tired of this. But if they're always set free, of course they're going to kill somebody and say, well, it is never going to happen to me. Look at my officers. Look what they're doing. They're not now on the force, but they are getting a pension, they're getting a paid vacation for the rest of their lives. Here, I have to suffer for the rest of my life. See, they will keep going on, and have a family, have kids, have their own kids and raise them. But I'm short that.

COSTELLO: There were protests after your son was killed.

BELL: Yes.

COSTELLO: There were protests after Trayvon Martin.

BELL: Yes. And that's what we're doing.

COSTELLO: There are protests now. So is this the tipping point?

(CROSSTALK)

BELL: We've got to start doing more than that. You know, protests, it just seems like they're doing nothing.

COSTELLO: What do you mean by more than that?

BELL: I don't know. We've got to change the laws, we got to get some laws that protect the people. Everything is protecting the police. I understand they have a hard job. Don't get me wrong. They have a very hard job. I admire them for what they do. Then again, sometimes some of them get too power hungry maybe. They're overboard. They don't care about another person's life. They figure whatever they do or say is okay. And that's our problem. They need to change the little (inaudible) by protecting them too much. You protect a person too much, their head gets swollen, and they don't know how to react. They figure whatever I do, it's okay. That's what we've been seeing. See, after my son, it's more and more and more. Chasing a young man into his house and shoot him. So marching and protesting, it's a good thing, you know, makes people aware of what's going on, but it's not enough. We've got to change the laws.

COSTELLO: Mr. Bell, thank you for coming in. I appreciate it. I know it's hard for you to talk about. I do appreciate it.

BELL: Yes. Thank you very much.

COSTELLO: Just a bit of news into CNN. The New York Police Department is now ramping up its internal investigation into Eric Garner's death. Jason Carroll has more for us from Times Square. What's up?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, as you know, the demonstrators came out here, marched, they protested, they held signs saying that black lives matter. All this now that the grand jury has reached a decision, and since then it has reached that decision, the NYPD says it can now move forward with its internal investigation into Eric Garner's death.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWD: I can't breathe. I can't breathe.

CARROLL: Protesters pouring into the streets of New York last night after a grand jury did not indict New York City police officer Daniel Pantaleo in the choke hold death of 43-year-old Eric Garner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a very painful day for so many New Yorkers.

CARROLL: Arrests made throughout the night as outrage pulsed throughout the city streets for more than nine hours. Most chanting Garner's last words.

CROWD: I can't breathe.

CARROLL: Before dying on this Staten Island street.

GARNER: I can't breathe. I can't breathe.

CARROLL: Police, some in riot gear, blocking intersections as protesters began shutting down the city's most iconic landmarks. Stopping the flow of traffic into and out of the island of Manhattan for hours. Some lying down right in the middle of the road, the same inside Grand Central Station.

CROWD: I can't breathe.

CARROLL: Where other protesters staged a massive die-in as evening rush hour hit its peak. Police heavily guarding the Rockefeller tree lighting ceremony as protesters tried to disrupt the show. The city's public outcry reaching a fever pitch nationwide. From Los Angeles to Philadelphia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am Eric Garner.

CROWD: I am Eric Garner.

CARROLL: Where protesters took to city hall during their tree lighting ceremony holding up signs reading "black lives matter."

The demonstrations across the country, disruptive but peaceful, fulfilling Garner's family wish.

CARR: We want you to rally, but rally in peace.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No violence. That's all I ask.

CARROLL: Officer Pantaleo said in a statement, "it was never my intention to harm anyone. And I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner." But Garner's wife says it's too late.

ESAW GARNER: Hell no! The time for remorse would have been when my husband was yelling to breathe. That would have been the time for him to show some type of remorse or some type of care for another human being's life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: New York City's mayor also saying last night, Carol, that black lives matter, which he was echoing the phrase that many people out on the streets last night, whether it be here in Times Square or throughout the city, were using as well. Many of those demonstrators say they will continue to protest in Eric Garner's name. Carol?

COSTELLO: And Jason Carroll, I want to ask you more about the differences between what you witnessed in Ferguson after the grand jury decision and what you witnessed here in New York City. Tell me how they were different. Why was it so calm here in New York and not so calm in Ferguson?

CARROLL: It was really like night and day. And part of that I think was due to the police response, the mayor's response. Remember, immediately after you had the incident with Eric Garner in July, you had William Bratton, the police commissioner, come out and say there would be the need for first retraining, more than 30,000 officers in terms of how they dealt with physical confrontations. He said there needed to be a review of the use of force in the department, while still supporting his police officers.

Also, the mayor and the city making continuous efforts to reach out to Eric Garner's family. You really didn't see that in Ferguson. Remember after the grand jury decision in Ferguson, basically the mayor and many city officials went somewhat silent. Not the case here in New York City. You had the mayor immediately out in front of this, speaking from the heart as he talked to the people right after the grand jury decision. You did not see that in Ferguson. I think a lot of people here feel as though that made a difference.

But also remember, Carol, this is a big city that has dealt with controversial shootings in the past and unrest as a result of that. So they had experience to draw from, which they did not have in Ferguson.

COSTELLO: That is true. Jason Carroll, reporting live from Times Square. As Jason said, perhaps the difference between Ferguson and New York was in the way public officials talked about the controversy. New York's Mayor Bill de Blasio opened up his press conference by talking about his biracial son, Dante.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR, NEW YORK CITY: I spent some time with Ben Garner, Eric's father, who is in unspeakable pain. It's a very hard thing to spend time trying to comfort someone you know is beyond the reach of comfort because of what he's been through. I can only imagine.

I couldn't help but immediately think what it would mean to me to lose Dante. Life could never be the same thereafter, and I could feel how it will never be whole again, things will never be whole again for Mr. Garner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: I don't know if that made a difference. But as Jason Carroll told us, the protests in New York were peaceful, despite thousands and thousands of people taking to the street. Let's talk about this. Brooklyn Borough president and former NYPD Captain Eric Adams is here, founder of Yourblackworld.com Boyce Atkins joins me too, as does CNN legal analyst Paul Callan. Welcome to all you, gentleman. Thanks for being here.

Eric, I'll start with you. Was the difference between New York and Ferguson the way public officials talked about the controversy?

ERIC ADAMS, PRESIDENT, BROOKLYN: Clearly. I think the mayor really understood, and what's unique here is when he looks over at his breakfast table, he sees a young man who has been impacted or could be impacted by, not only stop and frisk, but these police-type shootings. It's a different dynamic. That's why it's really important that he's the right person at the right time to tackle this issue, because it's not politics. It's personal.

COSTELLO: And, Boyce, I just want to show you these two headlines from the New York tabloids. I don't know if you can see them, but The New York Daily News says we can't breathe, right? And this is what the New York Post says, it was not a crime. It certainly shows there is a split in America. So I'll ask you that question. Is there two justice systems, one to serve white Americans and another to serve black Americans?

BOYCE WATKINS, FOUNDER, YOURBLACKWORLD.COM: Well, I think we have to realize we live in a country where there are people who always love police, for good reason. When they see police, they know they'll be safe and be protected. But then there's a segment of society, particularly young black males especially, who fear police, many of whom feel this way for logical reasons, because the police are not there to serve and protect everyone. In many cases, they're there to protect the rich from the poor or the white from the black.

I remember riding along with a cop one time -- my dad was a police officer for 25 years. So I respect good cops. But I remember a cop once telling me that there's a line in his city. He says, look, if you're black and you're past this line, there's a very good chance you're going to be stopped, they're going to ask you questions, they are going to try to find out why you're there. So I think this sort of presumption of criminality amongst people of color is what people are fighting against. And I hope the NYPD is intelligent about this. Because what they have to understand is people are no longer afraid. They're speaking up on this, because so many people have a personal experience with this kind of harassment, profiling and brutality. It's going to have to stop.

COSTELLO: So, Paul, I want to ask you this question, because you were a former prosecutor, you've been in a courtroom, you've been inside grand juries and you've lived in New York City a really long time, and you have worked with police officers. Is the justice system unfair to African-Americans?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think you can say yes and no to that. Certainly I think they are subjected to aggressive policing in a way that white New Yorkers are not. I think there's certainly a perception in the black community that they don't get a fair shake. I think that if you look at cases on a one by one basis, sometimes it's harder to prove that. The reason I say that, for instance, even in this Eric Garner case, is this case about race? Did this happen to him because he was black? Or did it happen to him because he was a 400-pound man that the cops had trouble subduing? Would it have happened if he were Hispanic or Asian or white? There were no racial epithets used in the Eric Garner case.

Now, there may have been a racial component to it. Certainly black people would say, well, Callan, you don't know what you're talking about, it happens to us all the time. It doesn't happen to you. It happened in this case because of race.

So I think New York is a place that really strives to be fair because we have such diversity in the city, and it's reflected in our judiciary, our grand juries, in our police force and other areas. But can we do a better job? Yes, we can do a much better job.

COSTELLO: One of the things I read, and I'll pose this question to you, Eric, is that the reason there weren't violent protests here is because there still is some sense of trust between the police department and the community.

ADAMS: And I agree. I agree. I think you have a mayor that understands that. But also I want to touch on the dynamics of what is at the core of the problem. At the core of the problem is that we use different police tactics based on the communities that we are serving. You can't continue to go from zero to 100 when you are in a community of color and then you have a very contemplative decision, slow moving form of enforcement. So, Eric Garner, there was an opportunity for a conversation. There was an opportunity to deescalate the situation. That is how it's used when you police on Park Avenue in Manhattan. But when you're on Park Place in Brooklyn, there's no time for conversation. You believe you're supposed to go from zero to enforcement, and that enforcement oftentimes is using deadly physical force.

COSTELLO: You were a police officer.

ADAMS: Yes, I was.

COSTELLO: If you were involved in that whole Eric Garner mess, how would you have handled it?

ADAMS: A couple of things. One, it's about a conversation. It's about ensuring that I see this is a large person, get the necessary reinforcements there, and have a conversation. You're being placed under arrest. And then if I have to use non-lethal force, such as a baton, such as a taser, other non-lethal methods to make sure that I'm subduing the person, this is what's being done in other communities and its' not being done in the communities of color. I saw this as a police officer, I talked about it as a police officer, and continue to talk about it as an elected official.

COSTELLO: And I just got word that Mayor de Blasio is going to hold a press conference later this afternoon, and he's going to talk about the retraining of the police force in New York City. That's a good thing, right?

WATKINS: Absolutely. I think it's a great thing. Because you know, one of the things I've heard from a lot of cops I've spoken to about this, is that many of them are just following orders. Many of them are just following their training. And the good cops out here, I think they want to solve the problem as much as anybody else, because I don't think they enjoy going into communities where people are already afraid of them, people already hate them. They want to weed some of this out as well. And so I think that retraining police in terms of how they view all suspects is critically important. Even if you talk about New York, which I think does a better job than Ferguson in dealing with this kind of thing, you have to remember that there are tens of thousands of young black men in Rikers Island right now in New York who were arrested for very petty crimes. They're spending years in prison for things that college students on campuses across America do every single weekend, maybe carrying $5.00 worth of marijuana in their pocket.

We have to realize that it's really the profiling and how you engage with a young black male that really makes all the difference here. I guarantee you that if Eric Garner were a wealthy white guy on Wall Street, there's a very good chance he would not have been dealt with in the same way.

COSTELLO: Paul, I want to get your perspective. You come at it from being a former prosecutor, you come at it from a different angle. What do you think about this?

CALLAN: I was a prosecutor in the same place that Eric Adams was a police officer, in Brooklyn. I'm very much familiar with what happens on the street, and I rode homicide cases in all the tough neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

And my perspective is we've got to work on this. We have to train the police to be more sensitive in their relationship with African- Americans. And I absolutely agree with this. I do not think this would have happened on Park Avenue. It happened where it happened because those cops for whatever reason felt threatened in some way by this big man, and probably encountering a white 400-pound person on Park Avenue, the threat level would have been less.

I'll tell you something else, he was left to die on the street, and I think to me you could argue about whether taking him down on the ground was legitimate or not under the circumstances. They had the right to arrest him. But when the man said he couldn't breathe, repeatedly, not to get an ambulance to save his life immediately is an utter and complete disgrace.

COSTELLO: No one administered CPR either, right?

CALLAN: The grand jury didn't think it was criminal. OK? But we have civil remedies for the family that will deal with this, eventually. They'll have a big lawsuit against the city of New York for this. Because this wasn't handled correctly. Even if you say the criminal part was.

COSTELLO: I have to leave this here. I want to continue the conversation because it's great. But I have to get in a break. We'll be back with much more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I want everybody to know here as well as everybody who may be viewing my remarks here today, we are not going to let up until we see a strengthening of the trust and a strengthening of the accountability that exists between our communities and our law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Of course that was President Obama pushing for trust between the police and the communities they protect. Many will argue New York City is about to take a big step in that direction. Starting tomorrow, the New York City Police Department will launch a pilot program, putting cameras on its officers to record their encounters in public. Later today New York Mayor Bill de Blasio will hold a news conference about police retraining. So let's talk about these body cameras, and if they'll really help. Let's bring back our panel, Brooklyn Borough President and former NYPD Captain Eric Adams, also founder of yourblackworld.com, Boyce Watkins, and CNN legal analyst Paul Callan. Welcome back to all of you.

Let's talk about this body cam thing, Eric. We saw the video of Eric Garner and what happened. Yet the grand jury did not indict Garner. Would a body camera have helped?

ADAMS: It may not help in this case, but it's a powerful tool. I pushed for it as a police officer and a state senator, as well as the technology that allows you to place cameras on guns.

What the footage does is three things. One, it exonerates when the police officer didn't do anything wrong. Two, it allows the criminal justice system to look at real-time data, and, three, it allows for training. You can look at these videos, screen them throughout the police department. What did we do wrong in this case? I know some people may be disenchanted and saying you had a video here. Don't allow this to get in the way of real technology being infused in the police agencies.

COSTELLO: Boyce, it's really hard to not let that get in the way.

WATKINS: It's interesting. I remember seeing a study in psychology, where they showed that with children, when they know they're being watched, they tend to not steal as much, not engage in sneaky behavior as much when they know they're being watched. I think that applies to all human beings.

I think that officers, there's real evidence to show that if officers know that somebody is watching the interaction, they're more likely to do things by the book and to follow the law. I'm in big support of these cameras. I think if you look at the Eric Garner case, for example, understand this is not the first time that someone has been unjustly killed by the police. This is the first time, though, that the whole nation got a chance to watch the entire interaction from the time he said I'm tired of you constantly harassing me, to the point where he said I can't breathe. So that's what led to people being so reactive to this case. If this were just something we were reading about or hearing about with secondhand accounts, I don't think the effect would have been as great. So Eric Garner may have lost his life. But I think a lot of people will benefit from this tragedy.

COSTELLO: I must say Garner's family doesn't quite believe that. We just got new fresh sound, as we call it in the TV news business, from Eric Garner's mother about body cameras. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARR: They had a video that represents a body camera. It did nothing. Try something else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So Paul, I'll throw that to you. So you know, pictures sometimes don't tell the whole story. So what can we trust as citizens when we see these things?

CALLAN: It's a good point. The problem with the pictures is the angle that the picture is taken. Now, I watched Commissioner Bratton yesterday discussing this very issue. If you had multiple cameras filming what went down here, maybe you would have a different result.

Remember, the officer that allegedly applied the choke hold said it wasn't a choke hold. I was putting him in a headlock to try to force him to the ground. We only had one angle to show of that, taken by a bystander. If all of the police officers in the encounter were wearing body cameras, maybe an angle would have been better and you could have defined for certain whether it was a choke hold or not, and maybe it would have changed the outcome.

COSTELLO: I can really understand that, because I want you to take a look at this video that was taken of this 12-year-old boy with a toy gun in Cleveland. Right? We had video of this little boy walking around, he was pointing this bb gun at bypassers. A man in the gazebo thought the kid had a real gun. The police responded to the scene, and they shot and killed this little boy.