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NYPD Ramps Up Probe; Grand Jury Information; New York Mayor Remarks to Press
Aired December 04, 2014 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we'll take it from here. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
Both New York's mayor, Bill de Blasio, and attorney general of the United States, Eric Holder, speaking at any moment now on the frustration, the anger, these tense times really sweeping the nation right now, police violence against minorities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: This is a video from social media. It shows one of the many demonstrations nationwide just within the last 24 hours after that Staten Island grand jury did not indict the police officer accused in the July death of Eric Garner.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
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BALDWIN: Eleven times you hear Eric Garner saying, "I can't breathe," as these officers surrounded him, restrained him for allegedly selling loose cigarettes, which was illegal. The 43-year-old father of six died en route to the hospital according to police and now that police officer, Daniel Pantaleo, the one who grabbed Garner by the neck, will not be charged, but will he be fired? New York Police say they plan to escalate that internal investigation, which had been on hold awaiting the grand jury's decision.
As we mentioned a moment ago, we're watching and waiting for the mayor of New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio, to speak. So as we wait, let's go to our correspondent Deborah Feyerick. She is standing by in Queens, New York, for us with a little bit more.
Deborah, what do we expect to hear from the mayor?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we expect to hear from the mayor and the police commissioner is that the NYPD, all 22,000 officers, will be retrained, announce (INAUDIBLE) to a refresher course. Three days, 300 officers at a time over the course of a year. And they're really going to be focusing on three key areas, theory of policing, techniques of policing, as well as tactical skills.
You talk about theory. That's respect. It's influence versus control. You talk about techniques. That's communication. How do you resolve a conflict using words and not actions. Also, legal issues, for example. Somebody curses at a police officer, somebody tries to bait a police officer, it is not considered disorderly conduct. And so that -- those are the kind of things that the police officers are going to be brought into the police academy here in Queens to sort of get a retraining of.
Also, tactical skills. There's the issue of use of force. How much force do you need? What's the difference between control holds, takedowns, when do you do that sort of thing. And also, the final thing, after care of a subject. Many people we spoke to said, had Eric Garner been given the kind of care he was asking for, because there was an emergency medical technician on scene. Had he been given that care, had he sat up as opposed to lay on the ground, had he been cuffed in front as opposed to in back, he may have been able to breathe and it wouldn't have been this issue of positional asphyxiation is what it's called. So all of those things, all the police officers are going to be retrained because the police commissioner, the mayor, they don't want to see a repeat of this and they want to make sure that the police have the tools, are - have the training to make sure that going forward this doesn't happen again. It's not really a retraining. They're not changing anything. You can see the boards behind me, those lists, everything that's out there. But what it is refreshing police officers so that it doesn't happen, Brooke.
BALDWIN: OK. Deborah Feyerick, we're going to stay in close contact with you, awaiting both the mayor and the police commissioner. So we'll keep an eye on that.
But let me just bring in our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, who's joining me now.
And, Jeffrey Toobin, you have some news.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. As many people know, the district attorney in Staten Island filed a motion with the court asking for some limited disclosure of what went on in the grand jury.
BALDWIN: Yes.
TOOBIN: Well, there was just a decision moments ago and I'm going to just read what came out.
BALDWIN: OK.
TOOBIN: It is very limited, but it is some information about what went on in the grand jury. BALDWIN: OK.
TOOBIN: The grand jury sat for a period of nine weeks. The grand jury heard from 50 witnesses, 22 of the witnesses were civilians. The remaining witnesses, 28 witnesses, were police officers, EMT and doctors. Sixty exhibits were entered into evidence, including four videos. That's all the disclosure that was made, but it is something.
What that tells you though is that we are not going to get the grand jury transcripts. We are not going to learn what exhibits they saw. We know the videos that have been made public, but obviously there were four videos, which is more than have been made public. So that, it appears, all we are going to learn about the grand jury process.
BALDWIN: Which, by the way, listening to you and others saying, that's not surprising.
TOOBIN: Right.
BALDWIN: I mean it was almost like what we saw in Ferguson was this anomaly with all of this information and evidence and testimony put out there for everyone to read.
TOOBIN: Missouri is very unusual -
BALDWIN: Right.
TOOBIN: In that there is a procedure in place where you can really open up grand jury proceedings. In most states, in the federal government, grand jury proceedings are secret and really there's almost no way of getting to that information. New York is somewhat of a hybrid. You can get a little bit of information. And here we have, I think it's safe to say, a little bit of information, but it's something.
BALDWIN: I think it's worth just educating America on Staten Island a little bit, right? Because we were talking about this before the show because one would love to know the precise racial background, socioeconomics of each of these 23 grand jurors that sat for all these many months discussing this potential indictment and Staten Island is sort of this borough unto its own here in New York, correct?
TOOBIN: It is -- it's very different from the other four boroughs. Staten Island is much smaller. I believe the population is around 300,000. There are 8 million people roughly in New York City. It is by far the smallest, the whitest, the most politically conservative of the boroughs and the home of many police officers. Important to this story is the fact that the district attorney there, Daniel Donovan, is an elected official. So he answers to that constituency.
BALDWIN: Absolutely.
TOOBIN: And, you know, I don't want to create a conspiracy here that he buried this case because he wants to ingratiate himself with a conservative electorate, but it is certainly a factor to be considered when you think about how this case resolved itself. BALDWIN: We're waiting to hear from Mayor de Blasio, we're waiting to hear from Commissioner Bratton. But, you know, I'm sitting here and we have discussed multiple high profile cases, you know, that have involved young African-American men being killed, whether by someone who wanted to be a police officer or law enforcement. And in each of the cases that are -- off the top of my head, you then also have this extra layer of federal investigation.
TOOBIN: Right.
BALDWIN: We've been hearing, you know, from Eric Holder, who's sort of on this listening tour, trying to get communities and police together to figure out solutions. We've heard from the president. But has this been fairly typical for the federal government to step in, in cases like this, to investigate potential civil rights violations?
TOOBIN: Well, I think you can say it has been typical for the federal government to conduct investigations.
BALDWIN: OK.
TOOBIN: It is not typical that these investigations wind up with actual prosecutions. It's not zero. It's -- there are some very famous cases that have wound up -- probably the most famous of all was the beating of Rodney King in Los Angeles, the officers, people may remember, the trial was the state trial was moved from downtown Los Angeles to Simi Valley, which is a very white part of the Los Angeles metropolitan area. The jury acquitted him - acquitted the police officers. They were then charged again in federal court and ultimately convicted. At least some of them were.
I think it's -- when you think about the federal possibility in these recent cases --
BALDWIN: Especially this most recent one here in New York.
TOOBIN: Right. It's -- there's a real distinction, I think, between what went on in Ferguson and what went on in Staten Island. The Ferguson case, you had, in essence, a life or death struggle between Officer Wilson and Michael Brown that went on in the car, the gun went off twice and it was followed up by the later shooting. I think it's going to be very hard for the federal government to make a federal case out of that because a federal case requires some sort of racial motivation on the part of the defendants. You know, some part -- it doesn't have to be explicit, but the federal government can't bring a case unless they show that there was some sort of racial motivation involved.
BALDWIN: OK.
TOOBIN: There is a better chance, I think, of a federal case coming out of what went on in Staten Island than there was in Ferguson.
BALDWIN: OK.
Do me a favor and stay with me. We're going to get a quick commercial break in. Please, don't go anywhere, Mr. Toobin.
TOOBIN: It's not a favor. I work here.
BALDWIN: I appreciate that. So Jeff Toobin's going to stay with me. Again, we're watching and waiting to hear both from the mayor and the police commissioner here in New York, speaking in Queens, specifically about, you know, police retraining, what solutions, what can happen in the wake of this non-indictment that has just sent ripples not just here in New York but really nationwide. Stay with me. You're watching CNN.
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BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
And, guys, let's go ahead and throw up the live picture there in Queens as we're watching and waiting to hear from both the mayor of New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio, and also the New York police commissioner, Bill Bratton, hearing specifically in the wake of the non-indictment out of that Staten Island grand jury as it related to the death of Eric Garner last July. And we saw the protests, we saw the marches last night in the city. We're waiting for news from the mayor as far as what can be changed, what can be helped relationships between communities and police departments, training, et cetera.
So as we wait for that, let me bring in my guest, Jeff Toobin is still with me, our senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, and Eugene O'Donnell was with New York police, trained police, currently a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
So welcome to you.
: Thanks.
BALDWIN: And, Jeff has news. Let's just -- in case you're just joining us here, because we're not, thus far, have no information on the grand jury makeup in Staten Island. You have some limited information.
TOOBIN: Right. As people may remember, the district attorney of Staten Island filed a motion with the court for disclosure of some material about the grand jury. The trial court just issued its decision at 2:00 Eastern, just a few minutes ago, and this is the information that's been disclosed.
BALDWIN: OK.
TOOBIN: The grand jury sat for a period of nine weeks. They heard from 50 witnesses. Twenty-two of the witnesses were civilians. The remaining 28 were police officers, emergency medical personnel and doctors. Sixty exhibits were submitted into evidence and that included four videos. And there were also records relating to NYPD policies and procedures, medical records pertaining to the treatment of the deceased, Eric Garner, photographs of the scene, autopsy photographers and records relating to NYPD training.
That's not nothing - BALDWIN: That's it.
TOOBIN: But it's not -
BALDWIN: Right.
TOOBIN: It's certainly not the -
BALDWIN: A full picture.
TOOBIN: The full picture of what the grand jury (INAUDIBLE).
BALDWIN: OK. As we have those bits and pieces of information, Eugene, here's my question to you, just with your police officer cap on as we await for news from the mayor. You know, talking to our correspondent there, anticipating some sort of news on discussing tactical, technical training with police, communication, respect within the communities. What will that mean? What will that lead to?
EUGENE O'DONNELL, PROFESSOR, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, the sure thing here is that police incompetence is front and center. And the reason for that, I think, is the NYPD properly tells the cops, try not to get into physical confrontations And most of the time that works.
BALDWIN: Yes.
O'DONNELL: They're able to steer away from physical confrontations. The problem they have had, and the commissioner acknowledged it and this what they're working on, is what do you do when you have to be in a physical confrontation and generally any cop will tell you a lot of improvisation. So they're trying to get to the point where they give them a little bit more I guess certainty and a little more sense of - that they know what they're doing when they get into these situations.
But the truth is, this is a bungled job. It's a botched job because the police are not terribly good at physical confrontations, which in a way is a good thing. One of the risks that you run if you get the department completely into physical training and this also goes for firearms, is you change the whole (INAUDIBLE), the whole culture and then maybe officers will be looking for confrontations. We don't want that either.
BALDWIN: You know, it's frustrating because, as we cover this story and try to talk to - there's - I mean I can't talk to current officers. They're not allowed to talk.
O'DONNELL: Sure.
BALDWIN: But I'm wondering if you're talking to current, you know, NYPD or any - I mean, listen, this isn't just New York. It's across the country. How do they feel about this bungled job, how they really are front and center and how this is a mess?
O'DONNELL: Cops are horrified by this. I don't think any cop wants to see somebody die for pennies of cigarette tax revenue. But also I think they're empathetic because they understand that they are on their own out there. This is not to talk about what the grand jury did, but officers very much -- the reality is, they don't know how these things end. And that - and when you're looking at a video, it's a little unfair because you're viewing something after the fact. And for every ending, and fortunately these are very rare bad endings, there are bad endings for police also whether they're injured or seriously killed. You have to remember, they bring deadly force into this confrontations. That changes the nature automatically in these confrontations. They can't get into lengthy, prolonged wrestling matches with people. They have to try to end these things as quickly as they can.
BALDWIN: Let me talk about chokeholds. And let me just read for us -- this is what we have guidance from New York City Police Department. So, members of the New York City Police Department will not use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or wind pipe which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air." Seems to me, just a layperson, pretty cut and dry, no ambiguity.
O'DONNELL: Well, it's a laudable thing and what we're seeing is it may not be that easy to have this. That's the standard. It's good to try to do it. But what we're seeing in New York City, where they're trying to discipline officers for doing this, is it hasn't been very workable. So they're going to have to review this, try to continue to have that as the rule. The officer, of course, in this case, maintains this was not a chokehold. A chokehold is a term of art. The officer said apparently in the grand jury, I did an in artful (ph) takedown that I was taught in the academy, sort of a wrestling move.
BALDWIN: Right.
O'DONNELL: A chokehold is more on the order of - although it would meet the requirement there. But I think most police - I don't want to speak for most police, but I think most police would not see this as a chokehold, they would see it as an attempt to get him into custody.
TOOBIN: Brooke, can I jump in and ask a question here.
BALDWIN: Please. Please.
TOOBIN: One thing I have heard over the course of this discussion from police and others is this distinction between blocking the carotid artery and blocking the windpipe. Now, putting aside the issue of any fast breaking scene you can draw that distinction -
BALDWIN: How are you -- how can you even think about that in the heat of the moment?
TOOBIN: How can you - right, exactly. But what's the difference?
O'DONNELL: Well, it turns out, this is a tremendously complicated area.
TOOBIN: Yes. O'DONNELL: It turns out that vascular restraint is an area onto itself. I honestly don't think, in my city, in the New York City Police Department, most of the cops, there might be some martial artists and people like that. Most of the cops are your neighbors. They don't really have a lot of insight into this.
BALDWIN: That's a great question.
O'DONNELL: And, yes, and the idea that they have - they have the presence of mind to even know what this is -
BALDWIN: The wherewithal, right.
O'DONNELL: And the distinction, I don't think they have it. That said, really -- it's important because you can definitely cause injury, but the department is going to have to look, continue to try to do this, but also acknowledge there may be situations where this is not a realistic rule.
BALDWIN: On that notion, let's say they're going to look into this and let's say we're going to see the mayor. We can sort of predict some of what we think we'll hear as far as retraining and working with communities.
O'DONNELL: Sure.
BALDWIN: But, at the end of the day, when you are a police officer trying to do your job and you are in the heat of the moment, how are you going to think, OK, this is what I was taught, this is the part of the body I'm not supposed to press. I mean I can't imagine --
O'DONNELL: Through good policy and good training. The NYPD is an outstanding organization on firearms discipline because it's at the center of their culture. And 45 shootings in a year with 35,000 people, almost always with an armed adversary, and they reign it in. The legal standard is a minimal standard. They go far and above that and it's been very successful. So they need to create standards. This is an attempt to do that. They're going to have to relook at this, but they're going to have to try to extend their firearms discipline to all uses of force and create more competent police people and continue to encourage the cops not to go physical if they possibly can do that.
BALDWIN: You know, just also talking to so many different people, watching and listening to the people who were protesting peacefully last night, a lot of these young people are saying, especially those who are African-American, you know, I feel like police look at me and immediately jump to conclusions that I'm up to no good. The police immediately think, guilty until proven innocent. And that you -- I can't climb into an officer's heart or mind to know how he or she is feeling. But how can we begin to switch that off in some members of law enforcement?
O'DONNELL: Well, it's a majority/minority department in this city, so it's very representative of the city. But there is no magic answer. But I think the minority and majority people in the city, the one issue that is absolutely clear that could be changed, that has to be changed is sort of an attitude issue, which I think is at the root of this, and you hear it all the time. You hear the people say, I asked the cops for routine stuff, I asked them for directions, and I feel iced cold - iced out.
BALDWIN: Yes.
O'DONNELL: I feel like people are being rude.
BALDWIN: Yes.
O'DONNELL: And so we need to - what we need to do in the NYPD is find the cops that are able to nonviolently resolve things just about all the time, the cops that enjoy the job, the cops that are there to serve people and emulate them. We need to take their best approaches and have them migrate into the larger organization. And also with deadly force, we need to look at other countries. There's other police agencies that have managed to resolve things nonviolently. There are civilians in America who don't have weapons that are under threat every day. They manage to do things nonviolently. So give the cops the maximum protection, but get them as far away from the legal minimum which is, I had to use force, trying to find creative ways that they'll never have to use force. There may come a time where they've to do it and they've done it here with deadly force. They've done it, 35,000 cops, 5 million calls a year, an extraordinary number of interactions, 45 shootings. Investigate it thoroughly and rarely do you have a controversial shooting.
TOOBIN: Well, but we just had one.
O'DONNELL: We did. We absolutely had one. Yes. Absolutely.
TOOBIN: I mean, you know, again, just for folks who obviously don't follow this very carefully, a young man in Brooklyn, unarmed, in a housing project, coming down a stairs where the lights were defective -
O'DONNELL: Right.
TOOBIN: And a cop shot this poor guy and killed him just a couple weeks ago. So it is -
O'DONNELL: So there -
TOOBIN: I think your point is a very good one.
O'DONNELL: There's a policy question. Apparently, in public housing, the cops, some of them, were on patrol with guns out. How the agency was not on top of this, how the agency didn't reign this in and create some structured digression, I don't know how they didn't do that. It's going to be done now.
BALDWIN: Is that a leadership issue? Is it the sergeants who are looking out for these guys who know that this is how they're sort of rolling around in housing projects and need to say stop?
O'DONNELL: Well, this commissioner is as good as it gets for street policing.
BALDWIN: Yes.
O'DONNELL: He gets this whole idea, which sometimes it's bureaucratic - all the time get spent on policing in a bureaucracy. He's trying to re-orientate the job toward the street policing issue. So I'm sure they're going to review there. There may be times where cops, for good cause shown, have to have weapons out. But on the ordinary basis, they shouldn't be walking around any place with weapons out. It's dangerous to them, sends a terrible message to the residents.
BALDWIN: Again, we're watching and waiting, if you're just joining us, we're waiting for the mayor of New York. We are waiting for the police commissioner of the New York Police Department to speak specifically about perhaps retraining tactical, technical, community relations issue in wake of the non-indictment the grand jury decided. That was made public right around this time yesterday, the grand jury out of Staten Island, as it related to the death of Eric Garner there in New York.
As we watch and wait for that, here's something else. Oh, let's go ahead and listen.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK: Good afternoon, everyone.
The decision by the grand jury yesterday obviously has focused so much attention in this city, so much attention in this nation on the relationship between police and community. And fundamental questions are being asked, and rightfully so, about how we respect people's rights, how we reduce the use of force and the relationship between police and community and each encounter between police and community, how we get it right and how we move forward together.
This tragedy is raising a lot of tough questions. There is tremendous resolve here in this city to answer those questions, to get it right, to move forward. There's tremendous resolve here at the NYPD to find a way to draw closer to the community, to do things in a different way, to do things in a new way.
This academy, this extraordinary facility, is, to me, a symbol of the future of this police force and the positive future of its relationship with the community. Here in the training we just saw, the seeds are being planted for a very different reality. And as a new group of leaders here who have a vision for creating a partnership, for creating a reality that instills trust in the dynamics between police and community. We need to build that trust and people here are working on that every single day, and I want to commend them for that.
A lot of people demonstrated last night. They expressed their First Amendment rights. Overwhelmingly, the demonstrations were peaceful. And I want to say the response by the NYPD was exactly the right one. It was smart. It was strategic. It was agile. A lot of restraint was shown. And, when necessary, arrests were made. But you saw a very peaceful night in New York City. Despite the frustration and the pain that so many people are feeling, you saw a peaceful protest. You saw a minimum of disruption. Give credit to everyone involved, but I particularly give credit to the NYPD for having managed the situation so appropriately.
Again, a city of 8.4 million people, emotions tremendously high, there were only 80 arrests last night, the vast majority of those on minor charges. And it's an example of how this city respects people's rights, respects their right to raise their voices, and understands that's part of what makes us a democracy. We are proud of how we respect protests. We think this is the right way to do things.
We will not tolerate, as we said yesterday, we will not tolerate violence or disorder. We think by showing respect for the democratic process is one of the right ways of setting a tone that keeps the protests peaceful. I emphasize that the Garner family has spoken powerfully on the need to keep the peace. Michael Brown's family has spoken powerfully on this point. The message from the people who are hurting the most is that violence will do no good, it will only setback the cause of reform. I think a lot of people last night heard that message loud and clear and comported themselves appropriately. But I do ask everyone, all New Yorkers, all of our visitors in this town, to respect the memory of Eric Garner and respect the memory of Michael Brown, to respect their families by expressing yourself only in peaceful means.
You're going to hear in a few minutes from Commissioner Bratton and several other key members of his team. I'd like to acknowledge some others and thank them for their extraordinary efforts, particularly in the last 24 hours. I want to thank our chief of department, Jimmy O'Neill (ph), who I think did a fantastic job managing the situation last night. I'd like to thank our deputy commission, John Miller, assistant chief, Theresa Shortell (ph), who's also the commanding officer of the academy, Richard Dee (ph), deputy inspector and executive officer for the academy. And, again, you'll hear from Commissioner Bratton, the First Deputy Commissioner Tucker (ph) and Deputy Commissioner Julian (ph) in just a few minutes.
So a lot of people, as I said yesterday, felt a lot of pain, a lot of frustration. My message to the people is, take that pain and frustration and work for change. The relationship between police and community has to change. The way we go about policing has to change. It has to change in the city, it has to change in this country. I am fundamentally convinced it will change.
People who feel aggrieved are asking for something simple. They're asking for the notion of a society in which everyone is treated equally. It's a fundamental American value. People want to believe in their core that they will be treated like their neighbor or like someone in a totally different neighborhood. Regardless of the color of their skin or what religion they are or what they look like, they will be treated the same. That is what people deeply desire. They want to know that they'll be safe. They want to know if they ever have an encounter with the police, that they will be respected in that encounter.
