Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

New York Protests

Aired December 04, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: A Staten Island grand jury did not indict that police officer accused in the death of the 43-year-old father of six. Garner repeatedly told police officers he couldn't breathe as they restrained him for allegedly selling illegal cigarettes. He died as he was headed to the hospital, according to law enforcement.

Let me go straight to Joe Johns. He's live in Times Square, one of the locations of a lot of those protesters last night.

But you have some of news that Jeff Toobin shared with us, Joe, as far as some pieces of new detail with regard to the Staten Island grand jury.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Frankly, it's not much, I got to tell you, Brooke.

But, yes, Judge Stephen Rooney, in his ruling, and a very quick ruling after the district attorney asked for disclosure of some of the information, puts out this order that essentially details generally the types of information the grand jury was given.

And let me just run through it for you. Nine weeks of testimony and the jury sitting there for nine weeks listening to this stuff, 50 witnesses; 22 of those were non-police officers or civilians, as law enforcement likes to call them. Just over half of those people were police officers or EMTs or doctors. Apparently, this grand jury also heard or saw 60 exhibits, including four videos, all of this entered into evidence.

And that's it. They're not going to release the videos, apparently. They're not going to release any of this evidence, but they're just telling you generally what the grand jury actually got to see and hear before they made that decision. Not very much at all, Brooke, certainly a lot less than we saw in the Ferguson, Missouri, situation, but grand jury secrecy around this country is the rule and frankly it's not surprising the way this judge went about this.

BALDWIN: That's exactly right. Everything we saw out of that Ferguson grand jury really an anomaly when you talk to so many of these lawyers.

Let me ask you because I'm thinking of all the pictures we saw last night, really for the most part, all the peaceful protesters in New York. There are protests. There are gatherings scheduled for this evening. What should we expect in the coming hours? JOHNS: In all likelihood, about the same. There is a protest

scheduled at Foley Square. That's basically where the judiciary is here in Manhattan. That's scheduled for 5:30 Eastern time and there's also a big protest now scheduled in Washington, D.C., for about two weeks from now.

We heard a little bit about that from Al Sharpton in a news conference and some other civil rights leaders as they try to figure out how they're going to handle this issue that seems to be reaching critical mass in the United States about law enforcement use of force and how it affects minorities -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right. Joe Johns, thank you so much in New York.

Let me just broaden out -- let's have a bigger conversation about this with Morehouse College Professor Bryant Marks. He's also the director of the Morehouse Male Initiative. And Tara Setmayer, she is a contributor for "Real News" on The Blaze.

Just welcome to both of you. Thank you so much for being with me.

BRYANT MARKS, PROFESSOR, MOREHOUSE COLLEGE: Thank you for having me.

TARA SETMAYER, THEBLAZE.COM: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Tara, let me just begin with you. When you see the pictures and people of all races and backgrounds at these protests and these marches saying the system, the nation's law enforcement system not just here in New York or Ferguson is flawed, a mix of people, what do you make of that?

SETMAYER: Well, I think it's reflective of what people see and hear and the way the media presents these things as well.

You know, and I think that there is -- a lot of these cases that people are outraged about are outliers and of course you will be outraged when you only know part of the facts of what's going on.

And oftentimes, when there are injustices going on, then, yes, absolutely people should rise up and speak out against them in a peaceful way and do what it takes to possibly change them. But I think we need to be very careful that we don't demagogue these issue and get people ginned over memes that just aren't true, like there's an epidemic of white cops killing black kids or that black men are the target and being mowed down.

That kind of incendiary language, A, the statistics don't back it up, and, B, it's not helpful if we're going to heal and move forward and find real rational solutions where there are problems. I think that that's -- we need to be measured in our response here with these things.

BALDWIN: Professor, I would just love to hear -- you teach at a pretty incredible college, a prominent all-black, all-male college in Atlanta. What kinds of conversations are you having with your students about these specific cases and just the issue of justice in this country?

MARKS: Well, essentially, many of the students feel that it could be them. And many of them have their own stories to tell.

You can pick any 10 African-American males and I would venture to say at least seven or eight out of them would have a story to tell around police harassment or just feeling not really served and protected by the police.

They have been telling their personal stories. But they have also been very active. Many of them have been engaged in peaceful protests. Many of them actually want to get the data and conduct appropriate research to figure out exactly what's going on. But it's very personal.

I'm from Queens, New York, myself. I grew up in a situation where we basically feared the police, unfortunately. And I agree that it's not an epidemic, as Tara mentioned, but it happens enough where you need to be on guard. But this is just a symptom of a larger sort of issue.

Although we look at this one case, when you look at black life, if I'm an African-American and I apply for a home loan or an auto loan and I'm quoted higher rates, or if I'm not treated appropriately at a health facility, or if there's mistreatment in the education system, teachers have lower expectations, these are systematic issues that are occurring regarding black life.

This one example is just sort of a grain of sand on the beach of this sort of larger societal issue around race relations.

BALDWIN: I had read that you said you grew up in Queens and you knew if you saw a police officer, it wasn't a good thing, and then even to this day as an adult teaching at Morehouse, you still sort of have heart palpitations -- this is what I read you said -- when a police officer pulls up in a car next to you.

These are the stories I have been hearing in the wake of what we have seen in Ferguson, in the wake of what we have seen here in New York. And for both of you, I just want to play this clip. I had a fascinating conversation with a "Wall Street Journal" reporter, Gary Fields, earlier this week. This is what he shared with me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY FIELDS, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": I, growing up in the '70s and also the '60s, kind of had a different indoctrination. We were just pretty much raised and told constantly how to behave because we were coming from an era when we knew that authorities could actually take your life if necessary and the cause would be taken care of, we would find reasoning and justification for it.

So I kind of grew up understanding that the rights that everybody else has, maybe you don't actually get to say the same things, you don't get to talk back if an officer stops you and you say, why are you stopping me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And he went on to tell me the story of a white friend of his who was pulled over by a police officer and the person was sort of frustrated with the police officer for shining a flashlight in his car because they didn't want to wake up his newborn.

He was sort of laughing with me that I never in a million years would have done that. It just brings us to this conversation today really looking seriously at potentially two separate -- this is to both of you -- systems of justice for whites or blacks or would it be for different socioeconomic groups? Tara, to you first.

SETMAYER: I think socioeconomics have a lot to do with this also. Are there injustices? Are there things about our justice system that are unfair? Absolutely.

We don't live in a perfect world. But I think what's important is that we parse where those problems are and look at them separately. It's kind of the approach of how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. I think it's important to do it that way because, if we don't, you start to mix in different issues that have different solutions or different root causes and it becomes one big mess and an explosive mess, which is what we have been seeing in some of the rhetoric, demagoguery of the issue that's going on now.

It's not all racial. Is there some racial elements of it? Absolutely. But that's not the only reason. There's also -- there are plenty of black Americans in this country who have been able to make it despite this if we want to say white privilege, despite that.

They have made it. Why? What did they do that was different? We need to find where the common ground is and where solutions are and we need to look at what we're teaching our kids and what the attitudes are, but it's a two-way street. I think there are both sides that can learn from it.

BALDWIN: Bryant, you have done pretty well for yourself. How would you respond to that?

MARKS: I'll basically say, yes, there are many African-Americans who have done well in spite of racism and white privilege, for a variety of reasons, many of which just comes down to having caring adults around them who invest in them. And a big piece of that is a quality education system in their local neighborhoods.

SETMAYER: Yes. I agree with that.

MARKS: Education is a key factor, right? I'm a professor. I'm a bit biased.

But folks who are educated, they have healthier lives mentally and physically and they are less likely to commit crime and less likely to take and do drugs and become addicted to drugs and all sorts of other negative outcomes.

If you're African-American and you're living in a challenging or urban environment, where the local schools are failing, underfunded and not really invested in, then it's not a mystery why you get some of these outcomes.

(CROSSTALK)

SETMAYER: I'm sorry.

Frederick Douglass said education is the key to freedom. You're absolutely right. And New York City is the perfect example of where you had the success of charter schools and Success Academy, but then you have people fighting back, saying that -- Mayor de Blasio, one of the first things he wanted to do was shut those things down.

Those are conversations I think that are way more important because you're absolutely right. It starts with at home. It starts with an education system. And when you are educated, you do make different choices and that's the key to freedom.

(CROSSTALK)

MARKS: But let me just clarify something real quick, though.

BALDWIN: Go ahead.

MARKS: There's still many elements of racism in the education system. Research has shown that teachers have lower expectations of black students than white students, and that's pretty consistent, and that those expectations feed into a self-fulfilling prophecy, such that many black children aren't able to reach their full potential.

We need to also reform the mind-sets of the adults in the education ecosystem, such that black kids can reach their full potential.

(CROSSTALK)

SETMAYER: ... low expectations.

BALDWIN: Bryant Marks and Tara Setmayer, thank you both very much. I appreciate it. Come back.

SETMAYER: Thank you.

MARKS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Just ahead, will these police officers -- we keep hearing this notion of wanting to hear this accountability.

Will they be held accountable in any way? We're going to talk a little bit more about that.

Plus, you will hear from Spike Lee, a native New Yorker, who is livid about the grand jury's decision. He even went out on the streets last night to join those protests.

And inside Eric Garner's autopsy. Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, takes us through exactly how he died and what role his weight played.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Many of us have seen the graphic video of Eric Garner being taken to the ground by New York City police. But I want to take a moment to show you part of the video that perhaps you haven't seen. Much of us haven't seen it on television.

This was recorded after Eric Garner was already on the ground after he told police 11 times, "I can't breathe." This portion shows what happened before the ambulance arrived, but again when we play this, I have to warn you, it's difficult to watch. These are among a man's final moments of life, but we think it's an important part of the story to show you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up! Back up! Back up!

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now they're trying to get him an ambulance after they harassed him, slammed him down, NYPD. You understand? This is going viral right here.

It's going viral right here, NYPD harassing people for no reason. He didn't do anything at all. Now they want to step back. They want to try to get him an ambulance after they beat him up, brought him to the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, you heard the voice of the person sort of narrating as they were shooting that cell phone video of Mr. Garner there on the ground as more and more New York City police officers were joining.

But I want to talk about those moments there that we were watching.

Joining me now, Bernard Parks. He climbed up through the Los Angeles police ranks to become chief of his department. His tenure saw a significant crime drop. But it also saw police corruption and a brutality scandal involving the CRASH anti-gang unit of Rampart Division. He's now a member of the L.A. City Council.

Welcome to you, sir.

And Linda Kenney Baden is a criminal defense attorney who has also represented families in racially charged cases involving excessive force by police, including the family of Stanton Crew, an unarmed man who was involved in a police chase in New Jersey and was killed when police fired 27 bullets at him. The video is tough to watch. It's uncomfortable, what we just saw a moment ago. So, welcome to both of you.

And, Linda, let me turn to you and ask you, when you see those moments -- and I know for a lot of people the seconds seem like an eternity before the ambulance arrives. But is that standard procedure?

LINDA KENNEY BADEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is if they delayed calling the ambulance. That would be an interesting question. How long until they called the ambulance?

The police will not usually render that aid. They will wait for medical personnel to come in to make sure scene is secured and to make sure they have somebody medically that is in need. But the question is going to be, when did they recognize that he was medically in need?

But let me tell you, Brooke, for every moment that you're sitting there waiting, I can see a lawyer in a civil suit saying it doesn't matter whether there was a violation of law, it doesn't matter whether it wasn't a violation of procedure. You're watching a man die before your eyes and perhaps help could have saved him.

And that will mean the family will either collect money or try to get a court to implement certain changes because of it.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Bernard, from a legal perspective and also just through your law enforcement eyes, what did you see there?

BERNARD PARKS, FORMER LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: Well, I see that there was a great deal of confusion.

But I think if you go back in the tape when it first started, I think that that situation could pretty well have been predicted. You have officers, it didn't appear that they were ready to address the noncompliance. I think you also saw the dress of the officers, which I would be suspect as whether they were really officers.

When he stated that I have been arrested eight times, he's not unknown to them. You have a lot of options in how you approach that situation and generally it goes real bad if everyone there is in involved in the altercation.

Someone has got to be in control directing officers what to do and how to do it, so your tactics, your verbal skills, your command presence and your plan should all be in place before you confront this person. You shouldn't be surprised that the person didn't cooperate, because many people don't cooperate.

BADEN: Brooke, can I say something on that?

BALDWIN: Sure.

BADEN: The problem with cooperation is once he's being held, OK, and whether or not -- and there's clearly compression of the neck here because the medical examiner found 10 hemorrhages in the neck. Once he's being held, anyone -- if you're being held and you're losing air, you're going to move and you're going to try to get around and say I can't breathe because I can't breathe. That struggle for life becomes, in the cops' eyes, resisting arrest. And that's the problem. Over a cigarette, that should not have happened.

BALDWIN: Bernard, let me ask you this because you bring up tactics and communication. We just heard from both the commissioner and the mayor here in New York announcing this force-wide retraining effort which will be incredibly expensive.

Talking to a former officer a minute ago, he said this will be welcome for these officers. I'm wondering how effective a retraining is. You have sort of the tangible and training and then you have whatever is inside one officer's heart and mind in terms of preconceived notion walking into certain neighborhoods perhaps and how one would view certain members of society. How would you respond to that?

PARKS: I think what I'm concerned about is that's generally a throwaway statement whenever the police have a tragedy.

BALDWIN: Ah.

PARKS: The issue is, they have not had the ability to use the chokehold for 10 years. What has been the training since then, whether the person the used it has any idea of the impact?

Plus, I think you have to take a step back and decide, what is the level of force that you're going to use over loose cigarettes? What is the outcome you're looking for? What are you trying to achieve? And if you're trying to achieve a situation that is short of killing someone or someone dying in your presence, then you would have different tactics.

You would have a different way to approach the circumstance. And when you use deadly force, you generally would have to have something that's confronting you that's life-threatening to you or someone else. So those are the things I would be concerned with across the board in looking at all the circumstances.

BALDWIN: OK. Bernard Parks and Linda Kenney Baden, thank you both very much.

BADEN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins me live on what Eric Garner's autopsy showed and how exactly did he die and what does Sanjay think those moments Garner told police over and over I can't breathe?

Plus, Hillary Clinton, who has been relatively silent on these issues, just spoke out moments ago specifically on the case here in New York of Eric Garner and she talked about Ferguson. We will play some of that for you. Stand by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: For Eric Garner's family and many other cases, the case for

indicting officer Pantaleo seemed cut and dry.

As we have reported, the medical examiner ruled Garner's death a homicide. The medical examiner's report also listed the 43-year-old's asthma, obesity and high blood pressure as contributing factors. What does all of that mean here?

Let me bring in our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, can you just take me through exactly what this medical examiner said was the cause of Garner's death?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

The medical examiner was pretty clear on this issue, Brooke, specifically to what you said earlier, saying it was this chokehold along with pressure on his chest and the fact that he was in what's known as a prone position, meaning he was on his chest and abdomen on the pavement.

Those three things in combination they say led to his death. And they specifically called this a homicide. That's a word that everyone knows, but it's important to point out that there are many different manners of death that the medical examiner will have to choose from in how to categorize this.

Just take a look at the list, so natural, accidental, suicide, undetermined and then homicide at the bottom. They didn't say this was a natural death. They didn't say this was even undetermined or accidental. I bring that up only to say that they talk about these contributory factors, the asthma, obesity, things like that, but really are also saying that was not relevant to what actually caused the death here.

It was a homicide due to the chokehold and pressure on his chest.

BALDWIN: Not relevant, the asthma, the pulmonary, the cardiac issues.

GUPTA: Right. He was standing up and walking around and doing the thing. The question the medical examiner must answer is what led to his death?

Think of it like this. If the question is if he had not had obesity and not had asthma, would he still be alive today after all he went to? And the answer is, we don't know. We can't know. But the answer also, would he be alive had he not been placed in a chokehold and had that pressure on his chest? And the answer is yes.

That's how you have to interpret this medical examiner's report.

BALDWIN: So then you hear a number of people saying if he had been saying -- we know he said it 11 different times. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. You hear this on the cell phone video. People are saying, well, obviously he could breathe if he was saying I can't breathe. What's your read on that? GUPTA: Brooke, I would say there's sort of a pragmatic answer to that

and a more mechanical answer.

The pragmatic answer is that, you know, people who are in distress are saying that they can't breathe. He may have been able to breathe somewhat, but was obviously having increasing distress. If somebody said I can't breathe by 80 percent, the point is that it's something that people say when they're having difficulty breathing.

But the more mechanical part of it, if you just think of it like this, when you talk, you are pushing air out of your lungs across your vocal chords and making noise and making words. That's how you talk. Air is going from your lungs out.

You can still do that if air is able to get out. But if you have too much pressure on your chest, to get air back into your chest, you have to open up your chest and you have to open up your lungs. And that's hard to do if you have a lot of pressure on your chest. There's both -- that could be the mechanical part of what was happening there. Air could get out, but couldn't get back in, but also it was just a sign that he was in distress.

BALDWIN: Clearly.

Dr. Gupta, thank you.

GUPTA: You got it, Brooke. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, Hillary Clinton, who has been relativity quiet on these issues, she just spoke out moments ago on the Garner case and that nonindictment in Ferguson, Missouri. Hear exactly what Hillary Clinton said coming up.

Plus, hundreds, dare I say thousands really filling the streets of New York. We are going to talk about the difference just when you look at the visuals, these pictures between New York City and Ferguson, Missouri. We will talk to justice reporter and activist Shaun King about this live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)