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At This Hour

Orion is Back on Earth; Obama Nominates Ashton Carter as Defense Secretary; Foreign ISIS Fighters Regretting Their Decision; Protests Continue over Police Killings.

Aired December 05, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: It's really interesting, too, because what we're going to see happen is a recovery mission that looks a lot -- if you were alive back then in the '60s and '70s, you might just remember the way the spacecraft, like the Apollo, the capsules, when they would have these water landings. Why don't we listen in to NASA right now and we can listen and watch this unfold.

(BEGIN AUDIO)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orion is back on Earth. America has driven a golden spike as it crosses a bridge into the future. And we now have confirmation that Orion is stable, upright. Orion splashdown at a mission elapse time of 4:24.

(BEGIN AUDIO)

PEREIRA: A 4:24 flight. Supposed to land -- splashdown west of Baja, California, Alina. We know this was a test flight. They're looking at testing some of the modules and equipment on board. Testing out the heat shield, correct?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, this is really all about testing Orion, seeing what -- how it handles getting out of the earth's atmosphere and returning into the earth's atmosphere. Early on NASA was giving every indication that this has been a successful flight. They were able to test successfully the launch board system, which is a special part of Orion that would basically, at some point, when we get humans on board, would be able to take the astronauts away from the rockets if there's any sort of problem during a launch, after liftoff. They also tested Orion as it was going through Van Allen Belt, which are this area of extreme radiation that typically interferes with computers. Then as you mentioned that heat she would that is so critical. Think about it. When it's coming back into the earth's atmosphere, Orion is facing temperatures of about 4,000 degrees Fahrenheit. So this heat shield is essential in protecting the capsule and the people who could one day be inside. Fahrenheit. But every indication seems to be this has been a success, Michaela.

PEREIRA: It's been important because, again, they're going -- the goal of there flight, its first trip to space in this new Orion capsule, they were going to a peak altitude of about 5,800 kilometers. 15 times higher than the international space station is currently.

You're looking there at a live look. They have helicopters that will be perusing the ocean. The Navy will be involved in this recovery operation. They'll keep an eye out to see where the splashdown occurs. They will then go and grab on to this. It's a recovery mission, essentially, on that water landing. They will find the capsule, they'll tow it, and it will be boarded on to a Navy transport ship. It will head to San Diego and we're told it will take a truck ride, essentially, back to Florida.

But talking about the operation in outer space, this is sort of one of those far-reaching kind of ideas. They're testing it here because the goal is to eventually do this human flight, first crude flight perhaps to orbit the moon but then potentially maybe even hook up with an asteroid which I find so mind-boggling.

MACHADO: When you really talk about the goals of Orion it's hard to wrap your head around these goals, right? I mean, think about landing on an asteroid or redirecting an asteroid to a lunar orbit. Things like that that it's really remarkable to even think that it would be possible but NASA says that is the goal here. The ultimate goal would be to take astronauts someday to mars. Think about that. So, yeah, it's definitely the next era for the space exploration program here at NASA. That's the emphasis here that the reason why this is just so significant is because this test flight, yeah, it was a test flight and, yeah, it was just about four hours of a flight. But it's significant because it's the first step toward that goal of going to an asteroid and going to Mars. And just in case you're wondering, the next step here, they're going to take all the data from this test flight, name tweaks necessary, there's going to be a second unmanned test flight of Orion some time in 2018. That flight, the big difference is going to be it's going to be on an SLS rocket which is a special rocket NASA is developing right now, and then ultimately they could have a crude mission some time in 2021 and they're thinking -- they're aiming for the mid-2030s in terms of a mission for Mars.

PEREIRA: I was just doing my math quickly. I think I'll be too old to go but maybe Alina you might volunteer. That sounds like quite an interesting assignment.

Alina Machado, thank you so much.

Again, Orion set to splash down in the Pacific about 600 miles off the coast of Baja. We're waiting for that moment. Quite an adventure and quite a mission.

Ahead, we're going to look at this. They left their home countries to fight for ISIS. Some of them now, many, we're told, are regretting their decision. Apparently life with ISIS isn't quite what they thought it would be.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHTON CARTER, SECRETARY OF STATE NOMINEE: To the greatest fighting force the world has ever known, to you, I pledge to keep faith with you and to serve our nation with the same unflinching dedication that you demonstrate everyday. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Get used to seeing that face. That's Ashton Carter who could be the next secretary of defense. President Obama formally nominated him for the job. Carter would be the fourth secretary of defense. Chuck Hagel, for his part, decided not to attend is ceremony but said he will stay on board until his successor is confirmed.

Joining me now, a man whose brain I love to pick, global affairs analyst Bobby Ghosh.

I turn to you in times like this, Bobby. No pressure. Let's talk about this. We know if Carter is confirmed by the incoming Republican-controlled Senate, clearly, one of the largest issues he's going to be facing is ISIS. Give us some context. Was ISIS sort of the undoing of Hagel? We know from some accounts it seems as though he was pushed out. Given how ISIS is so front of mind for the United States, what do you think?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, for Carter, he has an external problem -- external problems -- and the biggest far and away is ISIS. He has internal problems and the biggest one there is the White House. As we've heard over and over again in the past few years, the White House runs foreign policy, the White House runs defense policy in the way that we haven't seen in many years from previous White Houses. So he will have to dance a narrow line where he has to satisfy the White House and at the same time be true to the troops that in a sense he is commanding.

PEREIRA: Because they are up against an enemy the likes of which we haven't necessarily faced. This is a newer type of terrorist, if you will.

GHOSH: This is the worst kind of terrorist group that has ever existed. We are fighting them with one hand, maybe two tied behind our backs. We have no troops on the ground. Our allies are likely to be fighting each other as much as they are fighting alongside each other. So a great deal of sympathy for Carter. To be in charge of the Pentagon is never easy but I can't think of a worse time to be entering this job.

PEREIRA: Any guy aware of what he's facing is a guy who was the deputy secretary.

I want to pivot a little for me and talk about something that I find curious, intriguing, disturbing. We know that there have been thousands of foreign fighters that have left their home countries to go and fight alongside ISIS. But we're also getting a sense that some of these young men and women who have been recruited online are starting to be a little disgruntled? What are you hearing?

GHOSH: There have been lots of stories complaining about the absence of facilities, that they're unable to charge their iPods. One famous instance, a couple days ago, a young Indian man returned from the fight in disgust because they were asking to clean toilets.

PEREIRA: Oh, no.

(LAUGHTER)

GHOSH: These are young men, mostly young men, who claim that they're willing --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: So much for idealism.

GHOSH: They say they're willing to die for their cause but not clean toilets.

PEREIRA: Don't want to clean the latrine.

But that brings about a practical matter, Bobby. How do you deal with those returning fighters? There has been great concern here, a lot in Europe and certainly in Britain, about returning quote/unquote, "jihadis" coming back. And there's concern about if there will be plots launched internally inside those countries. This changes that. There's a nuance because these are disgruntled former potentially jihadists returning home. You can't just open the doors and say, "Welcome back, folks." How do you deal with it?

GHOSH: There's a balance. On the one hand you do want them back because they're a source of enormous information.

PEREIRA: Very good point.

GHOSH: If you can get your hands on one of these young men coming back home unhappy with the fight you can get -- you can download a lot of information from them. Even if they were in the fringes of the jihad, even if they were outlier troops, you could get a lot of information from them. But then you have to watch them like a hawk. You can't just let them go into the community willy-nilly and ignore them. You have to watch them carefully.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: Do they face prosecution, in some instances?

GHOSH: In some cases, if they have participated in fighting, if they have contributed to the terrorist cause in one way or the other, yes, they've broken the law. Leaving home to go to Syria is in itself in some countries may not be breaking the law but if you've fought, yes, you potentially broken the law and that needs to be worked on.

There's another element, one more thing we're learning from these letters home, these plaintive letters home. It shows that in an interesting way that is' progress has stopped. The reason these guys are sitting around complaining about their iPods and their toilets is because they have time on their hands. The reason they have time on their hands is because ISIS is not making any progress anymore. ISIS's growth has stalled. In places in Iraq they're being pushed back, in Syria and Kobani, which we've covered for weeks now, they've been unable to make progress. So they have a lot of fighters standing around twiddling their thumbs. There's something to be taken from that.

Bobby Ghosh, interesting. They provide a trove of information and intelligence to authorities that are looking into how they can get more access to where this group is moving, what their next plans are. A delight to have you here. One on one. We got that John Berman out of the way. Kidding. Only kidding.

(LAUGHTER)

Come back and visit again.

GHOSH: Any time.

PEREIRA: We turn from the protests on the streets of New York to potential candidates for president. The deaths of two African- American men at the hands of police officers have sparked this national debate. Ahead, our political panel will talk about how we work to find a common solution.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I personally hope that these tragedies give us the opportunity to come together as a nation to find our balance again.

SEN. RAND PAUL, (R), KENTUCKY: It's bad policy that puts the police in an untenable position. The war on drugs does that, and so does an erroneous and excessive tax policy as well.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are a lot of black folks around that are just incredibly more and more distrusting of law enforcement, which is a shame, because law enforcement's job is to protect everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Major political figures, Hillary Clinton, Senator Rand Paul, former President George W. Bush each speaking with a very clear and particular opinion about the recent cases of black men dying at the hands of police officers. The cases of Eric Garner, Michael Brown, we know they've sparked protests from L.A. to New York, young, old, African-Americans, people of all races spilling on to the streets demanding fair treatment for everyone.

Joining me now, Niger Innis, the national spokesman for the Congress of Racial Equality and executive director of theteaparty.net; and political analyst, Zerlina Maxwell.

First, I love that we can have this debate not necessarily because of politics but in this political atmosphere.

Niger, why don't I start with you?

Interesting to see that those three politicians are like a how do we get on the same page, though, and how do we deal with everything that the three of us feel is a serious problem for our nation?

NIGER INNIS, NATIONAL SPOKESMAN, CONGRESS OF RACIAL EQUALITY & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THETEAPARTY.NET: Well, I think it's most important, if we have a dialogue, that it be a really open and brutally honest dialogue that takes political correctness and actually flushes it down the toilet and says, let's look at what the real crisis is. You know, I've said this for a couple of decades, that there is a black genocide taking place among young, black men. But when you consider the number of young black men that lose their lives to policemen, it's a little over 100. But the number of young, black men that lose their lives to other young black men is in the thousands. Sometimes 5,000, 6,000 a year. You have to ask yourself the question, if there is a genocide and a crisis with young, black men and a crisis of black masculinity, what really is the source of that crisis? It's not racism by cops.

PEREIRA: Zerlina, it's interesting to hear his thoughts. Also, talk about this need for honesty. That is not easy. It's painful and brings up a lot of things.

ZERLINA MAXWELL, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think part of the conversation gets distracted when we talk about black-on-black crime because I think we're ignoring the fact that black people that kill other black people go to jail. The justice system is in place to punish those who commit crimes. In this case it's a unique situation where it's not something where left or right, you take a position, I think everyone can look at this particular case and say an injustice occurred, we all saw it with our own eyes and we need to have accountability here. The police officer's job is to serve and protect the community, not to kill people on the street on video, particularly when they are doing something as minor as selling loose cigarettes.

PEREIRA: Niger, you've been talking about these issues and you're far too young, my friend.

(LAUGHTER)

INNIS: Thank you.

PEREIRA: But it is interesting and it is always -- I still think of my receives as the young person, I'm far from it but it's interesting to see that a lot of those faces in this movement are young how important is the staying power going to be in making sure that this change does come, that you enact real change?

INNIS: First of all, I think it's very healthy that young people get engaged in the political process and exercise their first amendment rights. All that I would ask is that, no, I don't think it's a distraction when you're talking about several thousand lives being lost versus 123, I believe, the statistic is. It's not that the lives are not precious. It's that if your folk discuss on life, if your focus is on what the crisis is among young, black men, I saw Jesse Jackson here earlier. Years ago he said he heard voices behind him and he was relieved that they were white men and not black men. There is a crisis of the image and projection of what a young black man is supposed to be in our society. (CROSSTALK)

INNIS: And until we are brutally honest about it, we're not going to get anywhere.

PEREIRA: Can we talk about this more? I'd like to have the both of you back with us because I think we sort of touched on the topic right now.

INNIS: Thank you.

PEREIRA: Niger Innis and Zerlina Maxwell, thank you for joining us.

I want to tell you about something that is happening here at CNN. We are days away from our tradition, "CNN Heroes, An All-Star Tribute." I hope you'll join us as we salute ten extraordinary people who give of themselves all year long.

The event happens this Sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, but I have a preview for you now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA (voice-over): At first glance, it might look like every other award show. But "CNN Heroes, An All-Star Tribute, hosted by Anderson Cooper, is an event like no other. The stars turn out to honor them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a great night for so many people being honored for just doing good because it pushes humanity forward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's basically recognizing people for what we should be doing every day, which is thinking beyond ourselves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm here with my daughter because that's what I want to teach her, that the individual really can make a difference.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reach. Reach. Reach.

PEREIRA: Individuals like a man who helped people with disabilities get stronger inside and out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is my honor to huge the weight lifter with the biggest heart ever, Ned Norton.

PEREIRA: A woman who saves lions from distinction.

(APPLAUSE)

PEREIRA: And a rabbi with a black belt who helps kids fight cancer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Given the opportunity, these children can inspire everyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're killing me CNN. You're got me sobbing in my chardonnay.

PEREIRA: It's a night full of emotion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those are my babies.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, CNN HEROES, AN ALL-STAR TRIBUTE: My friend, Kathy Griffin.

KATHY GRIFFIN, COMEDIAN: Thank you, Jake Tapper. Hi, everybody.

(LAUGHTER)

PEREIRA: An uplifting message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even in the darkest of places, decency and love can persevere.

PEREIRA: And performances that inspire. Standing higher

(SINGING)

PEREIRA: And it ends with a life-changing moment.

COOPER: The 2014 "CNN Hero" of the year --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: Wait for it. Make sure you tune in for the entire show, "CNN Heroes, An All-Star Tribute," Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Tune in and be inspired.

As I ran out the door this weekend, I want to let you know that you should watch the Dow. We're watching it. It's up about 90 points right now, getting awfully close to the 18,000 mark. We're monitoring that here at CNN. Stick with us. We'll bring you further updates.

That's it for us @THISHOUR. Don't forget to join Don Lemon on "Legal View." That starts right after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)