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Will National Protests Continue?; 'Rolling Stone' Apologizes for UVA Rape Story

Aired December 05, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: As we walk with the marchers, I want to ask you what you think should change. It's so easy to talk about this story in a very large way. But what concrete, specific changes do you want to see, other than accountability from these officers?

CONSTANCE MALCOLM, MOTHER OF RAMARLEY GRAHAM: We have to see law changes, because the police, the PBA, their unit is so strong. And the legislature, we have to try to get legislature to change, because if we don't do that, it's going to continue happening.

BALDWIN: They say they are changing. Today, we heard from the commissioner, from the mayor saying they are retraining the entire police department.

(CROSSTALK)

MALCOLM: I heard that from Ray Kelly when my son was killed. And coming two-and-a-half years later, it's still going on. So, how many changes?

We don't have no faith in these people, because they keep telling us over and over. When it's not the justice system, when it's not the police, it's the district attorney and the judges, because Judge Steven Barrett is the one that threw my case out. And I have to stand here and wait for the DOJ to give me an answer on if they again take my son's case and prosecute Richard Haste for murdering my son.

BALDWIN: If you had the commissioner or the mayor in front of you, and you could ask for one specific change, what would it be?

MALCOLM: We have to have police accountable. We have to stop letting these officers go and telling the parents that it's a tragedy.

It's not a tragedy because this is happening all over. Every day, every week, you turn the TV on, every day, you turn it -- it's going on. Retraining these officers is not going to do anything. They talk about body camera. We have everything on video from start to finish and we still can't get an indictment. So, does it say about these body cameras?

They could turn them off, turn it on. Who is going to extract these videos? Is it going to be an independent person or it's going to be the police officer or a police agent?

BALDWIN: There are -- and I hear you. And I also hear so many other people that say that there are very valuable, necessary good men and women who protect us.

MALCOLM: They are. There are good men and women. I stand here and say all police are bad, because that would be impossible.

You have some good police. But when you have police that are around and see their fellow officer doing wrong and don't stop them, they're just as bad as them.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

MALCOLM: You're welcome.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We do have some breaking news for you at the moment. "Rolling Stone" magazine embroiled in this major rollback this afternoon in one of the key centerpiece stories. The magazine now is apologizing for a rape on campus -- this is a huge report -- spotlighting this young woman -- they called her Jackie -- and her story of this alleged fraternity house gang rape incredibly -- down to the incredibly graphic detail on this piece on grounds that the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.

That report also took the university to task for failing to respond to this alleged sex assault. "Rolling Stone" never talked to any of the men Jackie named as her attackers and now "Rolling Stone" has put this apology up on its Web site.

Let me just read part of it for you now, saying -- quote -- "In the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie's account. And we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced." It goes on. "We were trying to be sensitive to the unfair shame and humiliation many women feel after a sexual assault and now regret the decision to not contact that alleged assaulters to get their account. We're taking this seriously and apologize to anyone who is affected by this story."

Let me bring in CNN investigations correspondent Sara Ganim, who was just on campus just this week in Charlottesville. We have UVA student reporter Catherine Valentine from the university so she can give us sort of some of the perspective here, and "Washington Post" media critic Erik Wemple. We know "The Post" just recently actually also talked to Jackie. Want to ask you about that in just a moment.

Welcome to all of you.

But, Sara, first you just -- you have all of this new reporting as we hear now from "Rolling Stone." When I hear the word discrepancies in Jackie's account, you know what some of these discrepancies are.

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right.

So, I have some of these details. I talked a bit ago to the attorney for the local chapter of Phi Kappa Psi on campus. That's the frat where Jackie says that she was assaulted by seven men, brutal gang rape, as you described.

It was described in the story as absolutely horrific. But there were some key details that according to this lawyer were not true. He ran through some of them for me, the big one being that according to records, according to e-mails, the frat did not have a party that night.

That's according to records from the school, from the inner fraternity council and also from the fraternity, that Drew, the man in the story that Jackie described as luring her to the party up to the room where she was attacked, he was not a member of the fraternity. And that's according to this lawyer.

Another one, there was no side staircase. Jackie described being brought up a side staircase into a room where she was attacked. She described having flashbacks of that staircase. And the lawyer says the staircase does not exist in this frat house.

There was no one with nicknames like Armpit was one of the nicknames in the story that she used. She said -- the lawyer said there's no one at that frat with nicknames like that. And finally he just said something to me that I think is worth pointing out. I said any other details you can tell me? He said it's not part of our culture. It's just not true.

BALDWIN: OK. That's from Sara from her reporting from the attorney.

Erik Wemple, to you, because you were one if not the first with "The Washington Post" to sort of say, hang on a second. A number of T's weren't crossed and I's weren't dotted in this story. What were some of your points that you had made in that piece this week?

ERIK WEMPLE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Right. Well, thanks for having me on, Brooke.

The main point that disturbed me was that this was an assault on which there was not yet a complaint. There wasn't a criminal proceeding, nor was there an administrative proceeding at the university. And so "Rolling Stone" was proceeding solely on the basis of the accused's account.

It didn't -- because of its deference to the -- excuse me -- the accuser's account -- because of its deference to the victim, it did not go out and seek comment from the accused. And so that was an enormous problem because they are threading this whole thing through one voice and there are a lot of other reportorial approaches that could have firmed up the story or knocked it down.

"Rolling Stone" never took those steps. It said it didn't take those steps because the victim did not want them to do so. That's what we call journalist malpractice. I don't think that would fly at CNN. It wouldn't fly here at "The Washington Post" or just about any other reputable outlet. It's really outrageous that "Rolling Stone" would have done this.

And I think that it has ended up doing a huge disservice to the victim in this case.

BALDWIN: And I think not only the victim -- and then, Catherine, I'm going to ask you about this in a second -- but I think women in general who legitimately have been sexually assaulted and raped.

I hope to God that their cries are taken seriously.

But, Erik, let me just stay with you, because I do -- let me quote -- this is from "The Washington Post." The woman, Jackie, as she referred to, spoke with "The Post" since all this has became public in "Rolling Stone." She told a reporter: "I never asked for this. What bothers me is that so many people act like it didn't happen. It's my life. I have had to live with the fact that it happened every day for the last two years."

So she, Erik, at least according to your newspaper, is standing by her story.

WEMPLE: Well, right.

I think it's important to separate here the journalism that "Rolling Stone" did from the woman who made these accusations. It's clear the one part of the "Rolling Stone" story that does have on-the-record sourcing says that this woman became dark. She shut herself in her room after a certain point that fall.

So, for all we know, yes, this woman did suffer something terribly traumatic. It doesn't appear to have been the scenario that "Rolling Stone" laid out. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold out the possibility that this woman really suffered here.

It was "Rolling Stone"'s fault that it didn't do the proper -- didn't take the proper steps to verify something and it's "Rolling Stone"'s fault that it didn't just bail on the story and let this woman live her private life.

BALDWIN: Excellent, excellent points, all of the above.

Catherine, you are listening to this conversation. I see you nodding as a student reporter at the university. And as a woman, my fear is that women will automatically jump to the conclusion that Jackie's story isn't real and they will call her a liar and they will call any woman that comes forward a liar as well.

CATHERINE VALENTINE, WUVA STUDENT REPORTER: I completely agree.

I'm worried that we're going to lose sight of what's really important here and that's sexual assault is happening on university campuses and grounds. A lot of good has come out of the "Rolling Stone" article. A lot of girls have come forward with their stories.

And I'm worried that girls are not going to report now out of fear of being called liars. And I'm hesitant to blame any victim for discrepancies in a story. I think the "Rolling Stone" reporter should absolutely be held accountable for not checking every single fact. BALDWIN: But I think it also doesn't -- agreed. It also doesn't

delegitimize your interview that you had with the dean bringing up this point that at university -- and we say it time and time again -- the era of Thomas Jefferson is pervasive in the air in Charlottesville.

No lying, no stealing, no cheating or else you're out, but apparently according to this interview with this dean, an alleged assailant can walk among his victims. Is that changing?

VALENTINE: Exactly.

Well, again, the board decided to adopt a zero tolerance policy. But I reported in October that no student at UVA has ever been expelled for sexual assault or rape. And what's come out in light of the article is that women are coming forward and saying, I have been through something like this.

And I don't want us to lose sight of them. I think that what we do know is that steps need to be taken moving forward. And I think the university is doing that. I think the zero tolerance policy was the right move and I hope the university still plans to take this opportunity to implement that policy.

BALDWIN: OK. Catherine Valentine, Sara Ganim, and Erik Wemple, thank you all very much.

WEMPLE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Appreciate it.

Coming up next, will the protests across America continue tonight over police treatment, some say aggression, brutality, after the Eric Garner nonindictment? We have new details and preparations by police.

Plus, the police union fired up with New York City's mayor for -- quote -- "throwing them under the bus." Why is that?

You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Question, will the protests continue tonight across America? Because many New Yorkers say what they have seen so far in the wake of Eric Garner's case has been unlike anything this city has seen in generations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: Show me what democracy looks like.

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: We can't breathe.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: Just the sheer mass of humanity out Thursday night took over major thoroughfares in huge cities and blocked traffic amidst chants and calls for justice, and not just here in New York, but in Dallas, and Chicago, Boston, Orlando, all of this to express frustration and the pain after a grand jury chose not to indict the officer who put Eric Garner in that chokehold back in July.

The 43-year-old father of six died. And today his mother talked to us here at CNN and said she cannot forgive officer Daniel Pantaleo and recalled her immediate reaction learning he would not be charged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GWEN CARR, MOTHER OF ERIC GARNER: I was very distraught, disappointed, and felt like I was failed by the system. It was not a good day for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me check in with Jason Carroll, who is live in New York's Times Square.

Jason Carroll, what do we think? Is there going to be a night number three of marching?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think so, Brooke.

If you listen to what everyone is saying on social media, I would expect another night of protests again tonight. I don't know if it will be like what we saw last night. You were out here. Thousands of people flooding into the streets not just here in Times Square, but over on West Side Highway, in Brooklyn as well, 219 arrests last night. That compared to 83 the night before.

Most of the arrests were disorderly conduct. There's a difference, though. What we're seeing, Brooke, is these demonstrators are becoming much more organized, using social media to spread the word. I'm not sure if you noticed it when you were out in the crowd last night, but some of them using walkie-talkies and headphones to communicate with each other to try to coordinate some of their protests.

One of the most -- I think one of the most compelling moments was last night out in Brooklyn when they staged one of those so-called die-ins in the middle of the street. They were carrying fake coffins around and then there was this moment of silence and people there saying that that was a very emotional moment.

These protesters are aggravated, they're frustrated. They say they are not giving up. In fact, we're hearing there might be another protest planned for this evening and that's going to be starting at about 5:30 in downtown -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, I was there in the middle of Atlantic Avenue right in the shadow of the Barclays Center when hundreds of people just stopped traffic in the middle of the roads and laid down and it was power of the silence I think that really spoke volumes.

Jason Carroll, we will check in with you through the evening. Thank you, sir.

Now, the police union in New York blasting Mayor Bill de Blasio, saying he's anti-police. One columnist even saying he's exploiting his own biracial son. A former New York police officer reacts next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: With protests raging, what a time for a spat between New York Mayor Bill de Blasio and his own police force. Some of the city's finest, they're grumbling under their breath, even swearing out loud.

And just wait until you hear what their union leader said in public in answer to what de Blasio said about the NYPD and its relations with the people of New York City, including de Blasio's mixed-race son. Here we go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Chirlane and I have had to talk to Dante for years about the dangers he may face.

Good young man, law-abiding young man who never would think to do anything wrong, and yet because of a history that still hangs over us, the dangers he may face, we have had to literally train him, as families have all over this city for decades, on how to take special care in any encounter he has with the police officers who are there to protect him.

PATRICK LYNCH, PRESIDENT, PATROLMEN'S BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION: What police officers felt yesterday after that press conference is that they were thrown under the bus, that they were out there doing a difficult job in the middle of the night protecting the rights of those to protest, protecting our sons and daughters, and the mayor was behind microphones like this throwing them under the bus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was the head of the union saying de Blasio -- you heard him say twice throwing cops under the bus right when they are trying to keep the peace.

Let's talk about this with Eugene O'Donnell. He's back with me today, former beat cop here in New York City, also former city prosecutor. He's trained police officers. He's now a lecturer at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, also served on Mayor de Blasio's Public Safety Transition Committee.

Quite a title, Mr. O'Donnell. Nice to have you back.

EUGENE O'DONNELL, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Hey, Brooke. How are you?

BALDWIN: Doing all right.

You understand, maybe you do to a degree, that some of the frustration from the police union official. And do you think the mayor took it too far alluding multiple times to what he implied really was this history, history of racism here in the New York Police Department?

O'DONNELL: No, I think we should find the common ground where most people are.

The mayor stated I think which is an essential truth. And I don't think the PBA disagrees with almost unreservedly -- there's is a part of it that may have been a little inartful. But the PBA has criticized the stop and frisk machinery that stopped hundreds of thousands of African-American kids in the last 10 years.

So, they deserve some credit for that. The mayor is stating a basic truth, which a lot of policing is done in the African-American community, and we sort of euphemistically dance around that. We talk about police-community relations. We're talking police operations in African-American neighborhoods. That is what we're talking about.

BALDWIN: What about Dante? The mayor mentioned his mixed-race teenage son and some of the talks that they have had on what the mayor called the dangers of encountering police.

But to you -- and I don't know if you're a father, but what kinds of conversations should parents be having? They should be having conversations with their kids, right, about what's going on.

O'DONNELL: They should.

Like everything else, there should be moderation of the conversation where again most people are. And the extreme stuff should be de- emphasized. I understand how people are emotional about the topic, but you have been on the street and New Yorkers have been out on the street and seen NYPD literally going full-tilt the last couple nights.

I bumped into two officers this morning that I work with on the way in after being out all night. They are really doing a herculean task. And they need to hear some supportive language from people. There has been some irresponsible language about the New York City Police Department, which is a very restrained organization.

I understand there are people upset. There have been some incidents recently, but looking at the whole picture, which I think most people are able to do, it's a very diverse job and it's a very restrained job. It's an imperfect job full of humans, but some of the depictions of the NYPD have really been unfair.

BALDWIN: As you mentioned, I saw -- I was out there for hours and hours last night. I really just from my own perspective was watching and was pretty impressed with how the New York Police Department really allowed these hundreds, possibly thousands when you count them all in the city allowing them to walk across bridges, stopping traffic, anticipating what would happen and just allowing them to do that. Now, one more for you. The mayor has said, the entire police force,

we have watched this together live on TV yesterday, the whole department will undergo retraining, which you say they will welcome. It's a three-day retraining. I'm just wondering though -- and this is something I actually heard from some of the marchers last night. What can you teach a veteran cop in three days that either she or he doesn't know and, for that matter, will really listen to?

O'DONNELL: People, understandably, presuppose when you leave the police academy in New York City that you have a tremendous amount of experience.

In fact, you have had a lot of sitting down at a desk, bureaucratic training. You actually haven't had all that much hands-on training. Three days is a very modest contribution, but it's better than nothing. We need to look at police training that's ongoing and that's lengthy, we invest in.

We may not have the desire to invest the money that we need to do. Policing is one of the most responsible jobs you could possibly imagine. What a cop can do in an eight-hour tour is literally mind- boggling. And they don't really have as much training either initially or in services as they could.

Some of what occurred -- it depends on how people choose to read the Garner case, and I'm not sure I know the ending or why the -- ultimate issue there, but I see in that case and there was a case in Brooklyn also with an officer on patrol shooting somebody -- I see core basic training issues there.

Other people may say other things. I think most police people would see basic police training stuff. And most police people would agree that there is a need for enhanced training and would endorse that.

BALDWIN: You bring up Brooklyn. I think that's the next big case that we will be talking about.

Eugene O'Donnell, thank you so much. Enjoy D.C. tonight.

O'DONNELL: Thanks, Brooke.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, coming up next, new details about the officer who killed a 12-year-old boy who was holding a toy gun, including that he was once deemed unfit. We will talk with one Ferguson protester who attended that young man's funeral.

Plus, George W. Bush is among many conservatives questioning the grand jury's decision in the Eric Garner case. You will hear from the former president ahead.

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