Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Pentagon Plans To Leave Extra 1,000 Troops in Afghanistan; "Rolling Stone" Retracts UVA Rape Allegation Story; Protests In New York Continues

Aired December 06, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECHNOLOGY REPORTER: Some inmates class will never step foot outside these bars. But for the ones that do, these technical skill set can be a game changer.

DAMON COOKE, INMATE: We are changing things from scratch and we are able to build on our ideas and say, wow, we can do this, we see future. We see hope.

SEGALL: Laurie Segall, "CNN MONEY" in San Quentin prison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right, getting ready for the next chapter in life. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Thanks so much for joining me all day. CNN NEWSROOM continues with Poppy Harlow in New York.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me. You are here in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

We begin this hour with two stories out of the Middle East, both about the war on terror and the fight against two deadly groups of terrorists, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

First the Pentagon planning to leave an extra 1,000 troops in Afghanistan. Outgoing secretary of defense Chuck Hagel talked about that today in Kabul.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We will maintain a limited counterterrorism mission against Al-Qaeda and its remnants, because as we draw down the combat mission, we have not forgotten, not forgotten what brought America to Afghanistan over a decade ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Meantime in Yemen, a desperate attempt to rescue a hostage from Al-Qaeda and failure. Al-Qaeda terrorists killed photo journalists Luke Somers and another western hostage during the raid yesterday. President Obama ordered the rescue mission after U.S. intelligence learns that Somers could soon be executed. Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins us now by phone.

Barbara, explain what went wrong here because what we are hearing is that the crucial thing here is that they lost the element of surprise.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Well Poppy, by all accounts, the Navy SEALs did lose the surprise at the very last minute. Something like 100 yards from the compound they were about to assault, where they believe the hostages were being held. They were discovered. A firefight broke out. And it became clear that the hostages were very quickly killed, shot at by one of the terrorists.

The Navy SEALs who were able to kill all the terrorists there, all the members of the Al-Qaeda group and take these two hostages out and try and medically stabilize them, keep them alive enough to get them medical treatment. But what unfortunately happened, one of the hostages died on the aircraft going back to the Navy ship and one of the hostages died then back aboard the Navy ship while they were rendered medical care.

It was an extraordinary effort by the Navy SEALs because consider this. They are deep inside Yemen, deep inside hostile territory and they spent a total of 30 minutes on the ground. They had to hike six miles to view the site from where they were dropped. They had to try and stabilize these two men who were very seriously and then mortally wounded. And, of course, they carried them back to the aircraft to get them back to the ship. So it was an extremely dangerous situation. None of the seals hurt. And they really don't know what happened. The speculation at this

point, there was no security breach. They think it might have been something as simple as dogs began barking, as the seals approached the compound and that's what gave them away -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And Barbara, we are talking about a young man 33-years-old who went to Yemen in 2011 to be an English teacher and then someone who really with the Arab spring wanted to document it as a journalist, as a photo journalist. His college professor calling him serious, compassionate and creative.

But if you believe Al-Qaeda and Arabian Peninsula, they are saying that this hostage was scheduled to be released in just days. Do we know if the U.S. knew that and would it have made any difference?

STARR: Right. And you know, we are talking about two men here in different circumstances, Luke Somers the American captured last September. He was working as a photo journalist. The other gentleman who lost his life with the South African Pierre Korkie, he by all accounts worked for this organization, which has now released a statement saying that he was going to be released tomorrow by his Al- Qaeda captors.

What the U.S. is saying is they did not know of any negotiations for the South African's release. They knew that there were two people there. They believe one of them was the American and made the decision to go and get the American and the other person who was there, remember they say they didn't know at the time anything about any potential relief. Their goal was to get the American Luke Somers out of there, because Al-Qaeda had made it clear they were about to kill him. That came out in that videotape earlier this week and they believe they have very good intelligence about where he was and it did prove to be true, unfortunately, at the last minute, it really pretty much all fell apart in terms of them being able to succeed in bringing these two men back alive -- Poppy.

HARLOW: That is, indeed, a tragedy.

Barbara Starr, thank you for the reporting on it in the latest. We appreciate it.

All right, let me show you two live pictures right now. This is happening as we speak. You are going to look on your screen at both, union station in Washington, D.C. and also grand central station in New York city, where you see many, many people, dozens lying down and they term this a die-in. Obviously, we have seen this in the days after the non-indictment of the officer who killed Eric Garner.

Let me go straight to our Nick Valencia. He is in Staten Island. That's the location where this happened.

Nick, I understand at this point you are there with a relative of Mr. Garner.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. There are so many family members out here today, bearing the cold, the rain, it's just starting to pour down on us, Poppy. So we want to bring in here Alicia Flag Garner. She is the sister of Eric Garner.

Alicia, you have seen the video, you have seen the demonstrations, how is that -- how do you internalize what you are looking at, all those people out there for your brother?

ALICIA GARNER, ERIC GARNER'S SISTER: It's a great demonstration. We loving the love, we loving the pouring out of people of, you know, the different race, colors and creed, you know. And I'm just loving it. My family, we loving it because this is the support that we need. We shoved have been had this support with before Eric, you know, long time ago. Maybe we wouldn't be standing ear today. But you know, it's good.

VALENCIA: This event has started a conversation about accountability, about police reform, about race. You have seen the video. There are still those out there who believe that Eric Garner was resisting arrest. How did you see the video?

GARNER: Well practically, the video is very clear. He was not resisting arrest. He was standing up for his rights. At the end of the day, you know, if police officers would know how to treat people more better and come together and, you know, get a little to know their communities maybe the community wouldn't be so resistant as they fail, you know.

VALENCIA: You are looking at this memorial to your brother. What goes on in your mind when you are looking at this wreath, these candles, all these flowers, these people surrounding you? What goes on in your mind?

GARNER: I just never believe that we would be here, you know, like this. It's just so unbelievable. I just -- I still try to, you know, swallow this pill. It's a hard pill to swallow.

VALENCIA: We give you our deepest condolences. Thank you very much for joining us on CNN, Alicia.

That was the sister of Eric Garner.

As a matter of fact, Poppy, what happens next year, are earlier members of the National Action Network said that they're planning a national rally in Washington, D.C. for next weekend. They said this is not going to go away. And they're determined to keep this story in the spotlight -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And night after night, no matter what the weather is, we have seen people voicing their frustration, their opinions in the streets there in New York, D.C. and across this country.

Nick, I appreciate the reporting.

Coming up next in the program after a quick break, we are going to talk about Jameis Winston, the Heisman trophy winner preparing for tonight's D.C. championship game, also continuing to defend himself against allegations of rape. We are going to take you live for the game and talk about the latest in that case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. Tonight is a big night for Florida State and the Heisman trophy winning quarterback will try to lead his team to victory. Not only will Jameis Winston lead the unbeaten the Seminoles in the ATC championship game against Georgia Tech. This also is all happening as a result of the university disciplinary hearing over a 2012 alleged rape hanging in the balance.

Let's go straight to Andy Scholes. He is live in Charlotte with the latest.

Andy, what is Jameis Winston saying right now? I know he has issued a statement.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's not speaking to the media. The only thing he has done lately, Poppy, is -- we found out what he told former Florida Supreme Court justice major Harding during the hearing. They released a statement. It was a graphic statement in terms of what he said what happened that night of the alleged sexual assault. I'll read a part of that statement for you right now.

He says I did not create a hostile, intimidating or offensive environment. In the short period of time that we were together, the accuser had the capacity to consent to having sex with me. And she repeatedly did so by her conduct and verbal expressions. He went on to say in the statement rape is a vicious crime. The only thing as vicious as rape is falsely accusing someone of rape.

Now, in terms of the hearing, we don't know when we are going to get a resolution from the former Florida Supreme Court justice. We are hearing from the accuser, attorney John Clooney expects one in two-to- three weeks. And even if the resolution is, Poppy, that Jameis Winston is expelled from Florida State, he can appeal that hearing, meaning he will get the remain on the field playing for Florida State. If they end up in the 14th playoff and even if go all the way to the national championship game.

HARLOW: All right, Andy Scholes, we will be watching. Thank you for the update on that. Let us know if you hear anything else. We appreciate it.

Coming up next, "Rolling Stone" magazine stunned people yesterday saying that it didn't completely trust the main accuser, the main source of tear story, that bombshell story about rape at the University of Virginia. A young woman named Jackie. But some people at this school argue there is still a problem with sexual assault at UVA. We are going to talk about it with the student who both knows Jackie and is still at the school, that's straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, "Rolling Stone" magazine now apologizing for its article on an alleged gang rape at the University of Virginia. The article titled "a rape on campus" describes a fraternity how sexual assault on a young woman named Jackie. They took UVA to task for failing to respond to what they call a gang rape. "Rolling Stone" never interviewed any of the man, they now say that Jackie named, that are her attackers.

But Jackie recently spoke with "the Washington Post" several times this week, and she stands by her story saying in part quote "I never asked for this attention. What bothers me is so many peopling a like it didn't happen. It's my life. I have to live with the fact that it happened every day for the last two years.

Let's bring in our Sarah Ganin. She has been following this story throughout. She joins us from UVA.

Sarah, what is the latest, what is the fraternity saying?

SARAH GANIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Poppy.

I did get off the phone with a spokesperson for the fraternity who local chapter just a little while ago. She told me a couple of things. One of them is that several weeks before that article came out, the university and the fraternity made contact with local police, began working with them on that specific allegation.

And there is more. I want to read to you a little more of the statement they put out today. They said while individual undergraduate members of the chapter were contacted by the "Rolling Stone" writers to comment on the quote "gang rape at Phi Psi," they provided no information because they had none to provide. The allegations were surprising and shocking to them as they were to everyone else. To my knowledge, no member was contacted by the "Rolling Stone" fact checkers.

Now, as you mention Poppy, this comes just a day after "Rolling Stone" seems to begin to back away from its reporting and back away from the woman who was at the center of that piece -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And saying "Rolling Stone" in their statement saying a number of things, including that they should not have placed all tear trust in this young woman, also saying that they did not check with those that she accused. Also saying that the lawyers for the fraternity have said, look, there was no party that night that this allegedly happened. But it really begs the question, Sarah, why did the reporter and the fact checkers not contact any of those that were accused. Do we know?

GANIM: Well, yes, the "Rolling Stone" actually addressed that specific point in their statement. And I want to read that for you, too. This is what they said.

We were trying to be sensitive to the unfair shame and humiliation many women feel after a sexual assault. And now regret the decision not to contact the alleged assaulters to get their account. They went go on to say we are taking this seriously and apologize to anyone who is affected by the story.

Now, as you mentioned, there are a lot of people on campus who feel affected by this story. The fraternity member, but also, sexual assault survivors here who fear that this could take away from a greater issue, which is rape on campus.

HARLOW: Yes. I'm so glad you said that, given the fact that the reality is that one in five women on college campuses are sexually assaulted during their time there. It is a huge problem. And Jackie standing by her story saying this did, indeed, happen to her.

Let me bring in someone with an up close view of what is happening at the University of Virginia and with this whole controversy over that "Rolling Stone" article. Her name is Sandra Menendez, she knows Jackie. And she is an intern with the women center for sexual assault of UVA. Thank you for joining me.

SANDRA MENENDEZ, STUDENT, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

HARLOW: Let me read you a part of the apologies, the statement that came from the "Rolling Stones" managing editor quote "in the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie's account. And we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced."

When you read that statement, what did that tell you? Did you read that as victim blaming?

MENENDEZ: I did read it as victim blaming and I think it's a crime and shame that she was portrayed as somebody who gave false information and that there was no liability from "Rolling Stone" for irresponsible reporting.

We have actually interviewed by Sabrina for that article. I was not quoted in the article. But I did feel the entire time that I was being interviewed that I was being put down or that I was being asked to answer questions based on an agenda and I know that she really wanted to tell an important story and that she really wanted to get this story out into the light. But I think that the way it was done was irresponsible journalism.

So I think the problem that "Rolling Stone" now has is two-fold, it is an irresponsible journalist and also it is a victim blaming which is only perpetrating the problem in sexual assault, not only UVA but the nation as a whole.

HARLOW: What's interesting, after this statement came out from "Rolling Stone," the managing editor, Will Dana, tweeted six tweets last night after one of them saying at the end there, the failure is on us, not on her. So, clearly, you know, reacting there, saying the failure is on us, obviously, we are going to watch, see if the story is retracted. It has not been at this point in time.

But I just wonder what you think can be done, because as you mentioned, Sarah Ganim mentioned, so many women are sexually assaulted and rape is a problem on college campuses. So are you concerned about the entire controversy over this story, all the details of what happened taking away from the real problem?

MENENDEZ: I'm incredibly concerned. I think a lot of people have been coming out on news sources exactly like CNN and saying those exact same things. I, in my work in the women's center, have worked with a lot of survivors. One in four or one in five is a real, real statistic. And I think that false reporting and trauma is also really, really difficult to kind of conceptualize.

So, for example, we do have this very small percentage of completely falsified information. I think it's anywhere between two and eight percent of rape reports are completely falsified, but a greater degree might have false recall or false information. And I'm just kind of draw a slight comparison, four years ago, Brown

University came out with a blog post linking trauma and post traumatic stress disorder and holocaust survivors and false recall with false accusations or false memory recall in sexual assaults.

This isn't to blame anyone. But this is how the brain interacts with trauma. And it's not discrediting any stories. What I guess I really want to say is that, you know, UVA certainly has a problem with sexual assault. And so do many other universities across the nation. And it's a national issue. It is even a global issue for women worldwide.

HARLOW: And let's remember that Jackie, as recently as this week saying to "the Washington Post," this happened to me. Have you talked to Jackie? Do you know how she is doing?

MENENDEZ: I have, yes. I have not personally talked to Jackie. I know her through a peer advocacy retreat that we went on, where she talked about the story before it had even been dropped through "Rolling Stone," before it had been released to the public. And I know that she was very afraid about this story.

But I do think that regardless of whether or not there is false information, I think that sexual assault still certainly is a problem and needs to be talked about. So there will be light and goodness that comes out of it because this university is really taking it as its institutional message to fight this and to be an example for other universities across the nation.

HARLOW: I am very glad to hear that. We will be watching what happens, what changes there at UVA.

Thank you for joining us, Sandra. I appreciate it.

MENENDEZ: Thank you.

HARLOW: We are going to talk more about -- of course. We are going to talk more about this. Did "Rolling Stone" blame the victim in their apology? And is that distracting from a crisis as you just heard from Sandra at UVA and colleges across the nation? Our panel gives their take on that story.

And also, of course, on the unrest after the grand jury's decision in both the Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases. That is ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hello and welcome. I'm Sunny Hostin joined today by my friends Sally Kohn, Mel Robbins and Margaret Hoover.

And first up today, "Rolling Stones'" apology for the University of Virginia rape story. This is what the magazine said about the mane accuser, a student they call Jackie. "In the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie's account. And we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced."

But while "Rolling Stone" blamed her, lots of people are blaming "Rolling Stone."

Philip Gourevitch, a writer for "The New Yorker" tweeted this. Shorter "Rolling Stone" note? We misreported Jackie's story. We published it without checking it. We blame her for telling it to us.

So "Rolling Stone" tries to expose rape culture and ultimately seems to end up shaming a victim who dared to tell her story to the magazine. Now, we have been talking about this amongst ourselves. We all have concern for different reasons. Mel, your concern.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR/LEGAL ANALYST: Well, my concern when I first heard this, Sunny, my immediate reaction was, OK, let me get this straight. So the fraternity who is at the center of the firestorm now has concerns and they're claiming, for example, the party never happened that night and now suddenly we have to believe the fraternity wholesale and we're not going to believe anything this woman said when the "Rolling Stone" article says that she went and reported this and met with the Dean and she is standing by her story. I mean, that troubled me immensely, Sunny.

HOSTIN: The most. And especially because we are also hearing that perhaps "Rolling Stone" did not confront the actual accusers and ask them for their side of the story.

Margaret, your concerns?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: To me, that concern about the story is not the specifics of the story, but the ideological prism through which many people are approaching this story, trying to make it the perfect representation of their world view. I mean, there are a lot of people who really believe there is a culture of rape on campuses. And you walk into every fraternity, and you are going to get raped. That's a bit overstated to me.

But there is a real problem on college campuses with women being sexually assaulted. And how do you strike a balance? How do we tease out the truth and sort of try to not let the ideological sort of movement take control of the story?

HOSTIN: So, Sally is clearly chomping at the bit at this point.

(CROSSTALK)

SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I love Margaret. I don't think, you know, look, I have been hearing this the last 24 hours on twitter, too. I don't think there was an ideological agenda to believe this, yes. But I do think there is an ideological agenda to want to report and address the realities of rape. And that's -- there is an agenda that want the truth to come out when it is the truth, plain and simple. And I don't think there is anyone cheering for this story to be true, right? I think we'd all be relieved if this didn't happen.

I so think the thing that concerns me the most, especially the way the "Rolling Stone" has handled it, is to discourages any other young woman or for that matter, man, in coming forward and telling the truth about what has happened, when it has happened, in this or any other story. We should not have that kind of chilling environment. That's really the story here.

HOSTIN: Well, and that's what concerned me, quite frankly, because as most of you know, I was a sex crimes prosecutor. And so, that's what I did. And I can tell you the stats support the notion that she would have been telling the truth. And that's because if you look at the FBI reports and the FBI stat, only two-to-eight percent of rape allegations are false allegations, right?

ROBBINS: Two-to-eight percent?

HOSTIN: Two-to-eight percent. And if you also look at the FBI reporting, one in five women, that's 18.3 percent in their lifetime are raped. And I would suggest to you that those numbers are actually higher, because date rape, especially, is rarely reported. It is very difficult for these women to come forward and most of them do not. And I know that, because I worked with them day if, day out. ROBBINS: You know, what also bothers me, is that, you know, and we

are not going to get into the facts of this, because they're all over the place, but in terms of the quote concerns that, the fraternity raised, that then had "Rolling Stone" walk back on their own journalism, they seem pretty darn inconsequential to the broader narrative. Nobody has said it's just not true.

And what "Rolling Stone" has basically done is they said she's a liar. And yet there are pieces of this that they were able to substantiate.

KOHN: We don't know yet. We just don't know. And I think it's unfortunate. And really, if we are going to blame anyone, we should blame "Rolling Stone" for not fact checking the story (INAUDIBLE). That's appropriate, I think.

You know, I have been at the sort of center of a number of folks on the left half who believe this story as one tends to do when one reads things in reputable magazines. Folks saying, you have to apologize for believing this. And, you know, my response is what I'm not going to do, what I'm never going to do is apologize for my inclination to believe women in the face of a culture and a society that's so is set up and inclined to not believe women. And what's disturbing to me is however this is playing out in a sort of he-said she-said thing, and it seems like, let's just believe the fraternity.

HOOVER: But here's the problem, is that if it turns out for any reason that she is un-credible or this story is unsubstantiated, the movement that is trying to bring attention of sexual tension to sexual assault on campus suffers a blowback. And that's not what you want. That's not what any of us want. But because people are so quick to rally to this story before it was corroborated or the journalism, I think, you know that movement or those folks that approached it that way are at risk of having, of losing credibility.

HOSTIN: And that's what's so interesting because it's about the face of the movement, right? Who is the best face to put forward on a movement? And we talked a lot about the victim in this case, Jackie, and how "Rolling Stone" talks about her.

What about the victims in Ferguson, Missouri and New York? Some again are suggesting they aren't the perfect victim. Should that take away from their message, though? We're going to talk about that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KOHN: Welcome back. I'm Sally Kohn joined today Sunny, Mel and Margaret. Follow us on twitter. Join in, tweet us your reaction. We will re-tweet them and discuss them.

The cases of Michael Brown and Eric Garner have been unmistakably linked together.

Consider this. They were killed three weeks apart by police. Both deaths led to grand jury, but no indictments. And both let to debates about police brutality. And also, some pointed to questions about their outrage over the tragedy because of the actions of the victims.

In the "New York times," Charles Blow writes the argument that this is not a perfect case because Brown, and what would assume now Garner, isn't a perfect victim and the protesters haven't all been perfectly civil. So therefore, any movement to counter block oppression from that flows from the cases inherently flawed. We don't need to identify angels and demons to understand that inequity is hell.

This Charles Blow write, even in the wake of police violence of black communities that folks are protesting, are we scrutinizing the victims and protesters? Infinitely more than we are scrutinizing the system? And is this an attempt to change the story from actually solving the problems of systemic violence and policing throughout America? Margaret.

HOOVER: Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes.

KOHN: Enough said.

HOOVER: Look, I think there are actually really important differences between the two cases, between Michael Brown as the exemplar of this movement which is Eric Garner as the poster child for the movement. And this is a little bit what we are talking about in the last block. It is, you know, Eric Garner, both were horrible tragedies. But when you have, what you have seen is, with Eric Garner's really horrific death and the no indictment. There is almost uniform condemnation there was no indictment on the conservative side and democratic side.

KOHN: True.

HOOVER: Because there was a video about it. But he is, in some ways, a better poster child for the movement because other people can't pin their doubts on the ambiguity in the case. There is no ambiguity. You have seen it on video.

KOHN: Is that true, Sunny? How much does the video matter?

HOSTIN: You know, I think the video is everything. Because to be sure, had there not been a video of Garner's death, what we would be then left with is the police narrative, which would have been big scary black guy, resisted arrest, was being aggressive, was overweight and just died as a result of being taken down. That's what we would have been left with.

And I got to tell you, I don't think that Garner is necessarily a better poster child, because we don't have the video of what happened to Michael brown. We all are assuming that officer Wilson or ex- officer Wilson, who in my estimation had every reason not to be truthful in front of the grand jury, right, because he was on the line. You know, we only, we're sort of wholesale believing what he has to say. Had there been a video, I think we would be in a very different place.

KOHN: Mel, you are a defense attorney, what do you think?

ROBBINS: Well, I kind of agree with Margaret that Eric Garner is a much better poster child for a movement, if we need one, because there were ambiguities in the Michael Brown case. And there are a lot of people, including myself, that still stand by the indictment being the right result in that case. I don't agree with how the whole process went down. But I do think that was the right results, my opinion.

However, I also agree with Sunny. Let's look at two examples. Cliven Bundy, remember him, the cowboy wearing guy that had the standoff with federal agents, aiming guns at them, he became the poster child for the tea party and for fighting for your rights. And that was a narrative.

KOHN: He was a hero.

ROBBINS: He was a hero. Exactly.

KOHN: Until he says, really, races --

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: Horrible stuff. But look at another one, Tamir Rice. So Tamir Rice is a 12-year-old in Cleveland that was shot, the kid that had the toy gun? Now, before that video is released, the police had already started smearing -- well, not the police, but people in the media had started smearing Tamir Rice, and bringing up his family history and the violence in the home, and all this stuff. But more importantly, the police have already submitted a report. They didn't know there was a video that said he was sitting with a group of kids that said they warned him three times, all things that you can see clearly in the video never happened. So we, Tamir --.

HOSTIN: It is blaming the victim.

ROBBINS: Correct.

And so, I think what you are basically saying is I guess where I fall on this, I do think there is no ambiguity of what the heck happened to Eric Garner. And there is no ambiguity about what happened to Tamir Rice.

KOHN: But to Charles Blow's point, there is also this, you know, we are sort of taking the conversation away from scrutinizing the system and talking about the reason out there people are protesting these deaths, instead, kind of having this scrutinizing the victim, scrutinizing the protesters.

I want to pull up this quote from Martin Luther King. There has been a lot of talk about comparing and contrasting the protest in Ferguson, with the ones that happened after Eric Garner's death.

And Martin Luther King said I knew I could never raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos, without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today, my own government.

Martin Luther King, who a lot of people sight, to say no, no, no, no violence in the protests. Now, obviously, none of us are condoning violence in protests. But, you know here's something provocative. We only paid attention to those Ferguson protests because there was violence. Nobody would have cared. We wouldn't have had the media around-the-clock coverage of the protests, is that right, Sunny?

HOSTIN: And sadly, I believe that's true. I am not condoning looting and rioting. Please don't tweet about that. But the bottom line is, you know, when you look at the coverage, that's what sort of galvanized everyone. Instead of looking at the real frustrations that the community, I think, was, you know, trying to put forth, we saw that frustration. And it's about police brutality, isn't it?

HOOVER: Well, I do think it does risk sounding like the violence is somehow necessary in order to get Ferguson on the map. And I think, you know, we all know that there are business owner who are real victims as well.

ROBBINS: And they cover it for months and months before the actual riots happened.

KOHN: We are not condoning it. Don't say we did. But the reality is that's why in part, we paid attention.

OK. So, the protests are, in fact, obviously, about police brutality, but also race, to what extent, anyway? What we are going to talk about next is one more important than the other? And are police just reflecting something bigger, which is white fear of African-Americans? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOOVER: Hello, and welcome back. I'm Margaret Hoover and I'm joined by Sally, Sunny and Mel.

Now, let's talk about the one word that is hanging over from Ferguson and the New York case. That word is race. You have white police officers, black victims. Is this case about police brutality or fear, specifically fear that white people have over African-Americans? A lot of people say it's one or the other. Some people say it's both. But CNN spoke with Eric Garner's daughter. Listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERICA GARNER, ERIC GARNER'S DAUGHTER: Being that my father was black and the officer was white, I mean, that is different races. But as far as the situation, I can't really say it's really a black-and-white issue. It's about, you know, the police officer and abusing their power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOOVER: So, that's what we're talking about today. Is this about police injustice or is this about race? You know, we all have different opinions on this.

Sunny, you have a strong view on this. Is it brutality from the police or is it race? HOSTIN: Look, I think it's both. I think when you hear Eric garner's

daughter say it's situational, certainly when you look at it, everyone, no matter race, creed, color, you should be offended. You should be horrified. You should be sickened by what you saw.

But I think that race unfortunately is a part of the interaction that law enforcement has with people. And the stats are there to support that. So the suggestion that it's not a part of the dynamic, I think is just sort of wishful thinking.

ROBBINS: You know, it's interesting because we've been talking about it so much for the last couple weeks, particularly Sunny and I on air. And I've been focusing so much on the police brutality side, but I've been listening particularly you talking about implicit bias. And so, I get on the subway when I got off the train from Boston this morning to come do the show. And I sit down and I scan the subway and there is a super tall black dude in a hood, hoodie, rather, and I immediately noticed my kind of sensors going off like and I thought what in the hell are you doing, Mel, and this is exactly what you are talking about.

HOSTIN: And that's what I have talked about sort of that now -- you know, you're not a racist, Mel. I know that. But we all have that implicit bias that we carry with us for better or for worse. And we do need to talk about that and be introspective about it.

I mean, I remember when I was in my 20s, I was walking in Harlem with my dad and late at night black guy comes up and I -- I, too, sort of was kind of checking him out. And my father said what are you doing? You don't have to be afraid of your own people.

So it's just very interesting that even I have some implicit bias, unconscious bias. And I think people need to admit that that is usually part of the dynamic that occurs when you're talking about law enforcement and communities of color.

ROBBINS: How can it not be?

KOHN: Well, we don't have to even suppose this, right? There's research on this. There's a study where they took computer generated wheat faces and black faces and showed that to research subjects, the exact same faces, just rendered by computers. And the respondents, the white respondents would overwhelmingly say that the black face was angry.

ROBBINS: Yes. And I saw it.

KOHN: And judge it. And you know, look, that's not something you consciously do. It's not something you intend to do. It is not something you can -- but it is just the way we act. And if you kind of take that as one small example and think about how does that, then, weave through all our interactions and certainly how it weaves when you're a police officer, right? And someone's life is at stake and it is deadly.

HOOVER: Yes. So I mean, we talked about the risk about talking about this kind of bias that's unconscious is that people hear this conversation and they think you're saying, OK, all white people are racist.

HOSTIN: I hate that because that is not true. Why can't we talk about bias like we've just done and not label someone a racist? I know Mel is not a racist. I know you are not a racist. But can't we talk about the fact that perhaps we all have a bias?

HOOVER: And how that sort of seeps into our perceptions, consciously or unconsciously, and maybe encourage individuals, people like ourselves, our friends to think about introspectively where does this bias show up in myself? And how can I check myself each day or be aware of it when it comes up so it's not guiding my perceptions, my life, or -- or making decisions for me in a way that's maybe destructive.

ROBBINS: Or and interestingly a lot of the police training that they're talking about implementing both nationwide and here in New York city is on this direct topic so that you are policing and doing community policing based on people's actions not based on this implicit bias that we all have that's never going away but through self-reflection and knowing about it you can do something to change it.

KOHN: Well, that's what disturbs me is if we don't have the conversation if the minute you bring up race, people get defensive and say, no, it's not at all about race. Just saying something, by the way, is about race doesn't mean it's all about race. But if you can't have the conversation, say no, no, I don't see race, I'm color blind, that is -- right? Then that kind of sense of wishful thinking means you then don't have an ability to be introspective. And to start to see these, these little habits and patterns that you are no conscious, but can try and be more aware.

HOSTIN: I think what's interesting in terms of discussing race I get called a racist on twitter all the time which is fascinating to me. But the true definition of a racist is someone that believed that some races are inherently superior to others and then have the right to this dominate them. That is a very different definition from what bias is and I wish that we were sort of talking about bias so much more than talking about being racist.

KOHN: Much more constructive.

ROBBINS: Let's keep talking about -- thanks for joining us. If our conversation about implicit bias piqued your curiosity you can take the Harvard race test that we were talking about right here for free. Check it out on the screen for the link.

And if you do, tweet us your thoughts. Tweet us whenever you want. We'll see you next Saturday at 3:30. The amazing Poppy Harlow is up after the break and let's take a look ahead to tomorrow night. At 8:00 eastern when celebrities will team up with CNN to honor some real heroes. Here's a sneak peek.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: You have the power to do anything, to make a difference, to inspire and change the world. Everyday people do everyday things

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wanted to actually still to do something for Afghanistan. I want to help the people and the dogs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've giving them the best present in order to make a better future.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm here to honor real her heroes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is going to be a great evening.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, AC 360: Welcome to CNN heroes an all- star tribute.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is my honor to hug the weightlifter with the biggest heart ever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never worry about what you can't do. Never, ever quit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's incredibly humbling to be recognized as a CNN hero.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This has been an amazing time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're killing me, CNN, got me sobbing all up in my chardonnay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: See the stars come out to honor the top 10 CNN Heroes of 2014.

CNN Heroes, an all-star tribute tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)