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Don Lemon Tonight
Tamir Rice's Family Demanding Charges Filed Against Officer; More Celebrities, Athletes Taking a Stand on Ferguson and Eric Garner; Protests Spread Over Police Killings; Eric Garner's Children Speak Out; Interview with Tavis Smiley; Officer Shoots and Kills Man in Stairwell
Aired December 08, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN tonight. I'm Don Lemon. You just saw our CNN Special, The Cosby Show, A Legend Under Fire. We've got more to come on the scandal just ahead.
Meanwhile, outrage spreading over police killing of African-American men and boys. From Ferguson to the NYPD chokehold case, to the killing of a 12-year-old playing with an air gun in Cleveland.
Protests boiling over again tonight. CNN's reporters are outside New York's Barclays Center. Prince William and his wife courtside for the Nets-Cavaliers game.
LeBron James wore this "I can't breathe" T-shirt during tonight's warm-up. We're going to ask Tavis Smiley what Dr. Martin Luther King would have thought of what's happening in the streets tonight.
Also, the children of chokehold victim Eric Garner. Why they say this is not about race. And the parents of Akai Gurley, an unarmed man shot to death in an unlit stairwell by rookie New York City police officer. They are praying for justice for their son.
We have a whole lot to get to tonight. We want to get out to Berkeley, California, now and CNN's Dan Simon with the very latest -- Dan.
Dan Simon, are you there?
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I haven't heard anything in a minute. Are you guys there?
LEMON: Yes, apparently Dan Simon is having an issue. He's not hearing us. But again, we're hearing that there are protests. And as you can see, happening in Berkeley, California. You can see the protesters there lining the streets courtesy of our affiliate KTVU.
We want to get to CNN's Deb Feyerick who is out among the protesters as well.
Deb, where are you and what are you seeing?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hey, I can hear you. Can you hear me?
LEMON: Yes, I can.
FEYERICK: Is this Don?
LEMON: Yes, it is.
FEYERICK: I'm sorry, Don. It's a little bit loud here. Hold on. I'm going to --
LEMON: What's going on, Deb?
FEYERICK: Not much. There are really just a handful protesters left. It was much larger earlier on. You know, now there are just a couple of dozen protesters who have stayed around. But the crowd is running out. You know, the police have it very well under control. The organizers basically the protests called at about a little after 9:00, a quarter after 9:00. This is sort of the hardcore group that's sort of here.
LEMON: Deb, you have been out there almost every night with those protesters. The numbers get big and then they get small. Is this usually about the time that they start to dwindle? Are you finding it happening earlier now?
FEYERICK: You know, it's interesting. We have been out here a lot. Usually the protesters go home around midnight. This was an earlier protest. It was very well organized. There did seem to be sort of some central leaders. We heard that Trayvon Martin organization was here as well as another justice group. And -- so they decided effectively around 9:15 after they've walked into a shopping mall across the street from the Barclays Center to call it a night.
They're going to regroup on Wednesday they say and demonstrate outside city hall. But right now we've just got a hardcore group of some of the residual protesters. Police really were incredibly tempered in their response. We were in Times Square on Thursday, and the police then were much, much more aggressive. It may have been because there was so many streets that were closed down the night before.
But here out in Brooklyn a much different tone. And the police who are in dispute from a lot of the protesters who were very angry, demanding justice, calling them racist, calling them pig, calling them, you know, killers, and the police just stood and watched and stormed the perimeter, let them do what they needed to do. And then about 9:15 the majority went home.
LEMON: Yes. And so I wonder if the protesters have any reaction to what's happening inside the Barclays Center. Of course the royals are there and then you have LeBron James and teammates as well. We had Derrick Rose earlier and LeBron James got the idea from him wearing the "I can't breathe" T-shirt. Any reaction to that, Deb?
FEYERICK: Yes. It was really interesting because word got out to one of the organizers that in fact he was wearing that T-shirt along with a number of players who were wearing it. And the crowd cheered. And it was rather a remarkable scene because it came at a moment when they had staged one of these die-ins where they were laying down in the middle of the street right outside the Barclays Center and all of a sudden everybody sort of got up and cheered because they really appreciated the support that LeBron James and other players were showing to them outside.
And I can say probably the height of the protests, Don, there were a couple of hundred people. Maybe as many as 400 or 500 people who were out earlier today. Nobody really came to disrupt the royals but they knew that it was a good opportunity for them to be here and to make sure in their words that they spoke for Michael Brown, that they spoke for Eric Garner, and that they made sure that they had a good showing out here in Brooklyn -- Don.
LEMON: CNN's Deb Feyerick out with the crowd.
Deborah, thank you very much for that.
Eric Garner's family is closely watching the protests tonight. And his children join me now exclusively. Sons Eric Jr. and Emery, and daughters Erica and Emerald.
Thanks all of you. Such a beautiful family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
LEMON: You guys were talking about -- you specifically talked about, Emery, you mentioned LeBron James.
EMERY GARNER, SON OF ERIC GARNER: Yes.
LEMON: What do you think -- what do you think of the players wearing the T-shirts?
EMERY GARNER: It's a lot of support.
LEMON: Yes.
EMERY GARNER: For me and my family.
LEMON: Yes.
EMERY GARNER: LeBron James, my favorite player. So you know, actually it's surprising.
LEMON: Yes. What about you, Eric?
ERIC GARNER JR., SON OF ERIC GARNER: I went downtown with Russell Simmons earlier, and it was just beautiful out there. It's a lot of positive. There's no negativity. I hope they keep it like that. We don't need negative at this time.
LEMON: Yes. I'm going to ask you about that, Emerald, by the way. And it's nice to see you guys smile. Right? Because it's such a heavy story, right? And, you know, it's not to downplay what happened to your father, obviously, and what's going on. But it's good to see you smile, quite honestly, because it's been a tough time.
EMERALD GARNER, DAUGHTER OF ERIC GARNER: It's been very hard. I'm really -- I'm proud of the protesters, especially the peaceful ones.
LEMON: Yes.
EMERALD GARNER: And wearing those T-shirts, they -- you know, they get fined for that. So they're taking the fine. Like you know, we're going to take the fine and you know, we're supporting the cause. It's like really awesome. And then it's just amazing.
LEMON: Let's talk more about what Derrick Rose said. Derrick Rose, tonight Derrick Rose said that two years ago he may not have worn a T- shirt but he said -- may not have worn that "I can't breathe" T-shirt but now that he has children, he has children, that his outlook is different.
You have a child now. Right? You mentioned --
(CROSSTALK)
ERICA GARNER, DAUGHTER OF ERIC GARNER: We both have children.
LEMON: You both have children.
EMERALD GARNER: I have a 3-year-old.
LEMON: Yes.
ERICA GARNER: And I have a 5-year-old.
LEMON: And now you can -- anyone with a child can relate.
ERICA GARNER: Yes. Because, you know, it can happen to anybody. I mean, this was a very tragic, tragic thing. And I felt like everybody who watched that video, you know, felt what my family feels, and it feels so good. That's what's keeping us encouraged. That's what's keeping us strong as a family. And we just thank the supporters because, you know, without them, I mean, without Ramsey Orta just to say, like, without him, you know, the story wouldn't be as wide as it is.
He was brave enough to take out his phone and, you know, so my thanks goes out to him. I've just seen him a couple of days ago and we had a very long talk. And every time I see him I've just got to thank him. He's just like my brother. One of my brothers.
LEMON: And what do you say, though, because, I mean, I don't want to give shore shift to this. What do you say to the protesters, the ones who are being violent?
EMERALD GARNER: The ones who are being violent, come on over to the other side. You know? I've committed my life to this. I just made a commitment. I've joined the youth move. I'm at the huddle every Monday.
LEMON: National Action Network.
EMERALD GARNER: National Action Network. I'm the chairperson for the march, that's coming up on Washington. So I just want to encourage the youth to come reach out, you know, tell us what we can do to make it easier for you. Like, you know, we're at the forefront. Like you're doing it for us but we want to know what you want to bring to protesting as the youth.
LEMON: I know when last we spoke -- I'm going to get to you. You guys can speak if you want. You can jump in here. Are they always -- are they always that quiet?
ERICA GARNER: No, they're not.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: They're on TV looking at themselves. He's like, is this water? What's going on here?
(LAUGHTER)
EMERALD GARNER: Yes, you can have a drink. Don't feel nervous.
LEMON: You got him, right? Big sisters here. So you mentioned last time we talked, you said you don't think body cameras would have helped. But then if there wasn't a camera there, because not everybody -- you said, he was brave to pull out his phone. But if there's a camera there that's rolling all the time, don't you think that's an opportunity to sort of bring out injustice or to keep injustice from happening?
ERICA GARNER: No. Because it's -- just like I read in reports, it can be as in -- you know, cops can only turn it on -- turn in on and turn it off at certain times. You know, it's not going to be --
EMERALD GARNER: So they have free will to turn it off and on?
ERICA GARNER: I mean, I really don't know.
EMERALD GARNER: Do they?
ERICA GARNER: But I read somewhere that, you know, it's a conflict with that. Like --
EMERALD GARNER: So there's no really --
LEMON: But do you think without this camera that there would be such an agreement that this was either a race or a class injustice, or whatever it is? You don't think it would be from multiple ethnicities?
EMERALD GARNER: It was an injustice, period. Because again, there's black, white, Chinese. I have a store in front of my house, on the side of my building, and they're like, you know, we can't be out there to protest but, you know, we support you. We support you. They're like, you know, do you see the protests? Everybody texting me like did you see Paris? They were laying down in front of the Eiffel Tower, or did you see California? They were doing this, they were doing that.
So it's just -- it's an everybody thing. You know, so it's like for celebrities to be like, you know, let's support the Garner family because that was wrong, you know, it was wrong. So there's nothing they can do to make it right. But we can fight for justice so that it won't happen another time.
LEMON: Yes. And the cat has Emery and Eric's tongue.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: They didn't want to say -- they didn't want to say anything. It has been -- you said it wasn't a racial issue, and I think I saw you on television. Do you guys feel that -- because there's been people saying how can the family say this?
ERICA GARNER: It's not -- it's just because I was so nervous. It's not that it's not about race. The racial issue's been going on for years. For years. But with the police department you have a professionalism. You know, we can't control -- as people, we can't control everybody's thoughts on racism or who's racist. Who can't --
EMERALD GARNER: It all comes back to community relations.
ERICA GARNER: And say who's racism or whatever. But I feel the city, the government, or you know, whoever with these cops can control how they treat people of color, people of, you know, minority communities.
LEMON: Do they let you speak? Are you guys OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
LEMON: It's been up and down for you, right?
EMERALD GARNER: What do you all want to say? Like --
LEMON: Yes, what do you want to say to the people?
EMERALD GARNER: You know which of you.
EMERY GARNER: I want to say thanks for everybody who support us. And like without the support they probably would sugarcoat it or whatever. So I thank everybody for my dad.
LEMON: And your name is Eric Garner.
ERIC GARNER: Yes.
LEMON: And that's going to -- that's going to follow you forever. People will remember your name forever.
ERIC GARNER: Yes.
LEMON: What's that like having that name now? ERIC GARNER: I've got to carry a legacy. And I've got to be strong
for my family.
EMERALD GARNER: Yes. And this right here is his legacy. We've got to carry on.
LEMON: Stay strong. You're a beautiful family.
EMERALD GARNER: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you, Eric. Thank you, Emery. Thank you, Emerald. And thank you, Erica. You told me they were all E's.
EMERALD GARNER: A lot of E's.
LEMON: I couldn't remember last time. You were like this --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Thank you. It's good to see you smile again. Thank you very much.
EMERALD GARNER: Thank you.
ERICA GARNER: Thank you.
LEMON: When we come back, Tavis Smiley is here. He tells me what Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. would do about all of this. And I'm going to talk to the parents of Akai Gurley, an unarmed black man killed by a police officer just last month.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back. Our breaking news. We've been showing you the protests all over the country. This is Berkeley, California, you're looking at now. And you can see we don't have control of these pictures. This is courtesy of our affiliate. Their helicopter there. But you can see some of the traffic is back up because protesters are on the street. But our Dan Simon is there now and he joins us now to tell us the very latest.
What are you seeing, Dan?
SIMON: Well, hey, Don, after two days of violence right now you have the very definition of a peaceful protest. Thousands of people right now marching through the streets of Berkeley. Walking with them are mainly young demographic, a lot of Berkeley students. If there is going to be violence tonight, it will come from a very small fringe element. We do see some people dressed with masks, things of that nature.
Those are the people you look out for who may cause trouble. But so far this crowd is behaving themselves, and we hope it stays that way -- Don.
LEMON: Yes. Let's hope it stays that way because all of them start, Dan, initially peacefully, and then somehow some of them evolve into -- or devolve, I should say, into a rowdy crowd. But so far you're not seeing any of that. How many people are we looking at there, Dan?
SIMON: I would say between 3,000 and 4,000. So if the largest crowd we've seen. And you have to remember, it's just after 7:00 Pacific Time. So it's still early. And over the weekend when the violence broke out it was definitely, you know, in the later hours. So there's a chance it can happen tonight. A good chance if you look at what we saw the last couple of days. But we certainly hope that this does not occur.
LEMON: Dan Simon reporting on the protests in Berkeley, California for us this evening. Thank you, Dan.
SIMON: You got it.
LEMON: Tavis Smiley has been watching the protests intensify all across this country over police shootings of African-American men. He is the host, of course, of "Tavis Smiley" on PBS and the author of "Death of a King: The Real Story of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Final Year."
I watch you all the time, Tavis. I've been wanting to get your perspective on this. President Obama gave an interview to BET today. Here's what he had to say about the protests.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Then attention spans move on, right? There's the next thing. There's some international crisis or there's something that happens here. And change doesn't really occur. And the value of peaceful protests, activism, organizing, it reminds the society this is not yet done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What's your reaction, Tavis? The protests we're seeing across the country to Eric Garner and the Darren Wilson decision. What the president just said.
TAVIS SMILEY, HOST, "TAVIS SMILEY" ON PBS: First of all, I appreciate and agree with much of what the president had to say. There were two or three things that sort of galled me today, quite frankly. Number one, when the president goes on to suggest in that conversation that change takes time, that we have to be patient.
Dr. King once said that change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability. You have to be deliberate about these things. And so for the president to suggest to black folk this is going to take time, we have to be patient, that things don't happen overnight, I get the point he was trying to make. And yet the truth is if he had been patient in 2008 he wouldn't be the president tonight. So that message of being patient as opposed to doing exactly what folk are doing right now I think rings hollow, number one.
Number two, the president goes on BET to, you know, once again some extent -- to some extent lecture black folk but goes on Colbert to sort -- you know, to do the jokey joke thing, I quite frankly don't fancy that. In the Oval Office the president has a bust of Dr. King. I'm glad it's there. But at the same time Dr. King once wrote a book called "Why We Can't Wait." And I would recommend to the president and all the rest of us that we read that book of what King was saying thus 50 years ago about why we can't wait.
And there -- in time, as you know, there are two dimensions to time. There's Chronos, the passage of time. And then there is Kairos, an appropriate right critical moment in time. This is a Kairos moment for this president and for all of us quite frankly and we can't miss this, Don. We've got to step into this --
LEMON: Tavis, I want to ask you this, because, you know, the children of Eric Garner were on tonight and they were smiling and -- are you saying the president can't be multidimensional? Because you mentioned Stephen Colbert and then you mentioned, you know, going on BET.
SMILEY: No.
LEMON: He can't be multidimensional at dealing with this situation?
SMILEY: No, what I'm saying is I'd like to know when this BET interview was scheduled. Most folk were unaware but it sort of came out of nowhere. It was mentioned in the listings. I don't know what the motivation was for doing that. What I'm suggesting is that the president, you know, can't have one message for us, to be calm, to be patient, that things happen over time, and then --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: What would you have him do, Tavis? Because you tweeted, you said blatant disrespect for black life on Obama's watch. What will it take for him to step into this moment hashtag Eric Garner? What would you have the president do?
SMILEY: When the president was running for president, when Senator Obama was running for president, and race became a critical issue in whether or not he was actually going to get the nomination, much less get to the White House, he took the time to give the most important major public policy address of his entire campaign at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia. And now what you're telling me is the best we can do is an interview here or there?
I just don't buy it, Don.
LEMON: He's also doing things, he's starting a commission.
SMILEY: Yes.
LEMON: He's been meeting with leaders from all over the country. So OK. I take you at what you just said. But I think the president's between a rock and a hard place when it comes to this particular issue.
SMILEY: Yes, I don't doubt -- let me be clear. This happened, that is to say, racism being the most intractable issue in this country, was the case before he ever became president. I understand that there's value in the symbolism of his being president. I'm just saying, as I've said so many times, that great presidents aren't born, they're made. They have to be pushed into their greatness.
And it may very well be, back to that Kairos moment, that this is the reason in part why at this critical juncture this man happens to be the president of the United States. I'm just saying step into your moment and provide the kind of moral leadership, not a one-off here or there on BET or Colbert but step into your moment and provide the kind of conversation, the kind of leadership, the kind of focus on a social justice agenda that would make sure, as Dr. King said 50 years ago, that we aren't still dealing with what he called the triple threat --
LEMON: Tavis.
SMILEY: -- of racism, poverty, and militarism.
LEMON: It sounds to -- listen, all right. You and I know each other, let's be honest.
SMILEY: Sure.
LEMON: It sounds like that you're being extremely hard on the president because this is not --
SMILEY: Oh, come on, Don. Don't start that nonsense again, Don.
LEMON: No, no. It's not. Listen. No, no. This is not easy.
SMILEY: It's nonsense. That's nonsense.
LEMON: It's not nonsense. I'm just telling -- I'm just being honest with you. As I sit here, we spent, what, maybe three or four minutes and you haven't said hardly anything positive about what the president is doing. Maybe he didn't do it properly in the past. Maybe he is stepping into his moment. I hear you saying that. But it sounds like a whole lot of complaining about the president of the United States.
SMILEY: Don, that's --
LEMON: You don't sit in that seat. You don't know the pressures that he's dealing with.
SMILEY: With all due --
LEMON: Go ahead. You can say whatever you want to me. That's why I asked the question. Answer me honestly.
SMILEY: And I will say it. I'll always be honest with you, my friend. As always, that's an easy way to get some points. That was a lay-up. Hurray for Don. You got a couple of points but frankly --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Tavis, that's insulting. That's not what I'm doing here. SMILEY: The bottom line is --
LEMON: I'm just being honest about what I'm hearing. Don't do that. Don't do that to me, Tavis.
SMILEY: I think --
LEMON: That's not what I'm doing.
SMILEY: I think what you just did was insulting to me. At the end of the day you asked me on your show, number one. You asked me a question, number two. I gave you my honest answer, number three. And then you want to critique my answer as being too harsh. That's -- you're entitled to that but don't invite me on, ask me a question, ask for an honest answer, and then try to jump at me.
LEMON: You can't tell me what questions to ask. I'm telling you what it sounds like. To anyone who's listening, you're doing a whole lot of complaining about the president.
SMILEY: That's your impression, Don.
LEMON: Who's in a very tough position. That's all I'm saying to you.
SMILEY: Don, where is it written that Don Lemon speaks for all of America? You just said to anyone listening. That's your perspective, my friend. You don't speak for all of America. You're wrong.
LEMON: I didn't say I speak for all of America. But it says that all of America, if you listen because --
SMILEY: You said -- you said --
LEMON: OK, Tavis.
SMILEY: You said to anyone listening.
LEMON: OK, Tavis.
SMILEY: You don't speak for the country.
LEMON: Neither do you.
SMILEY: I didn't say I did.
LEMON: OK. Yes. But anyway, let's move on.
SMILEY: Yes.
LEMON: All right. Finally, on a separate topic, let's talk about this. Mark Whitaker under fire for not including the alleged Cosby rape story in his authorized biography. Does that disappoint you? And do you have anything that you want to say about this story? Because I know that you know Bill Cosby.
SMILEY: I know Bill Cosby. I know Camille Cosby. I am praying for Camille and for the entire family. And that's all I have to say about it. God bless and help Camille and the family to deal with this. And this is a tough situation. And I wouldn't want to be in it. I feel sorry for those persons who have allegedly been victimized by Mr. Cosby. But this is a fight he's going to have to fight.
And quite frankly, with all due respect to the victims of these crimes, who ought to use every legal -- every legal means available to them to get the kind of justice that they deserve, at the same time this issue that we're talking about tonight where black men are under fire, it's open season on them, and you see not just black folk but good white folk, good Americans of conscience in the streets protesting all across the country, I don't want one issue to trump the other.
We can talk about both. But this is clearly an important issue for this democracy. For this democracy.
LEMON: Thank you, Tavis Smiley. Go in peace.
SMILEY: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: Thank you very much. Appreciate you.
SMILEY: My friend.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Was it a tragic accident? An unarmed black man in New York City shot dead by a police officer in a dark stairwell of an apartment building.
Up next I'm going to talk to the man's mother and his stepfather.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: New York City has been shaken by the death of another unarmed young black man at the hands of police. And the Brooklyn DA says he will present the case to a grand jury.
Twenty-eight-year-old Akai Gurley was shot and killed by a police officer inside a dark stairwell he in an apartment building. The NYPD calls the shooting an accident.
So joining me tonight in an exclusive interview are Sylvia Palmer, Akai Gurley's mother. His stepfather Kenneth Palmer and Kevin Powell, a family spokesman.
Thank you all for being here.
SYLVIA PALMER, MOTHER OF AKAI GURLEY: Thank you for having us.
LEMON: The funeral for Akai was just this Saturday.
S. PALMER: Yes.
LEMON: How are you even here -- how are you even standing? S. PALMER: I'm just trying to hang in there by the grace of God,
because it's not easy. I have to be there for my younger kids. And they're my inspiration right now. They're the one who's keeping me going.
LEMON: How is -- Kenneth, how is Akai's little brother doing? Because I understand that you helped him read a poem at Akai's service this weekend.
KENNETH PALMER, AKAI GURLEY'S STEPFATHER: Malachi is doing pretty fine. All the kids are broken up. They would have been here tonight, but they're still in mourning. So we have to respect their wishes also.
LEMON: How are you explaining this to them?
K. PALMER: It's tough.
SYLVIA PALMER, AKAI GURLEY'S MOTHER: It's hard. It's real hard.
K. PALMER: The way see it is that they love their brother and they know what has happened, but to deal with it is a totally different story because you know he called them on weekends when he got the chance, too. So it's really tough. Especially for Shawn and Akisha also because Akisha was his wingman, so to say. His younger -- well, the younger of his sisters, not the youngest but the younger of his sisters.
LEMON: Have you spoken or talked to Malachi about police before?
S. PALMER: No. But he sees what goes on in the media. And Malachi -- he says, when I ask him how he feels about his brother's death, he says it makes me hate police officers for what they did to my brother.
LEMON: I want you to listen to what Commissioner Bratton said after your son died. Then we'll talk about it.
S. PALMER: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BRATTON, NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: It appears that this may have in fact been an accidental discharge. The deceased was, if you will, not engaged in any activity other than trying to walk down the stairwell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: When you hear those words, walk down the stairwell, what's your reaction?
S. PALMER: My heart broke. Akai is a good, good family man. Very smart, very intelligent. He's a peacemaker. My child does not go out there and get in trouble. Instead of him getting in trouble, he'll make friends. And my heart broke that night when I heard that my child was murdered in cold blood by an inexperienced rookie police officer. It's -- no words can describe my heart, my feelings, and my pain. My heart is so empty, hurting. I'm just in tears all the time every time I think about the incident that night. My son didn't deserve to die like that. He's a good man.
LEMON: What would you like to see happen?
S. PALMER: Justice. I want justice for my son.
(CROSSTALK)
S. PALMER: I want the police officer fired. I want his badge taken away. And I want him to be punished for my son's -- no one deserved to die the way Akai died.
LEMON: The D.A. says he's going to put it in front of a grand jury. What do you think of that?
S. PALMER: That's exactly what I want to happen. I want this case to go before the grand jury. I need justice for my son.
LEMON: Do you have faith in that process, the grand jury process, looking at what happened in Ferguson, looking at what happened in New York?
S. PALMER: No, I have no faith at all in the judicial system whatever. But I'm just praying that God will help me get justice for my son.
LEMON: Go ahead, Kevin.
KEVIN POWELL, FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: You know, Don, we were in Ferguson together. And I did not think after being out there with you and folks out there that I'd come back home to New York and have to deal with this so quickly in New York City. I've been with this family for the last 10 days or so helping to put together this funeral, so he could have a dignified burial. And it's tremendously difficult to see a family go through this. I understand what Mrs. Palmer is saying because when you have the grand jury, no indictment in Ferguson, no indictment with the Eric Garner situation, you see all the protesters. You've been covering it every night here at CNN. There is outrage in this country. And it's not just black people. It's white people. It's Latino people. It's Asian people. It's people good conscience. All different types of people. And what we're saying, I believe, is what Attorney General Eric Schneiderman said for New York, our attorney general here, is that maybe we should consider reviewing how this is even done. You know, D.A. Thompson in Brooklyn is handling this case. But I do agree with Attorney General Schneiderman that we need to have special prosecutors around the country.
LEMON: It was one of the cover stories in the New York Times' today, how the process is set up to -- in favor of police officers.
(CROSSTALK)
POWELL: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK) POWELL: Because D.A.s have a very cozy relationship with local police.
LEMON: How do you go on, Sylvia?
S. PALMER: How do I go on? Prayer.
K. PALMER: Amen.
S. PALMER: Prayer.
K. PALMER: Amen. That's been keeping us.
S. PALMER: That's what's keeping us going right now. Our faith and trust in God.
LEMON: When you see the protesters out, even though it's not for Akai, I mean not specifically but it's for injustice in general.
S. PALMER: In general.
LEMON: Does that help?
S. PALMER: Yes, it has helped.
LEMON: Thank you.
K. PALMER: Thank you.
S. PALMER: You're welcome.
LEMON: Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Best to you.
Tonight, a Cleveland family's demanding that charges be filed against a police officer who shot and killed a 12-year-old boy who was holding a toy gun. That story is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The family of a 12-year-old Cleveland boy is demanding justice. Tamir Rice, who was holding a toy gun and was killed by a police officer, police say the officer did not realize the gun was a toy. The family wants changes brought against that -- charges, excuse me, brought against that police officer. I'm joined now by Pastor C. Jay Matthews who helped perform Tamir Rice's funeral. Thank you for joining us this evening, sir. You know, Tamir Rice's mother, Samaria, spoke today at a press conference in Cleveland, and here's what she said about her son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMARIA RICE, MOTHER OF TAMIR RICE: The community loved him. He was a helper at the school and at the rec. And you know, everybody just loved him. I'm actually looking for a conviction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: How's the family doing?
PASTOR C. JAY MATTHEWS, PERFORMED TAMIR RICE'S FUNERAL: The family's being courageous. They have strong faith, great love for one another, and a good support system around them.
LEMON: You know, his mother also said that she was threatened by officers and that Tamir's 14-year-old sister was, and this is her quote, tackled and handcuffed by officers after rushing to her brother's side. The Cleveland police, well, they aren't really commenting on that, on these allegations. Do you think that they were treated -- the family was treated unfairly?
MATTHEWS: Oh, I'm sure they were treated unfairly. Once the perimeter has been established, anybody approaching it will be accosted. And unfortunately, you had siblings trying to reach out to their brother, who did not know any police protocols, only just the trauma of the moment. And unfortunately, if what she says is true, and I believe it is true, they treated them as just anyone.
LEMON: Given what you have seen with Eric Garner, with what happened in Ferguson, those two decisions, do you worry that there won't be any charges here?
MATTHEWS: Oh, absolutely. Unfortunately, the culture within the law enforcement community toward African-Americans specifically in minorities is such that there's no reprisal, which leads to these kinds of acts and actions. If there's no fear of reprisal, then unfortunately there's no act that will ever go judged accordingly. And so there's no reason for any African-American male, and more specifically as we see the outpour across this country, to have any confidence in any of the systems that are set up to police the law enforcement people.
LEMON: I have to ask you this. If Tamir Rice had been a 12-year-old white kid, do you think he'd still be alive today?
MATTHEWS: I think so. Absolutely. I think unfortunately where he was suggested a set of protocols and norms that exist within our law enforcement community as it relates to the African-American community, and when the word went out that an African-American male had a gun, young Tamir was already dead.
LEMON: You believe that?
MATTHEWS: I believe that.
LEMON: Why is that?
MATTHEWS: My 61 years on this planet. The experiences, significant experiences, my own personal interaction with law enforcement, my father's interaction with law enforcement, as well as my son's, I believe it with all my heart. And data will show it to be true.
LEMON: What's your message? What has your message been to the church and the community? MATTHEWS: As the community is rising up in peaceful demonstrations and
as I've gotten calls from pastors from many different segments of our community, it's time for a new message. Yes, we want our officers to go home, but we want our children to come home also. And so if I believe that there's no reprisal for what I'll do, then I'll act differently. If we convict Officer Loehmann and send a different message and it goes up to the appellate court and it stands and ultimately reaches the Supreme Court and it stands, then we'll begin to send a new message that now, we've got to look at the philosophies and the cultures behind these actions and make real radical change.
LEMON: Pastor Matthews, thank you.
MATTHEWS: Thank you.
LEMON: A lot of celebrities fear taking a stand on hot-button issues. Nick Cannon is not one of them. He is here. He is here. He is joining me to share his thoughts on the chokehold protests around the country, and much, much more. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: More and more celebrities, athletes are taking a stand on Ferguson and on the chokehold death of Eric Garner. Nick Cannon has always been one to speak his mind, and we like that. He is a TV host, he's a comedian, he's the author of Roc and Roe's: 12 Days Of Christmas. I love this whole book. This one is going to go to my nephew. I'll get another one for my other nephew. Nick Cannon joins me now. Thank you. I can ask you anything, right?
NICK CANNON, ROC AND ROE'S: 12 DAYS OF CHRISTMAS AUTHOR: Come on, man. You can always ask me anything.
LEMON: What do you think of the message when you see the protests across the country? Because you were in Ferguson back in September, correct?
CANNON: Yeah, yeah. I went out there and visited some local community centers and just was trying to you know spread a positive message. You know what I mean? Inspire young black men. And I think even seeing you know all the marches and all the protests, it's a beautiful thing. Because like the civil rights movement, to see the people gather and want their voice to be heard and know that we live in a country where you have the opportunity to do this. I find it beautiful. I mean, because everybody wants to make this about race, but nobody's saying when you watch these marches, when you see these protests, it's everyone.
LEMON: I was asked by Wolf Blitzer on Friday night, he said is this the new sort of wave, incarnation of the civil rights movement?
CANNON: Right.
LEMON: What do you think?
CANNON: Man, that's a weighty question. Because people always want to say we've come so far, we have a black president. But clearly, there's still...
(CROSSTALK)
CANNON: Yeah. You guys went at it.
LEMON: Tavis and I are very friendly. But that's the way we talk around the kitchen table. We can disagree.
CANNON: And it's a very intense conversation. And it's a conversation that needs to be had because it's not over. And to see this generation step up and have that opportunity to have their voices be heard and to make a difference, I love it, man. And I love seeing people, seeing everyone come together in times of tragedy.
LEMON: You were in London when the Ferguson decision was announced.
CANNON: Yes. Yes.
LEMON: And you said you wished you were in Ferguson. Why?
CANNON: Yeah, you know why? Because I had been there, you know, a month earlier and had met some amazing people and know that that community represents power in a sense to where it's a lot of good people and so many people, but you know, when that passion comes over, you've got frustration, you know what I mean, where you want change. And even from the young people. They don't really know what to do to get it, but they know they're angry. You know, and to me I was just saying I wish I was there with the people. I don't know what I would do, but I knew being there on the front lines is where I really wanted to be.
LEMON: Your son's name is Moroccan, right?
CANNON: Yeah.
LEMON: Do you talk to them about all of this?
CANNON: Not yet. Not quite. A little too young. But I can't wait to have these conversations.
LEMON: How old are you?
CANNON: I'm 34.
LEMON: You're 34 going on 50. I mean, you're very wise. Seriously, you're very wise.
CANNON: Thank you, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: We did an event last year. We spoke off camera. But you're a very wise man. And I hate when someone says you're the next this or -- you're a mogul like Ryan Seacrest. Seriously.
CANNON: Well, thank you. Thank you, man. I always joke with Ryan like yeah, yeah, we do the same thing, but I'm more talented than you.
LEMON: Can you talk about -- because your comedic idol, a comedic idol of yours is Bill Cosby.
CANNON: Yes.
LEMON: OK. Here's what you said earlier this year. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CANNON: Who probably really showed me that you know, there are no boundaries and there's no right or wrong way to do it, just do it your way is probably one of the greatest, Bill Cosby. I mean, not only has he conquered so many mediums as an entertainer, as a businessman, as a philanthropist, as an educator, but he's made people laugh forever and ever and ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is hard for you. Your demeanor changed. Do you still feel the same way?
CANNON: Yeah, you know what? It's a sad situation for everyone involved. You know, for the women, for Dr. Cosby. It hurts my heart just to see anyone have to go through this. And you know at the end of the day I was always taught when it's something you that don't understand all you can do is pray. And I pray for everybody involved in this situation. I pray for Bill Cosby. I pray for the women. And you know...
LEMON: His wife.
CANNON: Yeah, his wife. Everyone, man. It's truly sad.
LEMON: Look, Patton Oswalt recently said this in an interview. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATTON OSWALT: So (BLEEP) awful. And what's even worse I think for comedians is a lot of us have known it for a long (BLEEP) time. It's a -- it was a very badly kept secret in the comedian world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Did you hear rumors about it as a comedian?
CANNON: You know what? You hear jokes. You hear things. I think there's even stuff that goes on -- just in Hollywood, in general, man. We hear so many rumors and so many things and parties in the Playboy Mansion and all that stuff. But you never know what to believe. And you don't even think of it because if it is, people take this world so lightly. And then when you see that there are victims involved, there are people who have been hurting for years, it makes you just reanalyze everything. LEMON: Here's the thing that I think many people may not get about
celebrity, right? Is that people say so many things and write so many things about you and a lot of them just aren't true.
CANNON: Yeah.
LEMON: But I mean, this, to have that many women come, that's a different story.
CANNON: Right. Right.
LEMON: That's why it's tough.
CANNON: I mean, people -- I definitely don't want to be up here and be one of those celebrities like oh, it's so hard being a celebrity.
(CROSSTALK)
CANNON: So difficult.
LEMON: You're so human.
CANNON: You know what you signed up for. And yeah, it comes with it. I mean, the interesting thing about celebrity is when it's high, it's super high. When it's low, it's super low.
LEMON: What would you tell Bill Cosby?
CANNON: Oh, man. I want to hear from him. I wouldn't tell him anything. I would just listen.
LEMON: When we come back, we'll talk about his latest project with his twins, Moroccan and Monroe.
CANNON: On a lighter note.
LEMON: On a lighter note. There it is. Nick Cannon right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back with me now the very talented and outspoken actor, host, comedian and now author of a children's book, Nick Cannon. Roc and Roe's: 12 Days Of Christmas, which is about your twins Moroccan and Monroe. You and Mariah called them Dim babies.
CANNON: Yeah.
LEMON: Now, it's Dem toddlers.
CANNON: Yeah, right.
LEMON: You've been busy. Tell us about this.
CANNON: This is an outstanding project I got to put together with the great people at Scholastic. I grew up with Scholastic books. And having the opportunity to infuse my family and our fun stories that we have and we're turning our kids into the new raggedy Ann and Andy.
LEMON: These kids are so cute, they are the cutest kids ever.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Look at these kids. This is your son's tough guy face?
CANNON: Yeah. He doesn't like to smile in pictures, so he makes the tough guy face. That's him beating on his chest.
LEMON: She's a little angel.
CANNON: And he's there to protect his sister.
LEMON: Did they work with you on this?
CANNON: They did, man. I got an opportunity to bring the illustrations home to them. And you know, they're very opinionated. My daughter's like my glasses don't look like that, daddy. So it was kind of cool to see them. And I think even as they grow, this will be something they can always see.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Did they make changes?
CANNON: They did. I take their opinions and I want them to be involved in the stories and stuff in the future as we do more Roc and Roe's adventures.
LEMON: Now, we have to get to this.
CANNON: Here you go.
LEMON: You see the picture with Mariah. You confirmed that you and Mariah are separated, right?
CANNON: You know what? It's one of those things where I never wanted to step out there and confirm or deny because it really wasn't anyone else's business. But obviously because of the media and being in the public eye you have to speak on things because people are curious. So one thing I like to say is yo, we're family and we're human. So we're dealing with this as a family and we'll forever be a family.
LEMON: Do you know -- I'm on Wendy Williams a lot.
CANNON: Yes, you are.
LEMON: She talks about you all the time.
CANNON: And I got love for Wendy. I feel like she -- I don't know why she continues to talk about me. She's a beautiful person. But I've never really -- I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It's not bad. It's Wendy.
CANNON: So I'm just supposed to accept it?
LEMON: Go on there and talk to her.
CANNON: I will go on there.
LEMON: She says it like she means it.
CANNON: I appreciate it when she says wonderful things and when she doesn't you know I just take it with a grain of salt.
LEMON: You're on TMZ every day with another woman.
CANNON: There you go.
LEMON: Who are you dating?
CANNON: I'm dating no one, man. Honestly. Being on TMZ every day would make it hard to date someone. But I'm not even ready for that right now. I'm trying to focus on my family and my children, and you know all the things that are right. But those are some tough hard-hitting questions.
LEMON: I'm going to lean back. I'm not going to lean in anymore. I've already had a little fight with Tavis. I don't want to have one with you tonight. What's your favorite holiday tradition?
CANNON: Favorite holiday tradition. Getting a chance to go to church, whether it is Christmas morning, Easter morning, but definitely Christmas morning. Those are always -- waking up super early. At my house, you couldn't open presents. You've got to go thank Jesus. It's his birthday. Then you go home and get the presents. So that's always been kind of cool. Midnight service sometimes. All those things have been wonderful.
LEMON: I love watching you. I love everything you do. I love and you Howard Stern together, the chemistry.
CANNON: He's back on AGT. We're excited about that.
LEMON: We have to run.
CANNON: Absolutely.
LEMON: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CANNON: Thank you.
LEMON: Have a great holiday season.
CANNON: You, too.
LEMON: Appreciate it. And say hello to your kids. CANNON: Absolutely.
LEMON: And to your wife. Oh, your ex-wife, or soon-to-be ex-wife. That's it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you for watching.
