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Cleveland Police Shooting; Failed Hostage Raid; Rolling Stone Changes Apology; Race Relations Worse

Aired December 08, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me here on this Monday.

We begin with breaking news right now. At least three people have lost their lives after a private jet crashed into this suburban neighborhood outside of Washington, D.C. I mean really the pictures just tell the story. We are told this jet crashed into this one home and set two other homes on fire. The remains, what you're looking at right now, this is Gaithersburg, Maryland, if you're familiar with this part of the country. I want you to listen to how one witness described the crash.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, at first I heard a big sputtering sound and usually you don't really hear anything from living over here. You see a lot of planes go by. So you only hear the normal ur-ur-ur, and then it would be gone. But this particular plane, you heard like a ur-ur-ur type of sound going over the houses and then there was like sputtering. By that time then (ph), me and my mom were concerned. So when we rushed over here, you see a plane hit the side of the house and then crashed right down there. And it just seemed like something - it was a big explosion. So it was like a boom! And by the time then the flames were just so high and then there was a big mushroom effect of smoke and it just bust into flames.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: My goodness. We are told all three victims were on board the plane. Authorities are searching for more victims inside the home now. And an FAA spokesperson says the jet was on its way to a nearby airport. As you can see, huge massive police presence there on the scene. Investigators there as well. As soon as we get updates on the scene, we'll bring them to you live here on CNN.

Now I want to get to the nationwide calls to reform police. Fourteen days now, 14 since the Michael Brown decision, five days since a grand jury did not indict the officer in the Eric Garner case. The protests against police violence persist nationwide. They were calm, mostly peaceful, but a few did turn ugly in Berkeley, California, with looting and five arrests.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CROWD: Don't shoot. Hands up. Don't shoot. Hands up. Don't shoot. Hands up. Don't shoot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As the protests grow, so does the list of people who demonstrators insist were wrongfully killed by police. Case in point, Cleveland, Ohio, this young man, Tamir Rice, 12 years of age when a Cleveland Police officer shot and killed him back on November 22nd. At the time this young man had been holding a toy gun. His family has now filed a wrongful death suit. They just held a news conference, but his mother is focusing on the criminal case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMARIA RICE, MOTHER OF 12-YEAR-OLD BOY KILLED BY POLICE: And I'm actually looking for a conviction. I really thought they was playing. Like joking around. But I seen the seriousness in their face and it scared me, because my child doesn't do things like that. He just -- I don't allow that type of toy in my house, around him, period.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know where he got that gun, that toy?

RICE: A friend. One of his little friends he played with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

And, Jeff Toobin, you know, we've talked about the Michael Brown case. We've talked about the Eric Garner case. Now we're really talking about this Tamir Rice case. And the biggest difference, as far as the viewers are following it is, the other two were grand juries. She's now filed this wrongful death lawsuit. Can you just explain the differences?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, there is also going to be a grand jury investigation in Cleveland as well to see if there are criminal charges. The main difference between the two legal proceedings are -

BALDWIN: Yes.

TOOBIN: A grand jury determines if there are going to be criminal charges against the officer who fired the shot or anyone else. It's not about money. It's only about a criminal case.

BALDWIN: OK.

TOOBIN: The wrongful death lawsuit is a civil case by Tamir's family against the Cleveland Police Department in an effort to be compensated for money. Jail is not part of that case.

Now, there is very likely to be similar civil cases in the Michael Brown case in Missouri -

BALDWIN: Got it.

TOOBIN: And the Eric Garner case in New York. But they just haven't moved along yet.

BALDWIN: Got it. Got it. We also know the federal government, that's a whole other layer of investigation as well, right?

TOOBIN: Correct.

BALDWIN: What about specifically we heard the mother, Tamir Rice's mother, saying police failed to perform CPR on this 12-year-old and that was a similar frustration from the Eric Garner family in Staten Island. Do you know what proper protocol is for police?

TOOBIN: Well, they're supposed to save people's lives if they can. And, obviously, I don't know what the circumstances were in Cleveland.

BALDWIN: Right.

TOOBIN: But the duty of an officer to exercise care doesn't end with a gunshot. It ends - you know, they are required to behave responsibly, behave reasonably at all times. Now the question here, of course, is going to be, was the shooting reasonable? That is going to be the core of any criminal or civil case.

BALDWIN: Here's one more question, because there was an entire article - this is something we talked about, whether or not special prosecutors should be called in on cases like this, police -

TOOBIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Officer involved deaths. Because there was an entire "New York Times" piece, the headline was, grand jury system with exceptions favors the police and fatalities. And they cite this example of a case in Charlotte, North Carolina, in which a young man was shot and killed and the local prosecutor recused himself, brought in the state AG. They bring in a different grand jury and ultimately this police officer in North Carolina was indicted. And I'm wondering if just with your years of expertise, if you think that it is time that it is mandatory that special prosecutors be brought in.

TOOBIN: It's really an idea that may - time have come, because I think people don't quite understand how closely police and prosecutors work together.

BALDWIN: Explain that to us.

TOOBIN: When I was an assistant U.S. attorney, I couldn't do anything by myself. I couldn't go out and investigate crimes. I needed partners in the FBI, the DEA. That's how federal prosecutors work. You have what's called a case agent. And you are peers. You are equals. And you work together every day to build cases. That's how prosecutors work. In New York City, the D.A.s, they work with the New York City Police.

That's a good thing. That's not a bad thing.

BALDWIN: Right.

TOOBIN: But when you have a situation of possible wrongdoing by the police, it creates an inherent conflict of interest. Now, sometimes the evidence surmounts that possible conflict -

BALDWIN: Uh-huh, and sometimes it doesn't.

TOOBIN: But you can see why people say it is just not something we should allow to have essentially partners investigating each other.

BALDWIN: Something I heard from protesters the other night here in New York, I've heard from family members of lost loved ones and just was curious your perspective.

TOOBIN: It's a growing issue all over the country -

BALDWIN: OK.

TOOBIN: Because people see the conflict.

BALDWIN: Jeff Toobin, thank you very much. We'll see you later this hour.

TOOBIN: See you later.

BALDWIN: Don't go too far, please.

TOOBIN: All right.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, inside this dramatic attempt to rescue an American hostage from al Qaeda. We are now learning the Navy SEAL operation disrupt a ransom deal. Those details are ahead.

Plus, the U.S. on high alert for backlash as the U.S. Senate gets ready to release a report on CIA torture. Should it go public? We'll debate that.

And, Greek life demanding an apology after "Rolling Stone" backs off its story of this alleged gang rape at the University of Virginia. Here what else these national fraternities want.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: For the first time we are hearing from the family of an American hostage killed in a failed rescue mission. According to this family, they never signed off on this operation with al Qaeda threatening to kill American photojournalist Luke Somers. President Obama gave the green light for a stealth mission to try to go in to save him and anyone else being held at this compound in Yemen.

But, unfortunately, something went horribly wrong. As the team of 40 special forces were approaching after some six miles of hiking, a noise, we're hearing from some, maybe just the barking of a dog that just totally gave them away. There was no fire fight. The two hostages died. But in a cruel and tragic twist, we're also now learning something the U.S. said it didn't know at the time, that the other hostage, South African teacher Pierre Korkie, was reportedly mere hours from being released on ransom negotiation by this separate entity, this aid group out of South Africa. Josh Rogin is our CNN political analyst and columnist at Bloomberg View. He joins me from Washington.

Josh, nice to see you.

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Likewise.

BALDWIN: So the U.S. - the U.S., the administration says they had no clue that Pierre Korkie was even there at this compound. But even if they did, and even if they knew this totally separate negotiation was underway to pay off some - I think it was $200,000, would the U.S. have gone in anyway?

ROGIN: It seems that the U.S. was not only unaware that there was a negotiation going on, but that South African hostage was to be released in a couple of hours. So the U.S. had a deadline. There was a video that said that these hostages would be killed within three days. And the U.S. military was working off that deadline. Had they known that a couple of hours delay might have made a difference for one of the hostages, then they would have had a decision to make. But they weren't in contact with the families, they weren't in contact with the South African government, it seems, and they weren't in contact with this group that was doing the negotiations. So they never had the opportunity to make that decision, and therefore we'll never know if this life could have been saved.

BALDWIN: I mean we know - we talked about this with many hostages, unfortunately, being killed, that the U.S. and other countries, such as South Africa, do not negotiate with terrorists, do not pay ransoms. But in addition to that, you know, American - U.S. administration, you know, frowns upon separate entities trying to pay off these terrorist, correct?

ROGIN: We've got - yes, exactly. We've got two problems. One is that, all of these families, the families of James Foley, Steven Sotloff and other hostages that have been killed by extremists have all complained that they haven't gotten cooperation from the Obama administration, they've been discouraged from pursuing information about their loved ones on their own, and they feel that they could have been helpful. But the U.S. has a very good reason to try to keep these operational details secret.

On the other hand, we have this dual policy where some countries pay for hostages and some countries don't. And for U.S. hostages, that's the worst of all worlds because there's an incentive to get hostages from western countries because you can sell most of them, but the U.S. hostages can never be sold and therefore they're taken and often then never released.

BALDWIN: You know, we've heard from multiple families who have been very, very angry at the administration for not giving them, you know, the warning that the U.S. would go in and try to rescue a loved one. Do you think, just with all of your sources and conversations you have, Josh Rogin, do you think families should be told or no? ROGIN: Their -- my view on this is that the families don't have to

know the exact details of raids, because that is very sensitive information, that places U.S. servicemen at risk. What I do think is that the FBI and the Obama administration could do a better job, not only keeping these families up to date on what they're doing generally, but also taking information from these families. But despite the warnings from the administration, many of these families are doing a lot to find out information about these hostages and they feel that that information is not accepted and not wanted by the Obama administration, by the military and by the FBI. So there should be more collaboration. They don't have to tell them exactly when the raid is going to occur, but they should be working with them more. It might help, who knows.

BALDWIN: Right. OK. Josh Rogin, thank you.

ROGIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, fraternities, sororities demanding now an apology over "Rolling Stone's" explosive article about this alleged gang rape on campus at the University of Virginia. But is the magazine making it clear what those discrepancies in this young woman's story are and how is this affecting young women or young men for that matter on grounds coming forward and saying they have been sexually assaulted?

Plus, as the Senate gets ready to release its report on torture, critics say it will put lives at risk, especially our men and women who are overseas serving this nation. We'll debate that as Marines go on high alert now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Now that "Rolling Stone" magazine is backing off its bombshell article alleging gang rape at a fraternity at the University of Virginia, fraternities and sororities at UVA, they want an apology. They want an apology from their university and the reinstatement of their social activities. Last month, the backstory, the university administration shut down all Greek operations in the wake of "Rolling Stone's" explosive reporting. As we led the show Friday with this news, "Rolling Stone" apologized for their word "discrepancies" in that particular article. They then revised their apology saying the mistakes are on "Rolling Stone," not on the victim.

Will Cadigan is joining me from Charlottesville. He's a UVA student and the co-chair of the Sexual Violence Prevention Coalition.

Will, welcome.

WILL CADIGAN, STUDENT, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Thank you for having me, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I mean I know you're in the thick of this. You've been doing advocacy work for four years. But just - not just the campus, your reaction, Will, to "Rolling Stone" backpedalling on this story.

CADIGAN: Well, sure. I think it shows a lot about sort of the media and how to handle questions like this. And I think it really, for me, you know, put a damper on any positive spin that we were all taking out of this issue. But I'm still committed to working for it and I think that a lot of our -- people on our grounds are still committed to working for it.

BALDWIN: So, you could say that this could set your organization's efforts to stop sex assault, to stop, you know, the reporting of it, stop it drastically to encourage victims to speak up. I mean explain how this would have, potentially this is my worry, this chilling effect moving forward.

CADIGAN: Well, sure. And I think right now, especially on grounds here where we're sort of - we're at a precipice. We're at a turning point. We can go in one of two directions. I think that we can respond to a lot of the recent developments in a positive way, that still affirms, to support survivors and keep moving forward with a lot of the good things that were put in place after this article initially came out, or we could sort of turn back into, you know, a culture of, for lack of a better term, apathy and a culture that doesn't believe and doesn't support survivors. And if survivors feel like they won't be believed or they won't be supported, then they're, frankly, not going to report. And anything we do institutionally will not have as great as effect as we want it to.

BALDWIN: Well, I hope it goes the first way that you outlined. And, I mean, I had the exact same thought. I mean a lot of good has come out of this. We know UVA has this now zero tolerance policy. They say, you know, no longer the status quo, no longer acceptable. But here's what - this is what I come back to, because I talked to Catherine Valentine with WUVA a couple of times and she brings up this great point every time we talk, which is, you know, lying cheating and stealing on ground of UVA, you know, you're guilty, you're out. But according to this dean in this interview, you know, if you admit, you say yes, you know, I committed sex assault, you can still walk among other students on grounds. You're not kicked out. And I come back to this question, will these individuals be forced to leave or is this acceptable behavior?

CADIGAN: Well, I -- to answer the last part of your question first, no it is not acceptable behavior. And I think that what we -- we're at a point right now where I think the vast majority of students on grounds are -- and everyone on grounds views this rightly so as abhorrent behavior. And so I think that really trying to get to a point where the community feels like it has the potential to actually follow through with these prosecutions is a very important point.

But I think sort of the adjudication process of the sexual misconduct board is something that really needs to be looked at, but I think that it needs be looked at as the complicated issue that it is and sort of removed from our existing honor system which itself is facing a lot of pressures. We've had some changes even since the time that I've been here. BALDWIN: Well, hold those administration official's feet to fire and

let's keep asking the tough questions and demand positive change. Will Cadigan, thank you so much, from the University of Virginia. I appreciate it. Please continue all this advocacy work. I think it's wonderful.

CADIGAN: Thank you very much, Brooke. Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up, question for you, are race relations in the United States better or worse under President Obama? There's a new poll that suggests the majority of Americans disagree with the president's opinion on that. We'll share that with you.

Plus, this was a one of a kind find, this full t-rex skeleton. Paleontologists were absolutely thrilled. And then something happened that not a single one of them expected.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Half past the however. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let me tell you about this new Bloomberg politics poll because it shows exactly how wide the racial divide is about the cases in Michael Brown and Eric Garner. So, here's the first number, 71 percent of African-Americans polled disagreed with the Ferguson grand jury compared to 15 percent of whites. In the Eric Garner case, 77 percent of blacks disagree with no indictment, compared to 31 percent of whites. And then there was this. When asked if race relations have improved under President Barack Obama, the first African-American president of our country, 53 percent said relations have gotten worse. That number includes whites and blacks together. You see the number, 36 percent believed race relations stayed the same, 9 percent say they've gotten better.

So, let me turn to our correspondent at the White House, Sunlen Serfaty.

And we know the president is speaking about this. I mean how is he addressing the numbers, the divide, the criticism?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN REPORTING: Well, Brooke, in part of what President Obama is doing is really reaching out to some groups who may be discouraged and frustrated and those groups that are outspoken about these two grand jury decisions. President Obama met at the White House here last month with civil rights leaders. And today he's speaking with BET Television. He gave an interview to them on Friday. It will air this evening. And White House officials say President Obama really wanted to reach out to young African-Americans who are frustrated and really send them a direct message. Here's a little of what President Obama had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's important to recognize, as painful as these incidents are, we can't equate what's happening now to what was happening 50 years ago. And if you talk to your parents, grandparents, uncles, they'll tell you that, you know, things are better. Not good in some cases, but better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And the White House says that President Obama really wanted to communicate especially to young African-Americans with this specific interview that their views are legitimate to raise, that they -- he wants them to express their views peacefully and, additionally, Brooke, that these are also issues that he himself takes very seriously.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: I'm listening to you. I'm wondering if they're like trimming the Christmas tree with the noise behind you. Sunlen, so bear with me here.

SERFATY: Some tree trimming, sorry.

BALDWIN: That's OK. What about - we know the president went to the hospital over the weekend. What - how's he doing? Issues with his throat. What did they find?

SERFATY: Well, the White House says that President Obama has been suffering for some weeks with acid reflux.