Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Obama Suffering from Acid Reflux; High Alert at U.S. Embassies for Torture Report Release; U.S. Government Seized T-Rex Fossil, Lawsuit Followed; North Korea Responds on Sony Hack

Aired December 08, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm listening to you. I'm wondering are they trimming the Christmas tree behind you.

(LAUGHTER)

What about, we know the president went to the hospital over the weekend. How is he doing? Issues with his throat. What did they find?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The White House says President Obama has been suffering for some weeks with acid reflux. He made a brief visit to the hospital this weekend on Saturday to get that checked out. He had a C.T. scan that came back normal. President Obama was asked how his throat is feeling today. He said I was fine. I was completely fine. That's all he had to say about it, Brooke. And White House officials say he's doing pretty well. But he's being treated for this acid reflux and they say it's been giving him a problem for the last few weeks.

BALDWIN: Doesn't sound like fun.

Sunlen Serfaty, thank you very much.

Marines on high alert around American embassies around the world. A report on the CIA's torture of detainees set for release tomorrow. Some people warn of dangerous situations once those details are released. We'll discuss coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Here's a question for you. What in the world is in this Senate report on post-9/11 interrogations that prompted the Pentagon to warn its commanders around the world that there might be trouble and to review base security? And let me take this a step farther. Why would the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry phone Intel Committee Chair Diane Feinstein and ask her to bear in mind the timing of the impending reports release. We have talked for years about kidnappings of terror suspects, brutal interrogations, Gitmo, extraordinary rendition, et cetera. So is there even a bombshell that is left in all of this? Well, perhaps there is. The report is due for imminent release.

Mike Baker is with me now, a former CIA operative. And with me here in New York is Jeff Toobin, our CNN senior legal analyst. Mike Baker, let me begin with you.

Your thoughts on this, and what kind of, if any, what kind of bombshell might be in this carefully worded report?

MIKE BAKER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE & CNN ANALYST: I don't think it's a bombshell in this report. The warnings that went out to our facilities overseas, military embassies and others overseas, in part, setting the table for releasing this summary. I don't believe it's innocently a bomb shell but I think they are being cautious. That's a smart thing to do.

Look, it's a very emotional subject. Everybody has a take on this. We've been debating this for years. My take is, frankly, this is as far away from unbiased objective investigation as you can possibly ask. What they did, five years and some $40 million ago, is that they decided here's a thesis. Our thesis is Bush is bad and torture, and that's awful now, let's write a report around it. So it's not an investigation where you start out, you interview everybody, you collect all your evidence and facts and create an objective finding. They created a finding that they believed in and wrote their report to match it.

BALDWIN: Jeff Toobin, you agree they had this thesis ahead of time?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I don't know. I haven't read it. I don't think this gentleman has read it, either. So it's a little premature to be denouncing a report that hasn't been made public.

Look, the question here is the intelligence community genuinely worried about what's, you know, the implications of this report --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: They are on high alert.

TOOBIN: Or are they simply trying to divert attention from their misdeeds, which will come out in this report. I don't know. It does seem to me --

(CROSSTALK)

BAKER: I would argue I don't know that the other gentleman --

(CROSSTALK)

BAKER: I don't know the other gentleman knows about the misdeeds coming out in this report. My point about this is -- again, one side of this argument, the left did very good job years ago in seizing this, the high ground on this. You either are talking and engaging in chat with the high-value detainee or the target you're dealing with or it's all torture. Nothing in between. They did a very good job of framing it

TOOBIN: You're talking about the left. You talked about John McCain, who talked about waterboarding being torture. I think it is a broad --

(CROSSTALK)

BAKER: No, I said one part of this.

TOOBIN: OK. But I don't think this is a purely partisan issue that, you know, left versus right. I think this is a very important chapter in American history, the treatment of the detainees post-9/11. A lot has been known. A lot -- I guess, based on this report, is not yet known. But it's an important chapter of American history. And unless there's an awfully, awfully good reason, it seems like the American public is entitled to know.

BALDWIN: Let me jump in, Jeff Toobin and Mike Baker, and play some sound. This is the late journalist, Christopher Kitchens, who did a story for "Vanity Fair".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Are you breathing?

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: One of you mentioned waterboarding a moment ago. One of the things people will bring up when it comes to this report is that so many innocent lives were taken on 9/11.

And, Jeff Toobin, do you think that, you know, should the public know the ins and the outs of what happened to fight this war on terror?

TOOBIN: I think what's been done in the name of the American people should almost always be public. Obviously, if you can point to specific facts that in specific negative implications, then you have to take a second look. But by and large, I think the rule should be full disclosure.

BALDWIN: What about the balance? You've been in the field, Mike, for years and years. The balance of, you know, security folks there on the ground and this right to know.

BAKER: Yeah. You got to find a point on the spectrum. We do this all the time. We have this calculation, this moving of the pendulum between privacy rights and liberties and then security. The president, at one point in time, said look that's a false choice, you don't have to give up one -- of course, you do. He came back around and said, yes, you do.

I understand why this is such an emotive issue but I have a number of problems with this particular way of approaching it. Look, the Senator, Feinstein, and some of the other Senators on the Intel Committee seem to be practicing selective memory. There's a well-worn path between Langley and Capitol Hill. It's not as if these folks were not briefed. I suspect and I know -- again, jumping ahead of this, before the report is released, but I suspect there's an element here where some people are trying to recreate or rewrite history in a sense to distance themselves from actions that now they feel a long time from 9/11 weren't appropriate.

TOOBIN: That's a good point. That, you know, should the Senate be shocked, shocked to discover things they were told about at the time. I hope that's part of the report. But I guess we'll see tomorrow.

BALDWIN: We'll see tomorrow, gentlemen.

Jeff Toobin, Mike Baker, thanks to both of you. We'll talk about it tomorrow, no doubt.

The find was nothing short of amazing, the bones of this full T-Rex found embedded in the side of a cliff. The find was shocking enough, but what happened after these paleontologists uncovered the skeleton shocked their intelligence even more.

And what did North Korea -- did they hack Sony Studios? We talked about this before -- in retaliation for one of its comedies. North Korea's bizarre response, in a word, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Paleontologists were thrilled when they discovered the most complete skeleton of T-Rex ever found. Here's the "but." It quickly turned into misery when the federal government swooped in to seize the fossil and accused the team of a criminal conspiracy. This week CNN Films delves into the dramatic story behind Sue, the 13th T-Rex skeleton, in a film called "Dinosaur 13."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody called me and said FBI has a crime scene tape around the site and have taken Sue. I hung up the phone and I went down to the institute. I don't know how many agents they had, 30-some people. It was insane.

I didn't even think about it. I grabbed the tape. I went to the specimen. That was my concern. I could just see these idiots start to pack up my dinosaur and take it away and ruin it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How dare they! How dare these people do this!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unconscionable. I can't imagine somebody being able to do that here in the United States of America, in a free country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In order to ensure this dinosaur could be carefully packed up, we helped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pretty clear they didn't know what they were doing. These people didn't know anything. I mean, most of these guys hardly go out in the field at all. What do they know about preparing a fossil or packing it or anything?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Larsons were trying to do a little bit negotiating. Put Sue under lock and key at our place to prevent damage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said, you just tell me and that fossil won't go anywhere. It's not like it's going to disappear in a brief case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That request was denied.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I mean, crime scene tape around a T-Rex discovery. Have you ever? The 10-year long dispute eventually went to trial, resulting in jail time for one of the paleontologists, and Sue was auctioned off for more than $8 million and is on display in Chicago.

Joining me now to talk about this fascinating story, Scott Foss, the senior paleontologists with the U.S. Bureau of Land Management.

Scott, welcome.

SCOTT FOSS, SENIOR PALEONTOLOGIST, U.S. BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT: Hi, Brooke. Nice to meet you.

BALDWIN: When you watch this film, two story lines diverge. You have the discovery of this T-Rex and then the fall out. Let me begin at the top with the discovery. Put this in perspective for all of us who love going to museums. How significant is this T-Rex discovery in all of history?

FOSS: As far as Tyrannosaurus go, this is one of the most amazing fossils ever found. So it's an amazing discovery. I think that starts to distract from other parts of the story too where we talk about how it ended up in a criminal trial. But in fact that criminal trial wasn't for the dinosaur.

BALDWIN: OK. You're getting ahead of me. I'm just trying to wrap my head around.

(LAUGHTER)

First, this crazy discovery. Then you watch this. This is South Dakota. I couldn't help but wonder, I guess, you know, in Googling lots of fossils are found in the West. But was finding this in South Dakota, how much of a shock was that?

FOSS: It's not so much a shock to find a dinosaur in South Dakota. There's northern South Dakota, western South Dakota, the Hell Creek Formation, and there's a lot of fossils are found there. So the finding of a fossil isn't so unusual. It's how complete that fossil was. It was really unprecedented. Just an amazing dinosaur.

BALDWIN: So here this was and this was federal land. And so I'm wondering where you, Scott, stand on this issue. Do you think paleontologists should be able and allowed to go into federal land to dig for these amazing discoveries?

FOSS: This fossil was found on a ranchers land. It was private land, but it was Indian Trust land, which got into a long, protracted case over the ownership of the dinosaur. Now, with the Bureau of Land Management, fossils that are found on public lands, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Forest Service lands, National Park Service lands, those fossils can only be collected with a permit. And then once someone collects that fossil, it has to go a public museum where it remains in trust for the American public. We're talking about different things here. But this fossil was on a rancher's land, but under an Indian Trust law, which --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That's what it was, which made it tricky. And then, here you are -- let's take this group -- and it's your first day at work with the federal government -- happens to be the day that Sue, this T- Rex, is confiscated. Do you think the raid went a tad too far?

FOSS: Well, I wasn't part of the investigation. My first day of work was May 14th, 1992. It's a day that -- you know, it's a big day in paleontology. I was told by my supervisor, check out the news tonight and, wow, what a day that was. So the federal government, though, was asked to step in. I've heard they found it, the government took it. Well, perhaps they took it and the government returned it to the owner, and that's a big part of the story that we don't always hear. There's different sides to the story.

BALDWIN: Well, I guess, though, ultimately, if some of these paleontologists had their way, they would have had it in South Dakota, and ultimately, it's in this big, beautiful museum in Chicago, right?

FOSS: That's correct. That's correct. There are a lot of opinions about where that dinosaur could have shown up or should have. And there is a happy ending that it is in a public museum. And the folks who found it, that's a sad story for them. And I think the "Dinosaur 13" really tells that part of the story very well, that they made an incredible discovery and they lost that discovery. And if you think of anyone who has made an incredible discovery and had it taken away, that part is real. I mean, I think it's easy for any of us to empathize with that. It came down to a case law and came down to administrative law and where this dinosaur went and who owned the dinosaur.

BALDWIN: And prison time. I've never heard of a story like this at all. It's called "Dinosaur 13."

Scott Foss, thank you so much for helping us understand some of the ins and outs of all of this.

"Dinosaur 13" is the film. It airs Thursday night right here on CNN, 9:00 eastern. Don't miss it. "Dinosaur 13."

Coming up, have you heard of this movie called "The Interview," a farce about two guys that go into North Korea to try to kill Kim Jong- Un. Sony Pictures is releasing the film. But Sony has been hacked. We told you about this. We're talking unreleased movies have been stolen. Next, hear now what North Korea has said when the finger has been pointing straight at them. And we're learning more about that failed hostage rescue attempt by

Navy SEALs. The family of the hostage did not sign off on the rescue attempt.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: With more than 80 percent of its people believed to be malnourished you would think North Korea has larger problems than a movie. Poking fun of its leader, Kim Jong-Un, the smallish young dictator, who spent millions of dollars on personal luxury items, according to the U.N. And the U.N. says those items include lots of top-of-the-line alcohol.

But here we are, lead story on Sunday, on North Korea's state-run TV broadcast, the anchor says, no, North Korea was not behind that hack at Sony Pictures. The studio is about to release a spoof about Kim Jong-Un and two fictional journalists who scored an interview with him. Here's the premise and here's the hook.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: I'm Agent Lacy with Central Intelligence Agency. You two will be in a room alone with Kim, and the CIA would love it if you could take him out.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Huh?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Take him out.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: For coffee, dinner?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: For kimchi?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: No, take him out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So they don't get American humor over there in North Korea.

In fact, even though the North insists it's not behind the hack of Sony that anchor spoke of the action as "righteous" and said it might have been the work of North Korea's "supporters." For its part, Sony isn't laughing at all. The sophisticated attack crashed computers, leaked employees personal information, including Social Security numbers.

Brian Stelter is our senior media correspondent and host of "Reliable Sources."

We know that Sony is investigating, the FBI is investigating. Why do they suspect North Korea?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: A lot of reasons. North Korea has been complaining, condemning this film for months. They are upset with the plot that involves the attempted assassination. They came out with a statement in June condemning it, calling it an act of war, a provocative act.

And it's also notable, in this leak, in this hack, several forthcoming Sony films leaked onto an illegal website. But "the interview" did not. That makes you wonder at the hacker's motivation.

This really was a devastating cyber attack for Sony. It's the kind of think that experts will be studying for years because it was so awful. It took down their computer systems. I have one senior executive calling this a terrorist attack. He said that for two reasons. One, because of how damaging it was and targeted it was, seemingly, for political reasons. Secondly, because of the way it brought the staff together. The entire staff lost computer access and e-mail access for a long time. There was a sense of unity there as a result.

BALDWIN: The notion -- can you imagine this happening at any major company and your Social Security numbers.

STELTER: One of the other executives said, tell your boss to tell his boss at Time Warner to spend more on I.T. One of the revelations, Sony was not doing enough to protect the personal, private information of their staffers.

BALDWIN: So on a lighter note, leave it to "Saturday Night Live" to have some fun. James Franco, Seth Rogan, roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SETH ROGEN, ACTOR: You won't believe this, but an hour ago, they released some of our private photos from our phones.

(LAUGHTER)

JAMES FRANCO, ACTOR: What? Oh, my god. Which photos?

ROGEN: All of them.

(LAUGHTER)

FRANCO: Like the one I took of you in your dressing room.

(LAUGHTER)

ROGEN: Yeah. Yeah. With the control-top pantyhose.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Social Security numbers, emails.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: OK. It's funny. We laughed. I'm laughing at this.

Again, just to reiterate this is a huge, huge deal for Sony. Damage is done.

STELTER: And it still is. More information keeps leaking out. Salaries and other information leaked out. And there's threats towards Sony employees. There's emails sent to them. However, Sony is undeterred. They are still promoting "The Interview." It will still premiere on Christmas Day. So I think Sony will have the last laugh.

BALDWIN: I know. At the end of the day, we're talking a lot about it on national TV, right? It makes me want to go see it.

STELTER: I'm definitely going to see it now, because I want to see if there's anything to be offended by.

BALDWIN: Right. Right.

STELTER: I guess some folks can't take a joke.

BALDWIN: Brian Stelter, thank you very much.

STELTER: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Now this.

We're at the top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.