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Don Lemon Tonight
Chokehold Protests in New York; New Terror Alert After Torture Report Release; No Reaction from Bill Cosby to Allegations; Bill Cosby Denies Allegations of Rape; American Couple Finally Home from Qatar; Interview with Matthew and Grace Huang
Aired December 09, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Breaking news, President Barack Obama speaks out on the CIA torture report, listen to what he said on Univision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We engaged in some brutal activity after 9/11.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Who knew and when did they know about the agency's so-called Enhanced Interrogation Techniques. And is all of this playing into the hands of terrorists?
Plus, in the wake of massive protests over police killings of black men, some people are asking, where is the president? Not in Ferguson, not on the front lines of protesters. But should he be? Is it his job to speak out on race or is President Obama getting a bum rap?
We've got a no hold's bar debate on that tonight.
Also, Bill Cosby staying silent in the face of more and more accusations of sexual abuse. You heard some of the women speaking out against him right here last night. Their stories are shocking. But do any of them have a case against him? How hard is it to prosecute a powerful celebrity?
Plus, an American couple in prison in the Middle East. Charged with starving their adopted daughter to death. Tonight they tell their incredible story of their fight for freedom and justice.
But I want to begin with breaking news now. Chokehold protests in the streets of New York City tonight.
CNN's Nick Valencia there for us.
Nick, I understand you're downtown. They're headed towards One Police Plaza, is that correct? NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, according to one of the
leaders in this demonstration, they started at Grand Central Terminal, and they're moving their way slowly toward New York Police Department headquarters.
Don, this is certainly one of the more intimate groups of demonstrators that we've seen in the last couple of days. But nevertheless, they are still walking in the middle of the street, they are shutting down traffic, sort of walking against traffic.
What we've seen is a very peaceful demonstration so far. They continue these chants on this sort -- I'll stop so you can listen.
Talking about taking back their streets, talking about accountability. What they say they want is police reform. They say it's not so much about race, this isn't a black or white thing, they say this is a systemic problem within the New York Police Department. For the police department's sake, they have allowed these demonstrators to fluidly move through the streets. Everything so far has been sort of calm.
But as you see here, Don, there's only about 40 or 50 people out in the streets so far. Flanked by police officers. And they are making their way slowly towards New York Police Department headquarters -- Don.
LEMON: Nick Valencia covering the story for us in New York.
Nick, thank you very much.
We want to turn now to the debate over President Obama and race.
Is the commander-in-chief taking the lead on racial justice in America? Should he be?
Joining me now to talk about this, CNN political commentator, Marc Lamont Hill, and Tara Setmayer, the contributor from the Blaze TV.
So thank you very much for joining us. Good to see both of you here. The president talked to BET about race, about the Eric Garner problem and Michael Brown case. It's putting the conversation really front and center. Let's listen and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The Eric Garner video are troubling. Even if they haven't had that same experience themselves. Even if they're not African-American or Latino.
I think there are a lot of good, well-meaning people. I think there are probably a lot of police officers who might have looked at that and said that is a tragedy what happened and we've got to figure out how to bring an end to these kinds of tragedies.
And the value of peaceful protests, activism, organizing, it reminds the society this is not yet done. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But do you agree with the president, Tara? Is he striking a new tone on racial issues?
TARA SETMAYER, CONTRIBUTOR, BLAZE TV: Well, it's very interesting, if you listen to his entire interview, there's a lot of double speak going on there. I think he's been trying to tread lightly on this issue. I don't think he particularly wants to have this conversation. He's avoided it for most part and most of his presidency. He's gotten a lot of criticism from black leaders in the community and some, you know, black politicians that he hasn't done enough.
Tavis Smiley and Cornell West have excoriated him for years that he hasn't done enough. But then on the other side of it, he -- you know, he quietly put things in there to say, well, there's this and then there's that. I mean I think that he has to be very careful. He is the president of the United States. That means everyone. He's not the black president of the United States, or a black American. As much as black folks may want him to be, he has to walk a fine line.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But black America is part of America.
SETMAYER: Well, that's true.
LEMON: Black America is part of America.
SETMAYER: But I'm saying -- but he cannot -- he has to be careful that he's not taking sides on something like this that can divide the country further. And I think at some point --
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But you're supposed to take a side.
SETMAYER: No, you're not. We live in the United States. You have to think about -- is what you're saying going to be more divisive or not.
HILL: So --
SETMAYER: And I think he's (INAUDIBLE)
HILL: So would it be inappropriate to take a side on gay marriage if you alienate homophobia? Would it be inappropriate to take a -- you get what I'm saying?
SETMAYER: No.
HILL: Presidents take moral positions all the time. And police brutality is a moral issue. The death of black men on the streets is a moral issue. He doesn't have to go out there and put every police officer in America on blast. That's my job to do. Right? To have a structural critique of law enforcement. But what he can say is Eric Garner dying in the street is wrong, Michael Brown dying in the street is wrong. And we need a systemic change. And I as president will have a --
(CROSSTALK)
SETMAYER: Right. Police brutality versus the race element of it. I think he's going to have a conversation about police brutality. Because there are plenty --
HILL: Without race?
SETMAYER: Yes. We can. There are plenty of police officers --
HILL: You don't think there's a connection between race and police brutality?
SETMAYER: I think that there is less of a connection between race and police brutality versus police officers that -- the bad apples who are just jerks and abuse their power. But there are a lot more police officers who do not do that.
HILL: But that's not the issue.
SETMAYER: That's more important, I think.
HILL: It's not actually more important than black people dying in the street. We should be focusing --
SETMAYER: But they're not dying in the streets from police officers shooting them. I mean, there's --
HILL: They are actually.
SETMAYER: No. They're dying --
HILL: They actually are.
SETMAYER: But, Marc, they're dying -- more blacks are dying in the streets because they're killing each other.
HILL: OK.
LEMON: That is true.
HILL: They also die from diabetes and cancer and HIV.
SETMAYER: That's true.
HILL: But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about police --
SETMAYER: So that's why we need to have -- that's why we need to have a balanced debate about this because it's not necessarily about race.
HILL: No, it's -- no, it is about race. If black people are dying in the streets and white people aren't, it's a race issue. If black people are disproportionately dying in the streets it's a race issue.
SETMAYER: But they're not disproportionately --
LEMON: OK.
SETMAYER: -- dying in the streets, from the police shootings.
LEMON: OK. Let's get back to the point.
HILL: Yes, there are. There are studies that show this.
SETMAYER: No, they're not.
LEMON: All right. So --
HILL: A study came out in 2014 that showed this.
LEMON: So this goes beyond just -- we're talking about police brutality. This goes -- and you mentioned Tavis Smiley, when we talked about this. Cornell West. We had both of them on. As a matter of fact, Tavis was on last night. Before he came on, here's what he tweeted. He said, "Blatant disrespect for black life on Obama's watch. What will it take for him to step into this moment?"
And so he and I had a heated debate last night over President Obama. His handling of the grand jury, Michael Brown's case, on and on. It was very heated. Listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAVIS SMILEY, HOST, "TAVIS SMILEY" ON PBS: The president goes on BET to, you know, once again some extent -- to some extent lecture black folk but goes on Colbert to sort -- you know, to do the jokey joke thing, and I quite frankly don't fancy that.
I'm just saying, step into your moment and provide the kind of moral leadership, not a one off here and there on BET or Colbert. But step into your moment. And provide the kind of conversation, the kind of leadership, the kind of focus on a social justice agenda.
LEMON: It sounds like that you're being extremely hard on the president because this is not --
SMILEY: Oh, come on, Don. Don't start that nonsense again, Don.
LEMON: No, no. It's not. Listen. No, no. This is not easy.
SMILEY: It's nonsense. That's nonsense.
LEMON: It's not nonsense. I'm just telling -- I'm just being honest with you. As I sit here, we spent, what, maybe three or four minutes and you haven't said hardly anything positive about what the president is doing. Maybe he didn't do it properly in the past. Maybe he is stepping into his moment. I hear you saying that. But it sounds like a whole lot of complaining about the president of the United States.
SMILEY: Don, that's --
LEMON: You don't sit in that seat. You don't know the pressures that he's dealing with.
SMILEY: With all due --
LEMON: Go ahead. You can say whatever you want to me. That's why I asked the question. Answer me honestly. Go ahead.
SMILEY: And I will say it. I'll always be honest with you, my friend.
LEMON: Yes.
SMILEY: As always, that's an easy way to get some Washington points. That was a lay-up. Hurray for Don. You got a couple of points for playing to a particular audience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. I don't know who I'm playing to there because --
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: You know, white people.
LEMON: Come on.
HILL: Why you didn't?
LEMON: Yes. Maybe I did.
SETMAYER: You know what?
HILL: Of course you did.
SETMAYER: I'm so sick and tired of that --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I thought what he said that I was playing to the White House. I was like, there are plenty of people in Washington the president will speak to. He's not coming on Don Lemon so I thought he was talking about that. But --
HILL: But I think that's part of it, too. I mean, I do think -- I do think that there is a space and a need for legitimate principled critique of President Obama. And sometimes when that principled critique comes, other people say, you're being too hard on the president. You don't have a nice thing to say about him. I don't think our job is to be nice. I think our job is to question him and challenge him. And I think the president's position on race over the last six years have been problematic at best.
LEMON: Right. But he said stepping into the moment.
HILL: Yes.
LEMON: When someone says that, I want to hear concrete ideas. I want to hear what you think from the president. What should the president be doing? I think Tavis -- anyone else, including myself, has every right to constructively criticize the president. But don't you think he's stepping into the moment now? Don't you think that many times we put --
HILL: No. No.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No. No. Hang on. Don't you think many times we have too high of an expectation of what he can do? And he talked about it in the BET interview. He says, I cannot look like -- it is my Justice Department doing these investigations, I cannot look like I'm putting my thumb on the scales of justice because it might affect the actual outcome of the investigation.
HILL: I think that's reasonable. But I think there's a bigger question about the president stepping into the moment. I don't think the president has. I disagree with Tavis on this one point. I don't think the BET interview is an example --
LEMON: Right.
HILL: -- of him not stepping into the moment. But him saying that racism is a fundamental, deeply entrenched problem in America is like saying the sky is blue and the grass is green.
LEMON: Right. Absolutely right.
HILL: Great job, Mr. President. But now let's move forward and have a real conversation about how we can change that on a policy front. And he hasn't done that. And lastly, what the president has done is use this really problematic, intellectually impoverished language of equivalency when he talks about race.
In Philadelphia he says well, black people feel like this and white people feel like that. In Ferguson, cops are angry, and police are angry, as if there are opposite sides of the same coin.
LEMON: But that's what I said. I wrote this morning for my editorial that he's walking a racial tight rope.
HILL: Yes.
LEMON: Without a net, really.
HILL: Yes. And you can't do that.
LEMON: Right. Because --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: You can't do that.
SETMAYER: Well, he doesn't have a choice. But in -- that's part of the problem with being president of the United States, that's the challenge. Not really a problem, but that's the challenge here. But what I find interesting about this discussion is that, you know, there is absolutely zero self-reflection, 50/50, you know, I don't think this is a national -- the police brutality aspect of this isn't necessarily a nationalized issue.
I think it's a community issue and it should be addressed from a community perspective. And you don't want the federal government coming in and taking over local police departments and local policing, and having one fell swoop of every -- that's what's going to happen.
HILL: Would you support defunding law enforcement agencies that don't comply with basic rules around protecting people?
LEMON: And that's what the president said.
(CROSSTALK)
SETMAYER: I think that that's something that can be looked art. When you --
HILL: That's a federal response.
LEMON: OK.
SETMAYER: But we need to be careful, though, with federal responses.
LEMON: Right.
SETMAYER: There are cookie cutter things when it comes to policing particularly.
LEMON: That's the last -- that's the last world because I want to move on.
SETMAYER: It's not a necessarily good thing.
LEMON: Just real quickly, do you have a problem with the president going on Colbert?
HILL: No.
SETMAYER: I think he needs -- enough is enough with that. He seems to enjoy that more than being president.
HILL: And -- see?
LEMON: That was like --
HILL: And you were doing so good.
SETMAYER: No.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: You really think -- I mean, come on. SETMAYER: I mean, come on, there are serious issues going on in the
world and he's running around cracking jokes on Colbert. I just think they need to have a little bit more seriousness.
LEMON: I had all of Eric Garner's kids, I have four of his kids here last night. Their father just died. They were laughing and smiling with me. People can be nuanced. You're not just sad all the time. You're not just serious all the time.
SETMAYER: That's true but --
HILL: You bet.
LEMON: You have to reach different audiences.
SETMAYER: I hear you.
LEMON: I -- OK.
SETMAYER: But he's done it a little bit too much. And I think that they're doing it as a PR thing --
LEMON: OK.
SETMAYER: -- because they want people to feel better. But I think they need to be --
HILL: A president doing PR? Oh, my god.
LEMON: Right.
SETMAYER: No, but there needs to be a little more seriousness when it comes to these things. I actually agree with Tavis that the juxtaposition of it wasn't -- I don't think was appropriate.
LEMON: Let's talk about what's happening, what we're seeing playing out on our screen right now as we look -- these students and people are marching, young people mostly, of all ethnicities, marching all over the country when it comes to, you know, the response of the NYPD chokehold death and the decision in Ferguson.
Students marched in Boston earlier today, blocking traffic. It's been 123 days really since Michael Brown was shot. Almost a week since the grand jury decision on Garner was released.
Marc, do you think that these protests are going to continue? Is this going to be a tipping point one way or the other?
HILL: I hope it will. And I think they will. These young people are fearless. These young people are courageous. They have an intellectual and moral and political vision that I haven't seen from this generation organized on the ground up until this point.
I'm excited and inspired by it. And I think the key here, though, is to not just march, not just to shut things down. It's to link it to a policy agenda. We want community-based policing. SETMAYER: Well, I would hope that's the case. And I think you can
have it open-ended, that it's to what end. If you see policy prescriptions that come out of it, well, then I guess they're doing a good thing as long as they do not go violent.
LEMON: Tara, Marc, thank you.
HILL: It's a pleasure.
SETMAYER: Always.
LEMON: Appreciate it.
When we come right back, shocking details from the CIA torture report. President Obama calls the agency's post-9/11 tactics brutal. But is all of this playing into the hands of terrorists?
Plus you heard Bill Cosby's accusers right here last night. Do they have a legal case against him? I'm going to ask my expert.
And an American couple imprisoned in the Middle East falsely accused of starving their daughter to death. How they fought for their freedom. They're here with me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The Senate's explosive CIA torture report is full of shocking details. Mock executions, sleep deprivation, and one occasion in which frigid temperatures apparently led to the death of a chained half-naked detainee.
Now thousands of Marines at U.S. diplomatic posts and military bases around the world are on high alert or on alert amid fears of graphic details of how the detainees were treated could spark a violent backlash.
Joining me now is Michael Smerconish, CNN political commentator and host of CNN's "SMERCONISH."
OK, let's get right to it, Michael, because the torture was brutal, detainees were waterboarded, and others were force-fed rectally. This Senate report on U.S. interrogation tactics says it didn't even work, it didn't even produce intelligence that saved any lives. Now both the CIA and Republicans on the committee today strongly disagree with these assessments.
Do you believe that these tactics were needed?
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, "SMERCONISH": Well, I think there are two sides to this. And I think tomorrow, for example, in the "Washington Post," you're going to read from John McLaughlin, who is the acting director of the CIA in 2004 and was the deputy director for a four-year time period at the Critical Sequence, and he will make the case that indeed they did work.
Jose Rodriguez was in charge of the harsh interrogation methods. He's been a frequent guest on my radio program. He makes a pretty compelling argument, I think, that indeed they did provide actionable intelligence.
It's not pretty. This is what it looks like when sausage is made, but I'm willing to listen to both sides to this and not to write off the tactics that were utilized.
LEMON: You sound a bit like John McCain. I don't know if you heard his response. He's saying, listen, it's tough, but the American public should know.
SMERCONISH: I think I'd go a step further than John McCain. I mean, I say to myself, what if it were September 10th, and what if there were actionable intelligence, someone possessed information that there was a catastrophe coming to the United States the following day. Who among us would say, stop, after you can't peacefully coerce the information from them?
I can tell you, Don, I would be saying any means necessary, whatever it takes to avert a September 11th-like activity, you've got to do it.
LEMON: OK, Michael, President Obama had an interview with Univision tonight. And he had this to say about releasing the report to the public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We've taken precautionary measures in our embassies and around the world. There's never a perfect time to release a report like this. But it was important for us, I think, to recognize that part of what sets us apart is when we do something wrong, we acknowledge it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So do you think that, number one, the report should have been released at this point because some people are concerned about the timing. But you don't see these practices as mistakes.
SMERCONISH: I think there were plenty of mistakes made. I spent the entire afternoon getting through as much of the 500 pages as I possibly could do. But I -- look, I find it difficult to believe that there was this cell within the CIA of masochists who saw September 11th as their opportunity to repurpose the agency. I'm inclined to believe these are good people thrown into an untenable situation for which there was no blueprint. They had no experience. But they were the only game in town.
And I also say, Don, I don't think they would have used these methods unless they really believed that they were working. I mean, what else would be the justification for doing so? I can't find one.
LEMON: The brutality, Michael, is shocking. It was all information kept from Congress. The Bush White House, even President George W. Bush's own secretary of state talked about that.
Let's listen to Dianne Feinstein. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D-CA), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIRWOMAN: There are CIA records stating that Colin Powell wasn't told about the program at first because there were concerns that, and I quote, "Powell would blow his stack if he were briefed."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Shouldn't people at the top know what's going on? I mean, how can they be left in the dark, Michael?
SMERCONISH: Don, I don't think they wanted to be in the loop on this. In reading the report today, one of the lines that jumped off the page at me was a line that said that President Bush specifically asked not to be made aware of the locations of the so-called dark sides. And the justification that he offered is that he didn't want to inadvertently give up that information.
And when I read it, I said to myself, well, how convenient. I'm sure they all wanted to stay as far removed as possible. Some described this as a rogue operation. I think it was, this is pure speculation on my part, but I think it was rogue by design. That's some nasty stuff needed to take place in the aftermath of September 11th. People at the top, frankly, didn't want to be aware of the specifics.
LEMON: Interesting. You know, this report also named some of the interrogators. Do you think that their names should have been kept private or does the public really have a right to know?
SMERCONISH: I was really surprised. That was something that took me aback that I tweeted about today because I expected to see a whole host of redactions. And there were some. I think only about 15 percent of the report. But man, there were names in that report. There were names that I recognized in that report. There are names of individuals that come on this network and offer commentary.
LEMON: Right.
SMERCONISH: And I am fearful for them. I'm very worried about those individuals. And yes, I am questioning why that needed to be the case.
LEMON: Michael Smerconish, thank you. We'll be watching this weekend.
SMERCONISH: Thank you.
LEMON: Coming up, Bill Cosby has not responded to six women you saw here last night, accusing him of sexual abuse. So what action can the accusers take now? And does Cosby need to speak out? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: No reaction today from Bill Cosby to the mounting allegations of sexual assault. Last night right here, six women accused the comic legend of that.
So where does it all go from here? For Cosby? Or his accusers as a matter of fact?
Joining me is Lisa Bloom, legal analyst at Avvo.com and founder of the Bloom Firm. And Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst.
Good evening to both of you. You know, my colleague Alisyn Camerota and I spoke to a number of Bill Cosby accusers yesterday. And I want to play part of that interview and then we'll talk about it. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: How many of you, show of hands, have tried to get money out of Bill Cosby? None of you. How many of you would ever take money from Bill Cosby?
LEMON: Interesting.
CAMEROTA: People claim that they are in it for money. They've never tried to get money from him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He gave me 20 bucks to call a cab for me. And gave me 20 bucks for the cab.
CAMEROTA: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To me, it would be a form of contempt from him.
LEMON: And this isn't about -- it's not about sex, it's about power.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a predator. He goes after women.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Lisa, you know, they say they don't want money from him. But do they have any legal recourse at this point?
LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVVO.COM: Well, they only have legal recourse in California, if they were sexually assaulted under the age of 18. If that's the case, they can go to the police. The police can take a report at any age, and then they have one year to prosecute. That's California law. And you can bring a civil case for child sexual abuse within three years of the time that you connect the dots between the abuse and the injury.
And so one of Bill Cosby's accusers has done just that, she's brought a civil case 40 years later. We'll see how that shakes out in the court system.
LEMON: Does he have any legal recourse, Jeffrey?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: He? I -- (LAUGHTER)
If I were him, I'd stay away from every courtroom I could possibly go to. I mean, you know, I don't think he is going to -- you know, the idea is he could sue some of these women for defamation. I mean, forget it. He's not going to do that. I think he's got no choice but to continue what he's doing now, which is saying nothing because if he responds to one woman, he's got to respond to 15. And there's no way he's going to address each of their allegations individually. So I think he's just got to brazen it out. And be the discredited figure that he is.
LEMON: Because if he responds to one, he opens a Pandora's box.
Lisa, I want to ask you this, though. You know, we know that many of these women have lawyered up. A case in point, your mother, Gloria Allred, is representing a few of the alleged victims. If the statute of limitations is over, what can they really accomplish? I know part of your mom's lawsuit is that they remove or, you know, the statute of limitations, or they forgo it in some way. But what can happen if the statute of limitations has run out?
BLOOM: Well, there is one other alternative. And Jeffrey mentioned defamation. Cosby could sue for defamation. His lawyers have threatened that a number of times, but it's never happened. Those accusers who Cosby has called liars now have brand new fresh claims against him for defamation. If they want to go to court and say, truth is an absolute defense as it always is in a defamation case.
He's defamed me by calling me a lawyer. His attorney has defamed me by calling me a liar. I know that Janice Dickinson, for example, has been called a liar by them. And others have as well. So they could bring claims for defamation. But the bigger picture is that probably most of these women do have time barred claims. I don't speak for my mother. We have separate law firms. She's more than capable of speaking for herself.
LEMON: Yes, she is.
BLOOM: But I think what most of the accusers want is an apology. And they want to be able to speak out publicly. They want to get out from under gag orders. Gag orders are very destructive to rape victims.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Go ahead, Jeffrey.
TOOBIN: Well, it's just -- I mean.
BLOOM: You know, they should be able to talk about what happened in their lives.
TOOBIN: You know, I was very struck by your interview last night. In all these women saying, oh, I wouldn't take money.
LEMON: Why get a lawyer? Is that where you're going? TOOBIN: You know what, no, it's like, what's so terrible about suing
someone if they do something horrible to you? I mean, why -- you know, if someone I knew or loved was assaulted by Bill Cosby, I'd want to take him for every last dime he has. So this idea that there is something noble, or to put it a different way, something seedy about trying to be compensated when someone has done something horrible to you, I just think that's, that's a kind of form of argument, you know, that I don't buy.
LEMON: Well, I thought the same thing as it was just going on.
That's all the system gives them at this point.
LEMON: if it was -- listen, again, these are all claims, right? And Bill Cosby has denied those claims. But if the claims are true, Jeffrey was thinking the same thing, I wouldn't think any less of anyone who was trying to get compensation for these women, if they were trying to get compensation. And that's what it speaks to the next sound bite that we -- that we have here. Listen to this and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATTI "P.J." MASTEN, ACCUSES BILL COSBY OF RAPE: We suffered...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
MASTEN: Hundreds -- collectively, hundreds of years of horrible intestinal, emotional strife because of what this man put all of us through.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's right.
MATSEN: And the hundreds that haven't come forward yet. I want him to suffer, suffer like we've all suffered all these years. You can ask any of these women, how were your relationships? How were your marriages? How were your jobs? How was your psyche?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That's a very compelling. I mean, if it ever got to a court of law that would be very compelling. Lisa, what's your reaction?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, that would be part of their damages in a civil case. Look, I think we can all agree that real justice for someone who is a rapist would be going to prison, especially for a serial rapist. And the real problem here in my view is, the statute of limitations, there should not be a statute of limitations for rape. Many years later, if a woman gets healthy, she gets strong, she's able to come forward and speak out, she should be entitled to her day in court. Yes, it's more difficult to prove 10 years, 20 years, 30 years later. But let her try. Let her have her day in court.
TOOBIN: I --
BLOOM: If we as a culture gonna take rape seriously.
LEMON: tells us Jeffrey.
TOOBIN: I disagree with that. I think the statute of limitations exists to protect the innocent. And, the idea that you can be hauled into court, 30 years later and have a trial about like, where were you on the night of September 3rd, 1980? I mean, who the heck knows where anybody was on September 3rd, 1980. Look, I think, you know, I don't mean to defend rapists or defend Bill Cosby if he's guilty. But, but the idea that there should be no statute of limitations seems to me too far to...
LEMON: And speaking of wanting --
BLOOM: But she still has to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.
LEMON: Speaking of wanting someone to suffer, right? You've heard one of the ladies say that. Listen to this next sound bite. Because, many believe the suffering is now. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOAN TARSHIS, ACCUSES BILL COSBY OF RAPE: What I want to happen to Bill Cosby is happening.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: And what is that?
TARSHIS: To him for him to lose face with the public. I -- I owe it -- I had said that I'd lost my anger towards the man, and the resentment towards the man, but I wonder if that's really because of what's happening to him now. Because this is what I dreamt, this is what I dreamt of for years.
MASTEN: They call it karma. They call that karma.
VICTORIA VALENTINO, FORMER PLAYMATE AND ACCUSES BILL COSBY OF RAPE: That's right.
BARBARA BOWMAN, ARTIST AND ACCUSES BILL COSBY OF RAPE: We're being restored, lives are being restored.
MASTEN: We're being validated. For the first time, we're validated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Lisa, you said clearly, you know, justice or punishment for anyone who is guilty of rape would be going to prison. But if you're someone who is in the public eye, and who has as high stature and respect and revered as Bill Cosby to have this, isn't this a fate worse than prison or death?
BLOOM: No, it's not worse than prison. Still being a multimillionaire, being surrounded by a life of luxury, no, it's it's not. You know, some of these women did go to the police at the time and were discouraged, either by lawyers, agents, managers, those people, you know, shame on them. But this is a very common story for women, when it's not involved with a celebrity. Many people tell women, don't go to the police in a rape case. And so, this is the result you know, women never forget about being raped, 40 years later, it's still with them. Hopefully, many can move on and still have productive lives, but I think these women tell very compelling stories.
LEMON: Yeah, Jeffrey...
TOOBIN: Yeah.
LEMON: Because you need a point, but I want to put this in here, do you do that?
TOOBIN: His TV projects were canceled, universities cut ties with him. We've seen many celebrities from, you know -- back in the day coming out and saying, we didn't know, you know, this was happening and there's sort of backing away from him. So, on to the point about being a fate worse than prison or death, you say no?
TOOBIN: Don, you've obviously never been in an American prison.
LEMON: No, no. I'm not speaking about army.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And that's just a phrase, you know, stop this speaking for it.
TOOBIN: The idea that, you know, people saying mean things about you on twitter isn't in any way comparable to going to an American prison, I mean, Lisa's right. If he is guilty of rape, every day he has been free is a disgrace over these past decades. That's what he deserves if he's guilty. He deserves to be in prison. Sure, it's unpleasant to have people say bad things. He's had some dates canceled. But, you know, he's 77 years old. He's not gonna be performing that much longer anyway. To say, this fate is at all deserving of -- if he's guilty of these huge number of crimes is, is really, really off base here.
LEMON: Yeah, and you understand that's just an expression that I'm using.
TOOBIN: I know.
LEMON: OK. I'm not saying you're lying, I'm just saying that...
TOOBIN: I don't say about that.
LEMON: OK, good. I'm glad you know that. How difficult though is it, I want to get to that to prosecute someone like Bill Cosby, the prosecutor celebrity, Lisa, quick word?
BLOOM: It's very difficult, because they have all the money and the resources in the world, they're gonna put the victim through the wringer, this is why women are discouraged and they shouldn't be. I wanted them to know they should go to the police, they should, frankly, get a lawyer and go to the police. They shouldn't have to tell their story over and over and over again because of the defense is gonna look for inconsistencies. So they should first really get their story together with the help of the lawyer, so they so they can tell it in a cogent way. You know, rape victims are shocked, they're horrified. Most of them are the last thing they want to do is go to the police and tell their story. But of course, it's what they should do. By going up against a celebrity, it's very difficult, it's why people get lawyers like Gloria Allred or like me, because they want to equal the playing field.
TOOBIN: And also, they should do it as soon as possible. I know that's very difficult because, the closer to the event, the more traumatized victims are. But, you know unfortunately, doing it 10, 20, 30 years later, it's just the legal system is not set up to deal with those sort of late discoveries even if they are true.
BLOOM: But it can be done.
LEMON: But we have...
BLOOM: I've brought those cases.
LEMON: But we have to remember though, these are different times. And back then...
TOOBIN: That's true.
LEMON: It was -- those were different times, Bill Cosby, a huge celebrity. Many people were intimidated by him, as you heard from the ladies there.
Thank you very much. Appreciate that.
California couple convicted and imprisoned in the Middle East in the death of their child, freed tonight. Matthew and Grace Huang, they'll talk to me about their ordeal in an exclusive primetime interview, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Matthew and Grace Huang are Los Angeles couple who have been living a nightmare. They've just returned to the U.S. after being convicted in the death of their adopted daughter and spending nearly a year in prison in Qatar. CNN's Stephanie Elam has her story tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: For Matthew and Grace Wong, the two-year ordeal is finally over.
MATTHEW HUANG, CONVICTED FOR THE DEATH OF AFRICAN-BORN DAUGHTER: The situation this past two years has been extremely difficult. But, we -- it's taught us a lot about patience and trusting God.
ELAM: The Huangs maybe home in California with their family and friends, but the pain of losing a child is still fresh.
HUANG: We do not know how she died and we cannot determine (ph) the grief. ELAM: Grief made worse by an international legal nightmare. While
living in Qatar for Matthew's job, the couple's 8-year-old adopted daughter Gloria, dies in January of 2013. Matthew recounts to CBS the last moments of their daughter's life.
HUANG: Gloria was on the floor, foaming at the mouth. So I took her immediately to the emergency room. They did about 40 minutes of CPR and then they told me that Gloria had passed away.
ELAM: The Huangs are arrested, charged with starving Gloria to death. The couple spends almost a year in prison before being released on bail in November of last year. Fired from his job, the Huangs survive on donations from family and friends. The family says Gloria had an eating disorder that existed before they adopted her from Ghana. But the Qatari prosecutor, are these the Huangs are nothing more than human traffickers, who bought the child cheaply from her poverty, stricken birth parents.
The couple was convicted in a Qatari court in March and sentenced to three years in prison. Matthew releasing this statement quote, "We have just been wrongfully convicted and we feel as if we are being kidnapped by the Qatar judicial system." The couple's other two children, boys also adopted from Africa, are put in an orphanage after their parents arrest, before eventually moving to live with Grace's mother in the United States. The couple files an appeal. Then on November 30th, a break, an appeals judge in Qatar clears Matthew and Grace of Gloria's death. Citing weak forensic reports and testimony from witnesses who say the child was not deprived. Yet the parents face another hurdle. In a phone interview with CNN, Matthew speaks of their freedom deferred.
HUANG: We were declared innocent by the judge this morning, and told that we may leave the country. However, we came to the airport. They would not allow us to go through immigration. They confiscated our passports, and we were out to fold that the attorney general's office issued a warrant for our arrest, earlier today.
ELAM: But the delay proves temporary, and three days later, the Huangs leave Qatar. Family Spokesman Eric Volz, tweeting this picture of the couple on the plane and this message, quote, "Thank you to all the silent heroes on this one, wheels are up." Stephanie Elam, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: What a moment that must have been, joining me now in an exclusive primetime interview, Grace and Matthew Huang, and Eric Volz, the spokesman for the family who's managing director of David House Agency and International Crisis Resource Agency. Thank you for joining us here in New York, and also, thank you guys from joining us from L.A. How are you both doing tonight?
HUANG: Thank you. We're glad to be here. We're glad to be back in the U.S. with our family, with our sons.
LEMON: Grace, why do you think your daughter Grace, passed away? GRACE HUANG, CONVICTED FOR THE DEATH OF AFRICAN-BORN DAUGHTER: We --
we still don't know. We've did not ever get a proper autopsy from the hospital. And they made so many mistakes on the autopsy. And accused of us of crimes and yeah, even to this day we don't know the cause of her death.
LEMON: It (inaudible) unbelievable story listening to how it, how it unfolded. Grace, you really had a hard time convincing the officials in Qatar that your children were indeed yours because, they are adopted. Tell us what that was like for you.
G.HUANG: When the investigator came in and talked to me, he -- he wanted to know how I was related to these children, and I said, I'm their mom, and he said, no, they're not. They're not your children. And I said, yes, I'm their mom. He said, no, you're not -- because you're different colors. It just happened, happened again in court, I get asked, are you the real mom? And I would say yes. And that's just not believable to them.
LEMON: Matthew, being in a Qatari prison, you were separated from each other. That must have been extremely traumatic for you.
M.HUANG: It was very difficult. We were unable to see each other. We were unable to communicate. My wife and I were unable to pass letters. And, I think prison was probably one of the hardest experiences of my life.
LEMON: Grace, how about you?
G.HUANG: It was just so hard to be separated from my whole family, from everybody, from my husband, from the kids and just being unable to do anything about it.
LEMON: Grace, Matthew, Eric, stand by. I know there's much, much more to this story that we want to talk about. When we come back, I want to talk about how you guys are putting your lives back together, and I want to talk to Eric about what kind of people these two people are. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The Huangs were living a nightmare, falsely accused of the death of their daughter and imprisoned in the Middle East. Now, they're putting their lives back together. So back with me now is Grace, Matthew Huang, along with the Family Spokesman Eric Volz. Grace, do you feel like you were able to properly grieve your daughter, Gloria?
G.HUANG: No. We took her to the hospital, and then we did not -- then we were directly put into prison right after that. And, all this -- and then there's this legal battle -- no, we haven't really been able to grieve Gloria and to just remember -- remember how special she was to all of us. Instead, we're facing all these -- we're having a case to deal with.
LEMON: Do you feel like the government, either, either one of you, the government -- U.S. government did enough to help you?
M. HUANG: I feel like the U.S. government took a long time to respond -- a little bit, but way too late. They could have done a lot more a lot earlier. We know that there are individuals in the U.S government who were prayed hard on our behalf. But, I feel like the U.S. government was trying to play -- political games in order to protect their relationship with the country of Qatar, rather than actually, focusing on and doing the right thing to support their citizens in prison abroad.
LEMON: This is a real-life nightmare, Eric. I mean, I can't -- I just can't even imagine. I can't fathom everything that they, they went through there.
ERIC VOLZ, HUANG'S FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: Yeah. I mean, this is, this is happening all over. Families are thrust to the forefront of these cases, you know, forced to deal with negotiations, politics, media, there's proof of innocence in the Huangs case. And I was presented not only to the Qatari government, but also the U.S. state department. And one of the things that their story really highlights is that when the state department doesn't take the right steps, and doesn't send the right message, they're actually giving permission for rogue prosecutors to institutionally kidnap Americans and use them for political bargaining chips like they did with the Huangs.
LEMON: So them what should -- I asked them if they thought the U.S. government had done enough to get them out of prison, and really to help in the entire tenure. So, then, what needs to be done to rectify this, to keep this from happening again? As you said, it's happening more than we know.
VOLZ: Yeah, I mean. Well, let me give you a quick example. The day that the Huangs were evicted, the U.S. Embassy announced $11 billion arms deal that they were dealing with the court of Defense Ministry. While they were telling the Huang family that they were doing everything they could to secure their release, President Obama thanked the Qatar government for their role and the Bowe Bergdahl Taliban five swaps. So what that gesturing and messaging this, does it tells governments, there won't be any consequence for mistreating Americans and having them wrongfully imprisoned. There, there really wasn't a cost, so that's why this took so long for, for it to be resolved.
LEMON: Let's talk about your own story, because you know this all too well.
VOLZ: Absolutely. Well, I came into this work, it happens to me. I was wrongfully imprisoned in Central America many years ago. But like many Americans who are traveling, investing, studying abroad, falling in love overseas, I found myself -- you know, accused of a crime I didn't commit, a legal system that didn't make sense. The -- you know, U.S. government wasn't giving me really good advice. Big Washington law firms didn't understand that anyone's culturally. So, really ended up being my family, having to go through a learning curve and that's what we do at the David House Agency. We help shorten the learning curve for families.
LEMON: How many people were working behind the scenes to help the Huang?
VOLZ: In totally, it was probably 80 people that had touched their case.
LEMON: And you could use more help, right?
VIOLZ: Absolutely. Yeah. But, tremendous amount of support from the innocence community and human rights and private specialists.
LEMON: Before I went to break I said I wanted to talk to you about what kind of people they are, and...
VOLZ: I have never worked for a family like this. Everyone, his worked on this case has been filled with a spirit of, just -- just you know, deep passion for them. They really have woven their lives into the needs of others. That's why they adopted. And the irony is they were accused of being human traffickers.
LEMON: Matthew and Grace, this is the season for family now. You know, you don't have your daughter Gloria, but you have your other children. What will you do over -- how will you handle the next couple of weeks, and your lives moving forward?
G.HUANG: We're just going a day at a time right now. We're enjoying being with our sons. We're just spending time hanging out right now and enjoying board games and reading together, and just giving lots of hugs.
LEMON: Matthew?
M.HUANG: We're just enjoying our time as a family. As Grace said, this is just the time for us to renew our family, rebuild our family again, and -- we don't know what the future holds. But, we know that God holds the future and we're just excited to be back together again.
LEMON: Matthew, Grace, wish you the best of luck. Eric, thank you. You're appreciated.
M.HUANG: Thank you.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Thanks for watching. See you back here.
