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Dr. Drew
Protesters Rally Across the Country to Protest Police Brutality; Reverend Al Sharpton Organizing Massive March for the Weekend; Attempted Murder charges Against Ebony Wilkerson Dropped
Aired December 10, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, more die-in protests around the country.
GROUP OF DEMONSTRATORS: I can`t breathe! I can`t breathe!
PINSKY (voice-over): We will go there, live.
Plus, charges dropped against minivan mom. Experts agree she was decompensated-mentally ill when she drove her car full of children into the
ocean.
And, the title of "Ms. Bum Bum" is not enough for this woman. She wants her virginity surgically restored.
PINSKY (voice-over): Let us get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Hi, good evening. Coming to you tonight from CNN Center in New York City. Sam Schacher with us in Los Angeles. Die-in protests still
going strong tonight. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GROUP OF PROTESTERS: Hands up, do not shoot! Hands up, do not shoot!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: There should not be aggressive, unnecessary force. That is not asking too much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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LARRY ELDER, RADIO COMMUNICATOR/AUTHOR: If you want the police to be less aggressive, but crime will go up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PUPPY SAN (ph), PROTESTOR: Justice means that we want the police to be responsible for their homicide, to face criminal prosecution and to lose
their jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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NICK VALENCIA, CNN REPORTER: They are marching according to the demonstrator here towards New York Police Department Headquarters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We will be looking at the back -- out here in the Columbus Circle. They will be descending on us soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA PLAYER: The notion that white cops are out there just killing black people, that is ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: The scumbag comment. Respond to that.
BARKLEY: Yes. When you are looting people`s property, that is what you are. That is against the law. It is not your property.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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BARKLEY: Maybe I should not have used the term scumbags, but it is relevant. Still, there is no justification for what they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/T.V. HOST: In the case of Charles Barkley, I just have to say that some people have to learn how to be able to say, "I
am sorry, but I am not equipped to have this conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us Vanessa Barnett from HipHollywood.com, Crystal Wright from Conservativeblackchick.com, Larry Elder, Radio Commentator, author of
"Dear Father, Dear Son. And, Sam, another big city is the scene of a protest march coming up.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HLN CO-HOST: That is right, Dr. Drew. Marchers are rallied in downtown Orlando, to call to action for, quote, "An end to
police brutality." A group planned to meet at the federal courthouse and march to the department of justice.
PINSKY: The Reverend Al Sharpton has been organizing a massive march this weekend, Saturday, particularly in Washington. Crystal, people are making
comparisons to the civil rights movement. Is that fair, is that what we are going through here?
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: It is not fair, and perhaps the good Reverend Al Sharpton should listen to his good friend President Barack
Obama. And, I actually for the first time agree with what President Obama said on his B.E.T. interview. I think it was yesterday or, you know, a few
days ago.
President Obama said, "We should not equate what is happening now with what happened 50 years ago when Martin Luther King, Jr., fought and died for
civil rights. Al Sharpton benefits himself. And, when he engages in something, it is always to benefit good ole Al.
It is never to help advanced black people, solve the problems facing black Americans, or heal race relations. So, you know, what I describe the
march? He is -- it is making a mockery of what Martin Luther King did 50 years ago. It is awful.
PINSKY: Larry, a mockery? Is there some way he could be of help?
LARRY ELDER, RADIO COMMENTATOR/AUTHOR: No. I agree with everything she said. It is a mockery. Martin Luther King taught us to evaluate people
based upon the content of their character, not the color of their skin. And, what these marchers are saying is that if you are a white cop, and you
have an encounter with a black suspect, whatever happened, happened as a result of race or racism.
I do not see any evidence, whatsoever, that whatever happened between Michael Brown and Darren Wilson was because of race. I do not see any
evidence that whatever happened between Dan Pantaleo and Eric Garner was because of race. I do not see anything about what happened between Trayvon
Martin and George Zimmerman happened because of race. But that is a perception, and it is not fair to police officers and people that are
involved in security. It is not fair. It is racist.
PINSKY: And, Vanessa, perhaps you can defend the position?
BARNETT: Well, no, I do not think that this -- what the fight is right now is directly connected or related or exactly the same as the civil rights
movement. But you can`t tell these people what they are fighting for is not just as important to them as it was to those people who fought 50 years
ago in that time when they marched.
These people still feel like it is that important. And, I do not think anyone would be out there in the freezing cold, laying on the concrete and
spouting off and saying what they feel in their hearts if it did not matter to them. So, to take that away from them is not fair. It is not the same
fight, but it is a serious fight, nonetheless.
And, yes, Reverend Al Sharpton is a very polarizing character. Yes, a lot of what he does is considered very self-serving; but on the flip side, when
there is a situation or an instance of injustice, he is there. He does use his voice. He tries to use his force for good.
And, so, when you have people that are willing to stand up and willing to fight when they see racial profiling, when they see police brutality and
when they see injustices that need to be handled, you can`t always say that it is necessarily self-serving. If they are there for the people --
PINSKY: Crystal -- Crystal --
BARNETT: If they are there for the people.
PINSKY: Crystal, I saw you smiling. What are you smiling at?
(LAUGHING)
WRIGHT: I mean there is just so much of what Vanessa said is just laughable, especially about Al Sharpton. Al Sharpton, if everyone recalls
rushed to judgment in the Trayvon Martin case as well as what happened with Michael Brown.
He incited race riots. He incited -- he said, "Justice must be served in his justice, was that the white cops needed to be indicted before any
investigation was conducted." So, that is the Al Sharpton way. Let us go right to the race-baiting. Let us go right to the division, because it is
white on black crime. Right?
But, black young men are being killed with impunity by other young black men, everyday and where is the march for those young men? But, I also want
to go back to something else Vanessa Said.
Vanessa said that people should protest. But, you know, there is a difference, Vanessa, between people protesting peacefully to raise
awareness about what happened with Eric Garner and if you choose, Michael Brown. Then it is a very stark different thing. Looting --
PINSKY: I am going to help you, Crystal --
WRIGHT: Wait, wait --
PINSKY: Crystal. I have the point in my head. And, I want to say it this way. This was a day when our laws were heinous and needed change and civil
disobedience was an obligation. You are obliged to be civilly disobedient. Now what is the law we are trying to change and why are you being civilly
disobedient? Because that is what civil disobedient is based on, in unjust law.
WRIGHT: What I am saying is --
PINSKY: So, what is the law?
WRIGHT: Listen. Listen --
(CROSSTALKS)
BARNETT: -- And, if people feel like things are -- if there is racial profiling, we know in the Eric Garner case, that police officer had been
reprimanded for racial profiling several times. So, there is still that issue. And, for most people and me included, if there is one injustice,
that is one too many for me. So, that is why I go out. --
WRIGHT: Here is the difference. Here is the difference, real quick.
BARNETT: That is why I am saying "Hands up, don`t shoot." And, that is why there is a peaceful protest --
PINSKY: All right. Crystal, really quick. Then Larry.
WRIGHT: Here is real quick. OK. The real difference is, most of the protesters in the streets now have no idea what they are protesting. How
is disrupting traffic, disrupting trains at Grand Central Station, lying in the middle of the road just to disrupt things, that is not going to
accomplish anything like Dr. Drew said.
And, I will tell you one thing. Eric Garner`s death was indeed the result of police brutality. It was heinous. It was disgusting. And, you know
what I tweeted that night? That not only was protests expected, outrage was demanded in the way that eric Garner was brutalized and assassinated by
those police officers and Pantaleo being the officer, number one. So, he must be dealt with, in my opinion. That was very different than what
happened with Michael Brown --
PINSKY: OK. All right.
WRIGHT: Who, as a young man, made bad choices.
PINSKY: But -- all right. So, Larry. So, here is my point. People do not even understand the theory behind civil disobedience anymore. Peaceful
civil disobedience was a conscious disobeying of law because the law sucked. They were terrible.
Now, Crystal just threw down a gauntlet that something needs to change in that relationship with that cop and the people he served. Are there laws
that we can be disobedient to that will help that change?
ELDER: Well, you are getting to the crux of what we are talking about here, Dr. Drew. What is the "It" that these people are protesting.
WRIGHT: Right.
ELDER: During the `60s, we were protesting laws that were racist --
PINSKY: The Jim Crow laws, they were an abomination. They were a heinous, heinous system that needed to be broken down and disobeyed.
BARNETT: Absolutely, but --
PINSKY: We were all obliged to disobey those laws.
BARNETT: We are still seeing those same levels of racism in certain instances --
PINSKY: No. Well, the racism is not the level of the laws --
BARNETT: And, we feel like racial profiling is a real issue here. We can`t skirt around the fact that this issue is not the same issue, but it
is an issue, nonetheless, and needs to be handled.
PINSKY: I do not disagree with you.
BARNETT: So, marching and laying in, it gives our voices heard.
PINSKY: Hang on, hang on, Vanessa.
BARNETT: We are talking about it right now.
PINSKY: Hang on. One at a time. And, I want to try to hear Larry. Larry has a technical thing here, but go ahead, Larry.
ELDER: If racial profiling was a factor in Ferguson? Where is the evidence that racial profiling was a factor in Staten Island? Where is the
evidence that racial profiling was a factor in Cleveland? Where is it?
BARNETT: The simple fact that the officer in the Mike Brown case said that he went to that neighborhood and automatically assumed that there was that
tension between police officers.
You can`t show up to the scene with a preconceived notion. We know these things exist. And, like Crystal brought up, black on black crime. We tend
to throw out these things as if white people are not killing white people, as well.
We have big issues here, and we only use black on black crime when it is convenient. There are organizations in place that fight against it. There
are people on the ground that have fought against it, but it is only brought up in the media when it is convenient, so there we can say, "Oh,
you can think that way about Ferguson because there is black on black crime.
WRIGHT: Well, I think Larry --
BARNETT: We should look at it as crime in America. And, we should all be outraged about it --
PINSKY: Crystal --
BARNETT: -- We do not go around and say, white on white crime.
PINSKY: Crystal, last thought then I got to get out.
WRIGHT: Yes. OK. Look, here is the --
PINSKY: Quick.
WRIGHT: Yes. Here are the three things Larry hit them. There is police brutality. We should look into that.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: There are times -- there is black on black crime. That is the second thing. And, I mean, you know, what is happened to Michael Brown
should be taken out of the equation in my opinion. You had policing that occurred, that followed the law.
But, the two things police brutality -- I am sorry, racial profiling is number two. So, we have racial profiling, police brutality. These are two
things that America needs to focus on and really discuss. And we can have congressional hearings about it.
But at the end of the day, as Dr. Drew said, what are you protesting? What do you want to change? You want to change racial profiling and police
brutality. So, you know what you should be doing?
Going to the courthouse steps on your local town, going to city hall. Why are not people protesting Bill De Blasio, the new Mayor of New York City?
It is well within his hands to do something about his police department.
PINSKJY: All right. We will leave it that for now. And, we are going to keep an eye on the die-in protests that are out there live. We will have
perhaps get a report from the streets. And, later, the woman behind the wheel, who drove her children into the sea, will she, eventually, or soon
get her children back? We will discuss after this.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP OF DEMONSTRATOR: I can`t breathe! I can`t breathe! I can`t breathe!
VALENCIA (on camera): They have been staging a die-in. They also brought in interpretive dancers who are mimicking the choke hold that they say was
put on Eric Garner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLANTON: They have done the first part, which is to draw attention to the issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELDER: This is all about the assumption that white racism that is specifically white cops are out to get black men and it is B.S.!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WASHINGTON: Putting up a hash tag does not galvanize people to do anything. It does not create any change. It allows people to feel like
they are connected to somebody else and is that they have done something. It is lazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: There is some mob mentality. There is a wanting to believe in something. And, once you become involved in a
group like this, you are susceptible to group think.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Crystal, Larry. Joining in the group, Danine Manette, Criminal Investigator, Author of "Ultimate Betrayal." We are
talking about police brutality and whether there was directed specifically some African-American profiling in this situation.
Protesting a lot, night after night. The issue demands some kind of attention, though it is getting unclear on what the endgame is. We have
some YouTube video, just in the CNN that shows a protester punching a police officer the day after the Eric Garner decision came down.
Police say it was a two different demonstrations. He wore the same thing, a mask and a Fannie pack and it was the Fannie pack that ultimately led,
apparently, to his arrest. And, so, my question again back from the previous block is, have people forgotten what the principle of civil
disobedience is?
It is disobeying laws that are unjust and abomination against humanity that you have a moral obligation to disobey. Larry, what law was he disobeying
there by punching an officer during what was supposed have been a peaceful demonstration?
ELDER: That is why this thing is so wild, Dr. Drew. There is not an "It" that they are protesting. I talked to some of these protesters and I hear
them saying these things like, "Well, we are protesting police brutality." We protesting criminal injustice."
Specifically, what do you mean?. Do you believe that the cops should never use a chokehold? Then say so. You want cops to stop doing stop and frisk,
then say so. You want to stop cops to stop being proactive, say so.
And, the consequence of that is, crime will go up, because these incidents were not racially motivated. I do not see any evidence that this real one
we are talking about, Cleveland, Ferguson and Staten Island had anything at all to do with race. Nothing.
PINSKY: Danine, you are in law enforcement. Danine, what is your perspective?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Well, first of all, I am going to have to take Mike Brown out of this equation, because I think that lumping
him into this takes away from the legitimacy of the movement, honestly. I think his situation was completely different.
I understand the outrage. I see the protest every single night. I have to drive through Berkeley. I have to drive through Oakland. I see what is
going on. And, I do believe that the message has now been lost. It has been lost because of the fact that people are being inconvenienced in their
cars, trying to get to work, kind of do what they need to do.
I think this is -- they are going about it all wrong at this point. This is not going to be resolved on a global level, on a federal level, on a
national level. This is only going to be resolved on a community level. Because every single police department has different policies --
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Right.
MANETTE: -- has different standards and things and procedures. And, you are going to have to get to your community. You need to find out who your
beat cops are. You need to invite them to your community events. You need to get to know them, have them get to know you. Have dialogue. Be able to
look at each other. I am a human being behind this badge. I am also a human being over here on the street not wanting to be harassed.
SCHACHER: Yes.
MANETTE: People have got to get to a level -- You invite them, go on a ride along. See what the police are doing and why they are doing it, why
they are making the decisions that they are making. It is not just incumbent on the police to reach out to the community. The community needs
to reach out to the police on a local level. All of these now is for not.
SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Sam, what is social media saying about it?
SCHACHER: OK. I will tell you what social media is saying, but really quickly. To be fair, there are a number of different call-to-action
campaigns and petitions that are circulating that have garnered thousands, almost a hundred thousand signatures to end, for example, very specific
things like banning or having that chokehold be illegal. So, there is some of that out there. I just wanted to say.
As far as what our viewers are saying on social media, it varies, lots of different perspectives. For example, Anonymous tweeted, "NYU die-in was a
success. Protests were never meant to be convenient but to raise awareness." Pepperdine University tweeted, a quote from our very own Judy
Ho, quote, "When protests turn violent, message gets obscured."
PINSKY: Right.
SCHACHER: And RayS writes on Facebook, "I agree 110% with the comply, you won`t die, but by the same token, you should not die for a resisting an
arrest charge either. There are other avenues the officer can take. They have plenty of equalizers."
PINSKY: Crystal, comply and you will not die, seems rather an extreme aphorism.
WRIGHT: Well, no. I think what is happening now and I agree with pretty much everything Danine said. The activism needs to happen on the local
level. People need to protesting their city council members. They need to protesting their mayors and say, "We want change."
Especially in cities like Cleveland where we know the justice department already came in. They did an investigation that lasted, what? Five years.
I mean a long time and they found the Cleveland Police Department is using deadly force as the first response.
SCHACHER: Right.
WRIGHT: So, now you have a situation where, like you said, Dr. Drew, people do not even understand their history. The civil rights history, the
history of civil disobedience. When my parents were growing up in the segregated south, they sat in at lunch counters because they were told
because of the color of their skin, they were not human and they were not allowed to sit in at those lunch counters.
And, what really upsets me and what I want young people out there -- what I would like people to do, because now it is just chaos. It is just like
mobs out of control. You have pop-up mobs is what it looks like to me, right? And, they are using Twitter to incite this kind of violent
behavior.
So, now you have that young black man you showed who was hitting the police officer. Now, we have a situation where young people are just putting all
police officers in one box. You know, is not that the type of racial profiling that black people say -- that some black people would say, "You
know, that is abhorrent." And, now, they are doing it to police officers who are there largely to protect and serve.
And, I agree with Larry. I just do not think white police officers -- are there bad white police officers like there are bad black police officers
like there are bad Hispanic and Asians? Sure. Like I said from the beginning, we need to focus on what are you protesting about? Racial
profiling? Are you protesting about police brutality? Take it to the local level.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
WRIGHT: And, finally, what makes me upset is, I would encourage people to look up the history of Emmett Till, the 12 or 13-year-old boy who was
brutalized and done heinous things to by white men in the segregated cell. It makes me upset talking about it.
He was brutalized. He had a shotgun to his head. His eye gouged out, and then they tied a cotton gin fan around his neck and threw him in the
Tallahatchie River, where he sunk to the bottom and for days sat there.
That is the reason why Martin Luther King, Jr. sparked a protest that led to us, people like me, Danine, and Larry being able to sit on this show.
It is not the same thing that is happening now.
PINSKY: Yes. I agree. And, now, we have some footage of Charles Barkley speaking out. I wonder if we can pull that up. I want to get Larry`s
response to that. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARKLEY: Black is not always right and white is not always wrong. You got some bad apples who are taking advantage of the situation. Cops are
actually awesome. They are the only thing in the ghetto between this place being the wild, wild west.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Larry, your response to Mr. Barkley.
ELDER: Well, I agree with him. We have a black president, Dr. Drew. We have a black Attorney General. We have a black Secretary of Homeland
Security. A black National Security Adviser. And, there was a black female sergeant at the scene in Staten Island dealing with Eric Garner.
This is not your grandfather`s America. And, it is unfair, indeed insulting to the civil rights workers, who fought and march to make this
country as decent as it has become.
PINSKY: Danine, last thought.
MANETTE: Yes. You know, but the thing is that just because we have all these blacks in the high places, it does not mean racism does not exist.
SCHACHER: Right.
MANETTE: That is just like saying, there is no sexism because women are in high places. Or, there is no homophobia because gays can be married. So,
you know, I heard that statement last night and I just do not agree with it.
ELDER: Who said racism does not exist?
WRIGHT: But, we made progress.
MANETTE: You did last night.
WRIGHT: We have made progress.
PINSKY: Larry.
MANETTE: We made progress.
ELDER: $100,000 if you can show where I said racism does not exist. $100,000, Find it.
PINSKY: Danine?
MANETTE: I heard it last night. But, you know, all of that to say, that you know, we made progress but we got a long way to go. We definitely have
a long way to go.
PINSKY: And, listen, psychological studies show racism exists. To say it does not exist is nonsense. But, is it -- say that, Larry, last thought sp
ELDER: What do I get in return when you find out I did say it? Because I did not say it.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: OK. I will bring you back with a real camera and a real studio, though.
MANETTE: My apology. Let us just forget it.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel. Next up, minivan mom will not face attempted murder charges for driving her children into the ocean because she is
severely mentally ill. But, is she able to care for them? Should she get them back?
And, later, a woman who wants -- well, not her children back. She wants her virginity back, surgically. Huh? OK, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (1): A terrifying scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: You can see the waves start to swallow the car and pull it out to sea.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (1): A pregnant woman and her three children trapped inside. The mother allegedly drove it into the ocean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: The two in the backseat was crying with their arms out saying, "Our mommy is trying to kill us. Please, help."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: My client was insane at the time of the incident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Now, the state agrees with Wilkerson`s lawyer that she was not in her right mind at the moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (2): Ebony Wilkerson is going to plead not guilty by reason of insanity.
EBONY WILKERSON, MOTHER WHO DROVE HER CAR INTO THE OCEAN WITH HER THREE CHILDREN: I feel way better. I feel like my normal self.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER(3): She was released from jail back in May and is not allowed to see her children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam. Joining us for the first time, Anneelise Goetz, attorney. I still got Vanessa and Danine. Attempted murder charges
against Ebony Wilkerson have been dropped. She drove her minivan into the sea with her three kids inside. One child, a 3-year-old on her lap. She
still faces child abuse charges. Sam, what has happened to her since this incident?
SCHACHER: OK. So, let us look back on that timeline, Dr. Drew. OK? So, March 4th. She was put in jail after driving her minivan into the ocean,
you remember. March 18th, moved to a hospital for psychiatric treatment, after she was seen punching her pregnant stomach.
May 19th, gave birth to a baby boy. May 30th was released on bond. Now, the conditions of her release is no contact with the kids. She has to
receive outpatient treatment and she is subject to random drug testing.
PINSKY: That is interesting.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: That is the first I have seen sort of things in place to protect against addiction. Danine, should she get her children back.
MANETTE: Not right now. I think it is telling, though, that the D.A. decided not to file -- I mean to dismiss the case. They did not go with a
lesser charge or anything. The fact that they dismissed the case says a lot.
It means that they just did not quite have enough evidence to go forward with anything or that they completely bought her story given, you know,
whatever the psychological exam was; but not any time soon.
PINSKY: But, Danine --
MANETTE: I think that she is just way too -- go ahead.
PINSKY: What? Way too what? I am smiling, because you did not accept the fact that she was severely mentally ill. You thought that was an excuse
for some of her heinous behavior.
MANETTE: I did think it was an excuse, but I feel like if it went through the court process and obviously the defense attorney must have presented
enough information to convince the D.A. to dismiss the charges. I was not there. I am going to have to go on the fact that it seems as though they
have worked it out-
PINSKY: All right.
MANETTE: And, they believed whatever evidence was presented at the time.
PINSKY: All right. And, Anneelise --
MANETTE: But, she does not need to get those kids back anytime soon, at all.
PINSKY: All right. And, she seemed to me, Anneelise, to be completely disconnected from reality. I do not know if it was substance induced. It
is interesting they are doing random urine screenings on her now. It looked like a manic episode or decompensated psychotic episode. And, now
she seems to be compensated. She seems to be better. Should she get her kids back?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: She absolutely should not get her kids back. There is a big difference between a prosecutor not being able to establish
the legal elements of a crime and being fit to take care of your children.
This is a woman that is going to be just put through the ringer in the custody case, which was a gag order on right now. So, we do not really
know what is going on. But, the mere fact that she drove her children into the ocean does not look good for her in the custody process, obviously.
PINSKY: So, Anneelse, let me get it straight. So, driving kids in the ocean not a good thing?
(LAUGHING)
GOETZ: No. No.
PINSKY: OK. OK.
GOETZ: The family court judge is not going to be happy with those statistics. And, she is trying to reach out to the kids. So, we do know
that she is trying to have contact with them. But, I would find it very unlikely if a family court judge was eventually to give her custody. More
likely, we may see some supervised visitation in the years to come, but nothing out of today.
PINSKY: All right. And, Vanessa, you are sort of more like Danine. You are very circumspect about these things. Though -- Do we have that footage
of that woman that killed her son in the psychotic state. Is that available in this block. And, Vanessa, do you remember that story?
BARNETT: I do not.
PINSKY: We will play that in the next block. Oh, come on.
MANETTE: The stabbing.
SCHACHER: The woman that you interviewed, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: Oh, Sheilla?
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: I remember. Sheilla changed my life. That is probably why I feel the way I do right now. I do not agree -- I am sorry, I do not agree
with you.
PINSKY: All right.
BARNETT: I think over time that this woman definitely, absolutely, should gradually get her children back. And, I say it because so often on here we
push the fact that mental illness is real and your brain is an organ just like your heart. So, if she was driving around and had a heart attack, and
drove that car into the ocean, you would not take her kids away.
SCHACHER: Right.
BARNETT: And, so I think she really deserves - and, this can be another example like Sheilla. She really deserves the opportunity to get that
outpatient treatment. Take the proper medicine, have court mandated visits and anything else that will help rehabilitate her and get her in line to
one day have her children back. She should not be punished because she is sick.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, let me provide some back story, because not only did the psychologist that was hired by the defense but also the psychologist
that was hired by the prosecution, both of them agreed that this woman did have a psychotic break.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Not only that. They did some digging. They saw that she has mental illness or she had history of mental illness. Her family has a
history of mental illness. And, on top of that, the day before that she had this psychotic break, she was hospitalized. She was then released.
The day that this did happen, her sister called the police because she was acting so erratically.
PINSKY: I remember that.
BARNETT: Yes.
PINSKY: And they wanted help.
SCHACHER: They did. Exactly.
PINSKY: And, Anneelise, I know you are shaking your head --
SCHACHER: The poor woman is suffering.
PINSKY: -- But Vanessa was obstreperous. It would have none of this a year ago and now I have broken her and converted her. See how that works?
I remember her singing the defense for this woman just a second ago. So, there you go.
All right, next up, results of our live poll, take part right now. Get in there. The question is, should minivan mom get her kids back? And, later,
we are changing gears of crazy story about someone called Ms. Bum bum. We are going to get the bottom of her -- literally, bottom of her strange,
strange, strange surgical request. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): One kid in the back seat was screaming out, you know. Please help us. Our mom is trying to kill us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: She is trying to drive, and I am trying to stop her and she had her kids. So, I took her keys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): One kid was in the back seat with his arms out crying. And, one kid was on the mother`s lap like wrestling her for
the steering wheel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: She was talking about Jesus and there is demons in my house and I am trying to control her, but I am trying to keep
them safe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): She looked at us with this blank look and it was just scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and the behavior bureau, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University; Danine Manette and Erica
America, Psychotherapist, T.V. host.
We are discussing the woman who drove her minivan into the sea with children inside. Attempted murder charges have subsequently been dropped.
Erica, the question is, is that the right decision? Is it just mental illness? Can we rely on this woman to be a decent parent in the future?
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/T.V. HOST: You know, this woman did have a psychotic break, but I do not think she should get her children back. I
mean she could have killed them. And, if it is an episodic illness, it can happen again.
I think she needs to be under, you know, some mandated treatment, psychiatric and psychological until she knows that she is better. I mean
it could happen again next week. It could happen again in two years. So, is she a bad person? No. Did she want to kill her kids? I do not think
so.
But, it is also a bad sign, Dr. Drew, that she said, "I am back to my normal self." This is an illness that is ongoing and sometimes it is for
the rest of your life. So, you have to learn how to manage it. And, if she is going to say that I am back to my normal self, that could be someone
that is not going to take her medication. So -- do you know what I am saying, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Yes. I do know what you are saying. And, I think that is the conundrum here is that she has to be so carefully supervised and required
some way to comply with her treatment. Judy, do you agree with that?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. It takes a village when somebody has a psychotic break, like this woman might have had. And,
it takes other people to actually remind these people when they see danger signs, when they see signs that they might be slipping into psychosis
again. And, this reminds me of your exclusive interview with Sheilla Shea, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: In her own experience and the fact that she was able to repair her relationships with her children that they actually feel safe around her
again, but that is going to take time. Because when you look at these interviews, especially some of the things that her oldest child had said,
they are clearly afraid of her. Because her intention that day was actually to kill them --
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: -- Even if it was for purposes that she thought were protective of her children.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Right. And, in that psychotic stage, she thought she was trying to protect them. It seems like -- well, I do not want to speculate what it
was. But, clearly psychotic.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: And, you bring up Sheilla Shea. I do have some footage of that interview. Let us take a look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEILLA SHEA, MOTHER WHO STABBED HER SON TO DEATH: I thought that if I killed my kids and then killed myself, that there would not be anybody to
hurt them. And, I thought that at least I would be merciful, that I would not torture them or torment them or anything like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Danine, it took a lot, a lot of treatment for this woman to be safe around her children.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: She had a cognitive behavioral checklist in terms of how her illness was doing and checking with her medicines and following a
psychiatrist.
MANETTE: A lot of treatment and a long time.
PINSKY: Yes.
MANETTE: This situation that we are talking about today just happened. We not even talking about a year ago. It is too soon to decide whether or not
or to determine whether or not she is going to be a continued danger to her children. Everything is still new. The meds are probably just wearing off
from last week. So, I am thinking that, you know --
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Well, you know --
MANETTE: -- there needs to be a lot more interaction and support system around her.
PINSKY: You are right and --
SCHACHER: Is there a time, though, Dr. Drew? Is there a time where somebody continues to maintain their treatment and they clear themselves
and then are you ever in the clear?
PINSKY: You know what? Well, they are now injectables of medicines that will last a month that we are having great results. But the reality is,
there is no sort of systemic training that I have seen in this that, you know, all psychologist or all doctors get where you could say there is
research that says in this situation, here is the probable outcome.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Judy, do you know what I am saying? It is all sort of clinical judgment people are kind of -- they are giving their best guess.
HO: That is right. And, there is different types of risk factors and protective factors for each individuals that might make them better
candidates for certain types of therapy or certain types of medication as well.
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Hold on. I am looking at the poll online.
SCHACHER: The results?
PINSKY: Sam, you saw those results?
SCHACHER: I do. Here it is, right here. 10 percent say yes that she should get her kids back and 90 percent of our viewers say no.
HO: I do not agree with that. I really do not agree with that.
PINSKY: All right. Interesting.
HO: I believe that it is something that is treatable and as long as she stays in treatment she should be able to get her kids back.
MANETTE: There is still time though. There should be no rush to get them back in that home.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: I agree with Danine. I agree with Danine.
MANETTE: Slow process
PINSKY: It is a stuff call. It is a slow process. We should remember that Sheilla Shea converted Vanessa, somebody who is shocked to see this.
All right, next up, she had just won the so-called Ms. Bum Bum title. Now, she wants her virginity surgically restored. OK. We will get into it
after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Saying she wants to bring respect to the title, the reigning Ms. Bum Bum Brazil is having surgery to restore her
virginity. The procedure comes just in time for her latest photo shoot, a nude magazine cover. She said, "I would not feel good about appearing
naked, if it was not exactly as I came into the world. If you know what I mean."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my Sam, Vanessa, Judy and joining us, one of my favorite comedians, Lavell Crawford, whom probably was last seen on "Breaking Bad"
by most of you, falling on a big pile of Heisenberg`s money.
I am sure Lavell remembers that. Most people probably stop you and talk about that. But, this is the story you are tweeting most about tonight.
She won a pageant, having the best butt in Brazil. She is now Ms. Bum Bum. She wants to prove on other parts. So, she apparently had a surgery. It
is being reported as a Hymenoplasty surgery to restore her virginity. Sam, she is 22.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Why did she want this procedure and is this the procedure she in fact had?
SCHACHER: Yes. OK. So, Dr. Drew, she is posing nude for a magazine cover and like you just heard in that previous package, she wanted to look the
same way she did when she came into this world. She also wants to bring respect to the title Ms. Bum bum. But dr. Drew, come on, nipping and
tucking your va-jay-jay does not bring back your virginity.
PINSKY: There is so many problems with this, Lavell. Where are they going to put that camera that they are going to see her hymen?
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: This is not a vaginoplasty. This is hymenoplasty. Lavell, helo me with this. What is up with this chick?
LAVELL CRAWFORD, COMEDIAN: I have heard of vaginal rejuvenation. I have heard of that. I have found out that is real thing. But like you said,
you can`t get your virginity back. I am sorry.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Right.
CRAWFORD: Her virginity gone. I mean she is Ms. Bum Bum. So, how does she win that? I mean think about it. I bet her cherry got fruit flies on
it. I am sorry.
BARNETT: Ewww.
(LAUGHING)
CRAWFORD: I mean, you know, the thing about it is, I mean if she is a virgin again, I am sure guys would be like, let me see the car fax.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Now, Judy, she says she is giving up on sex. And, I will ask Vanessa, the same question. You seem both so entertained by Lavell. But,
she wants to find someone who is worth it that deserves her virginity restored. And, by the way --
CRAWFORD: Her second virginity?
PINSKY: What is that Lavell?
BARNETT: Nobody wants reused virginity.
(LAUGHING)
CRAWFORD: What the heck, no.
SCHACHER: You guys are being really harsh on her.
BARNETT: What?!
HO: I got to say, you know what, I am fine with it --
SCHACHER: Thank you.
HO: But, I just wonder if it is going to become an addiction.
SCHACHER: Right.
HO: Like how some people become addicted to plastic surgery like is she going to keep restoring her hymen over and over again to give her virginity
over and over again to 15 someone specials? I mean what is going on here?
BARNETT: First of all, at 22 years old, how bad is it down there that you need to go and have surgery to fix it? That is disturbing to me.
Secondly, how ironic is it that she wants to bring respect to the Ms. Bum Bum title by sewing up her vaginal area. Like this is just bizarre.
HO: Yes.
BARNETT: The verbiage she is using.
HO: Yes.
BARNETT: I am not being hard on her.
HO: No.
BARNETT: I am telling her just get real with yourself. You are not a virgin ever again.
CRAWFORD: You are a little outraged on it, but let me tell you something. You women talking tough, but it is really something out there. They get
their things done all over again. And, sometimes you have got to be honest, some of them may need to be redone because some of it look buzzer -
-
SCHACHER: OK.
HO: The fact that she is actually saying she wants to be seen -- Oh, my gosh, what happened to Dr. Drew? He fell over.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Did you hear what he said?
HO: But, she was saying that she wants to be brought back to the way that she was brought into this world. That is really disturbing.
SCHACHER: Yes. That I agree with.
HO: Because she was a baby when she came into this world. So, what is she talking about?
PINSKY: Right. Not only that --
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, I think --
PINSKY: She does not even understand the procedure she had.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: She is talking about vaginoplasty as opposed to hymenoplasty.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Like I said, the only way in this nude shoot they are going to see the hymen is if they do a colposcopy or an endoscopy or something as part
of this shoot.
SCHACHER: Right.
CRAWFORD: Right. Right.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Is she confusing, though, Dr. Drew vaginal restoration with replacing her hymen?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. And, then confusing virginity with chastity.
SCHACHER: So, what doctor is helping her.
PINSKY: I mean virginity is some sort of weird technicality. All right, we have got more. Be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Pageant judges say she is got the best booty in Brazil. But Ms. Bum Bum thinks she can improve on some other private
parts. She is having surgery to restore her virginity. And, giving up sex, for now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Judy and Lavell. And, Judy and Vanessa, you sort of losing it coming on into this break. I do not understand why.
This poor woman is confusing virginity with the intent of chastity and with the technicality of virginity.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: And, Lavell has enlightened us that -- I would have sort of recap what Lavell reminded us that the surgeons would have to be putting together
like -- did you say a busted helium balloon?
(LAUGHING)
CRAWFORD: Yes.
HO: Right.
CRAWFORD: It is almost like a jigsaw puzzle. It is not going to be as nice as it look. You know, sometimes it may look bad. A lot of women want
to dress them up. I mean even guys want to get a little nip and tuck down there because I mean I am tired of mine dropping in the water when I am in
the bathroom. I am sorry.
SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew, what a doodle doctor told her that by having her vagina restored is going to restore her virginity?
PINSKY: Right. Look. It is not the first time --
SCHACHER: How does she even think that, that would even make sense?
PINSKY: I agree with you, Sam. And, that is my point is that virginity has become sort of a technicality. And, Judy, you mentioned the fact that
her going back for more procedures. There is a component of body dysmorphia here.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: I mean she has had all -- It looks like she is doing stuff to her body to win these contests, and then she is getting surgical enhancement.
She has clearly had some surgery in addition and that is body dysmorphia.
HO: That is right. So, I wish she would just be more upfront about the reasons for why she is getting it. It is not really to bring more respect
to this contest. I do not know how that actually relates.
And, clearly, medical knowledge was not part of the criteria for winning Ms. Bum Bum, so she is a bit confused. But, I really do worry that this is
going to get a little bit out of hand like what else is she going to enhance? She is only 22 years old, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Yes.
HO: So, I am really worried about that.
PINSKY: And, Vanessa what was going to -- I want to know what was flashing to Vanessa`s mind as we are going into this segment, because she had a very
unusual look --
SCHACHER: Grin?
PINSKY: Grin.
BARNETT: Well, no -- I mean you know my first reaction to this story was immediately a girl bi, because this is just ridiculous. But then we bring
up body dysmorphia, which is in line with mental illness. And, now, am I supposed to be concerned as I am about Sheilla. I just do not know
anymore, Dr. Drew.
SCHACHER: Wow! Dr. Drew.
BARNETT: Like is it deeper? Is it a mental thing that I need to give her sympathy over?
HO: No.
PINSKY: You can be sympathetic for her. You can understand her behavior.
BARNETT: OK.
PINSKY: You can also say -- you can talk about it in the abstract to something that is not a good idea, right, Lavell?
CRAWFORD: Right. I mean what I am just trying -- Ladies, is a vagina like a carburetor, can you rebuild them?
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Can you, Dr. Drew? Dr. Drew, can you?
CRAWFORD: I do not like refurbished computers. I do not know if I would want a refurbished vagina.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: Look, I have had a baby and it was rough. And, it got so messed up --
PINSKY: I will tell you what -- I will tell you what.
BARNETT: -- But my husband is happy, that is all I am going to say.
PINSKY: That is right. Most of the men do not complain for the most part.
CRAWFORD: That is all.
PINSKY: I will get into the specifics in the after show. I am going to keep Lavell here, break him a little a bit. See what else he got to say
that will make me shake my head some more.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, have you done a vagina rejuvenation?
PINSKY: I, actually, scrubbed in on one once.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Did you?
PINSKY: I will tell you about it. "FORENSIC FILES" is up next.
END
