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Dr. Drew
UVA Gang Rape Allegation Called Into Question; Lottery Winners with Scandalous Pasts: Pedophile Wins $3 Million
Aired December 11, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, an alleged gang rape on campus. An elite university is in shock. What really happened at the
University of Virginia?
Plus, lottery winners with scandalous, even criminal pasts. This pedophile won $3 million. Should he be allowed to keep it? Let us get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone. I am here with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. I am now here, she is in los angeles. I am in New York City.
And, we are discussing a gang rape allegation at the University of Virginia, called now into question nearly a month after "Rolling Stone" had
published an account from someone named Jackie, who insists she was assaulted by seven men at a fraternity house. They printed it. Watch
this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An explosive article in "Rolling Stone" recounting in graphic detail the alleged gang rape of a female student
named Jackie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA GANIM, CNN INVESTIGATIONS CORRESPONDENT: According to the magazine, Jackie claimed she was raped by seven men during a party at the Phi Kappa
Psi fraternity house. However, the fraternity says there was no party the night of the alleged attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GANIM: There has been nonstop speculation about whether the incident happened as Jackie recalled or if it happened at all.
ANNIE FORREST, JACKIE`S FRIEND: Everything Jackie told me over a year ago, that is exactly what was published and exactly what Jackie did tell me.
GANIM: She told "The Post," I never asked for this. What bothers me is that so many people acts like it did not happen." The attorney for UVA is
a Phi Kappa Psi fraternity tells CNN, several details in the article are just wrong. "Rolling Stone" Magazine now says they are to blame for their
unraveling story about an alleged gang rape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It seems like Jackie`s story has evolved over time, but that something traumatic did happen to her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us Anahita Sedagatfar from Anahitalive.com, Renee Herlocker, T.V. Host/Blogger; Mark Eiglarsh, Speaktomark.com. Sam, why is
it that Jackie`s story has been called into question?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HLN CO-HOST: Because there are a number of discrepancies, Dr. Drew, in her story versus the fraternity`s story, even
versus her friend`s story. So, for example, discrepancy number 1, Jackie says she was raped at a fraternity house party. The fraternity says they
did not have a party that night.
Discrepancy number 2, Jackie provided her date`s name who orchestrated the alleged attack. The university said that the name did not match anyone at
the school. Discrepancy number 3, Jackie recently provided another name of her alleged attacker. Her friends, via "The Washington Post," say she
never mentioned that name before.
Discrepancy number 4, Jackie told "Rolling Stone" that seven men raped her by penetration. Her friends via "The Washington Post" say Jackie told him
she was forced to give oral sex to five men.
And, then finally, discrepancy number 5, Jackie told the "Rolling Stone" she was bloodied and injured after the alleged attack. However, her
friends via "The Washington Post" say that when they found her, she did not appear to be physically hurt.
PINSKY: And, there -- Sam, thank you for that update. And, there were many other minor holes like she said she was led upstairs by this guy.
But, that fraternity --
SCHACHER: But there was not a staircase.
PINSKY: No staircase in that fraternity.
SCHACHER: Right. Right.
PINSKY: So, Anahita, you defend women that actually are attacked. Do you hear people frequently distorting their stories, did something happen? Is
she just cannot -- her memory formation is wrong or she making this up?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I do not know, Dr. Drew. And, that is the thing, we do not know whether or not she was really raped or if she
is just making this up for no reason. But the fact is, "Rolling Stone" magazine reported this as fact. They named names. They named the
university.
They named the fraternity, yet they failed to even attempt to contact these alleged rapists. They failed to even try to contact the three friends that
supposedly talked to this woman after she was allegedly raped. I mean that is beyond irresponsible, Dr. Drew. That is not journalism.
That is just sensationalism. And, I think what they did in this particular instance is they have made it that much harder for true victims of rape,
true victims of sexual assault to be believed. This is totally irresponsible of the magazine.
PINSKY: So, Mark, if she made it up, is she in legal trouble or for that matter now is the "Rolling Stone" in legal problem?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. Well, if she made it up and the people can identify who it is she is accusing, because that is a
big if. Apparently, "Rolling Stone" said, "We will call him Drew." That was actually the name and I know where you were, so you have an alibi.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I was with you.
EIGLARSH: Drew, so, we do not know exactly who it is. They have narrowed it down I supposed to one of, let us say, 80 guys or so in that frat house.
But, unless number 1, you can know the specific identity of the alleged perpetrator,. And, then secondly, that person somehow suffered harm as a
result, then yes, there could be a lawsuit against her for civil damages. But, sure of that --
PINSKY: Wait. Against her?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: And "Rolling Stone" --
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: Or just her?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: Both?
EIGLARSH: Both.
SEDAGHATFAR: Both of them.
EIGLARSH: Her for sure and then "Rolling Stone," it is a whole different thing. I understand why a reporter may be quick to put a story together.
But the editors, they do not say, "Hold on, darling. We need to maybe check with the other side?" I agree with Anahita. I think that was
completely irresponsible for them not to ask the other side.
SCHACHER: Right.
EIGLARSH: People -- Look, 15 people or so confessed to killing Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. A lot of people do crazy things. You need
to corroborate.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: All right, now --
EIGLARSH: She maybe telling the truth and may just be all on some details, but you have got to corroborate.
SCHACHER: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: Now, these friends that we have been talking about through "The Washington Post," three friends just spoke to ABC "World News," and we have
some footage of that. Take a look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN, ONE OF JACKIE`S FRIENDS: The first thing I saw was her sitting on a picnic table outside of this dorm and she was shaking and crying. And, it
really like she had just gone through something traumatic. The first thing that came to my mind was rape, but I was not just going to say it.
ALEX STONE, ONE OF JACKIE`S FRIENDS: I do not recall any injuries at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Renee, it is possible something happened.
RENNE HERLOCKER, T.V. HOST AND BLOGGER: Right.
PINSKY: And, that she distorted it and then now that the "Rolling Stone" has reported it, it has all gone -- gotten blown out of proportion. What
do you say?
HERLOCKER: Well, I do think that the hammer needs to come down on "Rolling Stone." I mean they pride themselves. It is "Rolling Stone" magazine, for
God sakes. And, you know, almost famous, they made a movie about it. They are facts checkers. So, they do need to have some sort of repercussion in
that sense.
But, as far as, the story goes with her and her friends, what they recall, she is a freshman, she goes to her first college party. Whether or not
there was alcohol involved or not, I mean I would like to say there was not, but I am sure there was some sort of substance use that night, and it
could be distorting her memory, I am not sure. I am not going to assume, but that does go on at those parties.
PINSKY: And, Mark, listen, as you -- well, I will give this to Anahita for that matter then let me give it to you. You must know, as well as I do,
that eyewitness accounts of anything are wildly distorted under any -- under the best of circumstances.
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And, then if somebody has a traumatic experience --
EIGLARSH: As we learned --
PINSKY: What is that Mark?
SEDAGHATFAR: They are notorious with unreliable sources --
EIGLARSH: Yes, as we learned with Ferguson.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: There is a huge difference --
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
EIGLARSH: -- between believability and accuracy. Someone could look believable but be incredible inaccurate. But understand also, I have
prosecuted and defended these rape cases, and it is rare that all details are exactly as it occurs. People`s memories are messed up.
PINSKY: Yes. And, it is so traumatizing. Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: And, Anahita, that is my point.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: Under the best of circumstances, it is going to be distorted in some way.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, that is possible. It could be that these witnesses or people that talked to her may not remember. It is not that they may be
lying, but the point here is, Dr. Drew, this magazine went and accused some men of gang rape. You do not just do that without doing a simple fact
check.
PINSKY: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, I think that is the issue here.
PINSKY: All right.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, by the way, I do not know if you remember, "Rolling Stone" magazine published that huge cover page with the Boston bomber
suspect. Remember glorifying him like he was some rock star? So, this is not like uncommon for this magazine to engage in this type of behavior.
EIGLARSH: A different issue.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think they are irresponsible.
PINSKY: So, Anahita --
EIGLARSH Different issue. I do not think it has to do with it.
PINSKY: Anahita, has an issue with the "Rolling Stone." But, your point is well taken, if, in fact, it diminishes people who have been trauma
survivors or victims to coming forward, because they are fearful of being caught in the maelstrom.
All right, next, more from the women who know Jackie and what they recall about that night in question. Remember, it was two years ago.
And, later, a stranger reveals a cheater to her unaware companion. That is right, at an NFL game, a guy passes a note and gets involved. There is the
note. Was this any of his business? We will get into, later.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA GANIM, CNN INVESTIGATIONS CORRESPONDENT: In the article, Jackie says that she was brought here by a fraternity brother for a party at the Phi
Kappa Psy House. Once she got inside, she says he took her upstairs to a darkroom where she was attacked and raped by seven men, while two others
looked on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: While there do appeared to be holes in her story, no survivor I have ever spoken to tells a straight, linear account
of their story for years -- until years and years after therapy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and the behavior bureau. Beginning with Emily Roberts, Psychotherapist; Spirit, talk show host, psychotherapist; Karamo
Brown, host of #Ownshow on Oprah.com.
And, we are, of course, discussing the UVA student who reported a gang rape at a frat house. It happened two years ago. "Rolling Stone" subjectively
published that story last month and now discrepancies are causing her story to be questioned. And, Sam, how are people responding on Twitter?
SCHACHER: Well, the hash tag #IstandwithJackie, Dr. Drew has been trending on Twitter all week. Let me give you some example. So, I have a tweet
here from Morga Chorg. She writes, "This is why survivors do not come forward."
From Jen Lucy, she tweets, "Rape is still rape. We believe you. And, it is not your fault." Another opinion from Beth Texas Girl, "I stand with
Jackie, great. But who stands with the men falsely accused of rape?"
PINSKY: Well, that -- those tweets are perfectly exemplary of the complexities of this case.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: So, Emily, let me start with you. I mean, first of all, for me when I read those tweets, the first thing I think is, everybody. If
something happens to you, I do not care if you question whether it was rape, maybe it was not, maybe it was, go to an emergency room and have a
forensic exam and make a report. If it just even crosses your mind, I wonder if that was something, it should not happen. Get the data.
SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew, can I give you a statistic, though?
PINSKY: Please.
SCHACHER: Because here is the thing. In regard to college females, 80 percent of those rapes or sexual assaults go unreported. And, 80 percent -
-
PINSKY: That is what I am talking about. I know that.
SCHACHER: Right and 80 percent of the time, the offender -- they know the offender.
PINSKY: To me that is incredible.
SCHACHER: Because of the shame.
PINSKY: And, Emily, do not you agree with me? I mean, I know there is shame, but we need to empower women to step up and get the data. This was
two years ago.
EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: At least get it. Because what will happen is if you have the data now and you change your mind later on, at least we
have it down. We do not have to say who the alleged rapist was. You have proof to say that, "You know what? There was an attack here." Without it,
it is her word versus his and that can be complicated.
PINSKY: And, then we get into victim shaming.
ROBERTS: Right.
PINSKY: And, it is also complicated -- Emily, I am going to stay with you, because people, like I have discussed in the last break, people distort the
traumas in all kinds of ways.
ROBETS: All kinds of ways, absolutely. It could have happened and it could also be that may be something happened and it was not as
traumatizing. It is always going to be traumatizing, but it was not the way that she reported it, right? We do not know.
So, having an accurate reading from -- I mean, accurate reading is definitely important and it really helps her, though. Because -- Again, if
you are traumatized, what is going to happen. You are not going to say exactly what happened. No one does.
PINSKY: Karamo, I hear you questioning something in the background. Tell me, what you are thinking.
KARAMO BROWN, TELEVISION HOST: Yes, definitely, because I am one of those people that I support Jackie. When it comes to memory and it comes to
trauma, there is always going to be inconsistencies depending on what you are focusing on in that moment.
ROBERTS: Agree. Yes.
BROWN: If she was focusing on one thing that was happening, she might not be able to remember everything else. And, we are going here and we are
shaming her. And, the reason that people do not want to step up is because too many times when people do step up, campuses do not support them.
People do not support them. You do not know the modus of your friends and people turn on them and women are scared. And, I am tired of them being
re-victimized over and over again.
ROBERTS: Wait. You know what? I am not shaming her when I --
BROWN: What they need to do is they need to start --
PINSKY: Emily, finish.
ROBERTS: I am not shaming her. At the end of the day, here is what the problem is. She did not go to the police and I understand that, because
you know what? I cannot even imagine what it is like to be in her shoes. She went to a reporter. She did not go to the police. She did not go to
do something about it. She went to the reporter, who distorted --
BROWN: But, unfortunately, we live in a time where we believe that media will protect us. That is where we live. Everyone goes on social media,
goes on Facebook when they want to tell something --
SCHACHER: Well, I have a point.
ROBERTS: But she went to the --
SCHACHER: Hold up. Hold up.
BROWN: Because they wanted to get support.
SCHACHER: She did go to the dean, though. She did not just go straight to a reporter. She did go to the dean.
ROBERTS: She did and they gave her three options.
SCHACHER: Right.
ROBERTS: They said that she could go and report it to the police. They could report it to the school, but she decided to do nothing. And, you
know what? I do not know what I would do in her shoes. I really do not, because it could be very traumatic for her to come out. This is already
traumatic for her and her family.
PINSKY: All right.
ROBERTS: She has to relive it.
PINSKY: Spirit is going to cast her vote in a second. And, I will just say, we live in a time now when women feel much more comfortable at coming
forward. What we have been reporting all week, but the Cosby story and that is continuing.
People are continuing to feel comfortable to step up. So, it is kind of a different time when -- and of course, in the response to it, women have
been shamed publicly. I mean people taking aim at poor Janice. And, you are right, Karamo, there is still a certain amount of shaming that goes on.
Spirit, what say you?
SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/T.V. HOST: You know, and I think that the hardest thing here, Dr. Drew, is that we have to remember is that when you
talk about any kind of eyewitness testimony, no matter whether it is rape, something that is traumatic or not traumatic, the mind does not record like
a tape recorder.
PINSKY: Right.
CLANTON: So, the details are not going to be consistent, especially when it is not -- you know, you have to recall. Recall does not work in the
same way as we say, we just going to hit the rewind button and then we are going to be able to speak about these things exactly as they have happen.
And, as years go by and as people come in and take the testimony or the way that it is asked or the way that it is presented. Memory is a very
interesting thing. And, so, if we do not understand those things, we look at this poor young lady and we go, "You know what? Too much of the story
does not make sense. It did not happen. Let it go."
PINSKY: Right. So, again, we are billing the case why women got to get the data collected up front, because there is really three big
possibilities that come forward when you laid or report something. One is people fabricate things that happens. People distort things. That happens
a lot.
People misreport things, even though they believed they have an accurate memory. And, the people who have accurate memories. And, you can fall
into any of those camps, but people are not going to know, which you are in because the data was never collected. I want to show you, guys, also more
from Jackie`s friends as they explain why they did not take her to the police. Here is from ABC News
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN: The reason that we did not go to the police was because Jackie did not want to.
UNIDENTIFIED ABC NEWS MALE HOST: Jackie said to you, "I do not want to go to police? She said those words to you?
RYAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED ABC NEWS MALE HOST: They attribute to you in this article as saying, "She is going to be the girl who cried rape and will never be
allowed into any frat party again." Did you ever say that?
KATHRYN HENDLEY, ONE OF JACKIE`S FRIEND: No.
UNIDENTIFIED ABC NEWS MALE HOST: So, this is not true?
HENDLEY: No.
END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is another inconsistency, Sam.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: And, that is a very rough one. I do not know why she felt or somebody told her that she should not go to the cops. The medical system
is there to help you, not to shame you. They will help you, I promise.
CLANTON: Well, you know what? You are already ashamed.
PINSKY: Yes. But, that is not how it works in the hospital.
CLANTON: You are already ashamed at that point.
PINSKY: They are there to capture you and support you and help you with this. They deal with this all the time. The last thing they are going to
do is add to the shame. They want to help you. Come on, now.
CLANTON: If you never dealt with the experience, Dr. Drew, the experience in and of itself is a very shaming and shameful experience. And you are
right, the medical community does everything that they can to make you feel better.
But if you have never been in a situation where you have laid on a table and had to get a rape kit done, where you have had to experience in and of
itself is a very shaming and shameful experience. And you are right, the medical community does everything that they can to make you feel better.
But if you have never been in a situation where you have laid on a table and had to get a rape kit done, where you have had to have pubic hair
pulled from your body with a comb. And, you have had to tell a story over and over again and you have had to have yourself laid out exhibited to
people when you have already been laid out and have been messed over. I mean it is a really traumatic experience in and of itself, no matter how
wonderful or caring the individuals are to do it.
PINSKY: But Spirit, I did a lot of these way back and when before we really even had the degree of sensitivity to this material that we have
now. And, we would bring somebody like you in the room with us to help acknowledge that fact.
CLANTON: It does not change it.
PINSKY: Acknowledge how difficult it is.
CLANTON: It does not change it.
BROWN: How about we start teaching our viewers --
ROBERTS: It does not change what happened. And, what happened was that they were violated. They were absolutely violated. So, let us help them
in any way that we can. Providing them with free counseling, providing them with the rape kit, just in case they do want to go forward with the
investigation. They do not have to go forward with the investigation, but having that information on a medical file is so important.
SCHACHER: We need to change the culture too --
BROWN: Exactly, changing the culture is important --
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Because, so many of these young women think, "Oh, God! I had a drink or I wore a really provocative dress. Oh, my God, I deserve it."
PINSKY: You are right. I got to break.
SCHACHER: And, then they feel guilty.
PINSKY: The issue of the college campus culture has got to change, too. We reported on that. That is a hole on the segment. But, first, we are
going to switch gears to the story about pedophile who wins $3 million in the lottery. Question is, does he deserve to keep it? If he keeps it,
what is he going to do with it?
And, later, a woman is cheating is called out by a stranger. Why did he even care, why did he get involved? Do you think he should have got
involved? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: For 12 years, Timothy Poole`s mug shot has appeared on Florida`s sex offender registry, indicating he is a sexual
predator. But, now the state has taken a new photo of Poole, holding up a $3 million check after he struck it rich on a Florida lottery scratch off
ticket. Back in 1999, deputy has arrested a much different looking Timothy Poole after a family friend claimed Poole had molested the boy since he was
9 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Through the years I have known him, I have seen no information of anything like that. He is a very passive person, very
kind, giving. I think that is why he won, because I mean it is Christmas time and the dude deserves a break, man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Anahita, Karamko and Renee. Should that convicted sex offender be able to collect a $3 million lottery prize. Sam, give us
more details.
SCHACHER: OK. So, Dr. Drew, Timothy Poole as you just learned, he won $3 million in the lottery. Then his picture was posted on the Florida state
lottery`s website. And, that is when the people noticed him and recognized him as a convicted sex offender.
So, in 1999, he pled guilty to sexual battery of a child under 12 and he was sentenced to time served. Now, he went back to jail from 2003 to 2006
because guess what? He was not going to his sex offender counseling courses. But, after he was released in 2006, he has had no other offenses.
PINSKY: All right. We do not know if he ever really did the treatment. Karamo take a look at this Facebook comment from Marcello. She says,
quote, "He has plenty of money to lure those kids now." And, also -- we have had lots of quotes like that, mostly on Twitter and Facebook. And, my
question to you, Karamo is do you think having the money will empower him to offend again?
BROWN: Yes, I completely believe that. As we learned from Bill Cosby, when you have power and you have money, you have an appetite for
destruction. And, if he was going to commit this crime when he was poor, you can be damn sure that he is going to commit this crime when he has
money in his pocket.
He would not even attend mandatory sex offender classes. That lets you know that he believes he is above the law. I fear for every potential
victim that might be coming in his path, because this man has his money now. They need to take away this money and give it to every person who has
ever suffered at the hands of a child molester.
PINSKY: Renee, do you see it differently?
HERLOCKER: Well, first of all, kudos for those who were able to recognized him from his previous mug shot.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes.
HERLOCKER: I do not know about that. But I am all for second chances and if he indeed would have gone through the treatment and, you know, done what
he need to --
PINSKY: He did? We do not know. He might have.
BROWN: But, he did not --
HERLOCKER: He might have.
SCHACHER: He did not. He did not, Dr. Drew. \
HERLOCKER: Yes.
SCHACHER: That is why he went to jail.
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: Well, we do not know if he did in jail or afterwards. Who knows? He might have been treated subsequently. That is all I am saying. I agree
with Karamo, though. And, the fact that he did not was a very bad sign. Renee, finish your thoughts.
HERLOCKER: Yes. And, I just think it is strange that Florida is not changing the legislation, because part of the state lottery, the money that
is made from state lottery goes back to schools. What is the irony in that? I mean it is just kind of disgusting and they need to change it.
Change the law.
PINSKY: Anahita, does he have a right to be able to play the lottery? And, if he has that right, does he have the right to do with the money he
collects whatever he wants?
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. I know this infuriates a lot of people, but he served his time and he is free just like anybody else to
play the lottery and win the lottery. And, I do not believe there should be any type of law that would require a sexual predator who wins the
lottery to pay the victim.
PINSKY: What?
SEDAGHATFAR: I will tell you why, Dr. Drew. It is your favorite argument, the slippery slope.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Oh.
SEDAGHATFAR: Because what if the guy gets out of jail -- hold on. What if the guy gets out of jail and gets a huge salary? What if he inherits money
from his parents who died or someone in his family?
Does that money then go to the victim? How much of that money? Who makes that decision? So, I think this child, this victim might be better off
just try to sue him in civil court, try to get monetary damages, because we do not want --
PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait, Anahita. So, you are saying he hopes -- you hope he gets money, so the victims can then come
around and sue him civilly? Is there any statute on that? Are they likely to be able to win the money?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not know what the statute of limitations is in Florida. Sometimes if the victim is under 18, then the statue is extended. But,
yes, I think that would be the right way to go about trying to collect these winnings. But to set a law that requiring that these winnings just
because you are a sexual predator to go to your victim, it sets a very dangerous precedent.
BROWN: I disagree --
PINSKY: Hang on.
BROWN: I disagree whole heartedly. We are telling people if you have done something bad, you can have that --
SEDAGHATFAR: How much of that money should go to the victim in
BROWN: All of it. He molested a child. He should not be living in the --
SEDAGHATFAR: Should his salary go to the victim?
BROWN: He should not be living in the lap of luxury.
SEDAGHATFAR: Should his salary go to the victim?
PINSKY: Hey, Karamo.
BROWN: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: Should his salary go to the victim and how much of his salary should go.
PINSKY: I want to ask Karamo something. Karama, here is what I think about the slippery slope argument. Slippery slope, no. But, is there a
principle that is guiding your position? Is the principle that somebody who has been exploited children, abuse d children has to make an amends the
rest of their life even if they served? Tell me, what is the principle?
SEDAGHATFAR: Not practical.
PINSKY: What is the principle?
BROWN: Completely, that is the principle. Let us think about that. This is a child whose life is going to be damaged. The trauma he is going to
have to deal with emotionally, physically. He is going to have so much to deal with the rest of his life.
And, while he is dealing with that, this man is going to be living in his plush life, living in his great house and doing this again. I can almost
guaranty that. And, that is wrong. We need to be setting a precedent this is not right.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. All right, Sam -- hang on, Anahita. Sam, go ahead.
SCHACHER: But, there has been some legislation in place. I know that in Massachusetts, I am not sure if this law has passed, but they were trying
to advocate to not allow convicted sex offenders to collect on lottery earnings because there was one convicted sex offender who -- it was proven
used his earnings to then lure new victims. So, it is not that unpractical, Anahita.
BROWN: Exactly.
SEDAGHATFAR: They are not going to pass that law because it is unconstitutional and I will tell you why, because at one point -- what
other moneys would these victims be entitled to. Their salaries? Their paychecks?
And, who would make that decision? The courts would be overburdened, listening to these types of cases. OK. He inherits money from his
deceased father, should there be a percentage awarded to that victim? Who makes that decision? All of this leads to a dangerous, slippery slope, Dr.
Drew.
SCHACHER: Slippery slope.
PINSKY: Slippery slope, everybody.
SEDAGHATFAR: As much as you hate it.
PINSKY: Slippery slope, watch out for that.
SCHACHER: Dot, dot, dot.
PINSKY: Be careful, slippery slope. I do not want to get involved in any slippery slopes.
SEDAGHATFAR: You do not.
PINSKY: Renee, let me ask you this. You were all for the second chances and I believe in treatment, too. But is not there a way to sort of prove
yourself and in the meantime, do not we have an obligation -- I mean let us put it this why. To prove they have to prove that they are in the
treatment, prove that they are getting better. But, when you have money or not, these re-offenders are going to reoffend. Do not you agree?
HERLOCKER: Yes. I definitely agree with you, Dr. Drew. And I also want to just touch on, you know, the victims in all of this. Who is to even say
that they would want any part of this money? I mean, again, this is going to have to rehash a lot of their memories.
PINSKY: But, it is a slippery slope. It is a slippery slope.
HERLOCKER: There you go.
PINSKY: The attorneys might want it. I do not know. Anahita, what do you say?
BROWN: I said donate it to charities. I said donate it to charities.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: Where do you stop it, though? No one can answer the question, where do you stop it. What about his salary from his job?
.
BROWN: You do not. Let him be broke.
PINSKY: I am trying to get the principle going.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.
PINSKY: All right. here we go. Thank you, panel. Next up, I am going to talk to another -- an actual convicted sex offender who has some thoughts
about this case. He is here. He is going to tell me his thoughts.
And, later, a stranger takes it upon himself to bust a cheater after spying on her text messages. And, now he has to defend himself on social media.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Timothy Poole claimed his prize and posed for a picture on the Florida lottery`s website. And, that is when people
realized he is the same guy, who pleaded guilty 12 years ago to assaulting two boys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: For 12 years, Timothy Poole`s mug shot has appeared on Florida`s sex offender registry, indicating he is a sexual
predator. We found Poole employed as a cab driver at his mom is taxi business.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He is very passionate person, very kind, giving. I think that is why he won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Emily, Spirit and Mark. If you are kind and giving, you win the lottery? We are talking about the convicted sex
offender that had just collected a $3 million lottery prize.
Now, you understand he is legally allowed to win, but you do not seem to want to see him to enjoy this money or to sort of have the benefits of --
given who he is, he should not be able to benefit from the lottery. Mark, does that make sense to us? Is this some sort of weird sense of justice
that we all have that we cannot allow this guy to go on with his life?
EIGLARSH: I understand why people are reacting emotionally. He harmed at least one, probably many children, and so we do not want anything good to
happen to him. And, for all those people who say he is done his time and somehow he has done his treatment, assuming he did. I ask you, would you
have him ever babysit your kids?
SCHACHER: No.
PINSKY: Oh, my God!
EIGLARSH: So, here is the answer to that.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: So, drew, let me say this. It is actually good news that he won the lottery, because if there is still time, the people who have been
harmed by him could now sue civilly to collect money.
The only reason why they did not is, because as we are telling people in Florida or anywhere, you cannot squeeze water from a rock. You do not go
through civil litigation unless there is, you know, money at the end of the rainbow. So, now, he has money, if he ever harms, people can sue and take
it away or if the statue of limitations has not run, people can still collect money for damages.
SCHACHER: Good.
PINSKY: We have a Facebook friend, Nancy. She says, quote, "Will convenience markets start asking for arrest records before you can play the
lottery? So, where does this end, Spirit? Is it a slippery slope like I know Mark will say --
CLANTON: No.
PINSKY: -- and Anahita said in the last block.
(LAUGHING)
CLANTON: No. And, you know, it is funny. I mean I am hoping that my cold medicine is like distorting what I am hearing from you, guys. I just think
that ity is so interesting, like he has done his time. It is what it is.
Morally, you probably hate that he won, but no, he should have the right to spend his money and celebrate like anybody else who wins. I mean, sorry,
that is what happened. And, I think that the slippery slope here is how litigious we are telling people to be.
Like track this guy for the rest of his life so that if anything ever good happens to him, then the victim can go after him. Are we going to say that
for domestic violence victims?
Are we going to say that for people who have been assaulted by criminals? Are we going to now continue to say, "Hey, if anybody ever turns their life
around or comes into good luck in any way, shape or form, get that money from them?
HERLOCKER: I disagree.
EIGLARSH: Wait, wait, wait.
PINSKY: You have a point. Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: That was not the point. Hold on, Spirit. The point was let us assume -- not assume, he was convicted. So, he harmed forever irreparably
a child.
SCHACHER: Right.
EIGLARSH: OK? He raped a child. He molested a child. And, the only reason why the child did not sue civilly at the time, for the years of bad
fortune that they ear are going to suffer, psychological damage is he did not have money. Now he does. I am not telling people to do something they
should have already done before.
PINSKY: Mark, I want to --
CLANTON: Hey, listen, as a therapist, I hear you. I hear you.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Spirit, I understand.
EIGLARSH: OK.
PINSKY: I get you, too. And, then Spirit, you know, we are trained to empathize with the person who we are trying to help. I have tried to help
people who have these proclivities. And, I got on the phone, Derek Logue. He is a registered sex offender, founder of oncefallen.com. And, you say,
Spirit is more on the money here, that this guy ought to be left alone to live his life?
DEREK LOGUE, REGISTERED SEX OFFENDER/FOUNDER OF ONCEFALLEN.COM: Well, of course, the man should be left alone. The man served his time. How you
feel about how the system played out as far as his conviction is beside the point. The man served time. He got out. He spent the last eight years of
him free, working, you know, beating the odds.
There was a report just on him a couple of months ago, this reporter trying to make him lose his job. And now some good fortune came his way and he
should be left alone, simply put.
PINSKY: Derek, my problem is the fact that he would not comply with the treatment recommendations of the court. Do you think that he probably did
get some treatment and that we should be sort of sympathetic because of that? Or let us say he did not get treatment, should not we be a little
more circumspect.
LOGUE: Well, you know, the man based upon what I have read from the story, the man says that he did not do it. And, if I was an innocent man and I
went to prison for something I did not do, I would not cooperate either. That is besides the point.
Florida does have treatment programs for registrants and they all have mandatory treatment during your time incarcerated and they go through an
evaluation. You know, everybody goes through civil commitment evaluation in Florida. And, so he has been exposed to treatment. And, obviously he
has been out for eight years and has not reoffended. So, I do not see what is the problem.
PINSKY: Derek, do you have you --
SCHACHER: Have you --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam. What is that?
SCHACHER: There is evidence, Dr. Drew. There is evidence that he did perform sex acts on these two children and he was convicted.
PINSKY: Yes. And, he was convicted.
CLANTON: So, what?
SCHACHER: But, I understand that.
CLANTON: Whether he got the treatment or he did not, what does that have to do with him winning the lotto?
SCHACHER: That is not what I am responding to, Spirit. Hold up. I am responding to the fact that the gentleman that we have on the phone said,
well, he claims he is innocent. He is not innocent because there is evidence that proves that he is not innocent and he pled guilty to it.
CLANTON: I agree.
LOGUE: There is a lot of people that get falsely convicted all the time.
CLANTON: Not in this case.
SCHACHER: There is a lot of evidence.
PINSKY: Derek, let me ask you this. Have you been the object of this sort of anger that people that feel that, you know, if you are once a
perpetrator, the rest of your life you have to pay for that crime.
LOGUE: Well, yes, of course there is a few people who say that stuff. A lot of times they are stirred by a lot of these emotional stories. I can
understand that there is a lot of really bad cases, but for every one of those cases, there is a lot of individuals like myself who committed a
crime in the past who have moved on in with their lives.
I have been offense free for almost 12 years now and, you know, I have done everything I could possibly could to try to make amends and to move on with
my life. But we are not really allowed to because of the laws that have passed against us.
PINSKY: Al right, Derek, thank you. I want to hear from Emily. I have not yet heard from her. I know you are dying to say something there. Go
ahead.
ROBETS: Well, they should have to suffer. I mean they have ruined someone is life forever. This child will forever harmed. This child will never be
the same again.
And, the other children, because it is pretty likely that he offended and hurt other children, as well beside these two children, because around 75
percent of people who offend do it again. So, we do not know. He could have done it again.
PINSKY: All right, we got to go. Next up, a stranger gets involved in the life of a pregnant woman and her male companion and social media is having
a field day with this one. I will explain it. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hey, bro, I do not know you and you do not know me. When you get home, check your girl`s phone. She has been texting
Jason saying she wishes she was with him all day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is the note. An NFL fan passed to the man in front of him when he noticed his girlfriend texting another guy. The note has exploded
on social media with critics say, "He should have minded his own business." What do you think?
This is our most tweeted story of the day. The NFL fan says he would have felt like a "coward" had he not given that man a heads up. Sam, that man
and his note are creating a ton of activity on social media.
SCHACHER: We set a record. Since we posted the story on Facebook based on clicks and shares, it reached 139,000 people. And, the reaction is
polarizing. You have some people saying he is a hero, other people are describing him as a busy body, even suggesting that by him notifying this
couple that he potentially is putting this pregnant woman and her baby in harm`s way.
Kim writes, "None of his business. He could have caused the death of a woman and child. Not cool." Donna writes, "None of his business. If that
couple had that kind of problem, it is not up to some stranger to clue them in." Christina writes, "Cannot wait to see them on Maury."
PINSKY: Hey, bro, what do you think? Mark?
SCHACHER: Mark, that is you.
EIGLARSH: I am the bro? I did not look. Look at the pretty gals there, yes. I am not condemning the guy. Who is opposed to this, like Bill
Clinton? What he did was he had a conscience. What happened was, what Drew his attention to her, apparently somebody criticized the amount of
fries that they give you for the price. And, then, she said something like, "Well, it is like his, you know what."
SCHACHER: Yes.
EIGLARSH: She insulted his member, his unit, his Johnson.
PINSKY: His manliness.
EIGLARSH: Yes. And, that caused the guy -- it is like karma coming right back. So, I think it is in his discretion. She is writing this right in
front of him. And, you know what? Too bad. I do not have a problem with this.
PINSKY: Anahita, what say you? I mean after all we do not know the relationship between that guy and the woman. Maybe that is her parole
officer or something.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly. I think this guy needed to mind his own business. Because, first of all, why was he even reading this woman`s text messages
to begin with? You are at a game, watch the game.
And, second of all, you are right. He did not know what the relationship was between this two. He did not even know who this girl was texting.
Maybe that was her brother. It could have been her gay best friend. It could have been somebody else, a relative. He did not know.
EIGLARSH: He was right, Anahita. Anahita, he was right. His gut was absolutely right.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, we do know that.
EIGLARSH: It was everything that he thought it was. And, would not you want to know?
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: I would want to know.
SCHACHER: Yes. Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: I would want to know. But, I would want to know by somebody who knew us, because we do not know what happened with this case. We do
not know --
CLANTON: No, you would not.
EIGLARSH: Anahita, sounds to me --
CLANTON: No, you would not.
EIGLARSH: Sounds to me there is a slippery slope argument about it. I think you would want to know and he wanted her to know.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, did it turn out to be true. I do not even know.
PINSKY: Yes, the slippery slope. I think Anahita likes being sneaky. She does not want anyone getting in the way of that. But, let me ask you, why
do people get so upset about this case? It is bizarre to me. I would think you would want to know.
SCHACHER: Right.
CLANTON: You know what? People ever want to know until it is them. Everybody is saying he is a busy body. I am sorry. Let me tell you. Let
me put up my husband`s photo and have him put up mine, too. Because, I think is so funny, in this day and age, we are so wired to just say, "Oh,
adultery, mind your business. It is nobody else`s business."
But if more people did this and more people stopped tolerating this, I bet the infidelity rates would go down. And, if Jason is just a brother or a
parole officer or a cousin, then she should have no problems opening up her phone to say, "Honey, it was Jason, you know him. That is my father. That
is my brother.
PINSKY: Exactly.
SCHACHER: Amen, Spirit. Amen.
PINSKY: I am with Spirit. No slippery slope here. Back with my panel after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): It is a Bears-Lions game at thanksgiving. So, I am sitting here. In front of me is this girlfriend who looks
pregnant and the guy. The guy behind is basically saying, "Whoa, she is texting another guy". So in the midst of all this, he gives a note to
boyfriend saying this.
"Hey, bro, I do not know you and you do not know me. When you get home, check your girl`s phone. She has been texting Jason saying she wishes she
was with him all day."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Anahita, Spirit and Mark. The NFL fan believes the pregnant woman sitting in front of him is a cheater. He calls her out and
a note he passes to her companion. You just saw that note. But there is some points we cannot confirm as we talked about in the last segment.
We do not know for sure if the pregnant woman and man were together as a couple. We do not know that he is the baby`s father. The pregnant woman
was reportedly texting someone named Jason. We do not know who Jason is.
But Spirit, you say, good on him any way. He might be adding information because of social media that could reduce infidelity or perhaps allow them
to deal more realistically with their interpersonal problems.
CLANTON: You know, it has but it is not about the social media. We just get to be a part of this thing. This is about a good Samaritan seeing
something and saying, "Hey, you know what? I think this person needs to know." Now, if it is not his person, no harm, no foul. But, if it is, he
needs to know and he definitely needs to think DNA test. I am just saying.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: And, Mark, the way people react to this, the mind your own business thing, I find it really bizarre. Would you want to know? What
would you do?
EIGLARSH: Well, of course I would want to know. And, I will tell you this. The people who are getting upset think they have a good thing going.
They do not love their wives unconditionally like you and I do. They stray, and they do not want anybody messing up their little gig.
And, the bottom line is, if they somehow cannot love their wives unconditionally and they are cheating and living a lie, get the hell out of
a relationship and leave these people alone. It is that simple.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Anahita, slipperyslopelive.com?
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: No slippery slope here, Dr. Drew. What I think is you also have to question why this guy decided to take a picture of that note and
take a picture of that woman and post it on his Facebook.
EIGLARSH: Proof.
SEDAGHATFAR: I mean is this about him trying to catch a cheater and help this man?
EIGLARSH: Proof.
SEDAGHATFAR: Did he want to just post like a really cool story on Facebook to get a lot of likes.
PINSKY: Interesting.
SCHACHER: Perhaps.
PINSKY: Sam, what say you? You are bringing the social media. What are they saying? What do you say?
SCHACHER: I am sure -- I mean people love the instant gratification to see what -- even if they have ten friends or 10,000 friends that like them on
Facebook, they want to see their reaction. So, I am sure that was his intent. But, at the same time, let us not kill the messenger. If you are
going to cheat on your spouse, you are running that risk yourself.
PINSKY: Anahita is so proud of herself for thinking of that one.
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: That was a good one, right?
PINSKY: It was a good one. That is right. That was a good one.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: But, I think -- Listen. I am always surprised by people -- women do this a lot when they find out their husband or present partner has been
cheating is they blame the person they are cheating with. Do not blame the messenger, right?
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Such a weird impulse.
EIGLARSH: How about blaming the athletes? If the game was anymore interesting, this guy would not have been focusing on the tweets.
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.
PINSKY: All right, guys. Thank you very much. DVR us then you are able to watch any time. We appreciate your time for watching us. And "FORENSIC
FILES" begins right after our program. We will see you next time.
END
