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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Fallout Continues over CIA Interrogation Report; Continuing Look at Confrontations with Armed Security Guards; Preview of This Evening's CNN Special on a T-Rex Skeleton

Aired December 11, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN ANCHOR: And we are just in our hour away from the CIA which is going to have a press briefing talking about this torture report that's just in hour away. The CIA Director John Brennan going to come out and address specifics of that report and you've heard the grim details about the Senate's findings on CIA torture in the wake of 9/11. But here's what wasn't in that report, recommendations on how to prevent torture from happening again, and what the CIA is interrogation rules should be.

My next guest has some very strong opinions on this. Bob Kerrey is former Democratic senator who served on the Intelligence Committee for years. He also served on the 9/11 commission, he is a former Navy Seal, awarded a Medal of Honor. Senator Kerrey, welcome. You have so much experience putting together these reports. The Intelligence Committee, their job that takes the high road to really look at what's going on and make a clear assessment.

Do you think that was done in this case or do you think that the report -- the 500 page synopses you've read is flawed?

BOB KERREY, FORMER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR: No, I don't think they got that accomplished. And do I think it's flawed. It reads much more like the statement of a prosecutor than it does a report on what happened. Remember, the stopped in 2005, this is nine years ago when all those was going on. And it's all been out in the press and in part stopped as a consequence of that. So no, I -- look we had a big intelligence failure with a spy called (inaudible), we had big intelligence failure on 9/11.

And unlike this report, we didn't say "Oh we can get all -- we can't get all information by reading documents." We met with the principals, we interviewed the principals, often times under oath in order to make sure that we had it right. And this case they didn't. They claimed, well, I've read 6 million documents. But some of those documents are just e-mails.

FEYERICK: Do you believe that it lacks context that without actual interviews, you'll never going to get into the truth of what was happening and why it was happening.

KERREY: Well, it's certainly is not the definitive history as many of the members of this committee have described it. This is not history not history. No historian would write a story just looking at documents if the people who are involved in the story are still alive.

FEYERICK: Right.

KERREY: And that's exactly what they did. And as a consequence, the Republicans are not on it. And as consequence, you don't have a set of recommendations that informs the CIA what are they allowed to do. I mean we say to them it's OK if you drop a drone on them and kill them, that's all right, we don't object to that. But if you do those intense interrogation techniques, we're appalled that we're going to shut that down.

FEYERICK: You know, it's also interesting because after 9/11, many people really were -- had the sentiment that we cannot ever let this happen again, that there have to be ways to prevent it. Get whatever kind of human intelligence you can from people. But what this report did not do is it didn't make any sort of recommendations, guidelines. Do you think on some levels, it's irrelevant or do you think because the new enemy doesn't have a centralize military, but is all over the place, that there are techniques that should be employed. What about recommendations?

KERREY: Look, I think recommendations are enormously important because you are going to have to interrogate people. The question is how far can you go and right now their going -- they'll air on the side of safety. And imagine that I've got somebody in a room who's a member of Boko Haram who could tell me where those 40 girls are but won't. What do I do? Do I basically say, "I'm not going to use any pressure on this guy because I just heard from Congress -- and said that it's awful. Anything that can be, that could come out later, an e-mail message or anything like that is going to be exposed, and as a consequence I might get prosecuted."

So they'll pull up short it seems to me without a set of instructions. They have clear instructions on drones, they know it's OK to fire a drone and kill people but it's not OK at the moment to do what they have to do on human intelligence which is to get people to tell them things that they often times don't want to tell them.

FEYERICK: And let's talk about the impact on agents.

KERREY: Right.

FEYERICK: On the people who are trying to keep the country safe, doing what they believe is within their power to do in terms of getting the kind of human intelligence that they want to prevent an attack. What sort of an affect does this criticism have on these individuals? Do they believe in hindsight that it should've been done differently?

KERREY: Look, I think these men and women are pros. They know what the deal is. Their board of directors often times doesn't support them like they should. They're in it because they love their country, they're in it because they believe in the values of this nation. And I think most of them are up, by the way, to say we're glad John McCain came forward in 2005 and shut this done because it's -- I think it is likely that we got information that enable us to keep the country safer. But we always have to ask the question is it worth the price.

So I don't object to having shut this program down, although there's real consequence to having done so. But what they don't have at the moment is instructions on what they can do. They've been told what they can't do. But I think that it's not clear at the moment what they're able to do.

FEYERICK: So ultimately this comes out to simply a partisan analysis of what was...

KERREY: Yes, and look if -- they had interviewed Jose Rodriguez who's in charge the Counter-Terrorism Center, he said, "We were a mess when started after 9/11, we didn't know how to interrogation. And we didn't resolve our conflicts," while he wouldn't defend hiring two shrinks (ph) for $40 million. So he would've come and say, "Look this is what we did along, this is how we've -- how we mess things up. But this is what we would recommend, senators that you do going forward."

FEYERICK: Yes, you wonder does this create a chilling effect. We keep talking about how there's been such a focus and so much criticism on, say, agents, on law enforcement, everybody else. Does this have a chilling effect on people's ability to do the job they believe is the right job given their mission.

KERREY: Look, it's a pretty chilly job to begin with so I don't know if it lowers the temperature in this regards. So no, I don't -- the problem is, it's unlikely that they know with certainty what they're able to do, because remember this report says, absolutely, these enhanced interrogation produced additional benefit, whatsoever. And there are people who are involve to the program who say that's not true. You may look at documents and recheck inclusion but you didn't ask us and we would have provided testimony that it didn't.

And they're not arguing, Rodriguez is not arguing that McCain's legislation in 2005 was wrong. What he's arguing is with the conclusion that it produced additional benefits. So what they're, I think again what they need are set of instructions. And you can only do it if you interviewed the principals. You can only do it if it's Democrats and Republicans together. If you resist the temptation to be partisan, and in this case they didn't.

FEYERICK: And the interesting thing is the Republicans at least stepped down at the very beginning thinking that this was just going to be an assault and a critical assessment of the techniques that were employed under George W. Bush who was most likely shielded from everything that was really going on out there.

KERREY: Well it's -- look, I have very high regard for Republican Democrats who serve whatsoever and being on this committee is difficult. This is tens of billions of dollars of top secret efforts, it's very hard to do the work. A very hard to accomplish objective and making certain we're doing all we can to keep this country safe but not one thing more.

FEYERICK: All right, and ultimately if there were one recommendation that you would make based on what you saw, what should that be? KERREY: Well my personal interest at the moment is changing the way Congress does oversight. Its weak oversight, they need to strengthen these committees.

FEYERICK: Right, OK.

KERREY: (inaudible) set of recommendations I go in detail but congressional oversight of intelligence needs to change.

FEYERICK: Right which has been very weak. We saw that with NSA. Finally do you think that CIA Director John Brennan should resign? Do you think...

KERREY: Absolutely not. I think it would be a disaster for him to resign. I think it would be a big mistake. I don't think his report is going to do a damage to the country. We're big enough and capable enough to survive this thing. I think we'll getting beyond it, I don't -- and there's a lots in there that I found useful. It's not like I'm -- I wish they hadn't release the report. I'm just critical of the contents.

FEYERICK: OK and the way it was conducted. All right, Senator Bob Kerrey, thank you so much.

KERREY: You're welcome...

FEYERICK: We really appreciate your coming on and sharing your thoughts with us. Of course remember to tune in CNN because in less than an hour the director, John Brennan will be holding a live news conference on the torture report. Wolf Blitzer will anchor CNN's live coverage beginning at 1 P.M. Eastern.

And coming up a part two of Hired Guns, it's our year-long investigation into the wildly different and ultimate lax regulations that put guns in the hands of private security guards but, sometimes deadly results.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FEYERICK: Well, private arms guards are everywhere. You see them in shopping malls, sporting events, patrolling neighborhoods, just like police officers really. But unlike police, private guards' training and government oversight are, well, spotty at best fast. And sometimes, that can lead to tragedy.

Yesterday, we brought you part one of Hired Guns, an exclusive yearlong investigation done with the Center for Investigative Reporting. Here now is CNN's Drew Griffin with part two.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: This is former security guard Joshua Kosatschenko, taking a smoking break outside the private security company where he works in Suburban, Phoenix.

He's not carrying a gun now. But five and a half years ago, he was armed and licensed to carry by Arizona's Department of Public Safety. That turned out to be a dangerous breakdown in the system.

An investigation by CNN and the Center for Investigative Reporting found licensing requirements so varied, and in some states so lax. It can be harder to become a manicurist than an armed security guard.

DANIEL TARANGO, SHOT BY SECURITY GUARD: I woke up and I had tubes running down my throat.

GRIFFIN: Daniel Tarango today is in a wheelchair, paralyzed after being shot through his car window over stolen food.

The person that shot and nearly killed him was a then 19-year old security guard, Joshua Kosatschenko who should have never been allowed to carry a gun.

Hey Joshua, Drew Griffin with CNN, how are you? We've been trying to get in touch with you and we're doing a story on security guards. How did you become an armed security guard? How is that possible?

JOSHUA KOSATSCHENKO, FORMER SECURITY GUARD: I'd rather not comment sir.

GRIFFIN: Do you think that you should be placed in a position where I believe you're training security guards now?

KOSATSCHENKO: No comment.

GRIFFIN: It was shortly before 2:00 in the morning on June 3rd, 2009 at this convenient store in Tucson, Tarango was 18 years old. Kosatschenko was hired as a security guard, watching for shoplifters.

TARANGO: We were just going to get some food in the eve and it wasn't going to be that big of a deal.

GRIFFIN: Tarango says he waited outside in his car as his friends went in to steal food. And in the next few moments, Kosatschenko and a second security guard gave chase. A scuffle broke out. His friends ran. Tarango threw the car in reverse. Kosatschenko opened fire.

TARANGO: I just heard bah, bah, bah. When I heard the gunfire, I looked back and I just seen the glass shatter and I felt like a slight push like somebody had pushed me over.

GRIFFIN: Tarango admits he should have never been there. It turns out Kosatschenko should not have been working as an armed guard there either.

He had a criminal record as a juvenile. In fact, he had several run- ins with the juvenile system. When he was 13, he pled guilty to two counts of aggravated assault. He was deemed to felon and a juvenile delinquent. The Court Place him on probation and made him a prohibited possessor, meaning he lost his right to bare arms, at least until he turned 30.

But even with all that information, we discovered the Arizona Department of Public Safety never checked his record. Captain Steve Enteman oversees licensing for armed guards.

This guy's juvenile record apparently weren't checked. So where was the breakdown?

STEVE ENTEMAN, ARIZONA, DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Because the Arizona does not require juvenile records to be reported. On this particular instance was -- and his adjudicated record as opposed to a conviction.

It does not show that he had any kind of record whatsoever.

GRIFFIN: But certainly the check could have gone beyond that? You could look at his juvenile records.

ENTEMAN: We could look at his juvenile records had he disclosed that he had that in his background.

GRIFFIN: So as long as he lies on his application, he basically hides his entire juvenile record?

STEVEN ENTEMAN: In this particular case, yes.

GRIFFIN: The state didn't even need his juvenile record. Since Kosatschenko is a prohibited possessor banned from carrying a gun, that information would have shown up in a federal law enforcement database, but Arizona didn't check it.

The State of Arizona maybe a poster child for what's wrong with the nations lack of regulation for the armed security guard industry.

Kosatschenko's armed guard training consisted of just 16 hours, only about four of which took place at a gun range. Arizona is one of 27 states that doesn't check if someone applying to become an armed guard is prohibited from possessing a gun.

The company that hired Joshua Kosatschenko refused to talk with CNN as did Kosatschenko himself.

Yes. Drew Griffin with CNN.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, gentleman.

GRIFFIN: Hey, can I just please...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you please leave the building. We don't want to be on film.

GRIFFIN: OK.

But in a court deposition, he explained he was fully justified in shooting the fleeing shoplifters because his job was to stop them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So did you think it was smart to chase after him into the parking lot?

KOSATSCHENKO: I wouldn't necessarily say it was smart or not smart. I would say it's a danger associated with the job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the job was to arrest (inaudible) shoplifters.

KOSATSCHENKO: They are shoplifters for anything period.

GRIFFIN: Steve Amitay is a lobbyist and general counsel for the National Association of Security Companies. We met up with him at the industry's annual convention earlier this year where he continues to push for FBI background checks for anyone who wants to be an armed guard.

In nine states, even n FBI background check is not required.

STEVE AMITAY, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SECURITY COMPANIES. The public, they look to security officers in emergency situations. We want to make sure that this guy is properly vetted and he's not going to be a problem himself.

GRIFFIN: That's not going to be easy. In the last four years, there have been no fewer than eight dozen bills introduced in state legislatures and in Congress trying to control license or regulate who can become a security guards, of those most had failed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get down on the ground.

GRIFFIN: Even after the shooting of Daniel Tarango. Arizona did little to change its licensing requirements. There is this additional box which relies on applicants to disclose or check if they are a prohibited possessor, legally barred from owning a gun. But Arizona still doesn't check that federal database when someone applies to be an armed guard.

ENTEMAN: If they're not truthful with us, we can't control if a person's untruthful to us.

GRIFFIN: As for Joshua Kosatschenko, after the shooting, he was arrested for attempted murder. But ultimately, only indicted and convicted for violating the law that banned him from possessing a gun. He served probation. He now works, according to his LinkedIn page, as a corporate trainer and hiring manager for the very same security company he worked for the night he shot and nearly killed Daniel Tarango.

Do you think with the State of Arizona should have given you a license to be an armed guard when you got unarmed?

JOSHUA KOSATSCHENKO: No comment, sir.

GRIFFIN: No comment at all?

JOSHUA KOSATSCHENKO: No comment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: And Drew found that security companies want to keep wages low. So they end up with low skilled or even no skilled guards. And it seems to be up to the businesses that hire these guards to demand more in the way of training qualifications, even oversight. That was our Drew Griffin.

And now to a (inaudible), millions of years in the making. You're looking at live pictures from Chicago's Field Museum, of the largest T-Rex skeleton ever found. One of the men who discovered it when to prison and he missed out on millions that he spent to get it. Details on that just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FEYERICK: So, imagine the combination of your life's work, finding a dinosaur like no other, paleontologists dug up in yearly complete T- Rex skeleton more than 20 years ago. The excitement is captured in a new CNN film, Dinosaur 13.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER LARSON, DISCOVERED T-REX DINOSAUR: We crawl up on the cliff face and I see three articulated vertebrae and from that point on, I'm absolutely certain this is going to be the best thing we ever found and it's going to be a complete T-Rex.

NEIL LARSON, DISCOVERED T-REX DINOSAUR: He called up and said, Neil, I need you to bring a lot of plaster and 2 by 4s. What took me a day to get everything ready and I came up and I got up there with all these materials and he took me over to this big cliff and he said "Take a look." And I looked at it. I looked at him and said, "Is that T-Rex?" He said, "Yes, and I think it's all here."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: Well, that excitement soon turned to disappointment after years of legal troubles. CNN's Poppy Harlow joins us now from the Fields Museum in Chicago where the T-Rex nickname Sue, currently makes her home.

Poppy, you're standing right under her. Give us some idea how big she is...

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right.

FEYERICK: ... and just how awesome it is to be there after so much controversy.

HARLOW: Well, it is an incredible site, Deb. She's 42 feet long, 4,000 pounds is what her bones weight. The kids here are all very, very, very excited to be here and to get to see her. This is a dinosaur that is 67 million years old.

The reason Sue is so important, she's not only the most complete T-Rex ever found, 90 percent complete, in the history of the world. She is the largest. But as you mentioned, the legal battle over her is extraordinary, right?

This group of scientist found her in the hills of South Dakota back in 1990, a woman named Sue found her, that's who's she was named for, and they started excavating her. Weeks later, Deb, the feds rushed in, the FBI, the Department of Justice, they take Sue. She's held in a storage house in cardboard boxes for seven years while the legal sides fight it over. Ultimately, it was decided that the people that found Sue ultimately did not own her and she belongs to the government and the land owner at that time. She was auctioned off for $8.4 million, and she landed here at the Field Museum.

I have to say the people in South Dakota that found her obviously incredibly disappointed. You'll see that in the film. But they're are also really happy that she got to come here. And hey kids, you want to come over? Who's coming over? Because these kids get to see her and they get to study her and a lot of science has been gleaned from her, that she's 28 years old, how quickly Sue grew.

So, it is a great thing that she has finally landed somewhere where these kids can see her. But a lot of controversies certainly leading to the ultimate home for Sue. Tonight at 9:00 Eastern, Dinosaur 13, absolutely fascinating film about the story of Sue. Deb.

FEYERICK: All right. The highs and lows of archeology, Poppy Harlow, thank you so much.

HARLOW: Yeah.

FEYERICK: And be sure to tune in to the film, Dinosaur 13 tonight, 9:00.

We're now going to turn to the White House briefing. They're talking about the spending bill. They're also expected to talk about the CIA.