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At This Hour

"Architect" Defends CIA Interrogation Program; London Air Traffic System Restored; How Officers Can Break Cycle of Community Fear, Mistrust; Woman Cleared in Boyfriends Death; Do Dogs Go to Heaven?

Aired December 12, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He doesn't want to take responsibility for things he didn't do, kind of seeming to suggest that there's a lot he'd like to set the record straight on.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Whatever he did or didn't do, he got paid a lot for it. What's the justification for such a big contract, more than $80 million, to his firm?

FRATES: Well, that's exactly what the Senate wanted to know and didn't get answers on in the report. But the CIA when they responded to that report they said, look, we would have been derelict not to take these two guys up. We thought they had very special insights into the interrogation process, they had run a survival and evasion program in the U.S. Air Force and that it was their responsibility to employ these guys. The question of were they worth the money and how did they get $180 million contract and, of that, get paid $81 million, John, still really big question out there.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Chris, in a word or two, how would you describe him? You sat with him.

FRATES: He is -- it's almost Kafkaesque to have discussions with him because he can neither confirm nor deny a lot of the questions that we have but he still wants to talk and give his opinion. So he's a guy who's very opinionated about this report and its findings but then can't really speak too specifically to his involvement or defend himself personally.

BERMAN: He wants to state things, he doesn't want to answer things, which is always an interesting situation to be in as a journalist.

Chris Frates, terrific work. We really appreciate.

FRATES: Thank you.

PEREIRA: We want to turn back to breaking news about the airspace over London, a technical problem that had restricted air traffic over London. It's now been fixed. We're told it's been restored. We don't know what that problem was or what caused it but we do know that it affected five airports, including Heathrow, that make London this major hub of travel worldwide.

BERMAN: Officials characterize this as a technical problem. They say it affected the Swanwick air traffic control center, a key station that handles and routes traffic through London, five airports there, thousands and thousands of travelers. And for a short time at least flights from London to North America were stopped we were told flights from North America to London were taking off but they were delayed.

PEREIRA: Either way, traffic delays have been already -- have already caused ripple effects that could last hours or perhaps even days. We know if you are scheduled to fly overseas through London, to London or expecting somebody from London or through London, check with your airline to see if plans have changed.

BERMAN: The airspace is restored, flights are going off. The ripple effects will remain but not as bad as it could have been.

Ahead @THISHOUR, huge demonstrations planned this weekend. Protesters are demanding a better relationship with police.

PEREIRA: I want to pick up the conversation we had at the beginning of the week, how can officers break the cycle of fear and mistrust in the black community?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Large demonstrations in New York, Washington, similar cities across the nation. Protesters are demanding an end to alleged police brutality and racism.

BERMAN: The demonstrations follow the controversial deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner at the hands of police and the system that did not indict the officers involved. Tomorrow will cap what organizers have called a Week of Outrage.

Yesterday, Asian, Hispanic and African-American congressional staffers walked off their jobs and gathered on the steps of the capital to show support for Brown's and Garner's family. In Staten Island, his daughter, lying on the spot where her father died in July.

PEREIRA: We want to talk to civil rights attorney and co-director of the Advancement Project, Connie Rice.

We had you with us earlier this week, Connie. A pleasure to have you back with us. We promise we'd continue our conversation. I have read after your work in Los Angeles where you were actively involved in sort of healing some of the ills between the black and brown communities and law enforcement. You said cops need to realize they are not in the arrest business, they are in the trust business. Help us understand that. And where do we do go in terms of rebuilding that trust when it's broken?

CONNIE RICE CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY & CO-DIRECTOR, ADVANCEMENT PROJECT: Excellent, excellent points, Michaela. I am -- I've been in the business of creating trust between poor black and poor Brown communities in the LAPD. That's what I've been doing for the last 15 years with Chief Bratton and Chief Beck and Chief Green and a whole lunch of cops, as well as community activists, clergy. I mean, it takes a village to create this kind of trust. And when I say we're in the trust business, I mean little black boys and little brown boys in Watts should look at the cops and think, "They're my friend and they protect me." Instead of what we have now which is, "They're going to kill me." And similarly, cops should look at the black community and think, "You know what, If I got shot and was bleeding out in an alley, those folks would pick up the phone and make sure I gotten an ambulance." So we're talking about trust. And you build it relationship by relationship. You build it project by project. You have to have a very specific focus on creating that relationship.

BERMAN: It's interesting, when you watch and listen to these demonstrations, there's a lot of talk, a lot of people calling for specific changes in the police community. And you say this is not a one-way street. There needs to be focus on how both sides, if there are sides in this, act and look at each other. I'm not suggesting we blame the so-called victims here, the victims who are --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: But there's work to be done on both sides, right.

BERMAN: But what do you want to see in these communities? What should they do differently going forward?

RICE: The cops have to do the heavy lifting here, there's no doubt about that. They have to change how they think. They have to change how they think about the community, how they think about little black boys. They have the big heavy lifting here to do. But the community also has to change. They have to be willing to forget that the cops killed their son or shot their brother and they have to be able to put that aside -- very hard to do -- put that aside and say, "You know what, I'm going to sit down and talk to these cops and try and make them understand what we face and try to work with them to keep this community safe.

PEREIRA: It was a very powerful image we saw on the Hill yesterday when we saw members of -- black congressional members, leaders, lawmakers, Asian, Latino congressional staffers as well there. When you see that kind of statement at a significant place, our nation's center, if you will, what do you think? Is this a good sight to behold? Do you think this symbol needs more behind it? I'm curious what your thoughts are.

RICE: I'm very happy to see the multiracial crowds doing the die-ins, doing the marches, doing the sit-ins. You need these demonstrations to keep focus on this issue and, more importantly, as an outlet for the community's rage. So these are very important demonstrations and I fully support them as long as they're peaceful. So to have whites, Asians, Latinos and African-Americans and Native American, I would note, out there together is very, very -- that's an advance. You didn't see that in the marches before this so that's a welcomed advance.

BERMAN: You spoke of some of the changes that started in Los Angeles or discussions that can be had in cities across America. I'm wondering what you think should be done at higher levels than that. Should the attorney general, Eric Holder, who has a few more months in office, what should he be doing? He's going city to city having discussions. What should the president do? What specific action would you like to see them take?

RICE: Well, also below that, at the county level. I think that the county grand juries have failed across the board here, especially the Garner case. So the feds are doing what they're supposed to do, which is an in-depth investigation to determine are there grounds for civil rights violations? Are there grounds for criminal civil rights indictments and try to determine whether the federal level of government -- which doesn't need that relationship with the local police as badly -- and can they take a clearer eye to put on this problem and say should these cops be prosecuted? Now in the Garner case, I think it's clear they should be. The other cases, I would have to take a look at the facts more closely. Michaela and John, it's so important. You remenber with the Rodney King incident, when the local folks refused to find the cops guilty, the feds came in and did a federal prosecution and did find some of the officers liable for that beating and a violation of Rodney King's civil rights. So this is a very, very important outlet for us. And I think that they're doing the right thing. I think the federal government is doing the right action for the right problem.

PEREIRA: Connie Rice, thanks for making time for us on this Friday and joining us @THISHOUR. We appreciate the thoughtful conversation.

RICE: You're more than welcome.

BERMAN: We have some breaking news out of Cleveland right now, Cuyahoga County right there. The death of Tamir Rice, the 12-year-old boy fatally shot by Cleveland police after he had an air gun, a pellet gun, and it was mistaken for a real firearm, that death has been ruled a homicide according to the Cuyahoga County medical examiner's office. The cause of death is a gunshot wound of the torso with injuries of major vessels and pelvis. Now it's interesting, it was ruled a homicide, but so was Eric Garner's death. That means the action of one person led to the death of another. The legal decision will be, was it a justifiable homicide? And that's where all the controversy does ultimately end up.

PEREIRA: We should point out, Anderson Cooper is going to sit down with the families of Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner and Tamir Rice. You can see that interview tonight, "A.C. 360," 8:00 eastern, right here on CNN.

We'll take a short break. Ahead, though, a Texas court clears a young woman's name, ruling that G.M.'s defective ignition switch is to blame for her boyfriend's death some 10 years ago.

BERMAN: And this is news that will have an impact on earth and beyond. We're talking about canine afterlife. New hope raised for the existence of such a thing. The earth-shattered and heavenly- shattered statements by Pope Francis coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: We have an unbelievable story. A young woman lived for 10 years with incredible guilt, guilt about her role in a terrible accident that killed her boyfriend. A court now says it wasn't her fault at all. One company that could have spoken up about it, though, kept quiet, General Motors.

Poppy Harlow brings us Candice Anderson's story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you feel free now?

CANDICE ANDERSON, WAS BLAMED FOR BOYFRIEND'S DEATH: I do. I feel like a big weight has been lifted off me. I can walk taller.

HARLOW (voice-over): After a decade of agony, Candice Anderson is finally free.

(on camera): People in this town called you a murder for a decade.

ANDERSON: Uh-huh. It's a hard thing to get past.

HARLOW (voice-over): Free from living a nightmare.

ANDERSON: I feel like I was robbed from a part of my life. 10 years is a decade. It's a long time. I feel robbed of part of my youth where things were supposed to be fun and for making memories, having a good friend to share it with.

HARLOW: It started with a fatal car crash. Candice was behind the wheel when her brand-new Saturn Ion slammed into a tree in this east Texas country road in 2004.

ANDERSON: This one right here.

HARLOW (on camera): This is the tree you hit?

ANDERSON: Uh-huh.

HARLOW (voice-over): Her boyfriend, Michael Erickson, was in the passenger's seat. He was Candice's first love.

ANDERSON: I was through the windshield on the hood of the car and then his face was face-down in my lap.

HARLOW (voice-over): The father of two young girls, Michael, was instantly killed. Candice still bears the scars of that day, her liver lacerated, nearly all of her ribs broken.

(on camera): Do you ever have moments when you think why did I survive?

ANDERSON: Oh, yeah, I felt that way the whole 10 years.

HARLOW (voice-over): The police report says neither Candace nor Michael was wearing a seat belt. The airbags did not deploy. After the crash, Xanax was found in Candice's system. She was not prescribed the drug but says she took one pill the night before. ANDERSON: Do I think I was intoxicated that day? No, I wasn't

intoxicated.

HARLOW: But she was indicted on a felony charge of intoxication manslaughter. She pleaded guilty to criminally negligent homicide and was sentenced to five years probation and fined. She lived each day as a felon.

(on camera): You could have gone to jail for 20 years.

ANDERSON: I think about that all the time. I really do.

HARLOW (voice-over): But there is now proof that for a decade, General Motors knew about a deadly defect in Candice's car and millions more but kept it a secret. Faulty ignition switches, causing the engine to stop suddenly while driving, disabling the airbags. And as Candice was prosecuted, G.M. did nothing to help her. In fact, in 2007, the same year Candice pleaded guilty, G.M. did their own internal investigation of her crash, calling it unusual and noted the airbags should have deployed.

ANDERSON: I'm pulling for my justice. I want vindication. I them to say -- you know, I want people to know that it was the car and it wasn't me.

HARLOW (on camera): In this courthouse, the same one where she pleaded guilty to criminal negligent homicide, Candice Anderson finally got her justice. The judge placing the blame squarely on General Motors.

(voice-over): Writing in the court opinion, "While Miss Anderson pled guilty to a crime for which she was not at fault, G.M. had evidence that would have demonstrated her actual innocence and identified the true culprit and cause of the accident, General Motors."

Candice's conviction overturned, she is now acquitted of any fault in the crash that killed Michael.

(on camera): What would Michael say?

ANDERSON: I pictured him rooting us in the courtroom and, you know, and -- it's a good feeling to think that he's, you know, had a lot to do with this.

HARLOW (voice-over): G.M. would not comment on the judge's opinion, but for the first time in this letter to Candice's attorney, General Motors admits it may be to blame, writing, "G.M. has determined that the crash involving Miss Anderson is one in which the recall condition may have caused or contributed to the frontal airbag non-deployment in the accident."

(on camera): Is it enough?

ANDERSON: No, I don't think it's enough. I think they should have been there that day to support me, to put in some words before the judge, also. I really do. HARLOW: Have you directly, Candice, heard from General Motors?

ANDERSON: Never.

HARLOW: Still?

ANDERSON: And at this point, I don't think I ever will.

HARLOW (voice-over): So why didn't G.M. reach out to Candice Anderson when it investigated her crash years ago? We asked G.M.'s CEO Mary Barra.

(on camera): Why didn't G.M. every reach out to her?

MARY BARRA, CEO, GENERAL MOTORS: As we look at the Lucas (ph) report documents, there were opportunities where, in this specific situation, a series of mistakes were made over a long period of time and that's why we've taken the extraordinary steps.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Looking back, do you think someone at G.M., when they saw this happen and there was an internal investigation, reached out to Candice Anderson?

BARRA: Again, Poppy, as we look across this, we have -- making the right changes that we need to make, we're working to make sure we're the industry leaders in safety as we move forward and we've taken steps to do the right thing.

HARLOW (voice-over): G.M. is fixing its defective cars and has apologized to victims and its families.

BARRA (voice-over): I am deeply sorry.

HARLOW (on camera): When you come back to the crash site now, being vindicated, knowing this wasn't your fault, what do you think?

ANDERSON: The guilt is definitely lifted. But what happened, the tragedy, of course, is still there. The pain is still real.

HARLOW: And nothing will bring Michael back. For the past 10 years, Michael's mother, Rhonda, couldn't bring herself to lay a headstone for her son. Now, she finally has.

RHONDA ERICKSON, MOTHER OF MICHAEL: It was like the story of David and Goliath where we took a slingshot and threw a rock at a giant and we won. That's how I felt. That it was all worth it. And we weren't scared. And we stood up and we got what we wanted.

HARLOW (on camera): Vindication?

ERICKSON: Right.

HARLOW (voice-over): Their fight may be over, but the Department of Justice investigation into General Motors continues. ANDERSON: There's someone within General Motors that should be held

responsible.

HARLOW (on camera): Are you saying that you think individuals at General Motors should stand trial?

ANDERSON: Yeah, I do. They didn't have a problem sitting by while I was charged, convicted.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: It's an unbelievable story.

PEREIRA: Wow.

BERMAN: And the first question I asked Poppy is, is Candice going to sue? Will she sue G.M.? The answer is no, she can't. Why? She's accepting money from the Victim Compensation Fund. She needs the money. She needs to get on with her life. There's a lot she wants to do. She can't wait for a lawsuit. But it does means is she won't get justice that way.

PEREIRA: Imagine the weight lifted off of her. Now she can simply grieve.

Ahead @THISHOUR, Pope Francis pushing the envelope. He's done this before. This time, it's raising different eyebrows.

BERMAN: It's going to change the life of your dog and the afterlife, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where am I?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the great hall of judgment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judgment!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, not to worry, Charlie. You'll go to head. All dogs go to heaven.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: I think we've all believe all dogs go to heaven. Now, Pope Francis has spoken to a young boy who is mourning the loss of his dog that had died that, quote, "paradise is open to all creatures." Although, Catholic theology says animals have no souls and dogs don't go to heaven.

BERMAN: I want to bring in our religion commentator, Father Edward Beck.

Father, I'm not Catholic. I was unaware that there was some block on the route to heaven for dogs.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Explain to me what the rule was or what the belief was and what the pope has changed.

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR & HOST, THE SUNDAY MASS: Well, nothing has changed, John. And I'd love to believe that I'm going to see my pointer beagle, Butch, again one day. I love that dog.

But I think it's all what you understand heaven and even love to mean. Our understanding of heaven, the Catholic and Christian community's understanding, is that love doesn't die, that the circle of love becomes complete when you're united with God, that God calls all creation to himself. And, of course, the animal kingdom is part of that creation. And you can say that animals have souls in the sense that they are living. Actually, John Paul II said that animals have souls. But is it the same kind of soul that a human being has? Not exactly. Animals don't make moral choices. Do you think animals love? I'm not sure they love in the same way we do.

PEREIRA: Well, they certainly make choices about whether or not to eat my favorite shoe, I'll tell you that.

(LAUGHTER)

It's interesting because we know that Pope Francis took his name from St. Francis of Assisi, the patron saint of animals. No?

BECK: Yes. That's very true. And animals are an important part of our life. And anything that we love and, in some way, loves us, can certainly be a part of heaven. Francis said all creatures created by God will share eternity. But exactly what that means -- we tend to speak about heaven in a language from a human perspective, using human terms, clouds, angels, harps. Of course, none of that exists. But we do believe there will be a conscious unification with those whom we have loved. Animals are part of our love life, if we will, albeit in a different way. So I guess what Francis is trying to say is that love will be reunited again and we will know it in some way.

BERMAN: Well, we're rooting for you and that beagle of yours.

Father Edward Beck, it's great to have you with us. Really appreciate it.

PEREIRA: Have a great weekend, Father Beck. Thank you for joining us @THISHOUR.

BECK: Thank you, too.

PEREIRA: I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman.

"LEGAL VIEW" today with Pamela Brown starts right now.